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TPP Change Means Drastically Higher Penalties For Copyright "Infringement" (eff.org)

Mephistophocles writes: A sneaky and underhanded change to the TPP, spotted by the EFF and summarized here by Jeremy Malcolm, means much stiffer penalties for copyright "infringement:"

Under the TPP's original terms, a country could limit the exposure of the owner of such a website to prison time, or to the seizure and possible destruction of their server, on the grounds that by definition their infringement didn't cause any lost sales to the copyright owner. (Note that they would be liable for civil damages to the copyright owner in any case.)

Although a country still has the option to limit criminal penalties to "commercial scale" infringements (which is so broadly defined that it could catch even a non-profit subtitles website), the new language compels TPP signatories to make these penalties available even where those infringements cause absolutely no impact on the copyright holder's ability to profit from the work. This is a massive extension of the provision's already expansive scope.

Perhaps most concerning, however, is the fact that this means those stiff penalties apply even when there is no harm or threat of harm to the copyright owner caused by the infringement.

Think about it. What sense is there in sending someone to jail for an infringement that causes no harm to the copyright holder, whether they complain about it or not? And why should it matter that the copyright holder complains about something that didn't affect them anyway? Surely, if the copyright holder suffers no harm, then a country ought to be able to suspend the whole gamut of criminal procedures and penalties, not only the availability of ex officio action.

This is no error -- or if it is, then the parties were only in error in agreeing to a proposal that was complete nonsense to begin with.

192 comments

  1. Trust the jury ... by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Good luck finding a jury that will send someone to jail when no harm has been done. Now everyone, please bone up on jury nullification.

    --
    "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    1. Re:Trust the jury ... by BitterOak · · Score: 4, Informative

      Good luck finding a jury that will send someone to jail when no harm has been done. Now everyone, please bone up on jury nullification.

      The jury doesn't send people to jail: they vote guilty or not guilty and the judge decides the sentence, expect possibly in death penalty cases. And, in the U.S. at least, the jury isn't allowed to be told what the possible sentence is.

      --
      If I can be modded down for being a troll, can I be modded up for being an orc, or a balrog?
    2. Re:Trust the jury ... by MrKaos · · Score: 1

      Good luck finding a jury that will send someone to jail when no harm has been done. Now everyone, please bone up on jury nullification.

      Won't the Investor State Dispute Settlement clauses change the way they process these cases?

      --
      My ism, it's full of beliefs.
    3. Re:Trust the jury ... by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 1

      Good luck finding a jury that will send someone to jail when no harm has been done. Now everyone, please bone up on jury nullification.

      Do civil suits have juries? Usually, they are just judges listening to arguments and if the law specifies the punishment, the judge's role is merely one of making sure proper procedure is followed versus determining a just settlement.

    4. Re:Trust the jury ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why can't someone set up a copyright infringement company in Japan and then sue the american government for making laws that prevent them from making money?

    5. Re:Trust the jury ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nor can you petition a jury for jury nullification. Its automatic mistrial.

    6. Re:Trust the jury ... by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      It's pretty common knowledge what the penalties are for various crimes, such as 1st and 2nd degree murder, etc - anyone who reads the news will know this, with all the shootings going on.

      A jury can be presented with several different possible verdicts, each with a different penalty, and pick the one they want - so in effect, the jury does decide to a great part what the penalty shall be.

      And all this (the arguments you threw up) are irrelevant to my point - juries know that it's a criminal trial; they know that there's the possibility of jail time. So as I said, good luck finding someone to send someone to jail when there's been no harm.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    7. Re:Trust the jury ... by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      You can't send someone to prison without a trial. Not even for a traffic ticket.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    8. Re:Trust the jury ... by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1
      Did you even read the SUMMARY? It's right there -

      Perhaps most concerning, however, is the fact that this means those stiff penalties apply even when there is no harm or threat of harm to the copyright owner caused by the infringement.

      Now how hard was that?

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    9. Re: Trust the jury ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or maybe bone up on jurors who are spending time in jail for attempting nullification...

    10. Re:Trust the jury ... by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      We're talking about the possibility of criminal penalties, you know, jail time ...

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    11. Re:Trust the jury ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I'm pretty sure the entire point of the TPP is to put more power in the hands of corporations and circumvent sovereign nations legal systems. If a nation is a member of the treaty then the treaty agreement supersedes the will of their people and the laws of the land regardless of what new laws they pass through their local governing bodies. This is about taking power away from people so that corporations can do whatever they want with impunity. They can sue for monetary damages if they even suspect some law will impact future profits. If only the horse buggy whip manufacturers had laws like these way back when to protect their industry...

    12. Re: Trust the jury ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      @BitterOak -- REALLY!? What sea-lawyer scum covered rock did you crawl out from under?

    13. Re:Trust the jury ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, you can. People are held in various levels of penitentiaries all the time while awaiting trail before a sentence is passed. Have you ever heard a judgement that includes "time served"?

    14. Re:Trust the jury ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      If you know enough about jury nullification, you're not on the jury.

    15. Re:Trust the jury ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This, if they know you know about Jury Nullification, neither the judge nor the prosecutor want you there. Many judges feel that option takes away from their power and as such wants it setup where that option isn't on the table.

    16. Re:Trust the jury ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Common knowledge? What is the penalty for second degree bribery of an official in New Jersey?

    17. Re:Trust the jury ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      Whatever you paid them to do?

    18. Re:Trust the jury ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Civil trials may have juries in the USA. This depends on the plaintiff, defense, and particular reason for the civil sue.
      While this does not usually happen, it does happen and the Law has provisions for the use of a jury.

    19. Re:Trust the jury ... by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      Infringement isn't determined by financial damage. Infringement is infringement.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    20. Re:Trust the jury ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      Tell that to Kevin Mitnick. He was held in prison for four and a half years without trial. He was in maximum security and solitary for some of that time. source

    21. Re:Trust the jury ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You're thinking about this backwards.

      Japan and the US have different views on copyright infringement, and what constitutes commercial copyright infringement in the US, is considered "fanart/doujinshi" in Japan and is generally tolerated by the Japanese, but the Americans will have none of it.

      Now I'm not going to say the TPP is good, because like every good intentioned policy, there will be overreach (most child-porn related laws overreach into comics/drawings and video game characters, hence why there are no children in ANY R-rated content in America) , but in this case I think the TPP critics are looking for a bogeyman in the shape of penalties instead of a bogeyman in the shape of counterfeiters.

      Did you know that Kraft sells counterfeit "parmesean" cheese in the US?
      Did you know that LVMH items are all handmade in France, so any LVMH items that come from China are certainly counterfeit? Likewise LVMH only uses high quality durable leather in their goods. Counterfeit LVMH items range from being made of plastic to being high end counterfeits that are "upside down" in their patterns. It's pretty hard to make a 100% matching counterfeit for cheaper than the original item.

      Now above are real everyday examples of counterfeits that should not exist, but they do. Kraft sells fake cheese because the US won't respect certain labeling requirements from European countries. This same product name confusion also applies to drugs. Generic Acetaminophen (Tylenol) can have any kinds of fillers or dyes as long as it doesn't carry the Tylenol trademarks. Think about that when you order drugs online. Unless the laws change to require that a product must have the exact same formulation to be marketed as the same trade name (weather it's Parmesan cheese or Acetaminophen), Americans will keep getting counterfeit products marketed as one thing, but containing cheap fillers to make them cheaper than the real thing.

      Those are the cases where indeed the copyright holder suffers damages from the marketing end.

      Slashdot, and various open-source people ignore this stuff and laser-focus onto the piracy aspect and claim that nobody suffers any harm from infringement. Which is a purely rubbish and ignorant view. There isn't a day that goes by that I'm not sending a DMCA notice to yet another 4chan clone that operates out of Romania but is protected by Cloudflare, that cloudflare refuses to pull the DNS for these sites when they don't comply.

    22. Re:Trust the jury ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      so what?

      usually one needs to establish standing to sue, and that requires actual harm.

    23. Re:Trust the jury ... by KGIII · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I don't know if this is true. I've sat on more than one jury and I'm quite aware of Jury Nullification. I can say that nobody has ever, not once, mentioned it while I was present. However, I know what it is and when I'd feel it is appropriate to utilize that power. I've yet been on a jury where it was an actual concern. Unlike most, I don't mind jury duty. I kind of like it. I'd do it more often, if they'd let me. It's pretty boring most of the time. But, I enjoy it and I pay attention and I understand the burden. I'm aware of the consequences of a poor juror and jury. Being an obstacle in the way of a miscarriage of justice is a good thing to be. I like jury duty.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    24. Re:Trust the jury ... by PinkyGigglebrain · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If only more people shared your view. The USA's legal systems might actually start work as originally intended.

