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Marco Rubio Wants To Permanently Extend NSA Mass Surveillance (nationaljournal.com)

SonicSpike writes: Marco Rubio wants Congress to permanently extend the authorities governing several of the National Security Agency's controversial spying programs, including its mass surveillance of domestic phone records. The Florida Republican and 2016 presidential hopeful penned an op-ed on Tuesday condemning President Obama's counterterrorism policies and warning that the U.S. has not learned the "fundamental lessons of the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001." Rubio called on Congress to permanently reauthorize core provisions of the post-9/11 USA Patriot Act, which are due to sunset on June 1 of this year and provide the intelligence community with much of its surveillance power. "This year, a new Republican majority in both houses of Congress will have to extend current authorities under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, and I urge my colleagues to consider a permanent extension of the counterterrorism tools our intelligence community relies on to keep the American people safe," Rubio wrote in a Fox News op-ed.

32 of 352 comments (clear)

  1. Fundamentals by amicusNYCL · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I don't remember one of the fundamental lessons of the 9/11 attacks being that we weren't watching everyone all the time without a warrant.

    --
    "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    1. Re:Fundamentals by Fire_Wraith · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Clearly we weren't conducting full mass surveillance prior to 9/11, so we need to do so. Otherwise the terrorists win.

      We also didn't have anyone locked up in Guantanamo, so we need to double, no, TRIPLE Guantanamo. Anyone who says otherwise obviously is a terrorist sympathizer.

      And we're not doing this for our sake - it's for the children. Won't someone think of the children?

      /sarcasm

    2. Re:Fundamentals by bored · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I was sitting across from a couple guys sitting in the BBQ joint in Texas two weeks ago. And they were badmouthing the iran prisoner exchange, and then they started agreeing with each other they that bringing the "terrorists" to the US for prison was a terrible idea. I basically asked them "So your afraid of a couple unarmed guys guarded 24/7, who for the most part have less than a high school education who grew up in caves?"

      The thing that kills me about gitmo is the all the "brave mericans" running around crying about how dangerous it is to bring the remaining guys from gitmo to the US. What happened to "land of the free, home of the brave?" I guess that went out of style when GW Bush told everyone to go shopping.

    3. Re:Fundamentals by bobbied · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The issue with bringing the combatants from Gitmo to US soil is not about them getting loose, it's about them getting extended constitutional rights because they are not in the custody of the Armed Forces anymore.

      They will be given the right to stand trial, PUBLIC trial, where the reasons why they are being detained and how we know that information will be subject to the standard rules of evidence used in criminal court. Likely the evidence will not meet the requirements of our legal system and get thrown out, which will set them free. The military is NOT a law enforcing agency (except for the Coast Guard) and it is this way for a very good reason. They do not collect evidence legally when they are dealing with enemy combatants. They have the legal ability to capture, detain and kill combatants within the rules of war, which are totally different than the rules dealing with criminal prosecutions. And this is how it should be.

      So, no, I'm not afraid of the guys in Club Gitmo as long as they are guarded 24/7, but if you let them go they are avowed to do us harm. If you bring them to US soil, you are likely letting them go, just as sure as if you dropped them off in front of their home and drove away.

      I'm amazed at how many folks don't get this, that somehow think we can just stuff them into our federal prisons (with or without trials and convictions) and keep ourselves safe from them. That idea is stupid because I see an army of lawyers at the ready to plead their case and force their release starting just as on as they set foot on US soil. Heck, they've tried it already and they are in Cuba under military rules...

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    4. Re:Fundamentals by nehumanuscrede · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I believe the leadership of this country are the ones failing to understand " the fundamental lessons of the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001 ".

      That lesson being: Quit trying to force your will on the rest of the world. Regime changes to install US friendly governments tend to piss a lot of people off. Maybe the leadership should take a good look at our foreign policy and realize " The more we intervene in the Middle East, the greater the likelihood of retaliatory action. " ( Retaliatory action. See entry: Planes flying into buildings )

      The short version: Don't want to worry about terrorism ? Quit bombing shit.

      I also don't think our leadership understands that they are the only ones truly afraid of a terrorist attack against this country. Most of us realize the odds are right up there with winning the lotto, so we don't tend to put a lot of concern into the matter. To be honest, I am far, FAR more concerned with our own Governments behavior and Law Enforcement than I am any potential terrorists.

      As for any actual terrorists, you guys are targeting the wrong folks. Blowing up people who have zero say so in the decision making process is a complete waste of everyone's time. It may make the news for a day or two, vanish just as quickly and absolutely nothing will have changed. Put some thought into what you're doing and weigh the likely outcome vs what you hope to achieve.

