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'Rogue Scientists' Could Exploit Gene Editing Technology, Experts Warn (theguardian.com)

A senior geneticist and a bioethicist warned on Friday that they fear "rogue scientists" operating outside the bounds of law, and agreed with a US intelligence chief's assertion this week that gene editing technology could have huge, and potentially dangerous, consequences. Recent advances in genetics allow scientists to edit DNA quickly and accurately, making research into diseases, such as cystic fibrosis and cancer, easier than ever before. But researchers increasingly caution that they have to work with extreme care, for fear that gene editing could be deployed as bioterrorism or, in a more likely scenario, result in an accident that could make humans more susceptible to disease rather than less.

28 of 213 comments (clear)

  1. Zombies by NotInHere · · Score: 4, Funny

    result in an accident that could make humans more susceptible to disease rather than less.

    Zombies? Where is my shotgun when I need it?

    1. Re:Zombies by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      Zombies? Where is my shotgun when I need it?

      If you don't know, then guess what? You're going to be playing the part of "Zombie" during the apocalypse. You won't need a shotgun, just tasty, tasty brains.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    2. Re: Zombies by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 2

      Go tell it to the Progressives in the anti-vaccine movement:

      As it turns out, there are about equal numbers of progressive and conservative anti-vaxxers. It's not a political issue, merely what the boys down at the shop call stupid assholes.

      http://www.slate.com/articles/...

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
  2. vague handwaving by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    “The infectious agent responsible for bubonic plague, if altered through Crispr,” he said, “could potentially be used as a WMD. Currently, we have effective treatment against it. But if it were altered, it could potentially become resistant to these treatments and thus be deadly.”

    There are plenty of infectious agents that we don't have treatments against, so why would anybody go through the trouble of modifying bubonic plague, instead of just picking one of those? Why bubonic plague, an organism that is transmitted by fleas? And why haven't terrorists used biological weapons successfully before if there is such a risk from them?

    Furthermore, for the kinds of changes a terrorist would want to make to bacteria or viruses, they wouldn't need CRISPR; CRISPR is mostly useful for targeted modifications in higher organisms.

    The whole thing is just homeland security and bioethicists trying to get attention and funding; it's bullshit.

    1. Re:vague handwaving by JoeMerchant · · Score: 3, Interesting

      There are plenty of infectious agents that we don't have treatments against, so why would anybody go through the trouble of modifying bubonic plague, instead of just picking one of those? Why bubonic plague, an organism that is transmitted by fleas?

      A. because it sounds scary, most people know something about the Black Death.

      B. because of plausible deniability, it is widespread in the environment and might mutate on its own.

      C. because of limited scope and speed of spread (flea vector), what's the point in killing _everyone_ when you can just kill mostly your enemies?

      And why haven't terrorists used biological weapons successfully before if there is such a risk from them?

      Are you sure they haven't?

    2. Re:vague handwaving by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 2

      > so why would anybody go through the trouble of modifying bubonic plague, instead of just picking one of those?

      To make it "pneumonic", or airborne and spreadable by coughing for those without The CDC apparently has some fascinating war game style test scenarios of exactly that sort of change in a known, highly lethal pathogen. They;re quite frightening: once the infection rate progresses beyond certain quite low levels, there is _no way_ to contain the diseases effectively in today's modern, highly mobile economy's and travel practices.

    3. Re:vague handwaving by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      And why haven't terrorists used biological weapons successfully before if there is such a risk from them?

      Biological weapons have a number of serious drawbacks that make them unattractive as weapons to terrorists:

      1. Production of large enough quantities for an attack requires laboratory and light industrial type equipment with consumables and all of the support and logistics necessary to procure and operate said equipment. Countries where terrorism is a problem are generally poverty stricken, have little or no functioning government or infrastructure and are short on just about everything, including fuel and food. This makes biological weapons relatively expensive in the bang vs buck department and if Bin Laden's captured papers are anything to go by, terrorists tend to be cheapskates. The news reports of the papers captured during the Bin Laden raid, for example, mentioned arguments over the cost of replacement car parts for a cell operating in Yemen, among other things.

      2. Unlike chemicals or shrapnel, effective dispersal of a biological agent that doesn't also destroy the agent itself in the process requires some fairly sophisticated engineering. Terrorists working in primitive conditions with improvised explosive devices are probably not up to the task. Moreover, the use cases for these dispersal systems are either small scale or difficult and expensive and as we know, terrorists are a notoriously cheap bunch.

      3. Without sophisticated storage and complex preservation techniques, the shelf life of bioweapons is short which makes them a use them or lose them proposition for terrorists.

      4. Finally, unless a large number of people are infected, which is unlikely in a small scale terrorist attack, the damage will be very limited at best. This is especially true if the attack occurs in a first world nation where medical care is both sophisticated and abundant. Astute readers will note that aid workers infected in Africa with the Ebola virus recovered fully after being flown here to the United States and treated successfully.

