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Former Disney IT Worker's Complaint To Congress: How Can You Allow This? (computerworld.com)

dcblogs writes: At a congressional hearing Thursday on the H-1B visa's impact on high-skilled workers, the first person to testify was Leo Perrero, a former Disney IT worker. He was overcome with emotion for parts of it, pausing to gather himself as he told the story of how he was replaced by a foreign visa holder. Perrero wondered how he would tell his family that "I would soon be living on unemployment." He paused. The hearing room was still as the audience waited for him to continue."Later that same day I remember very clearly going to the local church pumpkin sale and having to tell the kids that we could not buy any because my job was going over to a foreign worker," he said. But a person who made a case for access to foreign workers was Mark O'Neill, the CTO of Jackthreads, an online retailer. He argued that there is a need for more skilled workers. Competition is so fierce for developers "that my developers' starting salaries have risen by 50% in the last eight years," said O'Neill, and "senior positions command compensation that meets or exceeds even that of United States Senators."

36 of 605 comments (clear)

  1. Unbridled capitalism by vikingpower · · Score: 1, Insightful

    will bring you both President Trump and this kind of misery. As well as more guns. And more shootings. Home of the brave, land of the free. Amurrica, yeah !

    --
    Religous speak to God. Insane are spoken to by God. When all shut up, one can finally hear Shostakovich in peace
    1. Re:Unbridled capitalism by elrous0 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Oh, to be young and naive again. Do you think Hillary isn't owned by the corporations too?

      Did you believe Obama would really bring "hope and change" too?

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    2. Re:Unbridled capitalism by Nyder · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Oh, to be young and naive again. Do you think Hillary isn't owned by the corporations too?

      Did you believe Obama would really bring "hope and change" too?

      Since the majority of the Mills seems to support Bernie, it's looking like young and naive aren't the insult it was.

      --
      Be seeing you...
  2. Investment by Feyshtey · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If Mr O'Neill and the rest of these corporate leaders were actually so desperate for qualified tech people, perhaps they could consider starting extensive intern programs. If they failed to get adequate enrollment, they could work with high schools and/or community colleges, and even community outreach programs in economically suffering areas. Detroit comes to mind. Broad areas of the south do as well. They could provide valuable skills to people who wouldnt otherwise reach out to get them and reverse what these companies market as a shortage of talent and bloated wages.

    Invest in Americans and quit acting the victim.

    --
    "But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it,..." - Nancy Pelosi
    1. Re:Investment by fluffernutter · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Good comment. It makes me wonder why Bill Gates and the like have to fight for computer science in school curriculum at all. Their corporations should just be doing it on their own. Oh, wait, they want the government to pay for it, that's why. Even making life wonderful for the people working right now would go a long way, because parents would WANT their kids in technology and push them that way. Right now, as a tech worker my kids are going into anything but.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    2. Re:Investment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Spot on.

      The real problem besides simple corporate greed and sociopathic behavior is the whole outsourcing mentality and the culture of instant gratification. Most developers simply aren't great. That's perfectly normal and, for most things, perfectly fine. The problem is when most of these idiot executives and managers are trying to hire one, they've dug themselves so far in a hole that they need someone great to save whatever it is--and finding that person is difficult. Always has been, and always will be.

      Enter outsourcing, where I can hire someone that somebody else says is great, and if (more likely, when) it's proven that the greatness was, pardon the pun, greatly exaggerated, then I either live with it and blame the other company or I try to make a legal claim out of it. In either case what I've done is kick the failure down the road, hopefully for someone else to deal with.

      Enter India: a country full of people who are as good at and as bad at things as anybody else but which has come to symbolize the whole IT outsourcing movement because of some not so great traits: "helping" in school, cheating, and outright lying on resumes is absolutely rampant there. I don't know if it's a total culture thing, but from experience and with very few exceptions it seems to be an Indian IT culture thing to say one is awesome at anything and never admit you don't know something. American IT people who have talent see right through it, which is why all the anti-India remarks regarding programming, tech support, etc. American managers don't always see right through that because it's relatively easy to bullshit a bullshit artist for some reason . This kind of behavior will of course catch up with them and unfortunately probably hurt a lot of truly talented people. The notion, though, that somebody from halfway around the world is the only possible solution to a technical problem is in 9 out of 10 instances utter crap designed to deflate salaries, which is the fraud that is H1-B visas and everything like them.