    25. Re:Trust the jury ... by debrain · · Score: 1

      The jury doesn't send people to jail: they vote guilty or not guilty and the judge decides the sentence, expect possibly in death penalty cases. And, in the U.S. at least, the jury isn't allowed to be told what the possible sentence is.

      Close, but not *quite* it.

      Jurors are finders of fact. They determine what happened, "as a matter of fact.", so to speak.

      Judges are finders of law. They determine a conclusion, "as a matter of law."

      Judges can also be finders of law, where there are no jurors and in other situations.

      So a juror can find, as a matter of fact, that someone intended to and actually killed someone else, and thereby committed homicide. A judge can find that as a matter of law the act of homicide is a punishable offence, and compel this person to incarceration for a requisite period of time.

      In that sense, jurors do indeed determine the presence or absence of culpability, or wrongful guilt.

      Sentence can vary depending on the facts found by the jurors. Jurors can determine whether there was intention to murder, whether it was planned, an act of emotion, or self-defence.

      What jurors find, in other words, is not strictly limited to the presence or absence of guilt.

    26. Re:Trust the jury ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The treaty does nothing in relation to local laws.
      For the countries to continue to be a part of the treaty, they will all need to either amend existing or create new laws so they can comply with the terms of the treaty.
      No one can charge me with a criminal offence if it does not break a law. A treaty is not a law.

    27. Re:Trust the jury ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      civil suits don't revolve around laws, they're based on harm.
      The government only acts as a mediator between the parties, they decide how much harm has been done, on the balance of probabilities, and what the reparations should be.

    28. Re:Trust the jury ... by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      It's pretty common knowledge what the penalties are for various crimes, such as 1st and 2nd degree murder, etc - anyone who reads the news will know this, with all the shootings going on.

      No, it's not.

      As another person already pointed out, penalties vary a lot from state to state, and even municipality to municipality in some cases, depending on the charge.

      A lot of people in this thread today seem to think there is some kind of universal criminal code in the United States, but it just isn't so. Most criminal laws -- including rape and murder -- are State matters, and not just the sentencing but the actual laws vary from state to state. Similar? Yes, in most cases. The same? No.

      There is a body of Federal criminal laws, to be sure, but those are mostly concerned with other things, unless someone who is otherwise a criminal crosses state lines.

    29. Re:Trust the jury ... by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 2

      Now I'm not going to say the TPP is good, because like every good intentioned policy, there will be overreach

      The assumption of good intentions is utterly drowned out by the plethora of blatant evidence of special-interest greed. Check the EFF website if you don't believe.

      most child-porn related laws overreach into comics/drawings and video game characters, hence why there are no children in ANY R-rated content in America

      Nonsense. In 1996 the U.S. Supreme Court effectively ruled (paraphrased summary): in order for material to be child pornography, it has to (A) be actual pornography, and (B) involve actual children.

      The exact wording of the Federal law Congress passed (the CPPA) is pretty much irrelevant, because SCOTUS limited its reach.

      That is not to say animated content wouldn't be considered obscene. In many cases it might be. But in this context obscenity and child pornography law are pretty much separate issues.

    30. Re:Trust the jury ... by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1
      U.S. Constitution, Amendment 7:

      In Suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any Court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.

    31. Re:Trust the jury ... by KGIII · · Score: 5, Insightful

      We've also stopped upholding our end of the social contract. It is our job to observe the courts and to be knowledgeable in their doings. Instead, we rely on yellow journalism, politics played as a team sport, and hope the EFF or ACLU stands up if it's too grievous. We've stopped observing the courts and power that goes unchecked has only one direction to go, it's natural - it's wrong, but it's natural. This is a rhetorical question but when was the last time you took one of your days off from work to observe the local district court and watched to observe justice was being served? We rely on someone else to tell us when to be outraged and offer no oversight on the smaller things - that's how it got this big.

      And that's a royal we. That's us, the collective. There's some truth to the adage that you get the government you deserve and the other adage about being ruled by consent. Don't think I have the answers, I know I do not. There's a lot of things that are complicated but we seem hell bent on making them more complicated than they need to be. I don't know why. I can speculate why. I can even present what I think is a logical argument for holding those beliefs. However, it's off-topic, long, and I'm lazy tonight. But, I'll write you that novella if you want one...

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    32. Re:Trust the jury ... by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      usually one needs to establish standing to sue, and that requires actual harm

      Your standing is established by showing that you created the work, and are thus the copyright holder. The "harm" can be as simple as having your work reproduced without your permission. A copyright holder that hasn't registered the work has limited options in court (usually limited to things like forcing take-downs, or getting the amount of compensation that would normally be available based on the creator's history of selling such work - not very helpful for most amateurs), but putting a stop to the infringement is always the least that can be done. If the work is actually registered (with the feds), then there's the option to seek punitive damages in federal court, which can be a big deal for everybody involved, cost-wise.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    33. Re:Trust the jury ... by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 2

      "The jury doesn't send people to jail: they vote guilty or not guilty and the judge decides the sentence, expect possibly in death penalty cases. And, in the U.S. at least, the jury isn't allowed to be told what the possible sentence is."

      But as juries catch on that disproportionate sentencing is taking place, they will vote to nullify.

    34. Re: Trust the jury ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or maybe bone up on jurors who are spending time in jail for attempting nullification...

      Care to name one?

    35. Re:Trust the jury ... by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 2

      "This, if they know you know about Jury Nullification, neither the judge nor the prosecutor want you there."

      That's why you never stand up and proclaim yourself a believer in nullification. At trial, just be prepared to 'show your work' in a jury poll as having judged on some element of the evidence and testimony, no matter how far-fetched may be your reasoning.

    36. Re:Trust the jury ... by readin · · Score: 1

      The problem is the government does way too much. If the government did 4 or 5 things, you could punish them when they screw just one of those up. When they're doing thousands and thousands of things it's hard to vote on one issue. And when the Federal government is controlling so much of our lives no one pays attention to local politics anyway.

      --
      I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
    37. Re:Trust the jury ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good luck finding a jury that will send someone to jail when no harm has been done. Now everyone, please bone up on jury nullification.

      It's always amusing to see comments from fools like you who post under the pretense that they know something about a subject
      on which they are utterly ignorant.

      Many people have been sent to prison for possession of marijuana despite the fact that they were not selling it. There are plenty of people with fascist leanings who will serve on juries and not think twice about sending someone to prison for copyright infringement.

      I don't know what you do for a living but you obviously aren't an attorney. Quit pretending you have the knowledge an attorney would have.

    38. Re:Trust the jury ... by KGIII · · Score: 1

      I can agree that such is one of the reasons. So... Err... Umm... I don't suppose you've got any suggestions, realistic ones, as to how we can change this? (Preferably without bloodshed.)

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    39. Re:Trust the jury ... by righteousness · · Score: 1

      Many countries don't have jury trials.

      --
      Don't fornicate. Seriously, just don't do it.
    40. Re:Trust the jury ... by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 2

      I don't suppose you've got any suggestions, realistic ones, as to how we can change this?

      1. Don't shirk jury duty.
      2. Vote.
      3. When you see injustice, speak up. This can be as simple as posting in your neighborhood forum (nextdoor.com, Yahoo groups, whatever).

    41. Re:Trust the jury ... by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Nor can you petition a jury for jury nullification. Its automatic mistrial.

      Only in 49 states. Not in New Hampshire.

    42. Re:Trust the jury ... by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 2

      ... with all the shootings going on.

      Shootings are at a 30 year low.

    43. Re:Trust the jury ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Your standing is established by showing that you created the work, and are thus the copyright holder. The "harm" can be as simple as having your work reproduced without your permission.

      That is easily prevented by not releasing said work.

      If you don't want information spread, don't spread it. If you want absolute control over information, well congratulations, the totalitarian state is on its way. Just don't think you will be on top.
      TPP is essentially a free pass for the ruling class to punish anyone they want without producing anything or proving anything.
      As long as you are one of the main corporations you don't need proof of ownership. If they see anything they want blocked they just do it.

    44. Re:Trust the jury ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      All the above, of course, applies to US courts. But TPP is worldwide - not every country has nullification.
      I suggest a campaign of boycott of Hollywood/media products. There are plenty of entertainment vehicles already out there (Project Gutenberg, anyone :-), of which Big Media get no cut. If enough people decided they just didn't have to see the latest movie/TV series, they might get the message.

    45. Re:Trust the jury ... by silentcoder · · Score: 0

      Aaah yes, the standard libertarian pipe dream. "If the government does nothing, they can't screw anything up.

      The problem is - with just about everything the government does - anybody else WILL do it MUCH worse.

      And for a lot of it, any price is too high a price - so it HAS to be done with tax money. There are some things that should not have to be earned - because only a psychopath would WANT to live in a world where not EVERYBODY has them.

      --
      Unicode killed the ASCII-art *
    46. Re:Trust the jury ... by silentcoder · · Score: 5, Informative

      >I'm pretty sure the entire point of the TPP is to put more power in the hands of corporations and circumvent sovereign nations legal systems.

