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Wendelstein 7-X Fusion Reactor Produces Its First Flash of Hydrogen Plasma (gizmag.com)

Zothecula writes: Experimentation with Germany's newest fusion reactor is beginning to heat up, to temperatures of around 80 million degrees Celsius, to be precise. Having fired up the Wendelstein 7-X to produce helium plasma late last year, researchers have built on their early success to generate its first hydrogen plasma, an event they say begins the true scientific operation of the world's largest fusion stellarator.

98 comments

  1. This is completely awesome by Kobun · · Score: 5, Insightful

    And I wish them godspeed. Energy and information are the fundamental limits of the human condition. Fundamental leaps in either arena will be transformative.

    1. Re:This is completely awesome by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Now all they need to do is put out more energy than they are putting in and we can call it generation.

    2. Re:This is completely awesome by zlives · · Score: 1

      couldn't have said it better, just to imagine an energy independent world boggles the mind.

    3. Re:This is completely awesome by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      So it should. How could that ever happen?

    4. Re:This is completely awesome by Rei · · Score: 3, Insightful

      There will never be an "energy independent world". But what one can accomplish is of course highly dependent on how much energy can be provided for a given amount of money (where the concept of "money" is basically an IOU for human labour... all costs, eventually, trace back to human labour)

      Of course, cheap energy costs can have disadvantages... it all depends on how we choose to use it. For example, with our greater ability to "make things", it would be quite possible that mining would dramatically increase. On the other hand, we could take a more modest quality of living improvement and dedicate more resources toward recycling and living with lower environmental footprints - even using the energy to drastically reduce our footprint (such as intensive light-driven grow ops, freeing up farmland). It all depends on the choices we make as a society.

      All of that said... this is way premature. We don't even know that this sort of technology will - anytime in the remotely near future - prove to even beat current sources of electricity on price, let alone dramatically outcompete them. One can hope, however.

      --
      It's times like this I wish I had a friend named 'The Professor'.
    5. Re:This is completely awesome by gstoddart · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Please, you won't get an energy independent world. You'll have patent holders demanding $1 trillion dollars to power your country. And the distribution companies. And of course the competing distribution companies people will open up to allow for false competition and preventing a natural monopoly.

      It's a nice idea, but if you think the world is suddenly going to become a place with unlimited free power, you're sorely missing how badly the corporations will fight to stop that from ever happening.

      I mean, that would be communism, and communism would be evil.

      Don't get me wrong, this is completely awesome. I just don't think it would ever be allowed to undercut a model in which a series of middlemen charge you their cut to deliver something which they get for free.

      You don't maintain shareholder value giving stuff away for free, and it's ALL about shareholder value.

      And there's way too many entities who will want to get their beak wet to think you'll see much different than you see now.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    6. Re:This is completely awesome by voss · · Score: 3, Insightful

      One problem for the "evil cartel" Patents are only good for 20 years and even if the energy itself is free maintenance of the power lines and distribution equipment costs money.

    7. Re:This is completely awesome by Kobun · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Obviously, there's no way fusion results in free energy. First, let us count the advantage it provides:

      * Virtually free & unlimited fuel.

      Now we count some of the impediments:

      * The machine to create fusion needs to be meticulously manufactured.
      * Infrastructure to distribute the power needs to be built and maintained.
      * The very best fusion reaction we currently know about ( p + B ) still generates side-reactions that produce Neutrons. There will be radioactive waste to deal with.
      * Neutron flux means that the difficult to manufacture machine will need ongoing maintenance.
      * The lack of a viable mass-scale superconductor means that many such fusion plants will be needed.

      Neither of these lists are complete, obviously. But I feel that they do an OK job to demonstrate the point.

    8. Re:This is completely awesome by Hussman32 · · Score: 4, Informative

      They aren't intending to generate energy with this reactor; the goal is to sustain plasma at temperatures high enough to eventually get to fusion. The article says they are at 80 million deg C, which is about 7 keV. They need to get to 14 keV for a D-T reaction (look at the minimum for the Lawson Criterion) . That's excellent work, and if they can sustain it for thirty minutes, even better. When they are done, the design will be proven and then they can do the harder problem of building a reactor that can withstand the neutrons and recover the heat for a secondary cycle.

      --
      "Who are you?" "No one of consequence." "I must know." "Get used to disappointment."
    9. Re:This is completely awesome by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      An energy independent world is certainly possible. An evil corporation independent world is completely impossible.

    10. Re:This is completely awesome by Rei · · Score: 5, Informative

      Interestingly enough, for d-t fusion, the neutrons are not an unwanted waste product, but actually essential. Tritium doesn't grow on trees, you have to make it. And more importantly, d-t fusion only gives off one neutron, and it takes one neutron captured by 6Li to breed 1 tritium (you can also make tritium from 7Li bombardment and not consume the neutron, but due to the cross sections and energies involved its usually not as interesting). So if you use one neutron to make the fuel that produces one neutron, and you can't capture 100% of the neutrons, you're in trouble! You get around this by using a lithium-beryllium blanket, as beryllium is a good neutron "multiplier" (capturing one high energy neutron and yielding two lower energy neutrons). It's also rare, expensive as heck and its dusts are highly toxic, but it's consumed at a tiny rate, so it's mainly just an initial cost (heavy elements like lead can also be used as multipliers but they're not very effective in this context, their cross sections don't extend down as far as beryllium and their (n, Xn) reactions where X>2 don't make up for it). So basically, while you lose some neutrons to unwanted reactions, you overall end up producing enough to produce enough tritium for your reactor to consume. The key point is, you want the neutrons to be hitting your reactor, they're doing you a service ;)

      There will of course be unwanted neutron captures, but when you engineer it you're choosing specifically what materials are going to be bombarded, so you can pick materials with low neutron capture cross sections and which capture to isotopes that are either stable or have short half lives. Concrete is great for how cheap it is (light elements in general are, and concrete is mostly made of light stuff). As far as metals go, aluminum is great where heat loads or mechanical stresses aren't excessive. Beryllium is even better, as well as stronger and lighter... but see the aforementioned issues with it. Steel is "okay", usually fine if you're careful about what you alloy it with. You generally want to avoid titanium. Graphite is superb if you run it hot enough (otherwise you risk Wigner energy problems). Composites likewise, although they're more temperature limited. Most common ceramics are made of light elements, which makes them very good to use, although those with heavy elements (like tungsten carbide) should be avoided. Tungsten in general should be avoided unless necessary. Some ceramics like boron carbide/nitride are highly heat and corrosion tolerant, high compressive strength, huge neutron absorbers and don't yield dangerous byproducts, which lets them fit multiple roles at once - so long as there's little tensile or shear stresses. In some cases you may want more of a neutron "window", wherein things like zirconium or lead would be good - particularly specific isotopes of them if you're willing to pay for enrichment. It all depends on the operating environment and geometry.

