Oracle To Drop Java Browser Plugin In JDK 9 (softpedia.com)

An anonymous reader writes: After Mozilla said in October that it would stop supporting Firefox plugins on the older NPAPI technology, Oracle had no choice now but to announce the deprecation of the Java browser plugin starting with the release of the JDK version 9, which is set for release in March 2017, and developers are urged to start using the Java Web Start pluginless technology instead. Security issues also had a big part in Java's demise.

Comments

GOOD

[Anonymous Coward]

Fuck Java. I hated it was a requirement for my networking classes and I hate what it has done to the industry in terms of advertising/abuse.

Re:GOOD

[Dcnjoe60]

Fuck Java. I hated it was a requirement for my networking classes and I hate what it has done to the industry in terms of advertising/abuse.

Java didn't do any of that. People did. And if it wasn't Java, they would have used something else. Java, is just a tool that people use to accomplish a goal.

Re:GOOD

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, Java allows them to write bloatware that can bring down quad-core machines to a crawl.

Re:GOOD

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

There is nothing about 'java' the language that did that; but it is very hard to deny that vulnerabilities in the implementation of support for embedded java applets have been a huge source of desktop infections. Adobe might be slightly worse; but that's damning by very faint praise.

I'll leave arguing about the merits of the language and the JVM to the experts; but applet support has, quite simply, been painfully unsuitable for use on anything except fully trusted, ideally internal, material more or less forever, and neither Sun nor Oracle ever got it up to snuff for use in a mostly-untrusted web browsing environment.

Re:GOOD

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows, Office, Adobe products, Autodesk Products, Linux, freebsd, apache, etc.... Had and still Have vulnerabilities and yet we don't blame the c/c++ languages. Why blame Java?

Re:GOOD

[freak0fnature]

So does every other language...what's your point?

Re:GOOD

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, Java allows them to write bloatware that can bring down quad-core machines to a crawl.

I didn't know Firefox was written in Java.

Wow.

Learn something new every day.

Re:GOOD

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not Java's fault that you're stupid.

Re: GOOD

[Z00L00K]

Compared to competition FireÃfox is lean today.

Re: GOOD

[Z00L00K]

every plugin has a possible hole, no matter which one it is.

Re:GOOD

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, in part because the java programs are very often tied to a specific version of java.

Network mgmt tools from Cisco et al still are stuck at v1.6 or v1.7, sometimes down to a specific update or can't go beyond update X.

c/c++ programs don't require a specific version *to run*.

That's the real stupidity of java.

Re:GOOD

[Junta]

I don't like Java for other reasons, but the performance of the runtime is actually not out of whack compared to other managed runtimes.

Many Java developers however put out poor performing code. They would do things terribly no matter the language.

Re:GOOD

[Anonymous Coward]

it's stupid programmers, if you code to the spec apps written for 1.4 will run just fine on 1.8. If you cut corner and use undocumented api, your users will eventually suffer. I use to develop client side java application and I used to test on SUN and IBM JRE to actively avoid those kind of problems, but coding to the spec made it mostly unnecessary, it only enhanced portability between different L&F since IBM JRE Swing implementation is a good common lowest denominator

Re:GOOD

[Junta]

Actually, they do. libstdc++ may have several versions living side by side. Java is more of a pain because the runtime strategy wasn't really designed to be versioned the same way.

The problem with Java (and activex, and flash) is that the initial design point is to empower code that executes, but the code is executed from remote sites without any vetting. The usage model is a person perusing sites as if they were passively reading documents ends up incidentally executing things that are allowed to do much more intrusive things. For an executable, if you download it and execute it knowingly, you largely get the blame for falling for a trojan and the language is not blamed. It's the context where things can run that is a challenge.

Re:GOOD

[Kagato]

To a certain extend the JVM does attempt to detect poorly writing code and will attempt to optimize the opcode at runtime. But there's only so much it can do.

Even Microsoft has a pretty decent VM for .Net, but because the op codes change so much version to version the JVM has proven to be far more useful for other languages (JRuby, Jython, Scala, Closure, etc.)

Re:GOOD

[Junta]

Right, though the same can be said of all runtimes that it tries to optimize, but there's only so much it can do. Particularly since a lot of slowness I see involves being stupid about network usage, and the runtime has no way of knowing anything that could help that (it has no idea whether the data would be static, that the target has another set of vocabulary that's faster, that another access pattern would work, etc).

Re:GOOD

[GuB-42]

Unfortunately for you (or any Java hater), Java as a programming language is as healthy as ever, with Java devs being on high demand despite being commonly taught in school. Android is probably no stranger to its renewed success.
If you are talking about Java applets (that's what the browser plugin is for), it only had limited success : Flash and then JavaScript essentially killed it. As for advertising/abuse, I don't remember it being that bad, at least compared to Flash. It did have a lot of vulnerabilities though but it was mostly because of sloppy coding rather than a fundamentally broken design.

Re:GOOD

[naris]

I hate what it has done to the industry in terms of advertising/abuse.

Yeeeaahhh Riiight. JAVA is the reason for all the advertising/abuse -- Flash and/or Javascript had no part in that.

Re: GOOD

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think you can dynamically link against two different versions of libstdc++, you have to run in separate processes. Java allows the same: run as many JVMs next to each other as you want, load whatever libraries in each.

Parent is either flat-out wrong or has a really bad analogy.

Re:GOOD

[luis_a_espinal]

So does every other language...what's your point?

He is having problems with his homework. You know, OP is just suffering from "little rebel without a cause with zero exposure outside the classroom" syndrome.

Re: GOOD

[NatasRevol]

Well, since Java often deletes the old versions by default (for security reasons) when updating, so it's default behavior breaks a lot of shit.

Re:GOOD

[umghhh]

I have to agree. I have seen so many people coming to us straight from university that could code java and would not accept that they need to know anything about basics like memory management for instance - I mean we have gc so why should we bother, right? What I noticed over the years is that real basic coding tool that is always very helpful and without which you cannot code and design stuff properly is brains. Refusal to use it usually leads to situation where any programming language is bad for the task.

Re:GOOD

[Tharkkun]

There is nothing about 'java' the language that did that; but it is very hard to deny that vulnerabilities in the implementation of support for embedded java applets have been a huge source of desktop infections. Adobe might be slightly worse; but that's damning by very faint praise. I'll leave arguing about the merits of the language and the JVM to the experts; but applet support has, quite simply, been painfully unsuitable for use on anything except fully trusted, ideally internal, material more or less forever, and neither Sun nor Oracle ever got it up to snuff for use in a mostly-untrusted web browsing environment.

Oracle inherited it and has been scrambling ever since to patch vulnerabilities. Every release contains dozens of fixes.

Re: GOOD

[farble1670]

Well, since Java often deletes the old versions by default (for security reasons) when updating, so it's default behavior breaks a lot of shit.

what software do you install that keeps around every previous version of the software and allows you to switch between them?
i know, if you don't want to update, don't update? i know, kind of crazy thinking though.

Re: GOOD

[Anonymous Coward]

It's usage share certainly got pretty lean compared to the competition, it is continuing its steady decline with no signs of changing.

Re:GOOD

[BarbaraHudson]

Android does not run Java code. Please look up "cross-compiler" at your convenience.

Re:GOOD

[Icegryphon]

I like you. JavaScript is the worst offender ever.

Re: GOOD

[KGIII]

Pretty much this. I'd like to point out, embarrassing though it might be, that I can code badly in a few languages. Worse, I plan on brushing up (and am doing so) my skills and learning a couple of new languages. I'll then give that code away (a handful of people will use it, ever) and hate me for it.