      It's a trade agreement, that's literally the definition of trade agreements. Perhaps there was a time when it wasn't, I doubt that because "lost golden ages" invariably turn out to be unsubstantiated nostalgia but it definitely has been the definition of a trade agreement for at least the full 36 years I've been on this planet. A trade agreement is essentially governments agreeing to modify their laws to make it easier for corporations to profit in the other country - which is a nice way of saying "get rid of any pesky legal protections that may reduce the foreign company's ability to exploit the citizens of another country the way they do at home".

      --
      Unicode killed the ASCII-art *
    47. Re:Trust the jury ... by silentcoder · · Score: 1

      >Those are the cases where indeed the copyright holder suffers damages from the marketing end.

      Except that not a single one of your examples if a copyright case - those are all trademark cases. Trademark is generally misunderstood (and widely mispresented by lawyers) - it's not a right to a company, it's a consumer protection law. The *purpose* of trademark laws is to ensure that consumers can be reasonably certain that the product they buy is the product they *intended* to buy. It does have benefits for a company with a good name or brand (which is a reason for them to use it) but these benefits are not the intention of the law, they are merely a happy unintended consequence. A positive externality if you will.

      --
      Unicode killed the ASCII-art *
    48. Re:Trust the jury ... by silentcoder · · Score: 1

      And if you want a truly dysfunctional system - try South Africa, where well over half the population of our prisons have never been convicted of any crime whatsoever. They are all prisoners awaiting trial, a small fraction were denied bail - the rest simply could not afford bail.

      --
      Unicode killed the ASCII-art *
    49. Re:Trust the jury ... by silentcoder · · Score: 2

      Except that none of that is relevant since this isn't saying anything about civil cases or suing.
      This is requiring that states pass laws to *criminally* prosecute people for infringements even when there is no harm and even when the copyright holders does *not* object to the activity that is alleged to infringe.

      The kind of technical copyright infringements that this criminalizes are more likely to make money for the copyright holder than to deny him any. The example in the article - of a non-profit provider of subtitle files would likely *increase* sales of the source movie in countries where subtitles have not been released.

      Creative folk in general would almost never object to something like that, if anything it's flattering. The publishing companies on the other hand may because they overzealously (and pretty much automatedly) object to anything even when they have no standing and even when they stole the work in the first place. But that right there is the whole problem.
      Publishing companies should not be allowed to hold copyrights. Copyright law was created and intended to protect authors from publishers - it's an industrial regulation that was invented to restrict what publishing companies can do - it was never intended to, and never should have been allowed to, be subverted into working to their benefit.

      --
      Unicode killed the ASCII-art *
    50. Re:Trust the jury ... by loonycyborg · · Score: 1

      No, there's no actual societal harm in reproduction of work without permission. Thus enforcing this is empty waste of court's time, which should be spent on prosecuting murderers, rapist, robbers and other real criminals.

    51. Re:Trust the jury ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... with all the shootings going on.

      Shootings are at a 30 year low.

      One thing doesn't rule out the other.
      Just because it was worse doesn't mean that it is good.
      There could be a loot of shootings going on while still being on a 30 year low.

      "A 30 year low" is the same kind of argument as "we are not as bad as North Korea."
      The only thing it tells me is that you think it is fine as long as it doesn't reach the 30 year high.

    52. Re:Trust the jury ... by KGIII · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I do all that. It's a lonely task. I don't mean any disservice but I'm not sure how realistic it is. It requires a bit more participation - it's pretty lonely. I listen, I watch, I speak. I think that's my job but I think it's gonna take a whole lot more of us.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    53. Re:Trust the jury ... by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      No, there's no actual societal harm in reproduction of work without permission

      Right, because authors, musicians, photographers, graphic artists and the like - they're not part of society.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    54. Re:Trust the jury ... by currently_awake · · Score: 1

      The inmates at Gitmo would disagree with you.

    55. Re:Trust the jury ... by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      Most (maybe all) TIPP countries have juries.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    56. Re:Trust the jury ... by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      Anyone watching Law and Order, etc., knows about jury nullification. It's part of the culture now.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    57. Re:Trust the jury ... by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      As I pointed out, penalties for 1st and second degree murder, manslaughter, etc, are well known. These are major crimes. Lesser crimes, sure, not so much. But locals probably know what a speeding or parking fine looks like, and if they watch the news, they'll see what crooks get for various offenses, so they have an idea. Of course, if they live in a bubble world, that's their own doing.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    58. Re:Trust the jury ... by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      If you possess it, you bought it or otherwise obtained it, which is possession and trafficking in a controlled substance, so sure, they can throw your silly ass in jail, same as if you had prescription narcotics without a prescription. So who's the ignorant one now?

      Go buy a clue. Please.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    59. Re:Trust the jury ... by loonycyborg · · Score: 1

      Artificial restrictions on what you're doing with your audio/video/computing equipment don't benefit authors either. They don't benefit anyone and only assholes want them.

    60. Re:Trust the jury ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can attend court from time to time and attend your state and local government, and read their gazettes (Sorry, I'm not American, I'm not sure if this is the word you guys use, the record of proceedings).

    61. Re:Trust the jury ... by Delwin · · Score: 1

      See I was wondering when everyone looked at me funny when I mentioned nullification. Now I know why. I was educated in New Hampshire where it's commonly taught in school.

    62. Re:Trust the jury ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      *I* do that. Most people do not. We need more people doing that than just myself and a handful of others. How do we get there?

      Gotta post as AC - I'm nearly out of posts. It's KGIII

    63. Re:Trust the jury ... by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      So in other words you really can't address the point and you're trying to change the subject. Thought so.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    64. Re:Trust the jury ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1. I'm 36 this year and have never been asked to be part of a jury selection pool.

      2. I vote, but I vote for the minority party in my state which is outnumbered by at least 4:1 in both houses of the legislature. I make some minor impact on the city council election, but that's all. For anything but my local town, my vote doesn't matter.

      3. I can bitch all I want on-line and in town meetings. It accomplishes nothing. The best thing I can do, I think, is move to a state that's civilized.

    65. Re:Trust the jury ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      #1 - Then they'll just take it federal. Good luck with your jury nullification.
      #2 - The judge will issue a directed verdict and over-ride the jury.
      #3 - And how stupid do you have to be, to point out one tiny state, as somehow invalidating the general premise.

    66. Re:Trust the jury ... by loonycyborg · · Score: 1

      Incorrect. The point is that court's main objective is to repair harm done and there's no harm in this case.

    67. Re:Trust the jury ... by beastofburdon · · Score: 1

      Attending court and government gatherings are rather hard to do if you have a job.

    68. Re:Trust the jury ... by beastofburdon · · Score: 1

      The vast majority of "crimes" do not result in a jury trial, but plea bargain. The punishment under that plea bargain do not reflect the possible sentencing in a jury trial.

    69. Re:Trust the jury ... by beastofburdon · · Score: 1

      They also know next to nothing about the real accuracy of forensic evidence. They believe that forensic evidence is orders of magnitude more accurate than it really is.

    70. Re:Trust the jury ... by righteousness · · Score: 1

      I assume TIPP is a typo for TPP, and that you're not talking about something else. Out of 12 TPP countries, Brunei, Chile, Japan, Malaysia, Mexico, Peru and Singapore (that's 7 countries out of 12) do not have jury trials. That means less than half of TPP countries have juries. Definitely not most.

      --
      Don't fornicate. Seriously, just don't do it.
    71. Re:Trust the jury ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most countries don't have jury systems.

    72. Re:Trust the jury ... by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      And what does taking a plea bargain have to do with jury nullification? Nothing. And if all the accused always exercised their rights to a jury trial, the court system would collapse under the burden. Prosecutors in many cases are pushing plea bargains because there simply isn't the budget to try everyone, and they know it.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    73. Re:Trust the jury ... by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      You'd be surprised. DNA evidence, for example, has never been peer reviewed, and the math is totally screwed up when it comes to people of the same ethnicity, and it requires subjective interpretation as to whether there's a match or not.

      Defense lawyers are there to educate the jury on these problems. Then again, most jurors have a certain distrust of it to begin with.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    74. Re:Trust the jury ... by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      I assume TIPP is a typo for TPP, and that you're not talking about something else. Out of 12 TPP countries, Brunei, Chile, Japan, Malaysia, Mexico, Peru and Singapore (that's 7 countries out of 12) do not have jury trials. That means less than half of TPP countries have juries. Definitely not most.

      No, TTIP is NOT a typo. It's the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership - a proposed trade agreement between the European Union and the United States. Last I looked, Europe didn't include all those countries you listed.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    75. Re:Trust the jury ... by beastofburdon · · Score: 1

      It has everything to do with your assertion that people know what punishment someone will get for a crime. When people see the normal sentences given they are seeing the sentences given for plea bargains, not jury trials, which is what we are talking about here.