  3. Something Doesn't Add Up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I don't disagree with the idea that there may be a requirement for H1B visas to fill positions where there are not enough skilled workers, but something doesn't add up when you bring in H1Bs to replace existing workers. You can't claim there aren't enough and displace the ones you have. That's like saying, "I only have 1 gallon of water, so I need to go get another gallon. But, I'm going to dump out my first gallon when I do." If there really is a shortage, the H1Bs should be added along side the existing employees. If there is a need to remove one of the two, there wasn't really the shortage that was claimed.

    If A and B are members of the workforce and A isn't enough, you need A+B not B instead of A. If you are bringing in the workforce of B because you can use the H1B process and the individual's resident only because of employment status to keep their salary lower, you are abusing the purpose of the H1B process and the requests should be denied for violating the reason. In fact, one would think such actions are really a case of filing false federal paperwork to get the H1B applicants.

  4. Supply and Demand by weave · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's the free market at work. If these jobs keep paying better and better, more and more people will get the training to go into the field and balance it out. But that's not happening because...

    I teach computer information science at a college. We have a hard time recruiting students into the program because they pretty much all say they don't want to spend years learning how to be a programmer when all of the jobs are being replaced by foreigners or outsourced overseas.

    1. Re:Supply and Demand by wisnoskij · · Score: 1, Insightful

      That is happening, it is just happening for Asians. The free market is providing jobs and training to the most needy. Indians need these jobs more so the free market is giving them to them. What you are looking for is some form of communism designed to protect a privileged class that gives jobs and resources not to the needy or skilled but to the upper classes.

      --
      Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
    2. Re:Supply and Demand by sociocapitalist · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "If you ask me, the problem is the entire H1-B Visa program."

      I suggest rather that the problem is the system which allows corporate interests to buy and control lawmakers who arrange things such as the H1-B program.

      --
      blindly antisocialist = antisocial
  5. So that's how market works? by Daemonik · · Score: 5, Insightful

    But a person who made a case for access to foreign workers was Mark O'Neill, the CTO of Jackthreads, an online retailer. He argued that there is a need for more skilled workers. Competition is so fierce for developers "that my developers' starting salaries have risen by 50% in the last eight years," said O'Neill, and "senior positions command compensation that meets or exceeds even that of United States Senators."

    So... scarcity equals higher price which is bad for business, except when it's business taking advantage of that scarcity. Would Mr. O'Neill complain to congress that we should allow foreign companies to build more Disney knockoffs, because Disney makes more money than some countries? I doubt it.

    1. Re:So that's how market works? by NormalVisual · · Score: 4, Insightful

      O'Neill didn't make a case for access to foreign workers. He merely whined that workers are more expensive than he'd prefer. So what if a senior dev makes more than a U.S. Senator? That, in fact, is the "free market" at work, but the free market debate has been framed solely in terms of corporate benefit, totally ignoring the fact that labor doesn't have the same options available.

      --
      Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
  6. That meets or exceeds United States Senators by Crashmarik · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Really ?, I have never been paid with a refrigerator full of money

    http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITI...

  7. math by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Competition is so fierce for developers "that my developers' starting salaries have risen by 50% in the last eight years," said O'Neill

    Sounds a lot less if you run the numbers! That is only a moderate increase of 5.2% annually, compared to 2.8%-2.9% you need to adjust the budget by on average (!) for all salary increases.

    1. Re:math by Crashmarik · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Competition is so fierce for developers "that my developers' starting salaries have risen by 50% in the last eight years," said O'Neill

      Sounds a lot less if you run the numbers! That is only a moderate increase of 5.2% annually, compared to 2.8%-2.9% you need to adjust the budget by on average (!) for all salary increases.

