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Aging Indian Point Reactor Shut Down By Bird Droppings (nypost.com)

Posted by BeauHD on from the reminiscing-about-the-Death-Star dept.

mdsolar writes: A gloop of bird poop was responsible for shutting down the Indian Point nuclear plant for a few hours last December, according to a state-commissioned report into the incident. The Westchester power plant automatically shut down on Dec. 14, 2015 when a string of dropping from a "large bird" fell into some of the plant's electrical equipment and caused the reactor's automatic shut down to trip, according to findings by Entergy, the company that runs the plant. "Damage was caused by a bird streamer. Streamers are long streams of excrement from large birds that are often expelled as a bird takes off from a perch," company officials said in the report, ordered by Gov. Cuomo. Last December's unplanned shut down was the 13th since June 2012.

58 of 90 comments (clear)

  1. Obligatory.. by headkase · · Score: 5, Funny

    That was some serious shit..

    --
    Shh.
    1. Re:Obligatory.. by PolygamousRanchKid+ · · Score: 2

      Forget the Hellfire missiles . . . arm your drones with bird poop. Imagine a drone pooping on Osama bin Laden . . . right in the face!

      Priceless!

      If the US military would adopt this strategy, our troubles in the Islamic State would soon be over!

      --
      Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
    2. Re:Obligatory.. by nojayuk · · Score: 1

      One of the weapon systems in the US military Bag of Holding drops strings of conductive carbon fibres over electrical switching stations and generating plants to blow them out. It was used during the initial attack on Iraq in 2003, deployed by cruise missiles IIRC. There may also be a precision free-fall bomb that can do the same thing.

    3. Re:Obligatory.. by networkBoy · · Score: 1

      /thread
      + multiple Internets

      --
      whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump
  2. So what? by msauve · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Seems like things worked as they should, if anything with an error on the side of safety. In a similar vein, power substations often shut down because squirrels short out the lines, tripping safety systems.

    Where's the news in things working as they should?

    --
    "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    1. Re:So what? by msauve · · Score: 5, Informative

      Oh, just to show how common these things are, look here. "...623 power disruptions caused by squirrels, 214 by birds, 53 by raccoons, one by a Hannah Montana balloon, and a handful of other incidents caused by everything from snakes to slugs."

      --
      "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    2. Re:So what? by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      Seems like things worked as they should

      That depends somewhat on what was shit upon, but bird shit from above should really not be able to affect any power generation infrastructure, and if it can, it's poorly designed. The infrastructure, that is. Clearly the shit is top-grade.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    3. Re:So what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Because it's "aging", and it's "nucular power", which means it's scary and bad to anybody who's not an evil Rethuglican plutocrat.

      Maybe you should learn to think right thoughts, friend - your bewilderment flirts along the border between lunacy and thoughtcrime.

      Now hush, and just sit back to watch all the brainiacs on Slashdot who can barely manage to keep a fucking Debian server online discuss the "proper" design of nuclear power plants in great detail, and how THEY would have prevented this problem from happening, if only their evil PHBs hadn't kept them working 80 hours of overtime every week for slave wages, which only they can do, because women are genetically incapable of sussing technology.

      Fucking Slashdot. Gotta love it.

    4. Re:So what? by Krishnoid · · Score: 5, Funny

      It was through either extremely poor luck or possibly supernatural intervention, that the streamer entered the plant through a small, unshielded thermal exhaust port which somehow led straight to the reactor core.

      It was definitely an architectural oversight; however, the automatic safeties caught the electrical overload and shut the plant down before catastrophic failure. *That* was a just matter of sound engineering practices.

    5. Re:So what? by msauve · · Score: 3, Interesting

      "it's poorly designed"

      Nope. It's designed to trip on when a sudden and significant overload is detected. Whether that's from a humorous bird dropping, or a more serious cause doesn't really matter - it detected a significant anomaly and took safe action. The system is reacting to measurements/inputs, not causes.

      And, it's not simply "bird shit from above" as you so blithely put it, it was a "streamer" from a large bird, as mentioned in the summary. That's a continuous stream, which to a high voltage circuit is little different than a wire shorting two conductors.

      --
      "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    6. Re:So what? by sjames · · Score: 5, Funny

      Use the force, Lark.

    7. Re: So what? by wasteoid · · Score: 4, Funny

      Red bird 5 must have used protein turdpedos.

    8. Re:So what? by 110010001000 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Because mdsolar REALLY doesn't like Indian River. He is against nuclear in general, but Indian River in particular. Probably lives in the area.