      Also, there would be no need for plea bargains if we had sane laws. Instead we have so many laws that it is literally impossible for any one person to read them all in a single lifetime, much less understand them all. Our justice system needs a complete reboot. Shitcan all the current laws and start over.

    76. Re:Trust the jury ... by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      The only jury that counts is the one in the country I'm living in. There's also the question (in Canada) as to whether the federal government can bind the provinces to such an agreement in areas where the provinces have jurisdiction. That's one of the good things about being a federation - it's like states rights on steroids.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    77. Re:Trust the jury ... by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      People also see the results of jury trials on the news and the web. They're the ones that get more attention. A plea bargain is a one-day footnote in the news compared to a juicy trial that goes on for weeks.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    78. Re:Trust the jury ... by righteousness · · Score: 1

      Well, the article is talking about TPP, so why are you talking about TIPP?

      --
      Don't fornicate. Seriously, just don't do it.
    79. Re:Trust the jury ... by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      Because the two go hand-in-hand, have many of the same provisions, and TIPP countries have juries.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
  2. So what about YouTube? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I imagine YouTube still gets to host millions of copyrighted videos.

    This will only go after the small guys, the big companies get to do whatever.

    1. Re: So what about YouTube? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Youtube is still the #1 pirate on the planet.

    2. Re: So what about YouTube? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nope, that's Cloudflare.

  3. Quotes? by ScentCone · · Score: 0, Troll

    Why place the word infringement in quotes? Does the OP not consider that to be real word, or consider it to be somehow incorrectly used? Is that just some lazy way of expressing disdain for the idea of copyrights in the first place? Will the OP's minions now "moderate" this post? Or are they being distracted because we're having such nice "weather" outside and using "slashdot" is a poor use of their "time?"

    --
    Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    1. Re:Quotes? by Carewolf · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Why place the word infringement in quotes? Does the OP not consider that to be real word, or consider it to be somehow incorrectly used? Is that just some lazy way of expressing disdain for the idea of copyrights in the first place? Will the OP's minions now "moderate" this post? Or are they being distracted because we're having such nice "weather" outside and using "slashdot" is a poor use of their "time?"

      The treaty has no concept of fair use, absolutely none... Just by referencing the summary now and saying that it puts something in quotes, would make you criminal according to TPP rules. When the treaty talks about "infringements", reasonable people have no choice but put it in quotation marks.

    2. Re:Quotes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      The wording in the treaty doesn't apply to any one. It's a guidance for each member country to craft their own changes to their own laws.

      No one is going to charge me under the Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement for copyright infringement.

      The only law that applies in my country has been passed as an act by parliament.
      The only way for a criminal charge to be valid is for it to be defined in an act.

      Also, there's this part from the treaty

      Each Party shall endeavour to achieve an appropriate balance in its copyright and related rights system, among other things by means of limitations or exceptions giving due consideration to legitimate purposes such as, but not limited to: criticism; comment; news reporting; teaching, scholarship, research, and other similar purposes.

      So fair use is in there. and it's up to each country to define it for themselves.

      Congratulations, you have been successfully misinformed.
      Before you continue to tell people what's in the TPP, you should check for yourself and not blindly believe everything someone says.

    3. Re:Quotes? by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      Or maybe "infringement" reflects a definition of the word that has been expanded way beyond reasonable by people who have no business meddling in the legislative process.

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    4. Re:Quotes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Why place the word infringement in quotes?

      If nowadays corporations make laws[1], laws lose their special status of social contract. I only abide by them when forced to.

      [1] to forestall your seemingly innocent questions: yes, that's what happening with CETA, TPP, TTIP et al.

    5. Re:Quotes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... up to each country to define it for themselves.

      Until a country with massive control over international banking, pharmaceutical manufacturing and international aviation tells you, 'your' definition of an appropriate balance.

  4. Does it matter who infringes ? by Alain+Williams · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I suspect that this will not be enforced when $LargeMediaCorp rips off pictures from a small, independent photographer and private individuals (& other similar).

  5. Gonna be on the side of Trump & Sanders on thi by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Virtually all "free trade" agreements have SCREWED the average American worker for the benefit of large companies. That's enough for me to hate the TPP.

  6. criminal cases have higher standards of proof by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    criminal cases have higher standards of proof then the cases there they just sue you.

    Also destruction of evidence by the cops will kill the case.

    1. Re:criminal cases have higher standards of proof by readin · · Score: 1

      Also destruction of evidence by the cops will kill the case.

      if they get caught

      --
      I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
    2. Re:criminal cases have higher standards of proof by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

      if they get caught?

      so the defense can say that they failed to give use the evidence so we move for a mistrial with prejudice

    3. Re:criminal cases have higher standards of proof by silentcoder · · Score: 1

      Only for evidence presented in court.
      Destroying evidence against the accused would be something only a very dumb cop would do. Evidence in favor of the accused however, can easily be "lost" so it is never presented by either side. Even the best defense lawyers can't present a move based on evidence they never knew existed.

      In many cases evidence proving somebody's innocence is only uncovered when the actual guilty person is prosecuted for a completely different crime years later. At which point the convicted person would have to request a retrial based on new evidence. Of course if Ted Cruz is your state A.G. he will dispute that claim in the state supreme court, even though the evidence of your innocence is absolutely incontrovertible, on the grounds that (according to the man who wants to be the next leader of the free world and claims to be a defender of freedom) once your appeals are used up you can't get a retrial no matter what new evidence is discovered. If this means you must serve the remaining 4 years or a 10 year sentence they unjustly gave you then according to Cruz this state of affairs is "justice".

      --
      Unicode killed the ASCII-art *
    4. Re:criminal cases have higher standards of proof by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

      What if they some how destroy your hardware then took but they still have the out side logs?

  7. Re:Gonna be on the side of Trump & Sanders on by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Virtually all "free trade" agreements have SCREWED the average American worker for the benefit of large companies. That's enough for me to hate the TPP.

    That is because free trade agreements are not meant to protect the average American worker. They are, however, meant to benefit the large corporations.

  8. Sense by QuietLagoon · · Score: 2

    ...What sense is there in sending someone to jail for an infringement that causes no harm to the copyright holder, whether they complain about it or not? And why should it matter that the copyright holder complains about something that didn't affect them anyway?...

    There is no sense to it.

    .
    But that doesn't matter because the TPP was written by industry interests and rubber-stamped by the governments involved.

  9. Who will buy my copyright? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I am hereby applying to copyright the brand name "Anonymous Coward".
    If anyone tries to infringe on my copyright, they will have hell to pay.
    Note: licensing may be negotiated.

            This post is copyright, Anonymous Coward.

    1. Re:Who will buy my copyright? by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      Sorry, prior art. Also, you should have applied for a trade mark, not copyright.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    2. Re:Who will buy my copyright? by mukinrestak · · Score: 1

      Your country's silly distinctions between various types of IP threaten my potential profits. Prepare for ISDS.

  10. Get less time for shopping lifting the movies from by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Get less time for shopping lifting the movies from Walmart.

  11. copyright cow by surd1618 · · Score: 5, Funny

    moo!
    Copyright Cow 2016
    No part of this may be reproduced, copied or distributed in any form or by any means, or stored in any database or retrieval system, without the express prior written permission of the owners. No part of this shall be reproduced, modified, transmitted, distributed, disseminated, sold, published, sub-licenced, or have derivative work created or based upon it, without the express prior written permission of the owners. If you wish to reproduce any part of this, please contact the owners, providing full details.

    1. Re:copyright cow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      moo!

      I live in the jungle go fucking sue me

    2. Re:copyright cow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      No part of this may be reproduced, copied or distributed in any form or by any means, or stored in any database or retrieval system, without the express prior written permission of the owners. No part of this shall be reproduced, modified, transmitted, distributed, disseminated, sold, published, sub-licenced, or have derivative work created or based upon it, without the express prior written permission of the owners. If you wish to reproduce any part of this, please contact the owners, providing full details.

      You'll be hearing from my lawyer over the appropriation of our copyright subtext.

  12. Welcome to San Sequestro. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Again.

  13. Re:Get less time for shopping lifting the movies f by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Get less time for shopping lifting the movies from Walmart.

     
    Get less time for killing Michael Jackson, than for copying his music.

  14. It Won't Make Any Difference by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The market for counterfeits is already well established outside of the United States and especially in Mexico where pirated movies and music are sold on physical media in outdoor markets for a dollar a pop. The entire business is also hooked into the corruption and lawlessness that plagues that country. The federal government in Mexico has much bigger fish to fry than worrying about counterfeit goods. They're fighting what amounts to a low intensity civil war against the drug cartels who also run the counterfeit markets in areas under their control as a profitable sidelines, taxing sales and providing protection from interference by local police. Unless Mexico can solve their drug cartel problem, which won't happen until drug prohibition ends in the United States, the counterfeit good markets will continue more or less as usual because with all of the corruption and violence down there, they're basically above these kind of laws and under the law of the gun instead.