      Good point, If you factor in productivity gains I would bet that it was actually negative.

    2. Re:math by RabidReindeer · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And in at least some of those years, salaries for the folks at the top - like O'Neill - have risen more like 14%.

  8. Demand by DaMattster · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If there is a demand for more skilled workers, then why are companies replacing existing skilled labor with foreign workers on the H1-B visa program? The CTO of Jackthreads makes no sense whatsoever. The H1-B visa program is all about trying to save corporations money at the expense of domestic skilled workers. The argument about a lack of skilled programmers is baloney.

    1. Re:Demand by tlambert · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If there is a demand for more skilled workers, then why are companies replacing existing skilled labor with foreign workers on the H1-B visa program?

      There are three aspects tot he answer to this question:

      (1) Disney didn't actually replace the workers with H1-B workers; they replaced an internal department with an outsourced department consisting onf a third party company, which happens to have a lot of H1-B workers.

      (2) In many cases, the labor being replaced is not actually all that skilled. The U.S. education system isn't what it used to be, and the graduates aren't what they used to be, back when they were getting through their degree programs on academic scholarships, rather than student loans. A lot of this has to do with the U.S. workers having experience, but not degrees, since they were in many cases sniped out of degree programs by companies in the .bomb era who needed cubicle warmers to prove to their VCs that they were hitting their hiring targets. Now we have an non-degreed generation, which gets us to the third part.

      (3) A lot of these people are greying. That's a kind way of saying that they are expensive, compared to new graduates. Usually, that's couched as "culture fit", but what it really means is that CEOs tend to prefer people younger than themselves be working for them, because it's cheaper, and in many cases, you can hire better quality: they may have gone through a crappy degree program, but at least they didn't leave a crappy degree program after two years to become a cubicle warmer for some company that later tanked, going down with all hands.

      So in combo, that pretty much covers why they want H1-B's, and why the outsourcing companies are able to do for Disney what Disney wants done, cheaper than an in house IT department would be able to do it.

  9. Easy to fix by trout007 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If they don't want to follow the laws then just refuse to enforce the intellectual monopoly laws. Let's see how they like having all of their characters enter the public domain.

    --
    I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
  10. Re: President Trump isn't "owned" by corporations. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Trump is playing a simple role, just like you said, he's playing into what people said they wanted. But the people who want his ideology in power are driven by a crippling fear for the future. Rest assured, no good will come from a leader who plays on fear, rather than quells it.

  11. Replacing an existing worker? by firesyde424 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    How is this legal? It's my admittedly weak understanding of H1B law that it can only be used to fill a job position if there are no qualified domestic workers. It sounds very much like a case of Disney replacing a current employee with an H1B visa worker.

  12. "We need more skilled workers" by Chas · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I can't believe the bullshit logic.

    "We're firing US workers and hiring H1B workers because we need more skilled workers and competition is fierce."

    Uh. WHAT?

    If they need MORE skilled workers, and the pool of US workers is too small, HIRE FROM THE H1B POOL AND KEEP YOUR EXISTING WORKERS!

    But, again, we know this isn't truly about a dearth of talent in the worker pool.

    It's actually about a race to the bottom for salaries and the money saved by paying pennies on the dollar to the equivalent of an IT sweat shop. Economizing US workers out of their livelihoods.

    And it needs to stop...

    --


    Chas - The one, the only.
    THANK GOD!!!
  13. Does anyone believe him? by bradley13 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Mr. Jackthreads says that he pays senior developers $200k. Does anyone actually believe him? In Switzerland, where IT jobs are hard to fill, a good salary for a senior developer might reach at $150k. It's probably about the same in Silicon Valley - and in both cases, that's because the cost of living is pretty high. I want to see his accounts, because I don't believe he pays any of his developers that kind of salary. He's lying, and no one had the guts to call him on it.