No, I can code poorly with any tools you give me. In fact, I probably will.

There's problems with everything... There are security issues in everything. There will be bugs so long as we have humans writing software. When we have machines writing software, there will still be bugs. Why? Well, because it will have been a human that wrote that machine's code to begin with. With bugs come security issues. Without best practices come security issues. Without good education come security issues.

Good, bug-free, and secure start in the chair and before a line of code is written. No, I don't know this because of my own individual performance. I know this because I hired good, professional, programmers to do things that I could not. They were not only good but they were instructional - if you wanted to put the effort into learning.

I am reminded of a grandpa story... I'll try to make it brief.

We had a secretary who was pretty bright but she wanted to change jobs and do something more interesting. We didn't need anyone in a new job that she was suited for. Well, she decided she was going to be a programmer. So, probably mostly because she was cute and single, she was "allowed" to spend time with the programmers. She started to learn, started to practice, and damned if she wasn't writing code in a little while.

Oh, it gets a little better... She eventually learned to code quite well, just from asking good question - this is about the bit about the programmers being instructional - if you wanted to put the effort in. She actually turned out to be pretty good. We sent her to a few classes, she changed jobs, and actually ended up in QA but our QA was a little different in that they usually tried to fix the bugs themselves. We didn't actually have anyone who had the job title of QA. We just had people who filled that role because that's what they did best and were happiest doing. They largely organized themselves.

At any rate, I'll avoid the novella but they really did teach you a lot if you wanted to learn. Yes, I wrote the code base. Yes, I maintained that code and added to that code for years. It was badly written C but it worked. It wasn't for public consumption or anything so it was okay. Still, things grew and I handed off the code and it was eventually all reworked in C++. I was not ever a good programmer but I learned a lot of good things - many forgotten, and (more importantly) I learned to ask good questions. Well, I think they're good. They must be? I get the answers that I need.

Re: GOOD

[Anonymous Coward]

M$ .NET framework.

Re: GOOD

[NatasRevol]

You might want to try reading the comment I was replying to.

Default applies updates, default deletes old versions, critical software relying on old version gets broken.

All 3 are bad, all 3 are default.

Re: GOOD

[farble1670]

Default applies updates

I've never had the Java installer auto-update without user confirmation. I don't even think that's possible, but even if it is, it's most definitely not the default behavior. Regardless, if you have something like that configured on a mission-critical system, I'd suggest turning it off. That's true for all software on such a system, not only Java.

Re: GOOD

[Anonymous Coward]

So you like efficiency. Then why on earth are you bitching about apk telling users of less efficient easily blocked browser addons about hosts that do more using far less resources for? I think I know why. You work for Mozilla. Everyone knows they're pushing push tech to advertise more. You hate hosts because they're not clarityray blockable like browser addons are. It's why eich was fired from mozilla. He wasn't with that advertiser push program.

Re:GOOD

[Anonymous Coward]

XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.

You stole your sig from me. I demand $1 iimmediately, preferably in Bitcoin: 16y3bumxSH6sn95jHF2a1LTf9WedZ52QEW

Re: GOOD

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, people did but that doesn't stop people from hating it because it can be difficult to debug the reason it crashes the jvm, fills up heap, etc.

I once had to support porely designed code, created by a "Lead" Java Developer, that slurped over one million records including all columns from the database just to get an article count via the code to display on each and every Web page request.

My complaints about the alerts we were getting fell of deaf ears until several months later when the hosting provider called stating our database servers were affecting shared storage performance to the extreme. Come to find out that indexes didn't exist either causing the code to take over 2 weeks to complete magnified by every page request.

Java's demise

[Anonymous Coward]

The plugin is in demise. Java is going strong. FUD.

Well, we will be using JRE 8 for a while then

[jfdavis668]

We have way to many systems dependent on it. Most of our big applications are JSP based, but we have quite a few java applications browser and even desktop based.

Re:Well, we will be using JRE 8 for a while then

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure sucks you made a bad tech bet, huh?

Re:Well, we will be using JRE 8 for a while then

[Lunix Nutcase]

The malware authors will surely love your organizationi for keeping the web plugin around for them to exploit. Now they won't even have to worry about security bugs being patched.

Re:Well, we will be using JRE 8 for a while then

[Anonymous Coward]

good thing you can still run them with java web start.

Re:Well, we will be using JRE 8 for a while then

[robmv]

Exactly, someone who need this for legacy reasons should write a browser extension that replace the applet from the HTML and replace it with a JNLP application link.

Re:Well, we will be using JRE 8 for a while then

[Sique]

Does not necessarily work that way. I have some systems to support whose administration website uses Java 1.4 (luckily the last of the Java 1.3 ones was scrapped lately). So I have to keep some VMs ready if I have to do something there because no one will ever invest in updating the management frontend. Those machines were deployed somewhen in the 1990ies, and they are still humming along, no immediate pressure for the actual operator of them to replace them with anything more recent, as none of the newer features is important to him.

Re:Well, we will be using JRE 8 for a while then

[robmv]

Your problem then is not the deprecation of the plugin, your applications will not run either with today browsers and Java 8. I am talking about people using current Java and the plugin. An extension can generate a JNLP file with the applet-desc element and make your applet run outside the browser. Hey current plugin allows you to use JNLP already to describe the applet and when running move the applet outside the browser window, on a different process.

If the applet is interacting with the HTML document, there you are out of luck, but many applets used to manage devices, are just a full page applet, and many of them can run as a JNLP applet.

Re: Well, we will be using JRE 8 for a while then

[Anonymous Coward]

Enjoy keeping all your users on unpatched insecure browser versions. I hope your spineless IT dept gets cleaned out by better management

Re:Well, we will be using JRE 8 for a while then

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

A bad tech bet? Java as a web technology has lasted in the region of two decades. There are Java applets that academics wrote as quick illustrations of some concept from their lecture course in the 1990s that are still just as valid and still work just as well today, except for the browser guys and Oracle deciding applets should die. Java has its problems, but it has been one of the most stable and reliable technologies in the history of computing.

If you want to talk about bad tech bets, consider that if a trendy JS framework is still in serious development after two years it's doing well. For some newer features, if all the main browsers can even manage to provide a stable and compatible implementation for two months (long enough for all the evergreen ones to update once or twice) it's a pleasant surprise.

Re:Well, we will be using JRE 8 for a while then

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

Your fear-mongering is several years of out date. Java applets have had multiple levels of click-to-play style protection for a long time. Malware authors are having much more success targeting things like Android users these days.

Re:Well, we will be using JRE 8 for a while then

[myowntrueself]

We have way to many systems dependent on it. Most of our big applications are JSP based, but we have quite a few java applications browser and even desktop based.

There are just so many systems out there that depend on Java, many of which are embedded in hardware. This was a bit short sighted of the hardware vendors.

Re: Well, we will be using JRE 8 for a while then

[Anonymous Coward]

I also hope all of those spineless "IT Admins" get fired for being the useless POS they so strive to be.

Re:Well, we will be using JRE 8 for a while then

[subanark]

JSP - No change
Desktop - No change
Browser - Easy fix

If you really have applet still in use today, you can convert them to Web Start without touching the binary. All you need to do is update your web page and make a jnlp file that points to where the applet is and any configuration that was originally on the web page itself.

There aren't many problems,here are the edge cases I can see:
1. Packaged sites - You want to support your applet with ads (who does this with Java anymore?)
2. Javascript interop.
3. Cross applet communication (aside from a nasty security bug 12 years ago, who does this)

Re:Well, we will be using JRE 8 for a while then

[Junta]

I have seem some really insidious embedding of java into a page. It's not always 'here's a big div like thing with a java running in it'. One that infuriated me the most, a weird applet that's sole job was to *check* if you had java before enabling the html button to download a jnlp.