    1. Re:It Won't Make Any Difference by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Mexico had cartels before the drug were illegal, and will continue to have cartels even if drugs are legalized.

      Canada is on the border, just like Mexico, and it doesn't have the problems of a low intensity civil war. The problem is Mexico's, drugs are just an excuse.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    2. Re:It Won't Make Any Difference by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I live in Bangkok, Thailand and counterfeit goods are 100 times more commonly available than the originals in this city. Occasionally the local police shut down a market her or there, and a dozen spring up to take their place. Usually the markets continue to operate unmolested because most of the police are paid off by the stall holders. Personally I prefer this low level of police corruption to the much more serious high level corruption of the wealthy, the corporations and their puppet politicians.

  15. Groublaiksmup by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I invented a new word, groublaiksmup, and hereby claim copyright of it. If you would like to use my new word, the fee is $1.00 USD per use or conctact me to negotiate a better deal for bulk quantities.

    Regards,
    Anonymous Coward

  16. Thank you Obama, by fredrated · · Score: 0

    corporate stooge to the big time.

  17. This has been going on for much too long by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Governments commit us into treaties, and if we complain, they tell us their hands are tied: treaty. While the USA have a history of ignoring and violating treaties whenever the stipulations would hurt them, they will treat it like a law of nature if it pleases them. Take back your democratic right: No government can sell you into servitude!

    1. Re: This has been going on for much too long by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You're quite wrong. The government can do as they damn please with you and there's nothing you can do about it. Come on, rebel. See how long you last.

    2. Re:This has been going on for much too long by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think the people of a few nations tried taking back their rights and the USA bombed them back into the stone age.

  18. The TPP has not been approved by mbone · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The terms of the TPA stipulate that when a deal is formally submitted to Congress, they must act within 90 legislative days. According to Politico, many expect Congress to vote on the bill either during the Summer of 2016 or in the lame-duck session after the 2016 elections.

    There is still time to stop this corrupt giveaway of power to corporate interests, and a political campaign season is an excellent time to do it.

    1. Re:The TPP has not been approved by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Still time for you to download I2P, Phantom, Tor, Onioncat, Transmission, Vuze, Ricochet, etc, etc...

      And then RIP and SHARE ALL your shit 24 hours a day 365 days a year nonstop with complete untouchable location anonymous encrypted hidden service glee and impunity and put these copyright motherfuckers in their grave.

      Been doing it since Piratebay went down the first time, you should too, for good.

    2. Re:The TPP has not been approved by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And then RIP and SHARE ALL your shit 24 hours a day 365 days a year nonstop with complete untouchable location anonymous encrypted hidden service glee and impunity and put these copyright motherfuckers in their grave.

      And all the people like you doing this aren't harming any of the copyright holders, are you?

    3. Re:The TPP has not been approved by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Anonymous doesn't care about copyright.
      And it doesn't care about harming corporate megalomaniacal entities.
      The true real artists in most all cases GAVE UP their rights to the current copyright HOLDER.
      So the artists aren't getting shit either.

      So FUCK IT, at least give the media you love fame and props by sharing it.
      DESTROY the system until the actual artists begin to retain their rights.
      Then you can have this bleeding heart talk about how to pay them with bitcoin if you like it, or go to their shows.

      Till then, yes, we're gonna keep on filesharing.

    4. Re:The TPP has not been approved by Maow · · Score: 1

      And then RIP and SHARE ALL your shit 24 hours a day 365 days a year nonstop with complete untouchable location anonymous encrypted hidden service glee and impunity and put these copyright motherfuckers in their grave.

      Nonsense.

      Kill them with boycotts: more effective, easier, less risky, creates lots of free time to actually do things.

      Unless you're really just concerned about getting stuff for free.

    5. Re:The TPP has not been approved by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Kill them with boycotts:"

      Boycotts don't work, just look at the videogame industry - the industry has gotten everything it wanted, DRM always online games via MMO/F2P. See: League of legends. The average person is too stupid.

      Markets don't work in practice because of 'the stupid calculation problem'. AKA people are too stupid with their money and hence won't punish bad companies.

    6. Re:The TPP has not been approved by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... a political campaign season is an excellent time ...

      US lobbyists have the money to bide their time and then, hide the legislation enforcing this treaty inside another bill.

    7. Re:The TPP has not been approved by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      That's not how political campaigns work. They are not there to listen to your concerns, they are there to direct your concern to the things they think make them look good. TPP is an existential, vague threat that seems remote and intangible compared to the imaginary illegal immigrant who took your job etc.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    8. Re:The TPP has not been approved by Cederic · · Score: 1

      I'm really not sure that League of Legends is a terribly good basis for an argument on consumers losing out.

      It's an online multiplayer game, so do please explain how this could be achieved without connecting to a network.
      It's a free to play game which doesn't try and impose continual microtransactions. I think that's a rather good deal for customers.

      Seems to me your description of the industry winning is quoting a fine example of the industry going out of its way to give customers a great experience. The success of the game backs this up.

      Disclosure: I'm not a fan of that genre so I don't even play League of Legends, I just recognise the good things its creators are doing. I'm sure they do shitty things too.

    9. Re:The TPP has not been approved by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Could calling for a boycott be regarded as harming the copyright holders?

    10. Re:The TPP has not been approved by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just what the fuck do you think filesharing is, mon?
      It IS a BOYCOTT, a refusal to buy en masse... not 1 copy per user, but 1 copy for all.
      It IS about free.
      But moreso, about eliminating useless old world thieving profiteering middlemen.
      Warner Records and Distribution does absolutely nothing for you in the digital connected age.
      Cut them out.

    11. Re:The TPP has not been approved by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm part of this torrent sharing cloud and am really pleased with its performance.
      The selection could definitely be bigger as not many people even know about it or its completely anonymous and worry free properties.
      But still, it's cool and I'm really happy I sat down and learned about it and how to connect my browser and torrent client to it :)
      I think all sorts of private and personal things and blogs and activities and friends to be found will migrate there since you can be you without fear.
      Filesharing is just one part of it all. Hope to see you there.

  19. Here come the appoligists. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Already, with only 14 comments to this summary, we have people supporting the idea that if no harm was done (the assumption being that all the investigation work is complete and no harm was found to have been committed), then you should be jailed because some copyright holder could have been harmed, despite evidence to the contrary.

    There is no sense to this. The very notion that you can be locked away in a cage without casing harm to anyone, goes against self-preservation. Nevertheless, we have people who will gladly uphold this new law simply because some politician signed it, and some vague self-serving crap about the rule of law. Which seems to becoming more and more like the rule of religion with each passing bill, and just as impossible to reason with it's supporters.

    Rule of law believer: "But, but it's THE LAW!"

    Me: Yeah, so because it's the law, a cop can kill an unarmed naked person without penalty, your ability to self govern can be revoked, and now individuals can be locked up simply because they could cause harm to a corporation. You don't see anything wrong with that?

    Rule of law believer: "Well, yes that's wrong. But we just have to change the law."

    Me: Change the law? How? You keep voting for the people who support this shit, they've used that fact to stack the deck against you, (Gerrymandering, fast track authority, unconstitutional spying, etc.), and now they are enshrining this into international agreements, which are even harder to change. So how, pray tell, do you intend to change this?

    Rule of law believer: "By voting as prescribed by the law."

    Me: So, why do you uphold these laws when they are designed to harm you?

    Rule of law believer: "Because it's the law."

    The US is truly full of idiots. Of course what else could be said about a nation that's openly a supporter of torture, ignores the needs of it's own people (like clean water....), betrays the trust given to it when it suits them ("Oh, we were just collecting metadata."), while at the same time pushing corporatism down the world's throat via international treaties? I guess it's just natural for them to punish anyone that threatens their idiocy, to the detriment of everyone. Oh well. It's not like the rest of world will do anything about it. So I guess I should stop complaining. It's falling on deaf ears. (And ears looking to silence dissent.)

    Disclaimer: Yes I'm a US citizen. So I'm also referring to myself in this statement. Also before anyone tries a "Well what have you done?" argument, I've tried to vote out my incumbents. The current senator for my state has been in office longer than I've been alive. (He supported SOPA and PIPA, and that's just one reason I dislike him.) Our current governor was elected by less than 36% of the total registered voters in my state. (Whom I did not vote for, as he was a pathological liar even during his campaign, and his real stance on any given issue was whatever got him the vote from the given audience. A.K.A A True Politician(TM).) I've also tried reasoning with people about the bad laws that are being passed when they say they support them, and all I manage to do is get a response of "agree to disagree". So I do try to work within the system, but I have no confidence in it.