    9. Re:So what? by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      That was one rant that is 100% correct.

    10. Re:So what? by JBMcB · · Score: 3, Informative

      but bird shit from above should really not be able to affect any power generation infrastructure, and if it can, it's poorly designed.

      Problem is, with electrical equipment at least, that a lot of that gear gets really hot, so it's kept exposed to the air, as insulating it would mean lots of expensive and failure-prone cooling equipment. So it's exposed to the elements, which means other possible points of failure. The other benefit is, since it's all exposed, it's really easy to work on.

      --
      My Other Computer Is A Data General Nova III.
    11. Re:So what? by PopeRatzo · · Score: 4, Funny

      "it's poorly designed"

      Yep. They could have put a $2 shield on top of the thermal exhaust port that led directly to the reactor core.

      That's the definition of poor design. Failsafes for when something comes down the exhaust port are all well and good, but it's not good design if you plan for a solution after there's been a problem instead of simply preventing the problem in the first place with a much cheaper fix.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    12. Re:So what? by mdsolar · · Score: 1

      MD stands for Maryland. I do like the museums in NYC though and would hate to see the Price-Anderson Act used to cover the loss of the holdings.

    13. Re:So what? by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      How do you exhaust when there is a shield on top of the port? I am sure the Death Star contractors thought of that!

    14. Re:So what? by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      Oh let me guess: you don't like Calvert Cliffs either.

    15. Re:So what? by dissy · · Score: 1

      How do you exhaust when there is a shield on top of the port?

      A $10 sheet of metal bent into an upside down V shape usually.

      Or you can get all extra fancy: https://www.google.com/search?q=chimney+cap

    16. Re:So what? by msauve · · Score: 1

      "the thermal exhaust port that led directly to the reactor core."

      Are you trolling, or just stupid?

      --
      "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    17. Re:So what? by TheRealHocusLocus · · Score: 1

      Oh, just to show how common these things are, look here. "...623 power disruptions caused by squirrels, 214 by birds, 53 by raccoons, one by a Hannah Montana balloon, and a handful of other incidents caused by everything from snakes to slugs."

      (Improperly and irreverently cited from this story)
      AGING MIDDLE SCHOOL SHUT DOWN BY UNSAFE MILEY CYRUS BALLOON, NUCLEAR POWER TO BLAME

      MIAMI, Nov. 11 2008 (UPI) -- Authorities blamed a 'Hannah Montana' balloon and some birds for causing a power outage for hours around a Miami middle school. "That's just like them," an anti-nuclear demonstrator in front of the school quipped. "It's a whitewash fronted by corrupt corporate interests intended to convince the public that nuclear energy is safe, when we all know it isn't. No amount of balloons or birds will ever convince us."

      A helium balloon bearing the image of young "Montana" star Miley Cyrus collided with some power lines near Jose De Diego Middle School at about 7:30 a.m. Tuesday, scaring away a flock of birds, WFOR-TV Miami reported Tuesday. The sudden weight shift from the fleeing birds caused the electrical lines to dislodge and fall to the ground, electrifying a nearby fence. The school ran on a backup generator while officials shut down the power grid, but dozens of residents lost power for a period of hours. Nuclear skeptics hope this is the wake-up call they've been waiting for. "These things don't just happen. Where did the balloon come from? And it had to be a Miley Cyrus balloon too, didn't it? Do they think we're stupid? What were the birds really fleeing from? Never mind falling electrical lines hitting a fence next to a school, things like that happen all the time. What we need to realize, though, is that if it were not for people like us who speak their minds nuclear energy might some day power the whole world, and things like this will happen all the time."

      When asked how things like this happening all the time would be any different if they should happen all the time, he replied, "Are you trying to trick me? It won't work. We know what we stand for."

      The anti-nuclear demonstration had been organized because the school had been in the news several times recently due to plumbing problems, which also plague nuclear energy, which is a death sentence for the planet. None objected when the National Guard was mobilized last year when it was discovered that a small amount of urine had leaked into the surrounding environment. "It's just a precautionary measure," the Governor explained. "The amounts are measurable but hardly significant, actually less than the background urine we are exposed to all the time. If you wash your hands every day you have nothing to fear."

      --
      <blink>down the rabbit hole</blink>
    18. Re: So what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The headline, summary and article are all false. Everyone knows that wind and solar are the only power generation methods that suffer production outages. Not nuclear.

    19. Re:So what? by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 1

      "it's poorly designed"

      Nope. It's designed to trip on when a sudden and significant overload is detected. Whether that's from a humorous bird dropping, or a more serious cause doesn't really matter - it detected a significant anomaly and took safe action. The system is reacting to measurements/inputs, not causes.