    5. Re:Fundamentals by phantomfive · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Regime changes to install US friendly governments tend to piss a lot of people off.

      Read a report from an ex-jihadist who had become radicalized because he was upset when the US didn't intervene quickly enough in Bosnia. So it really doesn't matter what the US does, it can be used by jihadists for recruiting purposes.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    6. Re:Fundamentals by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yeah. American legal rights. Such as the alleged assumption that you're innocent until proven guilty.

      Not everyone in Gitmo was captured on the battlefield or in an act of war. Some got there because US "Allies" railroaded them. Some people who would now commit acts of terror wouldn't have if they hadn't been stuffed in prison without due process. Just to get even.

      The Home of the Brave sees terrorists as magical supermen immune to the normal means of handling criminals and enemies alike. Never before in the history of the USA have we been so terrified, not even of the Godless Communists of the Soviet Evil Empire that we had to invent a whole new classification ("Enemy Combatant" and system (of which Guantanmo is only one part).

      I won't say that the USA has run out of brave people entirely, but it's obvious that it's now the land of the Chickens, run by the Chickens.

    7. Re:Fundamentals by bobbied · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yes, the military has prisons where they put their own. However, that's legally a totally different situation from an enemy combatant taken on the battle field. If you put the Gitmo detainees on American soil, they will demand due process as non-military personnel and would likely get it. If you run these cases though out civilian legal system, they are going to walk free.

      The only option that legally works and keeps these people locked up is Gitmo, a military run prison/detention facility.

      So, would you be ok if we just moved a pile of military prisoners to Gitmo? I hear it's a nice place climate wise... Sunny, Warm and Tropical. Remember people used to pay to vacation in Cuba before the revolution.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    8. Re:Fundamentals by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The only option that legally works and keeps these people locked up is Gitmo, a military run prison/detention facility.

      Legally works, except that it doesn't.

      Seriously-- I don't see why giving the accused the right to defend themselves in court is a problem.

      If you think that it is a problem, then I think we've identified the real problem. And if you have no faith in our judicial system, then that is the problem to fix.

      I don't think that is representative of why there is reluctance to bring them to the US. I think there are two reasons: 1. a fear that a trial will possibly expose to the world some of the less appropriate practices that lead to their capture, and 2. that these people have legion of doom superpowers and will somehow either escape or use their sith lord powers to convert everyone in the prison to their brand of anti-christianity, then use their ungodly powers to levitate out of the facilities.

    9. Re:Fundamentals by vux984 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      They will be given the right to stand trial, PUBLIC trial, where the reasons why they are being detained and how we know that information will be subject to the standard rules of evidence used in criminal court. Likely the evidence will not meet the requirements of our legal system and get thrown out, which will set them free.

      That is what SHOULD happen. They are not criminals, they are not POWs. They should be deported and set free.

      I REALLY don't care how "bad" the government tells us they are, nor even how bad they really actually are.

      We cannot simply take prisoners and hold them forever. And its not like they really pose a threat. Not a serious one anyway, certainly nothing existential, or even substantial. They'll be under surveillance and won't so much as fart in our direction, or they'll disappear into a cave somewhere and never be seen again... either way: fine.

      If they personally orchestrate the fall of the United States, well, then: you were right, we should have held them. But we both know that's ridiculous.

      There are far greater threats in the world then those guys.

    10. Re:Fundamentals by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Neither option is ideal, but if you intend to hold them, the military holding them on foreign soil is the only legal option that works. Thus we have GITMO...

      Except of course that it's not actually a legal option.

    11. Re:Fundamentals by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So basically what you're saying is that due process is just "too good" for some people, and would let them walk even though they're "bad guys". Shoving them into military detention centers that operate outside of rule of law is a workaround.

      Are you also one of those people who always complain about how federal govt doesn't respect your Constitutional rights these days, by chance?

    12. Re:Fundamentals by mrchaotica · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yes, the military has prisons where they put their own. However, that's legally a totally different situation from an enemy combatant taken on the battle field. If you put the Gitmo detainees on American soil, they will demand due process as non-military personnel and would likely get it. If you run these cases though out civilian legal system, they are going to walk free.

      So, let me get this straight: you're upset that the American justice system would work as designed, which would lead to a result you don't like. Did I get that right? Okay, in that case, I'll respond in the most patriotic way I know how:

      FUCK YOU, YOU FREEDOM-HATING SOCIOPATH! YOU ARE WORSE THAN ANY TERRORIST!

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    13. Re:Fundamentals by Lunix+Nutcase · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The government might have to prove their charges in a court of law? My god, how evil that idea is. Clearly they must be bad guys if its claimed they are so.