Re:Well, we will be using JRE 8 for a while then

[Anonymous Coward]

Eh, it is the old-style plugin architecture which is a problem. It is perfectly possible to have a new-style java plugin (but Oracle doesn't want to write it).

HOWEVER, the new-style plugin API is not going to allow the java code to do whatever it wants (e.g. access the filesystem, or open native sockets): it is heavily fenced.

Re:Well, we will be using JRE 8 for a while then

[Tablizer]

There are Java applets that academics wrote as quick illustrations of some concept from their lecture course in the 1990s that are still just as valid and still work just as well today

Odd, I found about 50% of such things don't work anymore. (And it feels risky to even try them.)

Anyhow, we need a new browser standard/paradigm that gives brower-based applications desktop-like behavior and natively supports common desktop idioms, such as scroll-bars, MDI, combo-boxes, grid editors, etc. so that one doesn't have to download an entire JS GUI library for each app.

Desktop GUI's idioms pretty much matured by the early 90's; it's not like a moving standard (ignoring certain stupid eye-candy fads). Web standards don't fit what app developers want to do and what users expect. The web standards are fairly good at brochure-ware, but suck for work-oriented applications and CRUD GUI's. Getting such GUI's to work and still work after 3 years should NOT be an arcane art. It's around 5 to 20 times the code it takes for an app in VB, Delphi, Paradox, PowerBuilder, etc., and flakier.

I'm tired of the crapped up web stack for apps. It's a resource drain and huge leap backward.

Re:Well, we will be using JRE 8 for a while then

[gmack]

And how do I update the web page on our IP KVM switch?

Re:Well, we will be using JRE 8 for a while then

[subanark]

Assuming that the java applet is the only thing you are interested in (as in it is not heavily integrated with the web page), you can use appletviewer. I don't think they will get rid of this as it is just a simple container for applets rather than interfacing with the browser. Took me an hour back in college to make one of those myself.

I think you can also put the jsp file that runs the applet on another server as long as it is on the same domain as your switch.

Re:Well, we will be using JRE 8 for a while then

[Lunix Nutcase]

Your fear-mongering is several years of out date. Java applets have had multiple levels of click-to-play style protection for a long time. Malware authors are having much more success targeting things like Android users these days.

Yeah and the click-to-play has been bypassed multiple times.

Re:Well, we will be using JRE 8 for a while then

[Anonymous Coward]

If you are talking about Avocent, then you should be welcoming any effort that will force those bone heads to re-write their app. I mean, for crying out freaking loud it is not that damn hard to properly convert coordinates between physical space and display space but man, do they sure seem capable of screwing it up.

Seriously though, just write a JNLP wrapper. A little kludgey to get it launched, but it does work.

Re:Well, we will be using JRE 8 for a while then

[adler187]

Headline is wrong (where am I? Oh, right Slashdot) and the summary is not fully correct. Here's what the blog post actually says:

"Oracle plans to deprecate the Java browser plugin in JDK 9. This technology will be removed from the Oracle JDK and JRE in a future Java SE release."

So you have until JRE 10 at the earliest when it's removed. JRE 9 isn't scheduled to come out until 2017 and JRE 10 sometime after that, so the more pressing problem will be finding a browser that supports NPAPI plugins to even run the current plugin: Chrome has already removed NPAPI support in Chrome 45, Firefox will be removing it by the end of 2016, Edge never had NPAPI support, and I have no idea about Apple's plans with Safari (my guess would be remove support in next release of OS X).

Gonna have to keep around an old version of Firefox or Chrome (portable version, perhaps?) to be able to use legacy applet based applications.

Re:Well, we will be using JRE 8 for a while then

[Phil Urich]

Not to mention that most office workers will reflexively click through each and every click-to-play popup.

Re:Well, we will be using JRE 8 for a while then

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

[citation needed]

I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but so far I haven't seen any report of malware that can successfully bypass the click-to-play limitations in both the browser and Java itself. There have been some ingenious attacks on parts of the infrastructure, such as the Pawn Storm issue a few months back, but as far as I'm aware even those required the browser itself to have Java enabled and only compromised the Java plugin's security architecture.

As an aside, if such malware did exist, it would self-evidently indicate a browser bug as well as a Java one. That would not be a good sign for a more secure future when browsers are taking on all the jobs plugins used to get.

Re:Well, we will be using JRE 8 for a while then

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

Odd, I found about 50% of such things don't work anymore.

A lot of things -- useful things -- provided as Java applets have stopped working lately as the browsers and Oracle itself have increasingly locked down what plugins can do and how they are integrated. There have been ever-increasing numbers of scary warnings about things like who signed what and ever more hoops to jump through just to publish or run an applet. The thing is, those are almost 100% artificial barriers put there by Oracle, Apple, Google, Mozilla, and friends. The underlying Java code that actually made the applet go in each case would probably still work fine today if the artificial barriers were removed again.

I agree about the current state of web app development, but unfortunately there are few organisations with enough influence to significantly affect the course of the industry, and for now their interests seem more aligned with the status quo than radical change. There are some interesting ideas around, web assembly for example, that might open up some more radical options in the future, but then there are always new ideas in the background in web development and all too often they don't achieve the critical mass of interest and support to become established. I guess time will tell.

Not required by most

[Anonymous Coward]

I uninstalled Java for a year or two, but was forced to reinstall it when working on my CCNA. It is amazing how horrible Cisco's software is.

Re:Not required by most

[Junta]

It is amazing how horrible enterprise software is.

Fixed that for you. I'm eternally amazed how terrible all the 'enterprise' software vendors do at making software, Cisco included.

What Happened to Slashdot?

[Anonymous Coward]

I've never seen so many articles with so few comments. I haven't been around in a few years and cannot remember my password, and man has this place taken a dive. I mean it used to be even the dumb articles got a couple hundred comments. Now I see several consecutive articles with under 100. This is sad like losing a loved one.

Re: What Happened to Slashdot?

[Anonymous Coward]

Beta killed it

I am not talking about the Tower of God character

Re: What Happened to Slashdot?

[Anonymous Coward]

No worries, my friend! I'm sure sure some Microsoft bashing click bait will be posted soon to drive up comment counts.

The classics never die!

Re:What Happened to Slashdot?

[halivar]

This thread isn't about politics, climate change, foreign relations, or women in STEM.

Re:What Happened to Slashdot?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not only comments, but submitted articles as well. Usually I would have stuff to vote in the morning. Now it's just 3-4 new submissions since I went to sleep.

Re: What Happened to Slashdot?

[Longjmp]

What beta? It's still there? I've seen it twice or so, but not for a very long time.
Maybe related to the fact that I appended "?nobeta=1" to the address when browsing AC ;)

Re:What Happened to Slashdot?

[Anonymous Coward]

What happened is that we are all like you. We stopped visiting for a while and then we all forgot our passwords. Darn...

Re:What Happened to Slashdot?

[Anonymous Coward]

And yet it was the dog that was walking funny this morning.

Re: What Happened to Slashdot?

[menkhaura]

Systemd bashing generates more heat these days than good ole MICRO$~1 bashing.

Re:What Happened to Slashdot?

