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Mass Surveillance Silences Minority Opinions: Study

Reader sittingnut writes: According to a study by Elizabeth Stoycheff from Wayne State University -- which was also referred to in the Washington Post, "knowing one is subject to surveillance and accepting such surveillance as necessary, act as moderating agents in the relationship between one's perceived climate of opinion and willingness to voice opinions online." In other words, knowledge of government surveillance causes people to self-censor their dissenting opinions online. This study adds to the well-researched phenomenon known as "spiral of silence", of people suppressing unpopular opinions to fit in by explicitly examining how government surveillance affects self-censorship. Participants who claimed they don't break any laws and don't have anything to hide and tended to support mass surveillance as necessary for national security, were the most likely to silence their minority opinions.

47 of 266 comments (clear)

  1. Not on Slashdot... by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 4, Funny

    So far mass surveillance had zero impact on silencing Anonymous Cowards.

    1. Re:Not on Slashdot... by msmash · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Should have seen this coming :-)

    2. Re:Not on Slashdot... by AmiMoJo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I doubt that. Even ACs are being logged, both by Slashdot (IP address) and by the NSA/GCHQ/Chinese etc. You can bet anything you post as AC ends up in your file at those agencies.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    3. Re:Not on Slashdot... by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Nevermind the NSA, I think slashdot's moderation system probably does a better job at suppressing minority opinions. Or at least, I've had a lot of posts of mine modded flamebait or trolling for i.e. being critical of Bernie Sanders, even though there was no trolling or flaming going on. Likewise I've avoided painting what is IMO a realistic picture of what a Sanders administration would look like (the Francois Hollande government in France) because I know it will just get buried.

    4. Re:Not on Slashdot... by NotInHere · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The ability for pseudonyms is something really important I think for freely expressing your opinion, without the fear that some of your future bosses won't like something you said in some forum five years ago.

    5. Re:Not on Slashdot... by tripleevenfall · · Score: 4, Interesting

      But the trends online are all moving in the opposite direction, to making people attach their real names to comments - the sole purpose for which is to make retribution possible.

    6. Re:Not on Slashdot... by tinkerton · · Score: 2

      That's one serious argument in favor of anonymous cowards. And even one for doubly anonymous cowards, that are hard to track for those with 'access'.

    7. Re:Not on Slashdot... by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 2

      Or at least, I've had a lot of posts of mine modded flamebait or trolling for i.e. being critical of Bernie Sanders, even though there was no trolling or flaming going on.

      Did you back up your opinions with evidence? Or did you just expect that the Slashdot mods would agree with you and mod you up?

      I've expressed many opinions here over the years that were against what was clearly the "Slashdot consensus." When I do so, I make a reasoned argument and back it up with facts and often links to reputable sources so those facts can be verified. That's the way you break into a discussion and overturn a flawed consensus.

      Yes, sometimes my posts have been modded up and down in what seems to be a moderation war, but if I've provided an actual insightful and informative post with evidence, it rarely ends up modded down permanently. Maybe I've been downmodded less than 5% of the time that I've posted unpopular opinions -- and I'm willing to accept that all moderation systems are imperfect enough to have some failure rate like that.

      There may be ways to improve Slashdot's moderation system, but it seems to work a LOT better than most places on the internet in supporting minority voices, as long as they back up their ideas with rational arguments and verifiable facts.

    8. Re:Not on Slashdot... by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 2

      [...] the sole purpose for which is to make retribution possible.

      Uh, no. The sole purpose is to make people think twice about their comments. Nothing stops you from posting, "The president is a [church bells]!" (to paraphrase Mel Brooks in Blazing Saddles). Do you really want the whole world to know that you — under your real name — are just another racist nut job? Probably not.

    9. Re:Not on Slashdot... by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 2

      But the trends online are all moving in the opposite direction, to making people attach their real names to comments - the sole purpose for which is to make retribution possible.

      No, that's not the sole purpose. It's true that one reason may be to have the ability to ban users who display aggressive or inappropriate behavior. From my perspective, that's an internet site's right -- just as I have the right to tell you to leave my home if you are a rude jerk to everyone else at a party.

      But another -- more nefarious -- reason is that attaching real names to you wherever you participate on the internet allows companies to profile you better. It's all about ads and selling your personal data, etc. Knowing what you comment on, the terms you use when commenting, where you hit a "like" button or whatever -- those are all "data points" that collectively say more and more about you.

      That's why Zuckerberg, for example, has claimed that having multiple online identities is fundamentally "dishonest." I sincerely doubt that it has anything to do with morality for him -- it's the fact that having multiple identities makes it harder for Facebook to track you. And every click or "like" or comment that can be attached with a real name is potentially more revenue.

    10. Re:Not on Slashdot... by tripleevenfall · · Score: 5, Insightful

      But what is implicit in your statement that it makes people "think twice" before having an opinion? It is that they should be compelled by the threat of retaliation in the real world for what their opinion is. There is no purpose to requiring someone share their real name except to hang the threat over them that if they post something another human finds distasteful, they might be found in the real world and made to pay for it. And as we all know, it doesn't take much for someone in the internet to become unhinged. Something more or less innocuous could cause some whackjob to show up at your house.