  2. How about we treat the rest of the world better? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If we should have learned anything from 9/11, it's that we should stop pushing terrible foreign policies on other nations. Also, stop meddling too much in their affairs. It is much easier to protect out nation by getting other countries to like us, instead of beating them into temporary submission.

  3. Truth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Freedom is more important than safety. Privacy is a freedom that you are too willing to throw away. Please stop being such a pussy.

    Thanks,
    An American Citizen.

  4. Oh good, a reason by Kobun · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I hadn't read or heard much about this guy, but since he seems like he'll be the #3 between Cruz and Trump (who are both so unelectable it hurts) it's good to know that he's as awful a candidate as anyone else the Republicans have up.

    Never expect anything from a politician, and you might be disappointed by them only half the time ...

    1. Re:Oh good, a reason by bored · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I don't think Sanders is that extreme, I might be wrong, but by himself (especially with a republican congress) he won't be effective enough to create the kind of environment you envision.
      In that regard as president he would be a good counterbalance to the crap that we have been living with for the last 40 years, that has resulted in massive shifts in wealth in this country. Just reversing or stopping that trend (and no, more tax cut's aren't the answer to our shitty infrastructure, and shrinking middle class) a little would make him massively successful in my book.

    2. Re:Oh good, a reason by amicusNYCL · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Sanders isn't going to be able to wave a magic wand and have all of his desired policies implemented. I welcome the change in attitude that he represents. He can do a lot of good even without fulfilling some of the things that he'd like to see done the most.

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    3. Re:Oh good, a reason by vux984 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Sounds like different meanings for "unelectable".

      For example, it sounds like your definition of unelectable is someone who *shouldn't* be elected, while the OPs I think is more along the lines on someone who *couldn't* win an election.

      Hillary on the latter criteria is electable. Period.

      Sanders... i wouldn't have thought electable, but given the turd-salad the Republicans are fielding... might very well be in this particular race against the right opposition.

      I can't see Cruz winning an election against Hillary or Sanders.
      I couldn't see Trump winning an election against Hillary or Sanders at one point, but now I think voters might just do it.

      Rubio, I don't know, I think he too is electable.

      As for desirable... none of them in the republican field. Sanders maybe for the democrats. But lets be honest here, the problem is really not the president and never has been. A Sanders win would be much like a Ron Paul win (back when he ran) even if they win they don't have broad support in congress or the senate to really do anything.

      And THAT is where the real rot is, congress and the senate. And it doesn't matter who gets put in the whitehouse, that rot isn't going anywhere.

  5. It's time to admit ... by gstoddart · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It's time people started to accept this very important fact: being sellouts who want to sign away your rights is not a party issue.

    They're all pretty much acting like it's better to live in fear in a surveillance state than it is to remember you can't "defend" freedoms by eliminating them.

    Aren't these clowns all supposed to take an oath to defend and uphold the Constitution? Instead they're all deciding it doesn't apply.

    Republicans, Democrats ... they're all happy to spy on everybody and act like it's normal.

    --
    Lost at C:>. Found at C.
  6. Surrending Civil Liberties,All downhill from there by evolutionary · · Score: 4, Insightful

    When you get goodies like warrantless searches, you never want to give them up. Like Ben Franklin said "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety". Never were truer words spoken. Next we'll be using methods we condemned Germany and China for to "monitor for threats". From this respect, it's true We haven't learned from national or world history.

    --
    "Imagination is more important than knowledge" - Einstein
  7. Re:How about we treat the rest of the world better by Firethorn · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Indeed. Our post WWII conduct with other countries was often extremely shameful. I termed my service as 'cleaning up the messes of our parents and grandparents'.

    We should have a policy of conducting ourselves with honor - we make a deal, we keep it. We don't support people who are anti-ethical to our beliefs. Democracy isn't wrong, even if the population doesn't like us. Keep acting honorably and they'll eventually change their minds.

    --
    I don't read AC A human right
  8. Ever Closer... by nebular · · Score: 1, Insightful

    I fear that I will see in my lifetime the event that signifies the beginning of the end of the American Republic as Caesar's crossing of the Rubicon did for Rome's

  9. So much bull, so little space... by gurps_npc · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Security Fundamental lessons of 9/11/2001: 1) Shoot down any plane if terrorists take it over. 2) Do not ignore notifications that known terrorist are in the states and taking flying lessons. 3) Communicate between agencies. 4) Bolt shot airplane cockpits.

    Security lessons in the post 9/11 world: 1) Airline metal detection is worthless. 2) Espionage is more useful against Congress than against lone wolf terrorists. 3) It is very easy to use the threat of terrorism to get elected.