[shoor]

I've been reading slashdot for quite awhile (notice "cough cough" my 5 digit Id, and I was an AC for awhile before I signed up.)
The changes in slashdot are to some extent part of changes in the internet itself. More people are interacting now, and younger people, certain tropes or memes or whatever have gotten established, and in some cases become old hat and shrunk away.
Things change, period. I'm nostalgic for the hey day of Usenet, the late 80s. But if I went back and looked at old usenet posts in google groups I'd probably be underwhelmed, partly because the topics from then are dated (flame wars in rec.audio over tubes vs solid state or digital vs analog), or otherwise thrashed over so often that everything got said thrice over. Part of it would be that I've changed too. If I went back and looked at an archive of early slashdot posts (is such a thing possible?) I'd probably get the same feeling of being underwhelmed that I do with usenet. (But slashdot hasn't degraded nearly as much as Usenet has. In fact, I'm not sure I'd say it's degraded much at all, just changed.)

Re:What Happened to Slashdot?

[KGIII]

So your mom really is a bitch? I thought you were kidding when you said that!

I kid... I just could not resist. Alas, I don't do the post as AC thing without identifying myself so I might as well post this as me and logged in.

Re:What Happened to Slashdot?

[KGIII]

It's possible, it's just not that easy. You can find an old article, search for old articles, and things like that. Then you can browse from there...

It's not pretty. I used to have a 4 or 5 digit UUI. I've no longer got access to that email and I'll be damned if I can remember either the user or the password - I've no hope at recovery. I do (I think) remember the email - I just don't have access to it any more.

At any rate, no... The last thing you probably want to do is go back and read old Slashdot threads. Oh, I've spent hours doing so but that's because I'm mentally retarded and hate myself. A funny one is the first mention of VMWare (and VMs) on Slashdot. Oh, they'll never catch on. They're a stupid idea. For that amount of money, I'll just reboot. The idea is impossible - it is technologically impossible to do such a thing. Oh, I think maybe three folks actually understood it, one read the article, and one guy had actually seen a demo.

But no, most were convinced that it was impossible, wouldn't ever work, was too expensive, couldn't work, would never catch on, was more effort than just rebooting, would not run Linux, could not run Linux, or similar...

You probably think that I'm kidding. You might even think that I'm exaggerating. I figured you might, so I armed myself with this link:
http://tech.slashdot.org/story...

I warn you, before you click that link, sit down and pour a stiff drink. Fortunately, that predates The Happening so the posts are all AC. Beware, it can also be very time consuming and you'll probably want to reply to some of the comments. You can't. Thankfully... I already never get anything done. I'd somehow get less than that done. I don't think we had moderation then? There was The Happening which meant a lot of lost data, at one point, so everyone's an AC and some of the old threads don't have proper threading or anything - even though they supported it. I didn't allow myself to open the link again. I've done that before. I've tried to forget it...

Go on... You know you're gonna click the link... Nobody ever listens to KGIII... But, seriously, do not click that link. I only include it because I'm obligated to. I'm half-tempted to go edit it out. *sighs* Good luck!

Demise?

[frostfreek1444]

Java's 'demise'? I think that's a bit of an exaggeration.

Re:Demise?

[Anonymous Coward]

We're dealing in futures here. Sun doomed Java through mismanagement, which caused it to get bought by Oracle, which proceeded to doom Java by, well, being Oracle. For a long time you could make big bucks as a COBOL programmer. That doesn't mean COBOL was going to be the language of the future. It just meant that it had been entrenched deep enough.

Re:Demise?

[Lunix Nutcase]

Yes, the browser plugin's demise. Or are you incapable of understanding the context of that phrase?

Re:Demise?

[Anonymous Coward]

Slashdot recently posted an article saying Java was the top language for growth in 2015.

Haters will slant.

Re:Demise?

[squiggleslash]

I'm always surprised by the number of people who don't know the difference, and think that because they interact at work occasionally with some crappy Java applet written in the early 2000s or late 1990s, that all enterprise Java (or even most of it) is entirely in the form of Java applets.

Re:Demise?

[Anonymous Coward]

The Java plugin is just a part of how Java is used around the world. The summary should have been more specific. You need English classes if you can't understand that.

Re:Demise?

[Anonymous Coward]

It didn't say the browser plugin's demise it said Java's demise, do you understand the difference?

Re:Demise?

[Lunix Nutcase]

And yet I was able to fully understand the context of the phrase. Seems I'm not the one needing remedial English lessons.

Re:Demise?

[Anonymous Coward]

Slashdot recently posted an article saying Java was the top language for growth in 2015.

Lost all credibility after the word recent. Guess you'll never be Oprah.

Re:Demise?

[gstoddart]

It didn't say the browser plugin's demise it said Java's demise, do you understand the difference?

In a sentence immediately following the statement that the browser plugin was going away ... do you understand the difference?

Java in the browser is all but dead. Java, outside of the browser, is not.

All I can say is good riddance to the piece of shit browser plugins, which have been terrible security risks for years now.

Re:Demise?

[Anonymous Coward]

http://developers.slashdot.org/story/16/01/07/1927241/java-named-top-programming-language-of-2015

Learn.

Re:Demise?

[KGIII]

More alarming (and no, you are not one - this is not an accusation) is the number of people who confuse Java and JavaScript. That happens on a regular basis - on THIS site. Me, a guy who programmed only because he had to (damned things didn't do anything useful unless you did) and absolutely hated computers - and *I* know the difference between the two. I also know what NPAPI is, sort of how it works - at least in theory how it actually works, that it's being killed off (or has been), and that the summary is poor and not entirely accurate - I also know that's not surprising or abnormal but I did not click the link (I am no heretic) - I just read the comments.

So, it is surprising. It's doubly surprising given the type of people who "should" be here and commenting. I've seen logged in, low digit, users do the Java/JavaScript thing. I know what a .jar is (I've even edited one, more than once, and then distributed the repaired version) and I sort of know how those work. Except, I don't actually program in Java, at all. I just know how to find and then can read code, find the syntax, and make edits - simple edits.

Of all the people here, I should (by all rights) be the least capable. Yet, I was giving someone instructions on how to get Chrome and then not update it (on Linux) earlier. I made it generic enough (and specific enough to aptitude if needed) that it should work for any package manager and most any distro. 'Snot like it's difficult - I know, 'cause I can figure it out. Well, I just figured out the process but I didn't actually try it. It should work as the update mechanism is the package manger for Linux installs of Chrome or Chromium.

Seriously, it's bad if I know more than you about tech. I'm a mathematician who programmed because I had to - I wasn't even good at it. In fact, I hired professionals, lots of professionals, to do it for me after a while. I hired them because I needed things done that I was incapable of doing. If I could have done it myself, I'd have not needed to hire them. It's not like I just hired random people for the goodness of the economy. No, I needed good people to do difficult things. I wanted the best and I wanted stuff (and people) that didn't really exist. So, I even paid them well. If it was easy, I'd have done it myself. They were paid well because they were essential to the business. If they were not essential then I'd have not hired them. I didn't hire inessential people. It was a business, not a charity. I'm a charitable person, I was not running a charitable business. This means I only hired the best I could find and paid them enough to ensure that they were happy, productive, and not going to leave. I'd hired them because they were the best that I could make or find. If I could have hired monkeys, I probably wouldn't have because it's unlikely that monkeys would have been essential to the growth and operation of my business. It's really not that complicated and people make things much more complicated than they need to.

It's BAD if I know more about a programming language than someone here. It's even worse if I know more about Linux. I specifically use Linux because I don't know a damned thing about it and want to understand it. Understanding how your tools work is essential if you want to be a skilled craftsman. Again, this is not complicated and doesn't need to be complicated. If you do not know how your tool works, at least at a decent - if not very deep, level then you should not be using it. If you can not keep your tools in good repair then you should not be using them. You should have others craft on your behalf - it's okay to not know how all tools operate. I, for instance, have no idea how to embroider. I'm okay with that. This does not need to be complicated.