      And, it's not simply "bird shit from above" as you so blithely put it, it was a "streamer" from a large bird, as mentioned in the summary. That's a continuous stream, which to a high voltage circuit is little different than a wire shorting two conductors.

      Many things I keep in my house are protected from this failure mode, by use of a roof. It catches the bird poo before it reaches any exposed high voltage lines I may have left laying around.

      --
      I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
    20. Re:So what? by meerling · · Score: 1

      Except for that whole thing about critical electronics being exposed to a location where a big bird can shit on it, and it wasn't Sesame Street.

    21. Re:So what? by sjames · · Score: 1

      It may well have been the substation that was pooped on. Most substations are not enclosed. The shutdown was precautionary.

    22. Re:So what? by thermidor · · Score: 1

      Shat upon. What was shat upon.

    23. Re:So what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Negative. It didn't go in. It just impacted on the surface. It didnt go in.

    24. Re:So what? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      And that's the point. The biggest weakness of nuclear, and some other technologies, is that a single failure can knock 1GW+ off the grid instantly. You need a lot of spinning backup ready to take over at a moment's notice to cover that eventuality.

      We need to develop more storage. Not just for renewables, but for nuclear and pretty much every form of production, so that we don't have to keep spare generating capacity online just in case. If storage can cover us long enough to spin up alternatives then we can save a great deal of energy. It's also useful for allowing the output of a hybrid nuclear/storage plant to load follow.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    25. Re:So what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Nuclear engineer here. The headline makes it sounds as if the reactor is so fragile that even bird poop could cause it to trip offline and is disingenuous. Which is to be expected from a submitter known for having such weak arguments that he has to resort to such shenanigans. This has nothing to do with Indian point being a nuclear power plant, let alone an "aging plant". The bird poop caused a transformer in the switchyard to trip, cutting off the connection to the grid. When this happens, the reactor trips offline automatically. The same thing could happen to any power plant.

    26. Re:So what? by Aaden42 · · Score: 2

      Indeed. I hate how science ignorant anti-nukes pile onto reactor SCRAMs as if they’re evidence of how dangerous a nuclear plant is. OH LOOK!!! IT SHUT DOWN!! OH KNOWS!!11! SO DANGEROUS!!!!11

      Yes, it shutdown. Like it was designed to do in the event that anything happened that its control systems didn’t know to be safe. That’s evidence for how safe & well designed the plant is, not how dangerous.

      If you want evidence of nuclear plants being un-safe, find reports where reactors didn’t SCRAM. I believe you’ll find a good example of one of those in Pripyat, Ukraine. (Which, BTW was a case where the reactor control system tried to do the right thing, but some highly evolved apes thought they knew better and overrode the safety systems, but anywho)

    27. Re:So what? by Socguy · · Score: 1

      Everything is magnified in a nuclear reactor since the cost of failure is so high.

    28. Re:So what? by Andy+Dodd · · Score: 1

      Yeah, that one (Pripyat) became for all purposes a case study in "Reactor operator HOWTO: Making your plant explode intentionally."...

      --
      retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
    29. Re: So what? by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      Please, tell us how you really feel.

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    30. Re:So what? by mdsolar · · Score: 1

      Solar can be affected by dropping until the next rain. Minor effect though.

    31. Re:So what? by tlhIngan · · Score: 2

      And that's the point. The biggest weakness of nuclear, and some other technologies, is that a single failure can knock 1GW+ off the grid instantly. You need a lot of spinning backup ready to take over at a moment's notice to cover that eventuality.

      We need to develop more storage. Not just for renewables, but for nuclear and pretty much every form of production, so that we don't have to keep spare generating capacity online just in case. If storage can cover us long enough to spin up alternatives then we can save a great deal of energy. It's also useful for allowing the output of a hybrid nuclear/storage plant to load follow.

      The challenge of the grid is that supply must equal demand - if people are consuming 100GW of power, you have to generate 100GW. If you generate 99GW, people notice as motors slow and lights dim, and if you do 101GW, people notice when their electrical devices burn out.

      It's why we have grids because the supply and demand gets averaged out as the number of generation and consumers increase so imbalances cause much smaller changes - 1GW on and off makes a lot less problems if you're dealing with 10,000GW demand than if you're dealing with 100GW.

      But then you get instability as currents start going where you don't quite expect and this can cause oscillations and ripples that cause safety systems to break links.

      Utility level storage systems are available - either flywheel or standard batteries. The purpose of which is to provide some robustness - smaller grids use it so sudden changes in load or generation can be tided over by the battery bank. The only problem is obviously the amount of storage is tiny and lifetimes are limited - they really are to help tide over until other generation can be brought online.