    1. Re:Here come the appoligists. by jonwil · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I suspect part of the problem in the US is people who say "I dont particularly like these new laws but I dont consider them important enough to vote for the other guy when the other guy disagrees with my views on other issues I consider more important" or in many cases "I dont particularly like these new laws but everyone who actually stands a chance of winning supports these laws therefore it doesn't matter who I vote for therefore I will vote for the guy who supports my positions on other issues"

    2. Re:Here come the appoligists. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think people rarely have the choice to vote for someone against these trade deals. Both sides of the establishment want this.

    3. Re:Here come the appoligists. by SuricouRaven · · Score: 2

      What other guy? There are only two political parties worth mentioning, and they both support TPP.

    4. Re:Here come the appoligists. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >Already, with only 14 comments to this summary, we have people supporting the idea that if no harm was done (the assumption being that all the investigation work is complete and no harm was found to have been committed), then you should be jailed because some copyright holder could have been harmed, despite evidence to the contrary.

      Doing so does give you massive profits so there's obvious motivation - like with many other injustices, doing the wrong thing is profitable.

      Probably astroturfing.

      >There is no sense to this. The very notion that you can be locked away in a cage without casing harm to anyone, goes against self-preservation.

      They think in the frame of the embarassed-millionaire. They don't think the law applies to *them*.

      >Rule of law believer: "But, but it's THE LAW!"

      As someone from Germany, it's interesting to hear that there is so much trust in the law in the USA. It would be unthinkable here. We did it before (leading to several million dead), but we aren't that stupid anymore.

      >Rule of law believer: "Well, yes that's wrong. But we just have to change the law."

      Dear god I can only imagine. Good luck with that. Your first-past-the-post system doesn't really lead to a balanced governing body, does it?

      >I guess it's just natural for them to punish anyone that threatens their idiocy, to the detriment of everyone.

      >Oh well. It's not like the rest of world will do anything about it. So I guess I should stop complaining. It's falling on deaf ears. (And ears looking to silence dissent.)

      We are. EU governments already heavily favor European sites (because of data protection laws etc) in response to the USA's stupidity. If the USA doesn't stop it, they'll be completely isolated.

    5. Re:Here come the appoligists. by phishybongwaters · · Score: 3, Insightful

      See the thing you are probably missing is that these same people are the ones foaming at the mouth, fighting to ensure the rich get their tax cuts. Why? Why fight for a group of people that you are not a member of? Because this nonsense brainwashing you've come to call "the american dream". I CAN'T make the rich pay their fair share, because I might someday be rich, and I sure as hell don't want anyone taking MY money. Well we're now in the world of youtube celebrities making more money than brain surgeons. I certainly can't do anything to impact that copyright owners ability to sue people and possibly put them in jail because.... I might be famous someday and I want to get paid cash money son. Anyone else siding with the TPP is a shill, plain and simple, cold as ice. There's no justification to supporting this insanity unless you are a moron that stands to gain (in your head) from it's insane clauses. Maybe they think it's ok to live in a world where an internet pirate can do more jail time than a rapist. I do not.

    6. Re:Here come the appoligists. by currently_awake · · Score: 1

      The biggest lie: voting third party is throwing your vote away. In reality, if the two parties see lots of votes going third party they will change their platform to get those votes.

    7. Re:Here come the appoligists. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      now individuals can be locked up simply because they could cause harm to a corporation. You don't see anything wrong with that?

      Bears are killed just because they could harm cattle or a human being, not because they have already done so. People holding politically incorrect positions aboard are killed because they could contribute or support acts which might harm US interests, companies, agents, citizens, or innocent citizens or companies of another country. Precedent is already there.

  20. The death of free expression on the Internet by seoras · · Score: 1

    Fear. That great manipulator of the masses. Unless you are a faceless corporation, with deep pockets and legions of lawyers you run the risk of jail time for posting ANYTHING online under the terms of the TPP.
    Even if you aren't quoting a book, or a song verse, for all you know you could print, or repost, something that can be held up as in breach of copyright.
    It's no longer "copyright", it's a gagging order for the common man.
    It's a return to media being entirely in control of the few.

    1. Re:The death of free expression on the Internet by Mephistophocles · · Score: 1

      It's no longer "copyright", it's a gagging order for the common man.

      *This.* Call it paranoia if you want, but I think that's exactly where this is headed - the death of free speech/expression (and not just on the internet - anywhere; these rules don't just apply to the web). Of course not every case will (or can) be tried, but you don't want to be used as the deterrent example, and neither do I. So, shut up civilian, and let the government/mass media tell you what to think. Then don't you dare criticize it, or the penalties will be more than you care to deal with.

      --
      Deja Moo: The distinct feeling that you've heard this bull before.
    2. Re:The death of free expression on the Internet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm starting to wish I'd been alive earlier.

      Yeah, the cold war was no fun and at times pretty scary, but on average in the West we had a good thing going.
      The elites have been very busy tearing the good down the last two decades.

    3. Re:The death of free expression on the Internet by seoras · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I miss the cold war.
      Back in the good old days the "free west", would tout it's political and social freedom as why it was on the side of humanity.
      Something for the oppressed behind the iron curtain to dream of attaining and seeing their over lords for the tyrants they were.
      Then down came the Berlin Wall.
      Today you'd think the history books on the communist era in east Europe were the manuals/manifestos for state control in the West.
      The only thing our governments needs to be better than today is IS.

    4. Re:The death of free expression on the Internet by dougaderly · · Score: 1

      It's no longer "copyright", it's a gagging order for the common man.

      *This.* Call it paranoia if you want, but I think that's exactly where this is headed - the death of free speech/expression (and not just on the internet - anywhere; these rules don't just apply to the web). Of course not every case will (or can) be tried, but you don't want to be used as the deterrent example, and neither do I. So, shut up civilian, and let the government/mass media tell you what to think. Then don't you dare criticize it, or the penalties will be more than you care to deal with.

      This combined with the ridiculous copyright laws in the US bother me. It bothers me that Steamboat Willie is still copyrighted and not in the public domain for another two plus years, and I have few doubts congress will find a way to extend the copyright on this before the 2019 deadline. With the society we have now, where the expansion of information has been so great in the last few decades, let alone the last hundred years or so, it bothers me that so much of what is relevant to our society today would be subject to the TPP laws and bullying by large corporations. Combine ridiculous terms of protection with the ability to criminalize non-harmful activity and there's a problem. The most ridiculous piece for me, is being an attorney myself, it's not that hard to prove *some* harm from just about any activity. To be able to jail people for non-harmful activity? ridiculous. The bar was already too low, but to set it even further down is disturbing. Am I shocked? no. Surprised? no. But disturbed.

    5. Re:The death of free expression on the Internet by dougaderly · · Score: 1

      Sorry, Steamboat Willie is covered until 2024...

    6. Re:The death of free expression on the Internet by Mephistophocles · · Score: 1

      Right, and the result of this is repression of creativity. If you can't borrow on another's idea, expand on it, take it in a new direction (to use a common example, I'm thinking about Shakespeare set in different eras, highlighting themes more relevant to the current age than to the author's, etc) without being heavily penalized, then no one will try - at least not in the open.

      It's easy to immediately assign the worst possible motives to the perpetrators. Those motives may or may not exist - maybe we can't know the insides of their heads. But the effects of these kinds of laws are the same; regardless of whether those who write these laws actually intend to repress free speech/expression and destroy freedom, that will be the result.

      --
      Deja Moo: The distinct feeling that you've heard this bull before.
  21. Constitutions trump treaties by davidwr · · Score: 1

    Countries whose constitutions prohibit complying with these provisions will have no choice but to violate them or change their constitutions. In some countries, the latter is extremely difficult and not likely to happen.

    Anyone know if this treaty has a clause that addresses such conflicts? If not, those countries might find themselves subject to the treaty's sanctions for non-compliance, being kicked out of the treaty altogether, or (and I state this as a purely theoretical matter since it's not gonna happen), another country becoming so offended that they declare war on the non-complying country and bomb them off the map.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
  22. The US long game by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    The long game of the US is to make every other country pay for content, and the US holds a monopoly on content (much like a WalMart of the content world). And the US wants infinite copyright on the content, so that everyone else pays the US forever for content produced, and the US gets to prosecute people in other countries even if the laws in the other countries don't have penalties as harsh. The US has the most extreme lengths and extreme copyright violation penalties (and the most expensive copyright charges). The main reason the US wants full ratification of the TPP is that its like a tax on all the other countries of the world, and not just the countries, but on the people in those countries. At some point I can even see an American copyrighting "local news", and people in other countries can't even broadcast their local news without paying the American tax. Taxation without representation. The TPP is the worst thing to come along in the last 100 years. The stupid stupid stupid government in Canada could have scuttled it. They were warned, and yet ignored the warning. Hopefully a country in South America can scuttle this abomination.

    1. Re:The US long game by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The TPP is coming; no one can scuttle it. The only hope is that some countries will refuse to sign it, thus preserving some democratic enclaves where the rest of us miserable fools might someday choose to live.