So, I'm uncomplicated, unskilled (and knowingly so), unlearned, unassociated, unprofessional, and unaware. I admit these things freely. There's no way that I can know everything. It's really, really bad if I know more about it than you. Again, not an accusation but

Re:Demise?

[squiggleslash]

A sizable amount of what you perceive in the industry (and thus confusions/false assumptions/etc) is about your own experience. My guess is that we're actually quite segmented in IT, even if we don't want to admit it. I had the benefit of working for a company that started smallish, had some major corporate customers (whose sites we had to visit and whose IT systems we had to work with), and transitioned through mergers and acquisitions into the kind of anonymous megacorp where you really don't want to work long term because to the CEO you're just a drone to get rid of when the company cannot make its numbers that quarter.

Which, of course, is ultimately why I'm not working there any more. The company had a bad quarter. Still, a 15 year redundancy payment certainly helps soften the blow.

And until I moved out of that company, I had no idea that PHP - FUCKING PHP I HATE IT - was the #1 programming language in the entire universe. And that if you want a job, PHP is where it's at.

But, in any case, if you're jumping from LAMP stack company to LAMP stack company, as much of Slashdot's programmers are, I suspect you end up with a very weird view of what Java is used for, just as I did PHP. And .net for that reason (which really does seem to be used everywhere in all kinds of configurations.)

Re:Demise?

[Wolfrider]

> In fact, I hired professionals, lots of professionals, to do it for me after a while. I hired them because I needed things done that I was incapable of doing. If I could have done it myself, I'd have not needed to hire them. It's not like I just hired random people for the goodness of the economy. No, I needed good people to do difficult things. I wanted the best and I wanted stuff (and people) that didn't really exist. So, I even paid them well. If it was easy, I'd have done it myself. They were paid well because they were essential to the business. If they were not essential then I'd have not hired them. I didn't hire inessential people. It was a business, not a charity. I'm a charitable person, I was not running a charitable business. This means I only hired the best I could find and paid them enough to ensure that they were happy, productive, and not going to leave. I'd hired them because they were the best that I could make or find. If I could have hired monkeys, I probably wouldn't have because it's unlikely that monkeys would have been essential to the growth and operation of my business. It's really not that complicated and people make things much more complicated than they need to.

--This may be slightly off topic, but part of me wishes you were still in management and working at Morgan Stanley. They just announced they're "streamlining" (read:outsourcing) a bunch of middle-class jobs to save on costs:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/...

--I don't want to get into a rant here, but it's really time we stopped rewarding Big Business for mistreating/laying off people that are providing perfectly good customer service. There is a Biblical passage/principle (1 Tim 5) that basically states "The worker is worth (his) wages." This realigning/outsourcing has been happening regularly since at least the 1990s, and it's really insidiously decimating the middle-class earnings and buying power in the US.

--Would appreciate any thoughts you have on this; perfectly fine to switch discussion to email if you like.

Re:Demise?

[KGIII]

I've sat, for like four days, with this tab open and I want to reply but I keep running out of posts. ;-) So, I'll never get to a reply if I don't do it.

First, I'm not entirely sure what to say other than thank you for giving me the honor of valuing my opinion enough to specifically ask about it and for indicating that you wish I still was involved in the industry. I must tell you, that last part is a bit inviting at times. I've had a bunch of offers and I might actually take a short-term position where it's engaging. I don't really need the money so that's not actually a concern - I mention that because that's a topic that has come up.

Now... That said... I never hired a freelancer, I never hired a contractor. I did, from time to time, need to hire a consultant. There's some overlap potential but it was a flat-fee type of thing. I'm not a big fan of off-shoring nor am I a fan of outsourcing. However, I'm not a fan of spending money needlessly. Yet, if the country you wish to sell in does not have people who are able to afford your products then... But where does reasonable and responsible go? That path is a complete rabbit hole.

It has been tough to think of a good example. That's why this tab is still open after all this time. But, alas, I'm reminded of a conversation that I had on this very site - probably within the past year or two. This may get a bit complicated and I think it might end up longer than I'd like. I'm assuming you're okay with that. It's not like you're unfamiliar with my posting style or history. ;-)

I pointed out that I started programmers (they had to have some sort of expertise and domain knowledge or they weren't of much value and we had to train them - we were willing to do that, including formal education) used to get started at about $120k if they worked for me. They were expected to be good and all that and blah blah. You understand... I'm sure you understand.

The person I was responding to was quick to shout out that such was impossible and that nobody could do such a thing. I then showed them some numbers of what a traffic engineer made then and what they made now. E.g. A *senior* traffic engineer will make something around $80k/year. I should point out, the figure I gave for what I was paying them then is in real dollars, not adjusted dollars. My shop, one of the few, skewed those numbers enough to actually demonstrate this. In today's value, that's something like $160k/year - if you're curious. There's the added complexity of inferior work, greater numbers of shops offering services, and a bit of a market flood due to the government throwing 800 billion USD at the economic problem - specifically for "shovel ready" work that was highway related. (Now you know *why* my business was valued and sold for as much as it did.)

At any rate... They then asked how I could do it. They wanted to know how I could afford to do it. It's simple, really. I just shunted their salary off to the customer - usually your local municipality but later expanding to include services for private companies. Yes, I didn't actually give a shit how much I paid them (in that sense of the word) because I was just going to make the customer pay for it.

They were outraged! Outraged! They simply were pissed that I'd paid employees good money at the expense of the tax payer and, of course, tried to take things to the extreme level and refuse to accept that there's a difference between acceptable and extreme. No, my employees were not driving super cars to work on the tax payer dime. I bid or gave them a figure and they agreed to pay it and we had fancy contracts that stipulated things like times and penalties. But, more importantly, those people that I paid also turned around and paid taxes in those communities. That we increased efficiency, efficacy, and made things safer is, of course, an added bonus.

Well, that seemed to calm them down and they meandered off. The thing is, I'd probably pay about what I was paying then (judging by the nu

But ...

[vtcodger]

But,but,but ... Java runs in a sandbox and can't possibly be a security risk. I know that because experts told me so in the 1990s and experts are NEVER wrong.

Re:But ...

[robmv]

But but browser insecurity is because of plugins (Mozilla security bugs). I know that because browser vendors told me so in the 2000s and experts are NEVER wrong. :P

Note: bugs aren't the only problem here, it is your update process, and Oracle Java has an awful one, add to that that people do not update. OpenJDK does not suffer of this bad update process because distributions use their package manager to push updates.

Re:But ...

[Lunix Nutcase]

Even with timely updates, the browser plugin was just a security hole whack-a-mole game. Only Flash Player managed to be a more bug-ridden piece of shit.

Re:But ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you sure? Don't leave out the wonderful Acrobat Reader plugin ;)

Re:But ...

[cruff]

OpenJDK does not suffer of this bad update process because distributions use their package manager to push updates.

That assumes one allows unattended updating or a strict adherence to checking and installing the updates manually, or not being allowed to install updates because it can only be an approved configuration and the configuration change board never meets...

Re:But ...

[robmv]

true, but is is better that a fracking systray icon, for a normal user is just a system update

Re:But ...

[Lisandro]

Java had its share of bugs leading to zero-day attacks - language implementation bugs, not the browser. This one made a lot of noise a couple years ago.

Re:But ...