    32. Re:So what? by torkus · · Score: 2

      This is one of the better played trolls I've see as of late.

      --
      You can get rich if you own a politician, but you have to be rich to buy one in the first place.
  3. The bird scrammed by MrKaos · · Score: 1

    It left some heavy shit!

    --
    My ism, it's full of beliefs.
  4. For not so bright ones here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    This reactor is in New York which is part of murica.

    1. Re:For not so bright ones here by ChunderDownunder · · Score: 2

      Yeah thanks.

      India sounds half a world away, while Westchester sounds positively British.

  5. By "equipment" do they just mean cables? by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 1

    When they say "equipment" do they just mean overhead cables? I can't imagine any other kind of electrical equipment being left out in the open.

    --
    systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
    1. Re:By "equipment" do they just mean cables? by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 1

      Likely hit an insulator and caused sufficient leakage current to be detected and acted on.

      Nothing to see...

  6. Al Flyda by Tablizer · · Score: 1

    Sinister elements will read about this and breed giant birds, or feed beans to a thousand trained pidgins.

    --
    Table-ized A.I.
  7. When the shit damages the insulators by penguinoid · · Score: 1

    When the shit damages the outdoor transmission insulators, you don't know which way the bird is going to fry.

    --
    Don't waste your vote! Vote for whoever you want, unless you live in a swing state it won't matter anyways
  8. Alternate title by CMU_Ken · · Score: 2

    "Aging Indian Point Reactor Shit Down By Bird Droppings "

    1. Re:Alternate title by lucm · · Score: 1

      Aging Indian points at reactor: "Shit, down by bird droppings!"

      --
      lucm, indeed.
  9. streamer by mdsolar · · Score: 1

    This may be the phenomenon described: https://youtu.be/GjTxagEGmt8

    1. Re:streamer by Solandri · · Score: 1

      That's a bad angle to see the phenomenon. I had the (mis)fortune of getting a perfect side view of it while at a restaurant in Amsterdam. A heron took off and its motion caught my eye. My first thought when I looked at it was that it had about a 1 meter piece of yarn tied to its leg. Then the "yarn" started falling and lengthening, and I realized it was actually a bird dropping. I watched it go splat right on top of a bunch of parked bicycles.

      "Streamer" is a very apt term for what it looks like

    2. Re: streamer by lucm · · Score: 1

      What about a simple streamer cartoon then?

      http://www.plasticbrickautomat...

      (NSFW)

      --
      lucm, indeed.
    3. Re:streamer by RuffMasterD · · Score: 1

      its motion caught my eye

      Note to self: Do not look at heron with remaining good eye.

      --
      Human Rights, Article 12: Freedom from Interference with Privacy, Family, Home and Correspondence
  10. so ... by cascadingstylesheet · · Score: 1

    ... the fact that it has sensitive shutdown measures is a bad thing?

    1. Re:so ... by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      Since every power production plant has these issues, wouldn't that make nuclear more reliable than anything else?

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
  11. Fail safe safety systems. by thegarbz · · Score: 1

    Standard engineering practice when designing safety systems is to design them in a fail safe way. Degradation of safety systems can cause trips, diagnostic events can cause trips, and above all faults in the safety systems can cause trips. The only thing that can't cause a trip is the focus on the reliability calculations that go into these safety systems, dangerous-undetected events. These are engineered out as far as possible. This was not one of those events.

    Plant has a safe outage. Mdsolar posts anti-nuclear piece. News at 9.

  12. New meaning... by CODiNE · · Score: 1

    This brings new meaning to the term "mobile streaming platform".

    --
    Cwm, fjord-bank glyphs vext quiz
  13. Simple scenario by RubberDogBone · · Score: 1

    It might go something like this:

    Shit!
    SHIT! SHIT! SHIT!
    SHIT!
    Shit.
    Shit.

    --
    Sig for hire.
  14. No harm, no fowl by tomhath · · Score: 1

    Only one of the reactors shut down, not the entire plant (as mdsolar incorrectly states in the summary, but we are used to his fud). The grid handled it without disruption.

  15. Damn Nissan pigeons by dcavanaugh · · Score: 1

    In a world in which everything bad is suddenly super-sized, it seems the Nissan pigeons are moving up to nuclear reactors. They used to limit their attacks to cars. https://youtu.be/OnZhPtpibSk

  16. The bird problem is easy to solve... by morphotomy · · Score: 1

    They should just use lasers to keep birds away from things like this.