    2. Re:The US long game by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The main reason the US wants full ratification of the TPP is that its like a tax on all the other countries of the world

      The US typically don't ratify treaties. They write a treaty with another country. The other country puts the treaty into law. The US delays their own ratification and eventually it is shut down.
      Being the big boy means that you can get one sided deals.

  23. The problem with the TPP by aNonnyMouseCowered · · Score: 1

    The problem with treaties like the TPP is that they cover so much ground that even if the intention *were* good some minor apparatchik could sneak in a malicious provision. Those opposed to the treaty, which I'm sure has some or a few good provisions, could then be accused of wanting to throw out the baby along with the bath water, when their intention all along was to toss out the baby (our civil liberties).

  24. TPP seems pretty duplicitous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why can't we just write a law saying all lower class individuals will give 8/10 of their wealth to the elite. In return the elite will protect the unwashed from terrorist, pedophiles, and Alex Jones. This is pretty much the jist of TPP, but my simple common sense law does not require 10000+ pages and is honest.

    Freedom is slavery, war is peace and ignorance is strength.

  25. McConnell wants to sneak it through, so I oppose. by readin · · Score: 1

    "Mitch McConnell has warned Obama not to send the trade deal to Capitol Hill for a vote before the presidential election." - http://www.startribune.com/sta... It looks like Democrat in Republican clothing is once again trying to get Obama's will carried out without being held responsible for it by having the vote during a lame duck session.

    That's pretty much all I need to know about the TPP to oppose it.

    If it were genuinely a good bill he could pass it before the election and take credit for it. Instead I bet he's telling the crony capitalists to be patient and they'll get what they want when the next election is two years away and the voters are likely to forget about once again being defrauded by the Republican leadership.

    Hey Trump primary supporters! McConnel hates Cruz more! Vote Cruz!

    --
    I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
  26. Re:Get less time for shopping lifting the movies f by rtb61 · · Score: 5, Informative

    You get what this is all really about. Totally shutting down the internet except for a very few publishers under the threat of criminal penalties for any copyright infringement be it a single photo, a paragraph of text, a site layout. Basically the intent is to shut down the internet under threat of criminal prosecution for copyright infringement, only the big players left standing and everyone else wiped out. Never forget copyright infringement counts for a single photo or a single page of text or a ring tone or etc. etc. etc. The intent is to hand the internet back to main stream media, a straight up act of blatant corruption.

    --
    Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
  27. to bad that the jury duty. pay is way to low by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    to bad that the jury duty. pay is way to low

  28. Re:to bad that the jury duty. pay is way to low by KGIII · · Score: 2

    That is true but I'd never do it for money. In fact, you are not obligated to collect or cash any payments made for your service. I have never accepted money for my jury duty service. I know it probably sounds silly but I take my job serious when I'm called to do it. In some States, you can voluntarily submit yourself to the jury pool. I have never done so. I do, however, get called on a semi-regular basis it seems. I've been selected more often than not. I believe in the concept of a "reasonable person" and I'm aware of the burden of proof (I've even sat on civil proceedings) and enjoy the opportunity to ensure that the State meets that burden and not finding guilty of they fail to meet that burden.

    Yeah, I know... It sounds odd but I really do enjoy it. No, not for the thrill or for the power. It's definitely not thrilling and it's not actually a lot of power in one person's hand ALL the time (it can be). I'm keen on being as unbiased as possible and dealing in accordance with the limits. I dress up for the occasion and everything. I'd rather avoid specifics but I have been what I felt was the voice of reason, more than once, and prevented a miscarriage of justice because of it. I'm not necessarily proud of having done so - but I am content in my decision.

    It is unfortunate that it can cause real financial discomfort (even harm) and I think it might be prudent to consider paying the jurors more. It would also help if people didn't view it as a hardship or a nuisance and saw it as a privilege and an obligation. There are definitely improvements to be considered.

    --
    "So long and thanks for all the fish."
  29. Re: Get less time for shopping lifting the movies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So what? The powerful always get what they want. Were you really so naive as to think things could go on forever like they did in 1992. It had to happen. We had about 25 years to play before they took the toy back. I didn't believe it would last that much.

  30. Works both ways... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So if a sentence from my website appears in a pop stars' song I can get them and the music company sent to jail? Awesome!

  31. But False Accusations by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Well, nothing there. The important thing is to screw over anyone you want by screaming pirate, not to ensure any sort of equity or justice anywhere. Punishing corporations for false-charges or pulling down stuff they don't own would go against the entire point of the TPP.

  32. Fascist trade laws and corruption by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Clearly these 'trade laws' that propose crazy extensions of scope to IP laws are not the result of a democratic process. The corrupt politicians who are pushing these laws need to be prosecuted now.

  33. Can't seem teh find the "Subparagraph" Smoking Gun by Tempest451 · · Score: 1

    So I went back and searched for the change to the verbiage to Intellectual-Property chapter in the Final TPP and I couldn't find the change. As of today it's still "paragraph" https://ustr.gov/trade-agreeme...

  34. Copyright is the new weed by skovnymfe · · Score: 2

    They can't justify sending people to jail for personal use of weed anymore, so copyright is the new "it". Jails gotta make money too, guys.

  35. Why the "quotes"? by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 1

    means much stiffer penalties for copyright "infringement:"

    I don't know why that's been put in quotes.

    --
    systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
    1. Re:Why the "quotes"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Probably because you don't need to actually infringe copyright. If you look at how DMCA is used record companies just hits all they can find with it. The result is that musicians that aren't associated with a major label gets their youtube channels taken down just because they aren't part of the ruling class.
      The major record companies doesn't compete with each other and doesn't really fight each other over copyright. It is only used to slam down on everyone else.

  36. Re:Gonna be on the side of Trump & Sanders on by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... SCREWED the average American worker ...

    The point of such agreements is encouraging corporations to manufacture whatever it can at a lower cost than other countries can. This means low-value goods become manufactured offshore instead of being manufactured in domestic sweatshops. The displaced workers must change to labour-intensive jobs (services) or learn to make high-value goods. Ignoring the cost of re-structuring the labour market, such agreements mean more goods are manufactured and the total wealth (of the member countries) increases.

    The problem is such agreements are used to enforce so-called protectionist policies that in reality, cause the opposite: They depress wages and limit high-value manufacturing on both sides of the agreement. The USA has more high-value manufacturing so the multitude of losses are offset by the few industries that profit from such agreements.

  37. "Available" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm not a TPP apologist and I think what is proposed is pretty silly, but note that countries can comply with the letter of this - making jail terms available as a punishment for such cases - but effectively all but ruling them out in sentencing guidelines.

    Lots of crimes have a fairly wide range of available sentences, from very harsh top-end punishments to deal with the most egregious corner cases, to much lower sentences. I'm not sure how it works in the US - maybe the judge has complete autonomy on what sentence they hand down - but in many countries each law has a set of sentencing guidelines that the judge is mandated to follow.

    So even if they sign up to this and implement a top-end sentence that includes jail time, by setting appropriate sentencing guidelines they can make sure that it almost never applies. e.g.:

    Baseline sentence - £50 fine
    Mitigating factor: no harm done to copyright holder - reduces punishment to stiff talking to
    Exacerbating factor: repeat offence, commercial scale infringement, use of proceeds to fund crime - increases punishment to jailtime.

  38. Re:to bad that the jury duty. pay is way to low by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 2

    Yep, I also did jury duty as a civic duty, although I've only been ever called up once - and was selected. The pay was rather laughable, but I still felt it was important to do. Honestly, I wish they'd pay better, as I think they'd get more and better qualified candidates who wouldn't try so hard to avoid it, but I suppose that can't be helped. When those government bureaucracies are being funded, do you really think that paying jurors more is at the top of their priority list?

    It was both a positive experience and an unpleasant experience all at the same time. It's good to see the system actually working as intended, even if only at a very small level. It was a minor case, but it's obviously hugely important to those involved, and everyone took their job very seriously. The unpleasantness comes from having to wallow in someone's alleged crimes for the length of the trial (mine was just a single day), after which you want to go home and take a shower. The case I was a juror for involved a young ex-couple, a baby, custody disputes, and allegations of physical abuse. Bleh.

    --
    Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
  39. TPB? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I read TFS, and I still read TPP as 'The Pirate Bay'.

  40. Re: Get less time for shopping lifting the movies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The powerful always get what they want.

    No, not always. Sometimes their heads come off.

  41. Re:Get less time for shopping lifting the movies f by AmiMoJo · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Totally shutting down the internet except for a very few publishers under the threat of criminal penalties for any copyright infringement be it a single photo, a paragraph of text, a site layout.

    The big guys infringe copyright all the time. What they want is not to stop people doing it, but to get their cut. They see things like fan videos on YouTube as free promotion, they just feel that as well as the extra buzz it generates they should be able to tax it too, and block anything negative.