      --
      It's times like this I wish I had a friend named 'The Professor'.
    11. Re:This is completely awesome by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      "Make things" is the limit, not energy. There are limits to resources, energy is just one component of the resource tree.

      Recycling becomes key. And with nearly endless energy, recycling becomes a non-issue, allowing for re-purposing of "used" resources.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    12. Re:This is completely awesome by truck_soccer · · Score: 1

      All my mod points are belong to you. Unfortunately I have none, but that's okay, because sharing them with you would also be communism.

    13. Re:This is completely awesome by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      A trillion dollars to power the US for patents until they run out is cheap. But stuff doesn't magically appear. Either government pays for research or private people do, and the lion's share of invention is the latter.

      So better to have new stuff even if costly for a bit, than have it years later, or never.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    14. Re:This is completely awesome by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Would be nice if energy and information weren't double-edged swords, though; both are misused, turned against people to control them, and to destroy. I just hope that if and when we reach this 'energy independent' state of development, we somehow have grown, as a species, beyond the point where we have people who just want to watch the world burn.

    15. Re:This is completely awesome by mspohr · · Score: 1

      I wish them good luck but they are a long way (and several difficult problems) from generating energy.
      Reminds me of the early hype for fission reactors... "Too cheap to meter" which turns out to mean "Too expensive to matter"

      --
      I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
    16. Re:This is completely awesome by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      Fusion is clean energy, not necessarily cheap. It is a replacement for shortage and (nowadays) pollution of fossil fuels, not anything else.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    17. Re:This is completely awesome by budgenator · · Score: 1

      Don't worry patents only last for 20 years, and hydrogen fusion has been 30 years away for the last 50! Now I'm off to download the designs for one of those 200MPG carburetors that the oil companies bought up 20 years ago.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    18. Re:This is completely awesome by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      Nothing a Sonny Bono act for certain energy patents can't fix...

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    19. Re:This is completely awesome by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      At this rate, I wonder if fusion will be able to compete with renewables by the time it's made practical.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    20. Re:This is completely awesome by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't believe you can patent a process of nature. Not even in the US.

    21. Re:This is completely awesome by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Give it time.

      The world of unicorns and rainbows is thousands, perhaps tens of thousands, years of human cultural and physical evolution away. But I believe if we don't poison or otherwise kill ourselves, we have a shot at it.

      It took 250,000 years (an eye-blink in evolutionary* time) to develop the forebrain. We've only been using it for about 40K years, and only really beginning to understand it in the last maybe 200 years.

      * just don't fucking start with the "no evolution" horseshit, OK? Go back to Prairie Muffin Land and let those of us with open, functioning minds run the world, please?

    22. Re:This is completely awesome by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You clearly have no concept of the scale of energy consumption. There are three primary sectors, electricity generation, heating and transportation. Each so large in scale that renewables will have a hard time satisfying even one of them. The raw materials we make solar panels and wind turbines out of have to come from somewhere. There just isn't going to be enough supply. The only way we power our society with renewables is if we use way less electricity, live in much smaller homes, and travel less. It means the end of energy abundance. It means everyone becomes poorer and standards of living and economic output in general have to fall. The knock on effect will be agricultural collapse, mass starvation and political instability. That's not very stiff competition for fusion.

    23. Re:This is completely awesome by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That was bullshit and they knew it. What they wanted was an excuse to build lots of plants (money) and excuses to play with turning the output gunk into weapons fuel.

      Atoms for Peace. Orwell would have been proud.

    24. Re:This is completely awesome by wyHunter · · Score: 1

      Not only does recycling become a non issue but extraction of minerals and other materials from elsewhere, like the moon or an asteroid - indeed, towing an asteroid to earth orbit.

    25. Re:This is completely awesome by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Come on! Seriously, it isn't hard to see human labour falling well before we achieve nearly unmetered energy. I don't know what the economy will be like then, but it sure will be vastly different to today.

    26. Re:This is completely awesome by rch7 · · Score: 1

      The theoretical limits how much wind/solar we can produce are way higher than we need. They either don't need any special supplies to manufacture, or these special supplies can be substituted by other wide-spread supplies without significant cost increase. E.g. many wind turbines use neodymium but newer giant wind turbines don't use permanent magnets and don't need neodymium. You can scale it as much as you want.

    27. Re:This is completely awesome by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "unlimited free power" There is no such thing as "free" power. Someone will have spent a shit load of money into the R & D needed to create an alternative and environment friendly source of power. They will want a return on their investment. Then there are all the scientists, engineers, operations personnel, and a shit load of people needed to move this "free" energy technology from the lab to the outside world and they will also expect to be compensated for their efforts.

    28. Re:This is completely awesome by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      gstoddart the energy magnate has spoken! His word is law and he knows all (in his own mind at least). He is the ultimate authority (let him have his little petty delusions)!

    29. Re:This is completely awesome by lazy+genes · · Score: 0

      Now we have a chance at cleaning up the waste from the last free energy project.

  2. Meanwhile, in New Jersey... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=R0PYe-4090g

    1. Re:Meanwhile, in New Jersey... by Eloking · · Score: 1

      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=R0PYe-4090g

      Hmm...what is that?

      --
      Elok
    2. Re:Meanwhile, in New Jersey... by vovin · · Score: 1

      Presumably they are implying that nuclear fusion is a fraud based on pseudoscience?

    3. Re:Meanwhile, in New Jersey... by gstoddart · · Score: 1

      LOL ... wait ... but ... but ... the Sun. For the love of god, man ... The Sun.

      Now, something we can build and control and get perpetual free energy? Well, I'm less convinced of that.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    4. Re:Meanwhile, in New Jersey... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The same people will turn around the next day and try to convince you that Nikola Tesla was conducting fission experiments using an old coke bottle and some zinc plated new-age artifacts.

    5. Re:Meanwhile, in New Jersey... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >the Sun. For the love of god, man ... The Sun

      The Sun goes around the Earth; everyone knows THAT. What's your point?

    6. Re:Meanwhile, in New Jersey... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, for that Tesla used only clockwork, weights, copper, and electromechanical switches.

      But you got the fusion part right.

      That Tesla was onto something, I tell you...