      It stifles the free exchange of ideas, and it's only intended to stifle the free exchange of ideas. There's no other purpose.

      This is why I will never post in the comment section of anything that requires your name. You don't even need to be doing anything wrong for someone to become unhinged and start doxxing you or something.

    11. Re:Not on Slashdot... by XxtraLarGe · · Score: 2

      Nevermind the NSA, I think slashdot's moderation system probably does a better job at suppressing minority opinions.

      Only if you care about /. karma. I don't. I get down-modded quite a bit because I don't beat the leftist drum either. Any time you say something criticizing any idea of a socialist or naturalist position, you'll get down-modded as a troll or flame bait. It's the nature of socialist "justice" whiners to try & suppress anything that challenges their worldview.

      --
      Taking guns away from the 99% gives the 1% 100% of the power.
    12. Re:Not on Slashdot... by cayenne8 · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Hell, it isn't just the TLA (Three Letter Agency) fears that squelch minority or even relatively NON-PC speech....you have it in many levels of society today, look at todays college campuses.

      You can't say anything there remotely non-PC, or have a dissenting voice on your beliefs if they go against the more politically correct liberal hive mind.

      I saw on the news the other day, that students were saying they had been traumatized by someone writing in chalk "Trump 2016". I mean, I'm no Trump supporter, but seriously, traumatized?

      If you aren't for the latest gay agenda, or if you raise the concern that a certain group does seem to have most of the terrorist problem coming from their ranks....well, you just cannot speak about that without repercussions. It isn't even just being shunned, but you are actively suppressed these days.

      Look at how many comedians these days, won't do shows on college campuses anymore....

      Theres major concern that any dissenting speech is being supressed, if it goes even remotely against the new social agenda.

      Even what used to be common sense has no place in the public square these days. Sure some things change, and some things need to change.....but ALL speech needs to be protected, especially the uncomfortable speech, the fringe element speech....the minority speech.

      But in addition to the privacy issues of the govt....other institutions are putting the clamp on speech that isn't pleasant.

      At the very least...Freedom of Speech, preempts freedom from being offended, and no one should be censored by any means....govt or societal.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    13. Re:Not on Slashdot... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Your mother never told you, "If you have something bad to say, don't say it!"

      No, because my mother wasn't deluded into believing that the world was all peachy.

      It's called free speech. Yes, you do have to pay the price for that freedom.

      If you have to pay a price, then it's not free. You really didn't think much before making that contradictory statement, did you?

    14. Re:Not on Slashdot... by Notorious+G · · Score: 4, Interesting

      In a recent job interview my employer conducted, the lack of online activity was considered a red flag for the interviewee. We did not hire him for a few reasons and that was, in fact, one of the reasons. Of course, we did not tell him that nor even imply it.

    15. Re:Not on Slashdot... by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 4, Informative

      That's why Zuckerberg, for example, has claimed that having multiple online identities is fundamentally "dishonest."

      Never mind that Zuckerberg uses Limited Liability Companies (LLC) to conceal his real estate purchases and keep his name off the public records.

      http://www.forbes.com/sites/morganbrennan/2013/10/11/facebook-billionaire-mark-zuckerbergs-quietly-expanding-real-estate-portfolio/

    16. Re:Not on Slashdot... by bkr1_2k · · Score: 2

      It's quite easy to recognize trends in people's behavior, especially if you have data over long periods of time. It's irrelevant if you or your opinions change on a particular topic over a period of time. What matters is that they can see that change, track it, and sell it.

      What I find more laughable is that the advertisers seem to send me ads based upon what my friends like. Things I've never once "liked" or anything similar. I guess the advertisers assume we're all just lemmings.

      --
      "Growing old is inevitable; growing up is optional."
    17. Re:Not on Slashdot... by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It is that they should be compelled by the threat of retaliation in the real world for what their opinion is. There is no purpose to requiring someone share their real name except to hang the threat over them that if they post something another human finds distasteful, they might be found in the real world and made to pay for it.

      Yes, it's simply impossible that any internet site might actually want to promote more civil behavior by causing people to tone down their comments. Instead, the ONLY reason must be that such sites would like people to go around attacking other people in real life for their views. [/sarcasm]

      It stifles the free exchange of ideas, and it's only intended to stifle the free exchange of ideas. There's no other purpose.

      Even if it were true that internet sites love encouraging people to go around attacking each other in real life, it's simply bizarre to assert that there could not possibly be another purpose.

      For example, as I've already noted in another post, tracking your real name and attaching it to your comments, likes, and other online behavior is essential for businesses to build up a profile of you, which they can then use to sell to other businesses (e.g., for advertising etc.). If you post under various names, it's harder for them to track your identity and accumulate data across multiple sites.

      This is why I will never post in the comment section of anything that requires your name. You don't even need to be doing anything wrong for someone to become unhinged and start doxxing you or something.