    --
    const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
    SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
  42. TPP by easyTree · · Score: 2

    What are the penalties for crashing the global economy?

    Oh wait, I forgot, boat-loads of cash...

  43. Re:McConnell wants to sneak it through, so I oppos by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In this matter there is (as usual) no difference between Democrats and Republicans.
    If you want to stop TPP you will have to vote for a third alternative.

  44. Sense in Seizures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    or to the seizure and possible destruction of their server, on the grounds that by definition their infringement didn't cause any lost sales to the copyright owner.

    These clauses don't compute. Is a get-away car used in a bank robbery also destroyed just because it didn't cause any inconvenience to the impatient customers waiting to be serviced at the robbed bank?

  45. Re:Get less time for shopping lifting the movies f by phishybongwaters · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Close. It's about force feeding you internet 2.0 and freedom 2.0. It's about the 1990s cable TV style of tiered internet where only the 3 media companies can be considered players, and good luck even ACCESSING any of their lower level competition, because it will have been wiped off the net by then. Once you have a stranglehold through copyright law, on the competition (the competition being any site helping create or deliver content) you have won. THEN you charge them into oblivion. What? You don't want to follow their rules and pay their price? Enjoy your jail sentence. Note that none of this will stop organized copyright criminals, but it sure as hell will give enough room to start throwing even modest pirates into jail... or better yet, and falling in line with the true intent of these clauses, convince them to pay settlements to stay out of court.

  46. Re:McConnell wants to sneak it through, so I oppos by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm voting Cruz, with the rollover to Trump if he becomes the presidential nominee.

  47. Thank you Obama! by Lawrence_Bird · · Score: 3, Informative

    And you too Hillary! Your corporate overlords are quite pleased with your efforts.

  48. Lies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    And all the politicians were saying that it does not impact individual citizens. Clearly that was a lie.

    If any court or police attempt to enforce such things on individual, then they will be subject to measured legal response.

  49. Re:Get less time for shopping lifting the movies f by currently_awake · · Score: 1

    you will have difficulty finding any record company that has never knowingly committed copyright infringement. I wonder how they will feel about going to jail? Oh wait, this only covers people not corporations.

  50. How About ? by JimSadler · · Score: 1

    How about some effective laws that would allow us to capture and punish people in foreign nations for acts that are illegal in the US such as the telemarketers who hide in China or God knows where instead of just concentrating on copyright issues? We could also demand the ability to round up people outside the US who ship dangerous products into the US such as that awful Chinese drywall that destroyed so many homes.

  51. LAN party by tepples · · Score: 1

    It's an online multiplayer game, so do please explain how this could be achieved without connecting to a network.

    By connecting to a private computer network that is disconnected from the Internet. They used to call that a "LAN party".

    1. Re:LAN party by Cederic · · Score: 1

      While I'd love that to be an option for online multiplayer games, I'd also always put it secondary to Internet based matchmaking.

      It's not that I don't have any friends, it's just that we game in a couple of spare hours the occasional evening, and driving three hours for a 90 minute LAN gaming session feels a little excessive.

  52. Re:to bad that the jury duty. pay is way to low by KGIII · · Score: 1

    Two things, only one of which is salient...

    I've heard an argument... Let me backtrack...

    I've a fascination with law but am not a lawyer. It started in school. The legal folks had a whole mock courtroom and would pay students to play a variety of roles in that courtroom. They also wanted volunteers and I sometimes had time.

    So, that said, I've actually heard a reasoned argument for why the pay for jury duty is the rate that it is. They suggested it shouldn't be raised, at least not significantly, and had some good reasons why it is sound choice to not pay much to a jury member.

    Unfortunately, I have the memory of a gnat and that was a long time ago. ;-) So, no... I have no idea what the hell they were on about. I've long since forgotten! But, they *did* present a logical argument about why the rates should be low. I believe that a part of that reasoning was that a higher rate would actually (potentially) encourage more people to sit jury duty and that some of them would be doing it for the money - if it paid more than their job, for example, as they'd not have to work so they'd happily get paid for jury duty and they're not actually going to care about their duty as much as someone who does it for a stipend and because they see it as their social duty.

    I think that's how it went? I'm not completely sure but I think that's a good part of what they argued. I brought it up in a group of the students at the bar, as I recall. I really don't remember the varied reasons but I'm pretty sure that was a part of it - it was not the only reason. They had quotes and citations and had obviously discussed this in the past as they were well prepared with their opinions. I think there's some room for improvement but I'm inclined to agree with the premise that we might not want to pay too much for the service.

    I've given it only a little thought since then and when I mull it over now, I can see the logic in not wanting to pay too much. Ideally, yes ideally, we'd not have to pay at all and we'd not need the money at all. Employers would cover it, where applicable. That's what I did. If you got jury duty, you still got paid. You could bring in a receipt (I know what they pay) and get paid the remainder or you could just not bring in a receipt and we'd pay you everything! Err... It was probably not the most economic choice? It's a trivial amount when you're paying more for your copy/print room(s) than you are for some of the labor. (A subject for another day, or at least a different post.)

    And the second thing...

    I've got two M.95s and your name always reminds me of them. It's a Dutch firearm - used from 1895 until the end of WWII. They're very nice. My two are in excellent condition and are collector's items but not of great worth. Other than their condition, they're not unique. Condition-wise, there's no record of issue and they are in near-pristine condition. They were presentation models or parade models - unknown which. They're a bit darker than most and the wood was all well chosen with tight, matching, grain. They're quite lovely and are very well made.

    If you're unfamiliar with them (I have no idea, given your username) then I went and found you a link:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    They're just a bit darker than that - almost a walnut dark.

    --
    "So long and thanks for all the fish."
  53. Re:to bad that the jury duty. pay is way to low by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

    It was almost 10 years ago, but the base pay was $95 (tax free), parking (if you drove to the courthouse - and indoor packing during deliberations), Free breakfast (lots of pastries, etc), a decent free lunch (and once a week an outing to a really good restaurant with things like buffalo cuts and wine), and some more snacks for the afternoon.

    And if you were in a union that had a clause saying you were paid during jury duty, you could double dip, without having to show up at work.

    So when I hear of people not getting anything for the first 10 days, and something like $15 a day thereafter, it's no wonder people run away from jury duty.

    --
    "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
  54. Movies? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you have a phone you can make your own...

  55. So the TPP is invalid... by RecycledElectrons · · Score: 1

    "Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted."
    -- U.S. Constitution, Amendment 8

    As I read the rest of the US Constitution, the TPP is invalid, even if it passes.

    “The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.”
    — U.S. Constitution, Article VI, clause 3

    So any member of the U.S. Congress who votes for such an unconstitutional law will be guilty of violating their oath of office.

    Finally, if I may suggest music to accompany the removal of members of the U.S. Congress: https://www.facebook.com/sonso...

  56. Look at the Creaters by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The TPP was created by Hollywood.
    Do you really think that is was just put there?
    Why do you think that Hollywood likes that the government is taking over the Internet....

  57. 10-289 by wyHunter · · Score: 1

    It's directive 10-289, plain and simple.

  58. Re:to bad that the jury duty. pay is way to low by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 1

    I don't doubt there may be good reasons that juror pay is on the low side - I can certainly see the line of reasoning you're presenting. Honestly, it's not a topic I've given a lot of thought to, so I'm more than willing to consider reasonable arguments on both sides of the issue.

    Also, my handle reflects my ancestral heritage + my love of gaming. My grandparents were all from Holland. One fought in WWII (very briefly, obviously), while the other was sent to a German work camp, and subsequently escaped and fled back to Holland, where he remained in the Dutch underground for the remainder of the war - really an amazing story. I can also appreciate a quality firearm, as I have a few myself, but I wasn't actually familiar with that model, despite my name. My grandparents may have actually used a rifle like this, so thanks a lot for the link.

    --
    Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
  59. Re: Get less time for shopping lifting the movies by ultranova · · Score: 1

    The powerful always get what they want.

    King George didn't. Neither did Louis the XIV. Both Stalin and Hitler failed to build their respective thousand-year regimes. In fact, the very fact that we're having this discussion in a democratic republic rather than sitting in silence, too afraid of our feudal overlords who rule by divine right to speak, is a testament to the utter inability of power and the powerful to even keep their positions, much less advance.

    So how about you grow a pair, Anon, and stop repeating the malevolent lies of a dying concept?

    --

    Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

  60. Re:Get less time for shopping lifting the movies f by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Mainly because Michael Jackson probably did not own his music. The thieving media mafia owns most copyright works.

  61. Re:Gonna be on the side of Trump & Sanders on by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They are also screwing the citizens of EVERY country involved in these so-called "trade" agreements. They are just an excuse for the US corporations to take control of the world. Corporations will be able to sue foreign governments if they pass any laws that reduce profits, for example laws that help reduce smoking within a population. These agreements are total immoral and criminal.