    7. Re:Meanwhile, in New Jersey... by ffkom · · Score: 1

      Skimming money off gullible investors. Claiming to have found "dark matter" and, at the same time, having turned it into a viable energy source is a little bit over the top, even for fraudster standards.

    8. Re:Meanwhile, in New Jersey... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      gstoddart why are you so stupid? Seriously. Why?

  3. sunfire / in my stellerator / makes me... happy? by Pseudonymous+Powers · · Score: 3, Interesting

    So I've read the Wikipedia articles on the 7-X and on stellarators in general, but I'm not a physicist.

    Can someone knowledgeable tell me how to feel about this? Does this represent meaningful progress toward fusion power? If so, how meaningful? Is fusion still 50 years away, or are we down to 49 now?

  4. Precise? by gstoddart · · Score: 2

    to temperatures of around 80 million degrees Celsius, to be precise

    Sorry, what definition of precise are we using here?

    I'll be glad when we get through this shakedown period of falling editorial quality by ... well, by timothy, actually.

    --
    Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    1. Re:Precise? by Junta · · Score: 2

      It is a funny sequence of words, but in context it doesn't seem wrong. It says at first 'heating up', then '80 million degrees' which is more precise than 'hot'. It sounds a tad cheesy to me doing the rather uninspired play of words, but not incorrect usage.

      --
      XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
    2. Re:Precise? by gstoddart · · Score: 1, Informative

      No, "more accurate" would be correct ... an exact temperature would be "precise".

      That's kinda-precise-ish in a vague hand-wavy kind of way. Kind of the opposite of "precise".

      "around 80 million degrees Celsius, to be precise" is sure as hell NOT precise.

      That could be +- 5 million degrees and still be "around".

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    3. Re:Precise? by Rudisaurus · · Score: 1

      It was the combination of "around" (approximately) and "to be precise" that got to gstoddart. They do seem to be mutually incompatible.

      --
      licet differant, aequabitur
    4. Re:Precise? by Junta · · Score: 1

      'more precise' would have been better, but 'precise' by itself is a very relative term. There's no set number of significant figures that can be considered 'precise' versus 'not precise' in absolute terms. Having 3 significant figures may be precise in some context, even though in another you could have 6.

      In this case, the starting point is no significant figures, increasing to 1 significant figure is precise (by comparison).

      Both values may be considered 'accurate'. Hot and 80 million degrees are both accurate, but 80 million is more precise than hot. 70 million versus 80 million would be a matter of accuracy, number of significant figures a matter of precision.

      I really must not want to be doing my job if I'm sitting talking about precision and accuracy in an internet thread.

      --
      XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
    5. Re:Precise? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's exactly estimated to be precisely around 80 million degrees Celsius, give or take. I'm positive that's what I guess as accurate.

    6. Re:Precise? by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

      Precisely.

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    7. Re:Precise? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      gstoddart slashdot's own resident mongoloid imbecile has attempted to manipulate the human language to his own ends. You all can attempt to decipher the hieroglyphics result to your own dismay! The NSA has tried to break the encryption but it's too powerful they say. What they fail to understand is that the dolt gstoddart spews nothing but gibberish and bullshit that was never meant to convey any useful information at all!

    8. Re:Precise? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We'll all be glad if you'd leave gstoddart. Your mongoloid cretin level of idiocy is amusing but unoriginal and boring. Spare us your attempts at wit. Thought doesn't particularly suit you as it is a foreign concept to you obviously considering all you do is spit back by rote what others before you have long ago stated while attempting to pass it off as your own original insights, which they are clearly not.

  5. Hallelujah! by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

    Our helium shortage is over! (And I suspect the government was anticipating this when they put the strategic helium reserves up for sale.)

    --
    I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
  6. Re:sunfire / in my stellerator / makes me... happy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    You should feel whatever you feel, unless you're a robot, in which case: /apply feeling hopeful.

    Part of the fusion problem is keeping the hydrogen confined in the plasma. A stellator does this by shaping the magnetic field in such a way that the plasma twists and constricts itself. So instead of constraining a moving plasma, the moving plasma constrains itself.

    This requires a precise shaping of the magnetic field via superconducting magnets, and the design of these has only recently become possible with advanced calculations on supercomputers.

    So this is a test run of a new kind of fusion reactor. If it works, it will change the world. And so far so good, but we won't know until it works until all following tests succeed.

  7. Re:sunfire / in my stellerator / makes me... happy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is fusion still 50 years away, or are we down to 49 now?

    Nope, still 50.

  8. Re:sunfire / in my stellerator / makes me... happy by Kobun · · Score: 2

    I'm not particularly knowledgable, just an armchair physicist. I can only dream of a different path taken where I would have done this research. And keep in mind that fuel costs are a tiny drop in the bucket for a modern fission reactor. They could increase 100-fold without significantly altering the end-user cost of power. Fusion is still going to require big, expensive plants (they will just have lower fuel and waste handling costs). With that being said, there are a few BIG problems to overcome (but no one climbed a mountain with a single step).

    Materials - Tritium / Deuterium fusion is NASTY, but it's what we're going to be able to get to at first. As in, higher neutron-flux than a commercial fission reactor nasty. Neutron damage causes lots of weird effects including metal embrittlement and radioactivation. Getting confinement good enough for net power generation is a big problem, but so is keeping the machine pieces operable for an economically feasible length of time.

    Energy harvesting - T + D fusion is again unpleasant for this. Because a large portion of the energy released from this fusion is in the neutron it throws, most of the schemes for turning fusion into electrical power involve using the neutron to heat stuff up (like a liquid lithium blanket) and then go through a standard heat-to-steam turbine cycle. Less than ideal.

    Confinement - We're going to start with T + D fusion. Which has already been super hard to get a magnetic field the right shape and strength to support. But where we want to end up is simple Hydrogen (a proton) + Boron. There are several challenges (power balance, temperature/pressure/density) here but they can be summarized as being 500 times greater than simple T + D fusion. This kind of fusion won't produce nearly as many neutrons, which means most of the energy will be in the form of charged particles that can be directly harvested for energy. Which is great, but it's 500 times as hard as the thing we haven't achieved yet.

  9. Fusion energy is impractical by InterGuru · · Score: 3, Informative

    As a former program officer for the Office of Fusion Energy, US Department of Energy I can assure you even if the Stellarator "works", it will not be a practical source of power. The complex engineering and cost make harvesting energy from fusion impractical.

    I could fill a page on enumerating them. For one -- fast neutrons can destroy any material known. No one has come up with a design for the the first wall that captures the neutrons and energy.

    The old quip is "Fusion has been 25 years in the future for the last 50 years.