    Also, throw in some bull about a 'new GOP dominated Senate' on the ridiculous belief that you will win, when the majority of polls continue to show the Democrats leading, and that the GOP would rather vote for crazy people like Trump and Cruz than elect a competent person.

    --
    excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
  10. Re:TLDR: I want Obama's policies permanently? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Yes, his position can be summarized as:

    - Obama failed by not spying on the innocent citizens enough;
    - I propose we continue to spy on the innocent citizens, as Obama does, forever!

    His political need to attack Obama results in an incoherent position statement.

  11. Who didn't see this coming? by Striek · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I saw this coming the moment the US enacted the "temporary" Patriot Act, and I've reminded people every time they extended it. Once the government has power, they never give it back. I can't find examples to quote (other than the 1st Rule of Acquisition), but I'm sure everyone can think of at least five cases in history where this pattern has been repeated.

    The only sane course of action when governments try to enact legislation like this, for any reason, is to block it at every available opportunity. These laws never get repealed, and the "temporary" emergency laws always become permanent.

    Fuck 9/11. History already taught me that governments never waste a good opportunity to grab power, that all emergency powers become permanent, and that no government, ever, can be trusted with these powers.

    --
    "Government is like fire; a handy servant, but a dangerous master." -- George Washington
  12. Re:How about we treat the rest of the world better by kenaaker · · Score: 4, Insightful

    And then there's always "War is a Racket" by Marine Corp General and Commandant Smedly Butler. (Two Medal of Honor awards also). He was telling his story in the 1930s after the attempt to recruit him to run the Coup to depose FDR.

  13. Re:How about we treat the rest of the world better by bobbied · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I think the hawkers of this isolationist ideal in foreign policy have a really short sighted view of the world and don't understand the real reasons why the USA is not viewed kindly in some places.

    I don't think we are prepared to fully go isolationists or that we understand what that looks like. I think those that push this idea want their cake and eat it too. On one hand they will decry the so called abuses of our past interventions, but in their next breath will bitterly complain about us not taking actions to stop the massive waves of violence and death that would come if we went 100% hands off.

    I also think we do stick our noses in places it doesn't belong and are fickle about what actions we do choose to make. Osama Bin Laden spoke of this fickle USA that would intervene one day to stop atrocities, then withdraw, leaving the locals to clean up the mess the next. Where the USA easily gets tired, looses it's resolve and goes away. He was right, we are driven by the news cycles and what's important to us now, doesn't matter next week, so that leads us to things like the Iraq war, where we went in, guns blazing with nearly 100% popular support after 9/11 to voting in some guy advocating we cut our losses and run, before the Iraqis where able to defend themselves. We depart, the situation falls apart as was expected, and now with the advent of ISIS we face a situation on the ground which is horrible for the people we liberated from Sadam. Yes it was and is our fault, and we all can agree on that regardless of if you think the war was wrong or if the premature departure was wrong.

    Somewhere in all this there has got to be a balance between just not getting involved and being the world's policeman, between bombing the heck out of one group, arming another group or letting the world to it's own devices, regardless of how bad it looks.

    --
    "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
  14. Re:a clue: Half as much as Clinton by sumdumass · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I was thinking about this today for some reason. I came to the conclusion that wall Street backs Hillary because she was the original modern day wall street banker.

    White Water was a land deal in which many people lost their savings on but Hillary came out pretty good. It was declared that she did nothing wrong so no charges were ever filled. Then she somehow made a mint from cattle futures but no one seems to be able to put how together. Fast forward to the financial collapse and we see similar things. Hillary is them, she was their mentor.

  15. Re:He's just trying to win the Primary by dinfinity · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Please. Nobody in the GOP will ever be close to the center. They are all superconservative.
    Most of the Democratic party is the closest thing the US has to being 'center'. Bernie Sanders is the only real leftwinger running, which in the US apparently equates to PINKO COMMIE.

  16. No. by damn_registrars · · Score: 5, Insightful

    a socialist trying to give away free everything to anybody

    Sanders is not trying to "give away" anything. Nobody who supports Sanders expects to get things for "free", either. He openly states that taxes will have to go up or other parts of the budget will have to be cut. However, Sanders supporters are intelligent enough to realize that these are - absolutely and without challenge - the best investments that the government can possibly make. Money spent in prisons is never recouped. Money spent on education is recouped on average 5-10 times over (and often much more than that). Money spent on war is almost all lost. Money spent on health care is almost always returned.

    The only people who think that Sanders is going to "give away" anything for "free" are the people who hate him too much to bother listening to what he actually says.

    --
    Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.