[blazer1024]

The worst thing, IMHO, is not just that it was a systray icon, but that at some point the updater would attempt to run immediately! I'd start doing something, and UAC pops up with a "Are you sure you want to run this?" My instinct is "WHAT IS THIS MALWARE?!?" and to click "Hell no"

Re:But ...

[AmiMoJo]

This is why all major browsers are abandoning Netscape plug-ins (or ActiveX in the case of MS Edge). Google's NaCl seems to be the best replacement. It runs bytecode plugins at near native speed, fully sandboxed.

Having said that, Javascript PDF viewers are more than adequate and the only other thing is Flash... So do we need binary plug-ins at all?

Re:But ...

[Anonymous Coward]

We don't "need" binary plugins. Chromium needs them to maintain a competitive advantage. Everyone else is moving on to WebAssembly, as well as standardized APIs for accessing hardware rather than black boxes that are a golden goose for people looking for security flaws. Even NaCl has had its share of vulnerabilities, sandboxed or not, and it is one of the riskiest components in Chromium.

Re:But ...

[Tablizer]

Java runs in a sandbox and can't possibly be a security risk [claimed] experts...in the 1990s

Good idea on paper, but the sandboxes leaked.

Re:But ...

[KGIII]

You know what you get in a sandbox? Cat shit and dirty kids.

I'm old enough to remember

[smittyoneeach]

I'm old enough to remember when Java was supposed to be "write once, run everywhere", and all that downloadable code was supposed to be sandboxed so the security hassles were fixed. Maybe I'm a little fuzzy here, but all that was supposed to arrive on a pony.

Re:I'm old enough to remember

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

The thing is, Java applets actually were write once, run anywhere in terms of browser portability, at least until the powers that be started making it difficult to run applets in a browser at all. The same was true of Flash.

In contrast, newer technologies that are supposed to provide functionality that plugins were good for, like HTML5 media elements and canvas/SVG/WebGL, have wildly different levels of feature support, implementation quality, and performance across browsers. I understand the reasons browser makers want to drop plugin support, but the alternative browser-native technologies still have a long way to go.

Re:I'm old enough to remember

[Lisandro]

Been stating this for a long time now. I've had (way) less issues writing portable code in Python and Perl than i did in Java.

Re:I'm old enough to remember

[Anonymous Coward]

I remember it too. Even took a Sun's first course on Java.

Not long after, it was clear that Java and the Java infrastructure is crap.

Re:I'm old enough to remember

[Marginal Coward]

Taking that a step further, IIRC, the ability to run a Java applet directly from within a browser was one of the original primary selling points of Java. In fact, I think it was originally promoted as an applet language that you can write full-fledged programs in, rather than as a full-fledged programming language that you can (could) write applets in.

Of course, times change. If the flying car ever becomes a big success, I predict that its primary selling point will eventually become that it can drive on roads, and its flying capability will be deprecated.

Re:I'm old enough to remember

[Anonymous Coward]

run anywhere in terms of browser portability

Yeah, as long as you never updated your version of java. What bullshit.

Hey Cisco mgr, don't update beyond Java v1.6u25! Ooops, you did, now it's never working again. Go rebuild a new VM to manage your cisco gear just because of a minor java update.

Re:I'm old enough to remember

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

That's probably just poor programming by whoever developed that particular applet, then. I've worked on projects that used applets for similar embedded UIs and they continued to work fine through many years of JRE updates.

Re:I'm old enough to remember

[AmiMoJo]

Java applets were written once and then failed to run for most people because they didn't have the plug-in, couldn't install it, couldn't update it, had Java disabled etc.

We should all be pushing for web apps to be Javascript and HTML. Forget even stuff like canvas and WebGL. We want apps that are function and display useful data in a readable manner, not flashy stuff, right?

Re:I'm old enough to remember

[smittyoneeach]

If the flying car ever becomes a big success, I predict that its primary selling point will eventually become that it can drive on roads, and its flying capability will be deprecated.

Watch how the drone fracas unfolds. TPTB may not be on about letting everyone have a flying machine.

Re: I'm old enough to remember

[Anonymous Coward]

Wait, there's a Puhon plug-in for web browsers? Awesome! Where can I get it?

Re: I'm old enough to remember

[Lisandro]

Wait, there's a Puhon plug-in for web browsers? Awesome! Where can I get it?

You can plug-in Python programs using IronPython and Silverlight. But there's no need for a plugin - there's surprisingly plenty of support for client-side Python: Brython, Skulpt, Pyjs et al.

Re:I'm old enough to remember

[NatasRevol]

Most networking gear mgmt is tied to a specific version of java.

Re:I'm old enough to remember

[Anonymous Coward]

No, we want web apps to be written in Java or Flash.

We want Mozilla, Google, and Microsoft, HP, Dell, ASUS, Acer, Toshiba, Samsung, and Apple, Hulu, Netflix, and Youtube to all be fighting for dominance over every layer of the cake.

Because when they're all fighting with each other for dominance, they need the users more than the users need them, and they forget to include onerous DRM.

Since the beginning of the tech industry, companies have tried to control segments of the market and prevent Richard Stallman from fixing the printer driver. The government wanted Intel to put DRM in your CPU once, but Intel wasn't in control enough to do it.

If users want their computers to be programmable, they need to keep the tech companies fighting with each other and never let one of them have the kind of dominance they want.

Re:I'm old enough to remember

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

We should all be pushing for web apps to be Javascript and HTML. Forget even stuff like canvas and WebGL. We want apps that are function and display useful data in a readable manner, not flashy stuff, right?

I agree up to a point. Functionality is more important than presentation, and certainly we want readable and usable over flashy. That said, there is definitely a place for well-designed visualisations and custom interactions in GUIs, not to be flashy but because they are more efficient and less error-prone. Implementing that functionality in a web context does need some capable tool, whether it's Java, Flash, a D3-backed SVG, or something else entirely.

Re:I'm old enough to remember

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

The UIs I've worked on in that field aren't. :-)

Re:I'm old enough to remember

[peppepz]

How do you write your user interfaces in Python? And in Java? Does Python3 run your Python2 code?

Re:I'm old enough to remember

[farble1670]

I'm old enough to remember when Java was supposed to be "write once, run everywhere"

you don't have to old to look at the millions of android devices running write once run anywhere apps written in java.

Re:I'm old enough to remember

[Anonymous Coward]

run anywhere in terms of browser portability

Yeah, as long as you never updated your version of java. What bullshit.

Hey Cisco mgr, don't update beyond Java v1.6u25! Ooops, you did, now it's never working again. Go rebuild a new VM to manage your cisco gear just because of a minor java update.

anywhere != any point in time

Not even joking, we use different terms for these - portability and stability

Re:I'm old enough to remember

[Lisandro]

How do you write your user interfaces in Python?

Pick your favorite UI toolkit and use its Python bindings. PyGUI is super lightweight and it will render native widgets on Windows, Mac and *nix (GTK+ 2)

Does Python3 run your Python2 code?

For the most part, yes, but it is not necessary; Python 2.x is still widely used so most setups have both Python 2.x and 3.x installed. In fact, i'd argue that version management is easier on Linux scripts than it ever was on Java.

Re:I'm old enough to remember

[Anonymous Coward]

Been stating this for a long time now. I've had (way) less issues writing portable code in Python and Perl than i did in Java.

What the **** were you writing?

First problem is the Perl/Python environments that ship with your OS change between OS releases, and not all OS's even have these runtimes. Even if they did, they'd be different versions all with different sets of bundled libraries. So we have cygwin, rhel5, rhel6, rhel7, ubuntu, solaris, etc. all with slightly different perl/python environments.