    1. Re:Fusion energy is impractical by Whatsisname · · Score: 2

      You don't need to be a program officer to know that, they staff of the 7-X say that themselves, there is no expectation it will be used for power generation. The 7-X is a machine for science.

    2. Re:Fusion energy is impractical by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Surely not! Why, it's very easy to deal with the neutrons. Just have a steady stream of anti-neutrons at them, and you eliminate them, plus you get more energy out. Simple!

    3. Re:Fusion energy is impractical by Rei · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Fast neutrons can impact any isotope and destroy it in that regard, but that says nothing about the long-term structural stability of the bulk material. Different materials have different annealing properties. More to the point, slow neutrons can do the same thing, just in a different manner (that is, (n, gamma), instead of (n, random-ions-and-neutrons)). Fast neutrons are overall more damaging (and of course more penetrating... although we're not talking about spallation neutrons here with energies up into the GeVs, we're only talking 14,1 MeV) - but they're not some sort of whole different ball game. I am, of course, assuming you're talking about structural issues. If you're talking about from the perspective of how radioactive it will become, tell me, how hot does beryllium get under heavy bombardment? Boron carbide? Graphite? I could keep going. In fact, I did, further up the thread.

      There are many reasons to complain about various designs, but your over-generalized statement is anything but some kind of universal rule. And really, the sort of flexibility of materials that fusion allows versus fission more than compensates for having to deal with higher neutron energies.

      --
      It's times like this I wish I had a friend named 'The Professor'.
    4. Re:Fusion energy is impractical by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      fast neutrons can destroy any material known

      I worked at a fast neutron nuclear power plant, so I know ... slightly more than nothing. :)

      Water is a great way to capture fast neutrons. We get Tritium, for which there is market demand -- for fast neutron reactors and otherwise. It also cheapens nuclear bombs because you can use U-238, which is plentiful, to make plutonium-239, instead of more rare and much more expensive isotopes. Can we not use water to capture fast neutrons from a fusion reactor?

      That said, I don't understand why a fusion reactor would be generating excess neutrons. Wouldn't the whole point be that those free neutrons bind with hydrogen to make helium? Isn't fast neutrons the whole point? I am almost certainly horribly ignorant and/or confused, but any illumination would be most welcome (from OP or otherwise)

      Which is all to say ... I don't understand this one point you've raised, and I appreciate it may take a lot to explain it to me, but I'm curious since it discords with my (*very* limited) understanding. And I'm sure you've many more points, which are also informative.

    5. Re:Fusion energy is impractical by amRadioHed · · Score: 1

      You can't control where the neutrons go since they aren't contained by the magnetic fields the way the plasma is. Some of the neutrons will stay within the reactor and propagate the reaction and others will exit the containment vessel. And my understanding is that the neutrons leaving containment are necessary too, since they contain energy which can be collected and turned into electricity.

      --
      We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
    6. Re:Fusion energy is impractical by InterGuru · · Score: 1

      The core fusion plasma must not actually touch the first wall.
      ITER and many other current and projected fusion experiments, particularly those of the tokamak and stellarator designs, use intense magnetic fields in an attempt to achieve this, although plasma instability problems remain.
      Even with stable plasma confinement, however, the first wall material would be exposed to a neutron flux higher than in any current nuclear power reactor, which leads to two key problems in selecting the material:
      It must withstand this neutron flux for a sufficient period of time to be economically viable.
      It must not become sufficiently radioactive so as to produce unacceptable amounts of nuclear waste when lining replacement or plant decommissioning eventually occurs.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    7. Re:Fusion energy is impractical by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When a fast neutron hits an atom it knocks it out of its position and frequently changes it to a different element/isotope. This turns a solid structural material into a radioactive powder. Whatever material you use to separate the water from the vacuum has to be super strong, is exposed to intense heat radiation and fast neutron bombardment. You want it to conduct heat well, you want it to maintain its structural integrity under massive heat gradient and you want it to not turn to radioactive powder and fail catastrophically under neutron bombardment. We have no material for solving this problem.

    8. Re:Fusion energy is impractical by Rei · · Score: 1

      When a fast neutron hits an atom it knocks it out of its position and frequently changes it to a different element/isotope.

      The same applies to slow neutrons, so....? Your average 14,1 MeV neutron is most likely to inelastic scatter down to the point where more exotic reactions than (n, gamma) are basically impossible (excepting a few specific cases, like 6Li(n,t)4He - again, not dangerous). Only a small percentage of your 14,1MeV neutrons (depending on the material they're passing through) have a chance of undergoing anything more than a standard (n, gamma) transmutation. Unless the system is specifically designed to cause that (for example, a beryllium multiplication in the lithium blanket). The standard case is inelastic scatter once or twice -> elastic scatter a bunch -> become partially or completely thermalized -> capture.

      This turns a solid structural material into a radioactive powder

      What happens depends entirely on what's being bombarded. Many materials are perfectly fine after long periods of exposure - slow or fast neutrons. Light ions in particular are usually either A) relatively unaffected (sometimes requiring sufficient heat for proper annealing, sometimes not), or B) incredibly good absorbers, leaving nothing dangerous behind. See a more detailed breakdown above.

      --
      It's times like this I wish I had a friend named 'The Professor'.
  10. Re:sunfire / in my stellerator / makes me... happy by Rei · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The "50 years away" stuff is a really unfair criticism. The amount of progress that's occurred in the past several decades is many orders of magnitude - JT-60 has even gotten to Q=1.25, which means they were getting 25% more power out than they were putting in to maintain the reactor in steady-state operation.

    Part of the reason that this concept got started was because of a big mistake early on with the ZETA program. Unbeknownst to them, A) heavy electron bombardment of their detectors was leading to false spectral shift readings, making them think that the temperature was much hotter than it was, and B) there was a possible method to create neutrons that they were unaware could be significant - heavy localized acceleration of ions causing spallation impacts. The unfortunate part was, by coincidence, (B) happened to produce roughly the amount of neutrons that would be expected by (A). So they thought that they were just a short step away from a viable fusion reactor, when in reality they weren't even close. Due to the more primitive technology at the time, not only did they not have detailed computer models that could have warned them to expect the neutrons, but they also didn't have a convenient way to measure neutron energies (it was this that later proved their early conclusions wrong). Their lack of computer models also meant that they were unaware of how much of a problem drift would be.