      In conclusion, bioweapons are unlikely to be a serious problem even if the terrorists have the backing of a nation state. The economics of the attack are simply too poor and no nation would want to face the retribution that would surely follow when the United States inevitably discovered who was responsible. For example, notice how quickly the Syrian government surrendered their chemical weapons stockpiles when they thought that the United States would become directly involved in their civil war if they refused. The United States and allied nations ought to be focusing instead on more plausible methods of terrorist attack and how to prevent them instead of worrying about things that only happen in Tom Clancy novels or Hollywood movie plots.

    4. Re:vague handwaving by lars_stefan_axelsson · · Score: 2

      Are you sure they haven't?

      Well we know it's been tried, but the attacks weren't successful. It's interesting to note that the one terrorist organisation that had the wherewithal to produce both biological and chemical agents, gave up on their biological vector since they couldn't get it to work, and went the chemical route instead. (And if they had only tried to come up with a delivery system worth the name, the number of deaths could easily surpassed 9/11. Why they didn't, I haven't seen any info on.)

      So, if you have enough biological skills to make bioweapons, chemicals are an easier, and more certain route, at present that is. So the question is if CRISP is enough of a game changer to change the economics in favour of biologicals over chemicals. Sure, there is a holy grail of e.g. ethnic targeting, that you can't achieve with chemicals, but I'd say that's sci-fi for the foreseeable future. As it stands, chemicals are a lot simpler than gene splicing and editing.

      May you live in interesting times and all that.

      --
      Stefan Axelsson
    5. Re:vague handwaving by lars_stefan_axelsson · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well, that's a general trend. Fewer people can create more mayhem with less resources now than before. (Maybe that is the Fermi paradox...)

      Now, I'm not sure it's all that easy to "print up something harmful" just yet. And my point was rather, that if you have a bio-reactor that can print up viruses left, right and centre, then you could have a chemical reactor to make you sarin gas, at half the price.

      However, even though the capabilities for mayhem are legio, we don't see that much mayhem, so there are other mechanisms at play as well. If twenty years in the security field has taught me anything, it's that the overwhelming majority are nice people, and not the immoral bastards that modern "economic theory" claim we all are.

      But, when, how and if we reach a tipping point, that is both a difficult and of course an important question. Lots of sci-fi speculating on that very subject (I'm partial to Rainbow's End, by V. Vinge), but one also has to remember that the devil is in the details, so it's not a simple linear extrapolation.

      I'm all for making society a better place, and of course bad surroundings make more bad people. So we could at least start by trying to not make things worse... If we reach the point where all it takes is a single loon however, all bets are of course off. And that's the scary part.

      --
      Stefan Axelsson
  3. Re:hitler's brain by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 2

    Why did they save that?

    So it could eventually be put in the body of a Great White Shark.

    --
    #DeleteChrome
  4. Gun control to the rescue by Kohath · · Score: 2, Funny

    Fortunately, we know from gun controllers what all the arguments are for regulating something during a moral panic:

    - We must regulate this assault science.
    - No more than 7 strands of DNA -- why would anyone ever need more than that?
    - Scientists must register and be fingerprinted by their local sherrif.
    - They must keep all their test tubes in a regulation safe when not in use.
    - Scientists shouldn't have access to automatic equipment. No military-style scientific equipment either.
    - One equipment purchase per scientist per month.
    - Buying scientific equipment for another scientist will be a felony.
    - Convicted felons won't be allowed to possess scientific equipment.
    - Scientific equipment will only be allowed to be sold through a licensed dealer, with Federal background checks.

    These and other common-sense controls will help keep us safe from these rogue scientists. We must enact them now, before it's too late!

    1. Re:Gun control to the rescue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I was a research assistant at a large university in the U.S. for 15 years and you are not too far from reality.

      "Scientists must register and be fingerprinted by their local sherrif"

                I had to do this, the odds of having to do this goes up with your lab's biosafety level.

      "They must keep all their test tubes in a regulation safe when not in use."

                See above.

      "Scientists shouldn't have access to automatic equipment. No military-style scientific equipment either."

                  That's ok, undergrads are cheaper. Besides, you'd be surprised how many biologists are technically inept.

      "One equipment purchase per scientist per month."

                That would be every scientists' wet dream.

      "Buying scientific equipment for another scientist will be a felony."

                Diverting grant money is a no-no.

      "Convicted felons won't be allowed to possess scientific equipment."

                Not so much equipment, but felons are denied access to certain chemicals and biological agents.

      "Scientific equipment will only be allowed to be sold through a licensed dealer, with Federal background checks."

                Kinda true at national labs.

  5. Designer Babies? by jennen · · Score: 2

    "Some of these labs might alter particular genes to create so-called “designer babies”, with tailored features that range from height and eye color to disease immunity." Who came up with the term designer babies? Sounds so inhuman. Babies are not accessories like designer handbags or designer shoes.

    1. Re:Designer Babies? by CanadianMacFan · · Score: 2

      And should babies also come with a set of options like those designer handbags or shoes? Would you like a boy or girl? What colour of hair and eyes will they have? How tall should they be? Average intelligence or above average? Should they be athletic or not?