    --
    Enjoy life! This is not a dress rehearsal.
    1. Re: Does anyone believe him? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Actually, he's not lying. Top developers do make over $200k in SV because they are worth it. There are lot's of professions that pay better and require far less talent, such as being a senator, a salesperson, a real estate agent, a recruiter, a lawyer, or a dentist.

      When do we start the H1-B program to replace our over-paid senators? It should be funny to see senator Weiner train his replacement.

  14. Re:President Trump isn't "owned" by corporations. by rmdingler · · Score: 5, Insightful
    I think the definition of a candidate's attributes can be accurately gleaned from his behavior and his followers. Trump is a bully who's core support comes from disenfranchised xenophobes.

    He says what he thinks.

    Trump says what an uneducated idiot would say to his buddy in private company. He attacks detractors like a schoolyard bully with a foul mouth, and he is of zero substance.

    --
    Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.

    Ernest Hemingway

  15. Re:President Trump isn't "owned" by corporations. by geoskd · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I think the definition of a candidate's attributes can be accurately gleaned from his behavior and his followers. Trump is a bully who's core support comes from disenfranchised xenophobes. He says what he thinks. Trump says what an uneducated idiot would say to his buddy in private company. He attacks detractors like a schoolyard bully with a foul mouth, and he is of zero substance.

    And yet, he's still better than Clinton, who will never stand up to an ideological fight because theres a chance she might not win. At least with trump, we know what his agenda is. With Clinton, we just don't know what shes been paid to do, and you can bet its not in our best interests.

    I'm particularly in favor of Sanders, as he not only understands the problems we are facing (as do most of the candidates), but is willing to stand up and fight for the right solutions even if it means loosing. Even a loosing fight is worth fighting sometimes. If Obama had had an ounce of real fight in him, we might not have a complete mess of a healthcare law, that failed to meet most of its objectives, and half the population hates.

    The only way this election gets close for me is if Its Trump Vs Sanders. I would likely vote for Sanders, but failing that, Trump it is.

    There are lots of people out there who think Trump and sanders are at the opposite ends of the spectrum, but they are the same in the truly important ways: Both are willing to take up the fights they believe in, consequences be damned. With Sanders, we know what his politics are about, and his ideas do not jibe with Wall-street, nor Washington, and hes the better man for it. With Trump, we don't know what many of his positions are because, like any real leader, he hasn't made up his mind about a great many issues because he hasn't had the time or the need to make a decision one way or the other.

    The single biggest failing of democracy, is that most voters are too stupid to understand that a candidate that has all the answers right now, is far more likely to be dead wrong about most of them. Voters should stop looking for candidates who already know where they stand on everything, and start looking for candidates with a track record of making good decisions. Voters also have to realize that they themselves are not good at making decisions, and that finding a candidate that matches their views, prejudices against candidates who can make good impartial decisions.

    --
    I wish I had a good sig, but all the good ones are copyrighted
  16. Inflation calculation by michaelmalak · · Score: 5, Insightful

    50% rise in eight years? That's only 1.5^0.125 = 5.2%/year. That's less than the rise in college tuition. For the extremes of the range, there is the ridiculously low CPI of 10% over eight years and the ridiculously high ShadowStats.com of 100% over eight years (view page source to see the hidden value). The geometric mean of those two extremes is sqrt(1.1*2.0)=48%.

    Maybe 50% over eight years (5.2%/year) is in fact overstating actual inflation, but it's far from self-evident. By just stating the number and expecting people to be shocked, Mark O'Neill is, intentionally or not, advancing the wage-suppression-through-inflation scam.

  17. Re: huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Funny how they aren't fighting to bring the cost down of C level execs in the same way

  18. Re: No new job? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    He shouldn't *have* to make sacrifices. What Disney did is illegal. Blatantly so. The H1B program is not meant to be a way to lower costs for companies. It's so that companies can import workers *when no local workers exist to do the job, regardless of the cost*. There were workers available. Disney hired a shady outsourcing company. Black and white, open and shut. If Disney is not reprimanded for this, then our entire legal system and government needs to be torn down and rebuilt because we're so corrupt it cannot be fixed without bloodshed. I'm not saying I condone it, but we're already seeing attacks on government from people who think we are already there.