    It's a very different situation today. There's really no question that we can viably produce fusion power today. The real question hanging over our heads is, what is it going to cost? How can we engineer a system to produce power affordably? And that's the real question that's going to take a lot of work to figure out. One thing is for sure, though: the higher the magnetic fields you can get for a given cost, the vastly easier it becomes. And these new high temperature superconductor tapes could push us leaps and bounds even beyond ITER, whether you go with a stellerator, a more traditional tokamak, or really anything else that employs magnetic fields. It's very encouraging for the field to see a route that already looked to be on a positive path get such a "bonus".

    --
    It's times like this I wish I had a friend named 'The Professor'.
  11. Re:sunfire / in my stellerator / makes me... happy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    W7-X is there two test two things. The confinement properties of quasi-axisymmetry and Island diverters.

  12. Re:sunfire / in my stellerator / makes me... happy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    It's still more like 50 years towards fusion. The Wendelstein was only built to investigate how well stellarators can confine plasma over a long period of time. No fusion will actually happen in this facility.

    A stellarator is one of the three most promising plasma confinement methods:

    * Magnetic confinement by means of the Lorentz force. There are actually two ways to achieve this:
          - Confinement with toroidal/poloidal coils and injection of an electrical current into the plasma. This is usually done by induction and can, as such, only operate in a pulsed mode (imagine the plasma as the second coil of a transformer). This method will be used by the ITER which is built in France.
          - Confinement with strangely looking magnetic fields. The intrinsic movement of the particles due to temperature is enough, no need for external current injection. But the "current" does not have a clear direction anymore, so instead the magnetic field lines need to be set up appropriately. This problem is computationally a little difficult and could only be adequately solved relatively recently. This is the stellerator approach used in the Wendelstein.

    * Inertial Confinement. This is used at the National Ignition Facility (NIF) in California. Basically, a pellet of fusion fuel is ignited with very short, very high power laser pulses. The ignition of the outer layers of the pellet will also compress the inner material, creating the conditions for and initiating fusion. The inertia of the fuel's mass holds it together long enough for quite some fusion reactions to happen. Obviously, this approach can only operate in a pulsed fashion as well.

    To my knowledge, only Tokamaks and the NIF have successfully initiated (controlled) fusion. But none have actually ignited the fuel (i.e. made the reaction self-sustaining), much less achieved the point of break-even.
    So while this work is very important and interesting, I wouldn't expect proper fusion reactors any earlier than 50 years from now.

  13. Re:sunfire / in my stellerator / makes me... happy by Kobun · · Score: 1

    I wish I had mod points (and hadn't posted a couple of times already), but thank you for an excellent post.

  14. familiar by Gravis+Zero · · Score: 3, Funny

    Germany's newest fusion reactor is beginning to heat up, to temperatures of around 80 million degrees Celsius

    80 million Celsius? That's on par with a Hot Pocket that's been microwaved too long. I wonder if they are using Hot Pocket technology. ;)

    --
    Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
    1. Re:familiar by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Quick, call Jim Gaffigan! He's an expert and could help them revolutionize the planet!

    2. Re:familiar by gstoddart · · Score: 1

      Well, it's the more generalized problem of Melted Pizza Cheese.

      That freshly delivered pie will strip all the flesh from the roof of your mouth, and you should probably leave it to sit for a few minutes. You won't, but you should.

      Cheese forms a super-heated semi-fluid capable of delivering FAR more heat than its thermal mass should allow.

      You could cauterize wounds with fresh melted cheese from pizza.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    3. Re:familiar by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They are actually using microwaves to heat the plasma, so you are not far off ;-)

    4. Re: familiar by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you recommending pizza / medical fusion technology? ;)

    5. Re: familiar by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      I think he's recommending military applications of pizza technology. It's a workable idea. Leave serverely overheated hot pockets on the enemy battlefield, enemy soldiers can't resist picking them up and biting into them once the outer crust cools (while the interior is still as hot as the inside of an operating fusion reactor), and then this happens.

      It'll work until new treaties outlaw the use of hot pocket weapons as a war crime.

      Even then, the technology could help medics cauterize wounds on the field. Dude's bleeding out through two severed thighs? Extrude some overheated hot pocket cheese from an insulated container onto the wound!

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    6. Re: familiar by LeadSongDog · · Score: 1

      Sorry, this technology only works in your mom's basement.

      --
      Oh, I'm sorry sir, I thought you were referring to me, Mr. Wensleydale.
    7. Re:familiar by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It talks! My God, it really talks! gstoddart slashdot's own resident mongoloid talked!

  15. Re:sunfire / in my stellerator / makes me... happy by kellymcdonald78 · · Score: 3, Informative

    There is also the element of funding for R&D. In the late 70's the DoE produced a fusion roadmap based on different funding levels. There was a crash program forcast which would have led to commercial fusion in 10-15 years, a robust development program that would led to fusion in 15-20 years, and a point where if funding remained below a certain level, would never lead to commercial fusion. Guess what funding level was chosen (well below the "fusion never" level). So the joke of "fusion is the technology of the future and always will be", is a result of no real investment being made. Sure ITER may be a $15billion project, but its also a 50 year long project. First announced in 1985, first plasma wont occur till 2025, that's 40 fricken years later, not exactly demonstrative of an intensive focus on developing fusion energy. Compared to what we invest in developing other sources of energy, its chump change

  16. Re:sunfire / in my stellerator / makes me... happy by dpidcoe · · Score: 1

    We're still 50 years out. This is like every other fusion reactor that's made fusion: An experiment for one part of a proof of concept for a proof of concept for a proof of concept of the real thing.

  17. Re:sunfire / in my stellerator / makes me... happy by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 1

    I had a couple of friends in undergrad physics who went to grad school to study plasma physics to work on this. Both dropped out after about 2 years citing that thy couldn't wait five years and went on to get phds in solid state (more money). This was 2 years ago.

  18. Nuclear Power? Germany? by shalomsky · · Score: 0

    I thought they were done with all nukes?

  19. So close. by truck_soccer · · Score: 1

    Almost there boys! Come on, it ain't rocket appliances!

  20. Re:sunfire / in my stellerator / makes me... happy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    As an engineer working in the fusion field, I would not agree it's quite so rosy a picture. *Lots* of issues need to be solved technologically, although I agree with you the physics side of Tokamaks is relatively understood. I.e. it would be a huge shocker if ITER didn't produce the power expected. Tokamaks are however very unreliable with stability, and whether or not these can be controlled and mitigated enough for reliable power production remains to be seen. Further, going from ITER to DEMO is like launching a rocket to space vs. going to the moon; the high energy neutron flux from a fusion reactor will centimeters of the first wall to powder. Getting enough lithium around the wall for tritium breeding and heat removal for a steam cycle is very difficult.