To solve that you have to compile the whole runtime yourself, with add-on modules/libraries, and support your multiple platforms while at it. (because we're talking about portability, right?) Summing it up - a god-awful NIGHTMARE.

OR you can pay openlogic, activestate, someone like them, and just deal with whatever libraries they don't bundle. These are not cheap.

Compared to Java where I can go download a specific runtime version for any of the above platforms, for free, and you have to TRY to write non-portable code.
I can punch my keyboard and produce a line of Perl that assumes I'm on *NIX.

Either you have a magical sysadmin genie that builds perfect multi-platform perl/python environments with all the platform specific addons you asked for, someone else is paying your activestate subscriptions, or you are just writing code WRONG.

If you have such a sysadmin, buy him LOTS of beers before he plans to murder you with a plastic fork.

Re:I'm old enough to remember

[Anonymous Coward]

Java applets actually were write once, run anywhere

Depends how they were written. At my work we used to rely on a Java applet that required an older version of the Java runtime. The applet simply wouldn't run in the latest versions of Java. I don't know what the specific issue was that prevented the applet from running. It just underlined that Java has the same platform compatibility issues that all platforms have.

Re:I'm old enough to remember

[Lisandro]

What the **** were you writing?

First problem is the Perl/Python environments that ship with your OS change between OS releases, and not all OS's even have these runtimes. Even if they did, they'd be different versions all with different sets of bundled libraries. So we have cygwin, rhel5, rhel6, rhel7, ubuntu, solaris, etc. all with slightly different perl/python environments.

To solve that you have to compile the whole runtime yourself, with add-on modules/libraries, and support your multiple platforms while at it. (because we're talking about portability, right?) Summing it up - a god-awful NIGHTMARE.

Jesus Christ, was your last programming gig back in the 70s? Package and version management has been a non issue on both languages for ages now. Python even has a fantastic sandboxing tool called virtualenv, widely used in conjunction with pip, which means you can basically install Python program of any complexity, from scratch, with a single command. This includes dependencies which might not be the same version as the one used by the rest of your system. Good luck doing that with Java when your dependencies or JVM doesn't match the exact version number required by your jar file.

Re:I'm old enough to remember

[BarbaraHudson]

I don't see too many programs for android that require a Java runtime.

Re:I'm old enough to remember

[farble1670]

OP said "Java".

Java: a programming language
JVM: an implementation of a virtual machine that executes byte code.

regardless, does it make a difference? android code is byte code compiled from java source code. the paradigm is the same.

Re:I'm old enough to remember

[BarbaraHudson]

That would be like saying you write a program in c and cross-compile it to perl, and claim that you're running c.

Re:I'm old enough to remember

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, python does not support windows XP anymore , I cannot even install it on my machine.

Re:I'm old enough to remember

[Anonymous Coward]

http://legacy.python.org/downl...

Re:I'm old enough to remember

[NatasRevol]

Cisco's sure as hell are.

ProCurves sure as hell are.

Re:I'm old enough to remember

[farble1670]

That would be like saying you write a program in c and cross-compile it to perl, and claim that you're running c.

No on would ever claim to be running C because C isn't a runtime it's a language. By the same token, I don't claim to be "running" Java, because it isn't a runtime, it's a language. I'd claim to be writing Java. You just made my point for me, thanks.

What does almost everyone mean when they say they code in Java, or use Java at work? They mean the programming language. They aren't talking about the JVM. I mean really, when people say they are Java developers, do you think they mean the code in Groovy, or Scala and run the resulting byte code on the Java Virtual Machine?

Re:I'm old enough to remember

[BarbaraHudson]

No on would ever claim to be running C because C isn't a runtime it's a language

Really? So when I compile a C program I'm not linking in the C runtime library? Of course I am - otherwise the executable wouldn't be able to start.

Now if you don't want ANY runtime, try assembler. Just don't make any system calls, any bios calls, etc., because they too are part of the runtime environment.

Re:I'm old enough to remember

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

I didn't write those, so I can't comment on why they have the limitations you're reporting. All I can say is that the similar software I have developed, in some cases also related to networking hardware, has never run into these "must have exactly JRE version X" issues as far as I'm aware, nor can I see any likely reason they ever would (other than now not working with any future versions of some browsers or Java plugins beyond support being cut off, obviously).

I'm not saying the version ties you're complaining about don't happen. I have no reason to doubt what you're telling us. However, I am questioning whether they are due to some inherent problem with Java or just to developers not doing a great job when writing certain specific programs. Without knowing the actual limitation and why it happens in each case you mentioned, it's impossible to say.

Re:I'm old enough to remember

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm willing to bet that by the time HTML5 reaches the same level, it will have acquired a similar amount of security vulnerabilities.

"Java's demise"

[Anonymous Coward]

Hardly, unless you are talking about browser plugin technology. It was never big there to begin with, but Java is still a major player in server side technology.

Re:"Java's demise"

[StormReaver]

Hardly, unless you are talking about browser plugin technology.

The browser plugin has needed to die for 20 years, so I'm glad to see it finally happen.

The submitted appears to now know the difference between the Java browser plugin and the Java language. The former is dying (it's about time), while the latter is thriving.

Will be fun to see

[aristofeles]

Almost every bank in Brazil uses java plugin for security login. Every single .gov.br site that has any remote type of login uses it too. So in one hand, they will have to adapt. Most banks will. FINALLY. OTOH there is no way in hell that the [brazilian] government will adapt in less then.. 5 year I guess. So, from some point forward in the future, I will have to support clients using Internet Explorer.

Re:Will be fun to see

[Anonymous Coward]

They will just add a Java Web Start link link my bank has done. You click the link, download the applet, and it runs mostly as before.

Inevitable

[The MAZZTer]

This isn't surprising if you've been following Chrome. By some metrics it's the most used browser now, and they dropped support for NPAPI plugins (like Java) due to security concerns. Oracle's official reply to this has been "use Firefox" which in my opinion was incredibly short sighted, unless they feel Java just won't work using PPAPI. Who on earth is going to use a plugin in their website that doesn't support one of the biggest browsers? That person would have to build a fallback for Chrome, and at that point they might as well just ditch Java and use the fallback for all browsers if it's good enough.

Re:Inevitable

[mrops]

As a java developer, working on java from JDK 1.0,

This is a long time coming, Java is now mostly used on large server side projects. Its driving the Big Data revolution with technologies like Apache Spark. Running countless servers on Tomcat and/or Spring containers.

Oracle is not wrong in discontinuing the browser plugin. They should have done it with JDK 5

Re:Inevitable

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think Oracle discontinuing the plugin would have had any effect on JDK 5, since Sun Microsystems still existed back then.

Re:Inevitable

[Junta]

Its driving the Big Data revolution

I think I just threw up in my mouth a little. Not to disparage the technical benefit of the technology, but that phrasing just makes me cringe about anything.

Re:Inevitable

[farble1670]

Java is now mostly used on large server side projects.

ever heard of Android?

Re:Inevitable

[BarbaraHudson]

Java is now mostly used on large server side projects.

ever heard of Android?

Since when does Android run Java byte code? Oh, it doesn't.

Re:Inevitable

[farble1670]

so quick to be a smart ass. check your work next time.

Java is now mostly used on large server side projects

it doesn't say java byte code does it? it says java, as in the language.

Re:Inevitable

[BarbaraHudson]

Here is the quote and your reply:

Java is now mostly used on large server side projects.

ever heard of Android?

Java does not, and never has, run on android.

Re:Inevitable

[farble1670]

Sigh. You are right, Android doesn't run The JVM. But that's not what the OP said is it?