  19. Re:President Trump isn't "owned" by corporations. by Mashiki · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Trump is a bully who's core support comes from disenfranchised xenophobes.

    The only thing you're missing there is the "and he's an evil far-right-extremist..." then you could turn around and be best buddies with the governments of Europe(Germany, Norway, England, etc), who also shout the same garbage at the opposition because they're not listening to the public. And successfully drive more people to the opposition with their insane rhetoric.

    Trump says what an uneducated idiot would say to his buddy in private company. He attacks detractors like a schoolyard bully with a foul mouth, and he is of zero substance.

    In other words, he's saying stuff that people outside the beltway, those outside of the ivory hall of academia say, and what Bob and Doug are saying around the watercooler. And that resonates with people who aren't you, people that you think are "xenophobes" because their values are different, and they have different viewpoints. And instead of wondering why they have different viewpoints, and why what he says is resonating you resort to just another form of bullying.

    --
    Om, nomnomnom...
  20. Re:President Trump isn't "owned" by corporations. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Since every Presidential Candidate has lied to them since time immemorial, they might as well pick the lies they like the best.

  21. Re:President Trump isn't "owned" by corporations. by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Trump is crazy, Putin is crazy, Clinton is ... who knows any more.

    Over the last couple of years Putin has demonstrated that he's the most powerful man in the world. Maybe he's on to something. Having a crazy-like-a-fox leader has its benefits. At the very least, it makes the leaders on the other side very nervous because they somply can't predict what you're going to do. Clinton is VERY predictable.

    If you can't have Sanders (and you can be sure the Dems won't allow that) then you're better off with Trump. Screw the H1Bs, don't ratify the TPP and TTIP free trade deals that are the perfect way for corporations to both avoid taxes and push a rush to the bottom wrt workers.

    --
    "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
  22. Re:President Trump isn't "owned" by corporations. by GammaKitsune · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The only thing you're missing there is the "and he's an evil far-right-extremist..."

    He just announced that he wants to sue journalists who criticize him. He despises freedom of the press and has no problem with using the law to silence critics, which is a defining hallmark of fascists like Trump.

    And that resonates with people who aren't you, people that you think are "xenophobes" because their values are different.

    I am proud to call myself intolerant of fascist values. Not all "values" are equally valid, and I'm nauseated to see people like you stepping up to defend American fascism as if it's just a "different set of values". Trump is toxic to the values my nation was founded upon, and his supporters are as bad or worse.

    --
    Gamertag: WyleType
  23. Re:President Trump isn't "owned" by corporations. by amiga3D · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Probably not. But they do know the other lying mother fuckers in the race aren't interested in helping them. The entire establishment that's been fucking them hates Trump so it's kind of an enemy of my enemy thing. If you've noticed, the more the elite in the Republican party band together against The Donald the more support he gathers. Yeah, Donald ain't all that but then they're pretty sure the other guys are going to keep on fucking them just like they have for the past few decades.

  24. Re: President Trump isn't "owned" by corporations. by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Trump is playing a simple role, just like you said, he's playing into what people said they wanted. But the people who want his ideology in power are driven by a crippling fear for the future. Rest assured, no good will come from a leader who plays on fear, rather than quells it.

    Not really. They are mostly driven by the experience of being shafted by the politicians who have lied to them for the most of their lives. It's pay-back for what the Republican party has done to their dwindling supporters. It's the hens of dishonest politics, the political consultant class, and the media pundits coming home to roost.

    --
    "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
    --- Jerry Garcia
  25. Most CEOs aren't worth even that... by PortHaven · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Today, most CEOs take actions to get immediate profits while hurting the company long term. They bail out of the plane after they alight it on fire, and enjoy their golden parachutes. They then move onto another firm and repeat the process.