    In the end, it's all economics as you say. I can't imagine with the present state of technology a viable commercial fusion reactor online until past 2100. ITER will be ~2030, DEMO ~2070 if ITER cost/is any clue. Say you're making a decision for a company - would you rather spend $20 billion dollars on a very finicky tokamak fusion reactor with tremendous maintenance costs (tritium recycling, lithium management, disruption and instability mitigation systems, etc.), or a gen III or IV nuclear reactor - perhaps a thorium molten salt reactor - that produces the same power reliably for a small fraction of the cost?

    Commercial fusion will happen eventually, but in my opinion not without tremendous advances in materials science and superconducting magnets. One can imagine with clever first wall materials and >20 T fields using advanced BSCCO superconducting materials (or other) a reactor might become as affordable as a fission reactor of the same power output. Contrary to what fusion researchers will have you believe, fusion will always be in economic competition with fission.

    This PDF sums it up pretty nicely: http://www.askmar.com/Robert%20Bussard/The%20Trouble%20With%20Fusion.pdf

  21. Re:sunfire / in my stellerator / makes me... happy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It is the latest and biggest experiment in an ongoing chain and not the first working stellerator confinement, either. So Wendelstein 7-X is strictly speaking not of a new kind, but rather of the *other* kind of desgin besides Tokamaks: more complex, more challenging, but also without some of the inherent drawbacks. It's not yet clear which design will make the better reactor in the end.

  22. Re:sunfire / in my stellerator / makes me... happy by LeadSongDog · · Score: 1

    How can we engineer a system to produce power affordably?

    Ask Elon to do it!

    --
    Oh, I'm sorry sir, I thought you were referring to me, Mr. Wensleydale.
  23. Re:sunfire / in my stellerator / makes me... happy by AlanBDee · · Score: 1

    Posts like this are why I love /.

  24. Re:sunfire / in my stellerator / makes me... happy by Firethorn · · Score: 1

    The Wendelstein was only built to investigate how well stellarators can confine plasma over a long period of time. No fusion will actually happen in this facility.

    Incorrect. The Wendelstein will reach pressures and temperatures necessary for fusion. Fusion will occur in it unless something seriously goes wrong. What won't happen is electricity generation.

    You are correct on the 50 years though - the director of the Wendelstein mentioned that there will need to be another generation of test systems before power generation will be able to be seriously considered.

    --
    I don't read AC A human right
  25. Re:sunfire / in my stellerator / makes me... happy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's a materials issue.

    It took us a decade to solve the materials issues required to get to the moon.*

    The conditions the material must withstand are much more precisely known now; I predict quicker progress in metallurgy, etc. will lead to increasingly efficient designs in the next decade.

    If the fusion is clean as per radiation AND carbon, who the fuck cares if V1.0 is inefficient? The fuel is SEAWATER, we're not going to run out of it soon.

    *Fuck you. They went. "Magnificent desolation." - Edward Eugene "Buzz" Aldrin

  26. Re:sunfire / in my stellerator / makes me... happy by R3d+M3rcury · · Score: 1

    Stellarator? Sounds like something Dr. Doofenschmirtz would build.

    "Behold, Perry the Platypus! My Stellarator! It will make anyone it zaps think they are Marlon Brando in 'A Streetcar Named Desire'!"

  27. Re:sunfire / in my stellerator / makes me... happy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    WTF is this? A knowledgeable reply containing a citation to a scholarly article?

    Has Slashdot come to THIS?

    I'm taking my sockpuppet and going home.

  28. Re:Nuclear Power? Germany? by ffkom · · Score: 2

    Germany migrates away from nuclear fission power, yes. But Germany is still funding science, and that not only if there is "return on investment" to be expected before the next elections.

    Might be that fusion power won't be required right when it becomes feasible. But humankind might be happy to have it at hand during the next ice age.

  29. Re:sunfire / in my stellerator / makes me... happy by Rei · · Score: 2

    The plasma facing material faces a flux of 1 neutron per 17,6Mev. By contrast, nuclear fuel cladding faces a flux of ~2,5 neutrons per 202,5 Mev, or 1 per 81 MeV. It's certainly higher, but it's not a whole different ballpark. And yes, you're dealing with higher energy neutrons but in a way that can help you - you've often got lower cross sections (for example), and in most cases you want the first wall to just let neutrons past.

    There's a number of materials with acceptable properties. Graphite is fine (no wigner energy problems at those temperatures). Beryllium is great, and you need it anyway. In areas where the blanket isn't, boron carbide is great. Etc. These materials aren't perfect, but they're not things that get rapidly "converted into dust" by neutrons. Really, it's not the first wall in general anyway that I'd have concerns about, it's the divertor. The issue isn't so much that it takes a high neutron and alpha flux and "erodes" fast - that doesn't change the reactor's overall neutrons per unit power output ratio, and if you have a singular component that needs regular replacement, said replacement can be optimized. The issue is that you have to bear such an incredible thermal flux on one component. Generally you want to spread out thermal loads, it makes things a lot easier.

    --
    It's times like this I wish I had a friend named 'The Professor'.
  30. Re:sunfire / in my stellerator / makes me... happy by Rei · · Score: 1

    Hmm, thought... and honestly, I haven't kept up on fusion designs as much as I should have... but has there been any look into ionic liquids as a liquid diverter concept? In particular I'm thinking lithium or beryllium salts. They're vacuum-compatible, they should resist sputtering, they're basically part of your breeding blanket that you need already... just large amounts, flowing, and exposed. Do you know if there's been any work on this?

    --
    It's times like this I wish I had a friend named 'The Professor'.
  31. Re:sunfire / in my stellerator / makes me... happy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This requires a precise shaping of the magnetic field via superconducting magnets, and the design of these has only recently become possible with advanced calculations on supercomputers.

    You're being vague and a bit over top if not misleading. Stellarators simply use twists in the magnetic field shape, so that particles, which mostly follow the field lines in a circle around such machines, are on average pushed outward as much as inward as they go around. If there is some instability that causes particles on the outside to get pushed out, then after a twist, they will get pushed inwards instead. It doesn't work this way for every possible kind of instability, but it removes some of the big ones that tokamaks instead try to brute force with stronger magnetic fields.

    They don't inherently need supercomputers to be designed, as they existed as far back as the 50s. Although it takes quite a lot of computational ability if you want to make an efficient one and scan through a large parameter space, but the fields and coils from any given design can be analyzed on a normal computer. Modeling the plasma behavior on the other hand is a little more difficult as there are not as nice of symmetries as in a tokamak that allows some simplifications to be made, but progress is being made quite quickly on modeling efforts.