      When you start designing something then people have a tendency to start calling it a designer something. Maybe it's not the name that's not inhuman but what is being named.

  6. Re:Overblown by Dr.+Spork · · Score: 2

    The splicing and editing - that mechanical stuff - really is quite easy with CRISPR. What we don't know is how to do useful stuff with DNA. But if we're trying to do something destructive instead of useful, I think that doesn't take many deep insights. We just have to find some sexually reproducing organism with quick life cycle that plays a key role in ecosystems, attach some self-destructive genes to a gene drive, and let them loose. The release itself would completely escape notice, and irreparable harm could happen in weeks.

    Once we learn more about how to safely do useful stuff with CRISPR, we might have tools to reverse this kind of terrorism before its harm is irreversible. But right now, we're basically helpless. So maybe we will never be more vulnerable to destructive uses of gene editing than we are now. You think there aren't some millenialist nuts in the world who are trying to figure out how to CRISPR together a red heifer and a plague of locusts? I'd be shocked if there weren't parallel efforts to make various end-of-the-world prophecies come true.

  7. Re:Overblown by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Scientists cannot edit DNA quickly and accurately.

    A couple of years ago that statement was correct. CRISPR has really changed the game.

    Now, they often don't know what a given stretch of DNA does, so they can't predict what the change will do, but they can now say, "I want to change this sequence right here to this exact sequence of bases," and do it quickly and accurately.

  8. Re:Overblown by JoeMerchant · · Score: 5, Interesting

    We've got the assembler / disassembler, but are clueless as to how 99.9% of the code works and thus can't even begin to make a meaningful compiler.

  9. Re:Is this just click bait? by ArylAkamov · · Score: 3, Funny

    BIOETHICISTS HATE HIM!

    See how he raised his own undead army with One Weird Trick!

  10. History Channel's new series: by meglon · · Score: 2

    Gene splicing autonomous killer robots brought to Earth by aliens find Jesus.... riding on Bigfoot's shoulders.

    --
    Fascism: An authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization. See also: NAZI's
  11. Roguelike Scientists by PopeRatzo · · Score: 2

    Procedurally-generated and perma-death.

    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
  12. Re: OMG! by Z00L00K · · Score: 2

    Too many are creationists. That's the largest US problem today. Science is dying in the US.

    --
    If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
  13. Nice... by WorBlux · · Score: 2

    I for only welcome our the new hallucinogenic flu season.

  14. Genetic Backdoor by mentil · · Score: 2

    The US Intelligence chief is just afraid that the scientists will find the backdoor they left in the human genome, and edit it out.

    --
    Corruption is convincing someone that the selfless ideal is the same as their selfish ideal.
  15. Re:Wipe out your enemy by 0111+1110 · · Score: 2

    I don't see why viruses couldn't be modified to target different races.

    I don't see why a computer program cannot be made sentient. Or why we don't have flying cars with warp drive. Oh wait...

    --
    Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
  16. Re:Beast With 7 Heads & 10 Horns by RDW · · Score: 3, Funny

    'It's thanks to the wonders of genetic engineering that soon there will be an end to hunger, disease, pollution, even war. I have created things that will change the world for the better. For instance, here is a monkey with four asses.'

  17. Rogue scientists? Riiight... by SlovakWakko · · Score: 2

    More like established and wealthy governments, in the name of democracy, national security and the usual world domination. It wasn't rogue scientists who have developed chemical weapons, the atom bomb etc.

  18. OMG! | grep [real threats] by TheRealHocusLocus · · Score: 2

    OMG! | grep [confirmed threats]

    The world is going to be hit by an asteroid unless we spend trillions on an asteroid defense shield!

    For all that other stuff the real risk hinges on issues of personal, political and economic RESTRAINT
    Everyone will be trying to sell you their favorite answers to those other 'threats' 'till Judgement Day.
    They'll also be pushing answers (eg DNA splicing pathogen research for 'defense') that carry extreme risk.
    The asteroid danger is the only real confirmed existential threat here.
    It will require unanimous effort and the 'weaponization of space' but until it is done we're just waiting to die suddenly.
    Even the US population being luddites and sheep is not a problem, if you come up with a low-tech solution and manage to enough of convince them.

    --
    <blink>down the rabbit hole</blink>
  19. Re: One super power please by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 2

    > This is largely a solved problem -- a good percentage of women in developed countries elect to deliver via cesarean section.

    A caesarian section is a hack, not a solution. On every level.

    They are roughly 3 times as dangerous for the mother as a normal vaginal birth where both the fetus and mother are otherwise healthy. The women who "elect to deliver" via caesarian section without specific medical reason to do so are generally being misled about the risks and potential benefits. Even with no negative outcome, having a surgeon cut a foot long slice in your abdomen and reach around to re-arrange things is not a "solved problem", anymore than organ transplants make cancer, blocked arteries, or physical trauma "solved problems".