Java is a language that is compiled into various forms. One is dalvik, and now ART byte code that's run on Android. Also, you can take Java byte code compiled libraries and run them on Android if you want to quibble.

So, right, Android doesn't run Java, it just runs apps written in Java and libraries compiled to Java Byte Code. Good thing we cleared that up.

Re:Inevitable

[BarbaraHudson]

Java byte code does NOT run on android. That's not a quibble, just an inconvenient fact.

Re:Inevitable

[KGIII]

True, but it was certainly time for a paradigm shift! (That one always kind of irks me, perhaps inexplicably or unjustifiably, and just grates on me.)

Re:Inevitable

[farble1670]

Here you go,

{quote}
Dalvik programs are written in Java using the Android application programming interface (API), compiled to Java bytecode, and converted to Dalvik instructions as necessary.
{quote}
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

You done now? If you are going to say "Ah HA! It doesn't actually run Java byte code, it converts the byte code to Dalvik instructions!"- well, that's the definition of a quibble. It's an implementation detail of Dalvik that a developer doesn't need to care about. From their point of view they are writing Java. Notice how it's referring to Java as a language not a runtime.

Re:Inevitable

[BarbaraHudson]

Funny - my Android uses the Android RunTime - dalvik was dumped at the last upgrade. The very FIRST WORDS from your link: "Dalvik is a discontinued process virtual machine." It even says that as of Android 5.0, there is no more dalvik.

Re:Inevitable

[farble1670]

ART is just a different runtime. it still allows java byte code. from the developer's perspective, it's no different.
regardless, what percentage of devices are running Dalvik. what percentage run ART? oh ... darn.

Re:Inevitable

[BarbaraHudson]

Java byte code (.class files) is converted to the dex format during the compile process. Even dalvik never ran java code. Part of the build process is to convert the java class files to dex format, because dalvik cannot do java classes.

As you can see in this diagram, the .apk file only contains .dex files, resources (compiled and uncompiled), and the AndroidManifest.xml file. No .class files (which means no java byte code) to be seen. Not for Dalvik. not for Art.

And you can't just blindly write java source and expect it to work. No AWT or Swing classes, for example.

It will not be dropped from java 9

[Anonymous Coward]

The announcement says that the plugin will be deprecated from java 9, and removed "in a future Java SE release".

Re:It will not be dropped from java 9

[Anonymous Coward]

As President of the Don't Use Deprecate When You Mean Depreciate Society, I wish to inform you that you are in Error.
It's understandable; many of the early Developers in the Java Community didn't have a strong grasp of the English Language, and it is from them that "Deprecate", until then meaning to Insult, got confused with "Depreciate", meaning to Make Of Lesser Value.

When you say "The announcement says that the plugin will be deprecated from java 9...", you are insinuating that the Plugin is inherently unworthy. It isn't. It just means that something better has come along, as it sometimes does, and that the old Plugin should just be put on a shelf, with some residual value to be determined later.

Our Society Secretary will be in contact later; she will explain the Fines, and the Consequences. Note that we will monitor you in the future; if for instance you are found to have used "Decimate" in any manner other than to imply a reduction of one-tenth of some quantity, we have the means to eliminate you from the Gene Pool.
This is your first warning.

Sincerely;

Ponsonby Britt, President and Spokesperson
Don't Use Deprecate When You Mean Depreciate Society, LLC.

Re:It will not be dropped from java 9

[KGIII]

I am no expert but don't commas go in the quotes? "Like this," perhaps? Punctuation goes outside of the parenthesis and punctuation goes inside the quotes, as a general rule, yes?

(For example, punctuation would go in here.) But, (at the same time), punctuation would go out here. Then, shall we say, "to make matters worse," it's exactly backwards with quotation marks?

Err... Those are horrific sentences so please don't judge them as anything more than (bad) examples. That's how I learned it? I also learned the Oxford comma but that's not always true. I figure if you're an expert at some grammatical society then, perhaps, you might be right and I might have been wrong this entire time. It is both possible that I was given incorrect instruction or that I misunderstood the instruction given. It's possible that it is optional and a stylistic thing that may depend on all sorts of things, including one's physical location.

Given that I've written a whole lot, using the above method while nobody dinged me for it - I'm inclined to think that I'm at least correct in that it's a stylistic choice if not outright correct and that your post was in error. I am not, nor do I purport to be, an expert on the subject. There are a few subjects where one might conclude that it is reasonable to consider me an expert, this is not one of those subjects. Yet, in case you are unable to notice or are unfamiliar with my posting history, I write a great deal. I also make it a point to do my reasonable best where grammar is concerned.

So, kind sir, if you could give instruction (with citation or not) that'd be most helpful and would be greatly appreciated. In return, I promise to not only not ever confuse those two words (I don't believe I have ever done so) but I also promise to use the word decimate with its original meaning. Hmm... I'll even through in the use of the word "literally." I will, literally, only use the word "literally," literally.

As an aside, and a gift, I will share my favorite sentence with you. Piers Anthony is not a native English speaker. His early works were science fiction and weren't that bad. His Xanth series is great, if you're a teen girl. At one point, he wrote a novel that was his attempt at authoring in the horror genre. He actually touches on this, in his autobiography, and it's a rather interesting sentence. The above, and combined with the fact that he authored this sentence intentionally - in an effort to demonstrate some of the failings of the language, combine to make it more interesting. Allow me to quote:

"The experiences he had had had been bad."

I love that sentence. Yes, I like it more than the buffalo sentence.

Re:It will not be dropped from java 9

[aethelrick]

um... no I think they meant deprecate. The term works well when describing parts of a system that are still their but not worthy of praise in light of the new shiny version that is better.

Deprecate from Latin deprecari de (expressing reversal) and precari (to pray for or praise)

So to deprecate is to literally anti-praise something. I don't think that deprecated APIs 'lose value over time' in the sense of depreciate, I think a point is reached beyond which the advice from the language writers is to not use the deprecated thing any more, they advise instead to use the new version that has replaced it. They literally advise people to stop using/teaching the old deprecated way by writing deprecated across the top of the manual pages, their is nothing gradual about this, this is not depreciation, this is immediate instruction to no longer favour this way of working.

Of course, deprecated bits of languages hang around in the system for years to come in order to provide compatibility for old code bases running on new JVMs, and to the users of these deprecated parts of the system they clearly hold great, sustained value over time, the opposite of depreciation

You should step down from your presidency, worthy of deprecation as you are due to your inappropriate promotion to depreciate that which is clearly deprecated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMnC3Nwif1k

[teac2019]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

Dupe post got promoted.

[Z00L00K]

Interestingly the dupe post promoting Softpedia got promoted over the post that directly linked the Oracle Blog post: http://slashdot.org/submission...

Re:Dupe post got promoted.

[Anonymous Coward]

You'll notice that Slashdot has been feeding a lot of traffic to Softpedia articles over the original articles. I don't think this is a happy accident, there is money involved.

Great, now time for ActiveX to die.

[Anonymous Coward]

ActiveX is still a thing in some deeply retarded places like the whole 1st world.

malware vector

[jlv]

The one and only time I had a Windows machine infected was some malware that got installed without my knowledge via Java Web Start. I have never let that be on a computer of mine since. I've never had that happen via the Java plugin (which, BTW, I don't allow to run by default in FF and Chrome).

Good riddance to bad rubbish!

[mfearby]

Enough said.

Network gear admin pages?

[Anonymous Coward]

A lot of network gear uses fancy schmancy java web applets to have a usable interface, since the command line functions have bizarre usability issues. Guess we need to keep an old OS/browser with an old java version in a VM just for that...