  32. Re:sunfire / in my stellerator / makes me... happy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    The plasma facing material faces a flux of 1 neutron per 17,6Mev. By contrast, nuclear fuel cladding faces a flux of ~2,5 neutrons per 202,5 Mev, or 1 per 81 MeV. It's certainly higher, but it's not a whole different ballpark.

    The fusion situation is worse, because the total neutron flux is still much higher for a given unit of area and volume. Higher neutron energy doesn't mean messier collisions for the most part, and that energy just gets spread out over a larger volume.

    Regardless, the total neutron flux is higher in a fusion reactor. A fission reactor might see on the order of 10^23 neutrons per square meter over the entire 40-50 year lifespan. Fusion reactors are estimated to be on the order of 10^26 per square meter per year. 10^24 corresponds to about an average of one displacement per atom in the absorbing material. So on average the fission reactor material only has about 10% of its atoms displaced over the lifetime, while the fusion reactor would have, on average, every atom displaced hundreds of times over the lifetime.

    There is a reason why there is a big push for testing of materials under fusion conditions, and for facilities like IFMIF and use of artificial neutron sources, because just placing it in a research reactor is not going to cut it.

    Really, it's not the first wall in general anyway that I'd have concerns about, it's the divertor. ...Generally you want to spread out thermal loads, it makes things a lot easier.

    The divertor has a lot more flexibility and a lot of ideas already being tested, in part because the plasma can be controlled better than the neutrons. The impact point can be moved with time and deferentially pumped to give some more material flexibility. The blanket on the other hand is much closer to the bulk plasma, and you're limited to low atomic number material or tungsten (or maybe not even tungsten).

  33. Re:sunfire / in my stellerator / makes me... happy by Rei · · Score: 1

    So on average the fission reactor material only has about 10% of its atoms displaced over the lifetime, while the fusion reactor would have, on average, every atom displaced hundreds of times over the lifetime.

    How can you make generalized statements like that? Cross sections vary by many orders of magnitude Fission reactors are generally made of steel, which is hardly setting any records in terms of low cross sections. The smaller the reactor, the less material you have to replace, and the more expensive the material you can use. And being "displaced" is not a fundamental universal material property effect, it depends on how the material responds to radiation damage, which varies greatly. Generally materials respond better at high temperatures (annealing), and fusion reactors operate of course at far higher temperatures than fission reactors.

    I have trouble seeing how one would consider neutrons per square meter to matter more than neutrons per MeV. Because neutrons determine what you're going to have to replace, and energy determines how much money you get from selling the power to pay for said maintenance. You can spread it over a broad area and do infrequent replacements, or have it confined to a tight area and do frequent replacements, the same amount of material is effected. Some degree of downtime for maintenance is normal in power plants - even "high availablility" fission plans still only get ~85% uptime.

    --
    It's times like this I wish I had a friend named 'The Professor'.
  34. Thank You by gerald.edward.butler · · Score: 1

    That made me laugh.

  35. Re:sunfire / in my stellerator / makes me... happy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    How can you make generalized statements like that? Cross sections vary by many orders of magnitude

    Fast neutron cross scattering sections in the couple MeV range barely vary over more than the range of 1-10 barns. Fe56 is about 4 barn over this range. C12 drops off from about 3 barns to 2 barn, hydrogen from 4 to 1 barns, Be9 from 7 to 2, but mostly around 3 to 2.

    And being "displaced" is not a fundamental universal material property effect, it depends on how the material responds to radiation damage, which varies greatly.

    It is a measure of the environment, and illustrates that fusion reactor walls are in a different ball park than fission reactors. You can't look at fission reactors and say those materials will be fine under a couple orders of magnitude more damage. If you don't like neutron displacements, you can also look at other factors, like hydrogen and helium implantation, which is also typically two order of magnitude higher in fusion blanket materials than in a fission setup.

    Generally materials respond better at high temperatures (annealing), and fusion reactors operate of course at far higher temperatures than fission reactors.

    Creep and thermal defect issues set upper limits on the materials involved. Additionally, chose of coolant places further limits. Integration of annealing cycles into blanket design is not brought up enough in some design studies, but is a consideration to help. But it is not straightforward and likely unreachable in some designs for some of the components. Reduced activation ferritic/martensitic steels have a limit of about 550 C due to creep issues at higher temperatures, but don't seem much annealing until the 800+ C range. And only some advanced cooling designs are going to allow blankets to even get near that temperature anyway, as water based designs are limited to ~300 and more established helium and liquid metal designs around 500 C.

    Blanket design is extremely constrained by tritium breeder ratio to ensure more tritium is produced than used, which squeezes volume allowed to be used by coolant, which leaves very limited volume for structural components. This requires high stress application of materials unlike what you see in any existing fission reactor, and only approached in some performances in proposed advanced designs. Regardless, the operating temperature of the material works out about the same as the temperature range in fission reactors, but they have much lower neutron flux to worry about. Gen 4 reactor designs are in the 500-1000 C temperature range, exceeding in some cases what is thought reasonable for fusion blanket design.

    I have trouble seeing how one would consider neutrons per square meter to matter more than neutrons per MeV.

    The number of neutrons gets you the number of impurity defects, which can't be removed by simple annealing, especially at the lower temperature ends. Other defects tend to be related to total flux energy, which is also higher (you're looking at multiple MW/m^2/a vs kW/m^2/a range for structural elements). And you can't just spread it over broad areas, because that would greatly increase the reactor size, and to the zeroth order, reactor cost scales with volume.

    Some degree of downtime for maintenance is normal in power plants - even "high availablility" fission plans still only get ~85% uptime.

    Blanket replacement is considerably more complex than fuel replacement in a fission reactor, and there are concerns that at the DEMO scale, replacement more frequent than every couple years would be devastating, and it is not even trying to make commercial profitability.

    I'm not saying these problems are insurmountable, but multiple reports and summaries of the state of fusion research have named material properties as the biggest unknown and potential issue. A dedicated facility is needed to test these materials, because su

  36. Re:sunfire / in my stellerator / makes me... happy by Rei · · Score: 1

    Fast neutron cross scattering sections in the couple MeV range barely vary over more than the range of 1-10 barns

    1-10 barns is, of course, by definition, an order of magnitude. There is a massive difference between 10 barns and 1 barn. Tenfold, to be precise. ;)

    More to the point, you can't just combine all cross sections like that. The energy imparted from an elastic collision isn't the same as from an inelastic collsiion, which isn't the same as an (n, gamma), and so forth. Elastic collisions are particularly low energy, particularly the higher Z the target. Taking them out of the equation yields much greater differences between materials in the range of a couple MeV. The upper end of the neutron energies are "somewhat" similar (up to about one order of magnitude), but down below 6 or 7 MeV or so there's quite a few orders of magnitude difference.

    Likewise, total cross sections have no bearing on the accumulation of impurities in the material. The particular cross sections are relevant not only in terms of reaction rate, but also what sort of impurities you tend to accumulate and what effect they have on the properties of the material. Which of course varies greatly depending on what exactly they are.

    Integration of annealing cycles into blanket design is not brought up enough in some design studies, but is a consideration to help

    It's not a side issue, it's a fundamental issue to the design of a material designed for high temperature operation under a high neutron flux.

    Blanket design is extremely constrained by tritium breeder ratio to ensure more tritium is produced than used, which squeezes volume allowed to be used by coolant, ... but they have much lower neutron flux to worry about. Gen 4 reactor designs are in the 500-1000 C temperature range, exceeding in some cases what is thought reasonable for fusion blanket design. ... Blanket replacement is considerably more complex than fuel replacement in a fission reactor

    Perhaps they've been heading in a different direction since I was last reading on the topic, but I was under the impression that a prime blanket material under consideration was FLiBe. Which operates in a temperature range of 459-1430C, and is its own coolant. That doesn't change what the first wall has to tolerate, but as for the blanket itself, you have no "structural properties" to maintain, and cooling is only limited by the speed that you can cycle it.

    The last paper I read on the subject also suggested that for breeding purposes one needs not only beryllium (they were reporting really poor results with high-Z multipliers), but the optimum ratio (to my surprise) worked out to be significantly more beryllium than lithium. So building structural elements out of beryllium serves double purpose, you don't have the excuse of "I need to use steel because it's cheaper" - you need the beryllium either way. It's strong, low density, similar melting point to steel, but retains strength better with heat, and highly thermally conductive. Beryllium swelling from helium accumulation stops at 750C+ as helium release occurs. So pairing a beryllium first wall with a FLiBe-based blanket seems like a very appropriate option.

    Please don't get me wrong, I'm not at all disputing the great amount of engineering work left to do. I'm just more optimistic that appropriate solutions will be found. Perhaps I'm just naive in that regard ;)

    --
    It's times like this I wish I had a friend named 'The Professor'.
  37. Re:sunfire / in my stellerator / makes me... happy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    1-10 barns is, of course, by definition, an order of magnitude. T

    But it is not "many orders of magnitude."

    Taking them out of the equation yields...

    But then you're taking out the dominant effect. The high energy elastic collisions above keV range is going to cause displacements, at which point it comes down to just total number of impacts. The total cross section for higher energies is plenty for estimating displacement related problems, as the inelastic effects are too much smaller to make much total difference in that regard.

    Likewise, total cross sections have no bearing on the accumulation of impurities in the material. The particular cross sections are relevant not only in terms of reaction rate, but also what sort of impurities you tend to accumulate and what effect they have on the properties of the material. Which of course varies greatly depending on what exactly they are.

    Which is why hydrogen and helium implantation rates were also mentioned separately, because those are going to be there regardless of what material you use because of the neutrons and potential high energy alphas you have involved (despite the magnetic fields). There are plenty of other effects and transmutation is a n issue too, but the number of displacements scales with the number of interactions you would expect and the number of impurities for a given material in the volume close to the source (as opposed to total number of impurities).

    That doesn't change what the first wall has to tolerate, but as for the blanket itself, you have no "structural properties" to maintain, and cooling is only limited by the speed that you can cycle it.

    You still need the plumbing to circulate it at sufficient rates that can deal with the pressures and temperatures involved, and possible issues with induced currents from disruptions depending on how much of a problem they will be in advanced designs.

    So pairing a beryllium first wall with a FLiBe-based blanket seems like a very appropriate option.

    Research papers are still working on many different designs, because they don't know what the long term damage and performance will be. There are people still arguing for circulating water and helium based systems. Some materials will accumulate defects in clusters, and beryllium doesn't do as well with porosity. Pretty much every design I've seen still has some amount of structural steel, with some using steel bonded to beryllium to try to combine their advantages. The first wall itself may have unexpected effects too, as there have been enough surprises about how tungsten basically turns into an open foam under some similar such conditions.

    Please don't get me wrong, I'm not at all disputing the great amount of engineering work left to do. I'm just more optimistic that appropriate solutions will be found. Perhaps I'm just naive in that regard ;)

    I expect solutions to be found, but not without the research since many surprises have already come up in much less harsh conditions. But the current state amounts to a big unknown, because there is a lot of difficult getting material scientists involved in fusion research. Despite the history of it being pointed out as one of the big things needing to be addressed, it seems to be the last one to get addressed by various programs and funding agencies.

  38. Re:sunfire / in my stellerator / makes me... happy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No, there's nothing unfair about the criticism. At all!

    You state "we can viably produce fusion power today. The real question [...] is, what is it going to cost?" As though those are 2 different issues! From an engineering point of view, OK yes, they are 2 different issues. However they are fused from any practical/commercial perspective. And therefore when you portray fusion as "viable" today, well no it isn't viable.

    When you talk to an average citizen and he's asking, "where's my fusion power?", he's not interested in technology demos. When you talk to private sector backers, she's not interested in engineering samples. When you talk to government decision makers, they are not interested in proof-of-concept tabletop demonstrations. If you ask for funding of a commercial fusion reactor, you better have your ducks in a row! And they aren't in a row, in fact they aren't even close.

    Fusion power is still 50 years away because we really don't know how far away it is. No one can tell you when the first commercial demonstration plant will be built. No one knows what fusion technology it will be built with. No one knows how much it will cost. No one knows where it will be built. No one knows how the energy harvesting will be done. No one knows how neutron enbrittlement will be handled. No one knows what the duty cycle of the fusion reaction will be.

    In short, the unknowns are still vast. And it reeks of "the boy who cried wolf" when people like yourself claim that somehow, the challenges are small and mere details that can be handled by any engineer with a 2 year contract to do so! This is the problem with fans of fusion. They have repeatedly raised expectations that cannot be fulfilled and it created a big credibility problem.

    Stop it! Just stop. Fusion is a long-term research project. If we are lucky, in 50 years we might get our first commercial fusion power plant. Maybe. And if our commercial fission experience holds true, it will be an entire generation or more beyond that before fusion power is seen as a routine, every day possibility. One competitive with other power sources.