      This may be a legitimate fear. But it's really NOT the reason why internet sites might propose a policy against anonymous comments. There are all sorts of other reasons for it too, like, say, spam filtering. Even the best comment filters for spam will require a lot of intervention with anonymous comments -- requiring a login and a real name can help a lot.

      (By the way, I'm a strong proponent for allowing pseudonyms in most places online, and limited anonymous commenting where possible. But your repeated assertion that there's no other possible reason for requiring trackable names other than to encourage doxxing is utterly preposterous.)

    18. Re:Not on Slashdot... by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No, because my mother wasn't deluded into believing that the world was all peachy.

      My mother was the same way. But she taught me to be polite and respectful regardless of how bad life treats you. Politeness and respect are in short supply these days.

      If you have to pay a price, then it's not free.

      People are more likely respect something if they paid the price for it. Something given away for free can easily be toss away.

      You really didn't think much before making that contradictory statement, did you?

      You obviously haven't thought hard enough about yours.

      ,

    19. Re:Not on Slashdot... by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 2

      Because that logic amounts to not calling out evil person doing evil things.

      Only a stupid person would come to that logical conclusion. Many people did in World War II. Some still deny that Holocaust took place.

      So, you're okay if the government decides to execute you for your speech. Or a lynch mob. Nice to know.

      You must not have lived through the Civil Rights and/or Viet Nam War protests. Many people died. Some were killed by the government, others were killed by lynch mobs. Society eventually changed because of their sacrifices for freedom.

    20. Re:Not on Slashdot... by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 2

      Did you back up your opinions with evidence?

      Typically, yes. Again, going back to Bernie, I compare his views on taxation as being remarkably similar to Hollande's, which was a disaster (and yes, links provided in those cases, but not going to do so here because I don't want to debate that here.)

    21. Re:Not on Slashdot... by larryjoe · · Score: 3, Insightful

      But the trends online are all moving in the opposite direction, to making people attach their real names to comments - the sole purpose for which is to make retribution possible.

      Retribution, or at least the expectation of actual or potential retribution, is the important factor. I don't worry about government surveillance at all, not because the government isn't evil or capable of harm but because I have never (knock on wood!) personally experienced such retribution or personally known anyone who faced such retribution. And because of my past personal experience, I don't expect future retribution.

      In contrast, I expect potential retribution from friends and strangers on social media and from my employer for any non-conformist ideas. In those forums, I heavily censor what I say and write. But for government surveillance, I don't censor my expressions at all (at least not yet).

    22. Re:Not on Slashdot... by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 2

      I don't care about Karma. However if the comment is going to be quickly buried to the point that users with the default settings won't see it, then why bother?

    23. Re:Not on Slashdot... by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yes, it's simply impossible that any internet site might actually want to promote more civil behavior by causing people to tone down their comments. Instead, the ONLY reason must be that such sites would like people to go around attacking other people in real life for their views. [/sarcasm]

      Because censorship is civil behavior...

      Yes, it is. It's pretty much the definition of "civil" behavior. Look at any traditional rules of "etiquette." It's all about requirements to act in certain ways in certain circumstances. You don't show up to a typical wedding or a funeral dressed in ripped jeans and a tee-shirt with profanity on it. That's not explicit "censorship," but it is self-censorship. You have other times and places to express yourself as you'd like, but the social norms may limit your behavior in certain contexts.

      Now, you may choose to say, "I don't subscribe to that etiquette nonsense! I want to walk around swearing at everyone all the time!" That's your choice. In a public place, you can't really be censored for doing so. But that behavior most certainly would be considered "uncivil" by most. It's your choice to accept that judgment for your freedom to behave in such a way.

      But to get back to websites -- they also are generally hosted by private individuals or corporations. And just like a private individual can say "leave my house" if they don't like your behavior, and a private corporation can say "leave the building" to get you off of their private property, so a site owner has the right to "censor" comments on their own site.

      Now, you may object to such censorship -- in which case, you can choose to go to another site which has more lenient policies. That's your choice. Private people and companies censor stuff all the time when it comes to their private property: that's their choice.

      And yes, frequently the times they censor people is to maintain the traditional definition of "civil" behavior. If a guy walks in off the street and starts urinating on the reception desk at a company, I fully expect him to be asked to leave to promote "civil behavior." Regardless of how mad he might be at the company, his behavior is "uncivil" by definition and subject to censorship on private property.

    24. Re:Not on Slashdot... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Whenever someone screams the loudest about political correctness, it usually because they want to say inappropriate and not suffer the consequences.

      That's because the very concept of political correctness is about designating certain speech as correct or incorrect. Correct speech is protected from consequences, incorrect speech is not, with the implication that you could say/do horrible things to the speaker of incorrect speech without consequence.

      To paraphrase Bill Maher...

      "Women are smarter than men" *thunderous applause*
      "Men are smarter than women" *Sexist chauvinist pig!*

    25. Re:Not on Slashdot... by mrbester · · Score: 2

      This is something that meta-moderation was supposed to counteract, precisely because dumbasses suddenly granted power decide to treat things they don't agree with as a scourge that must be removed from existence.

      --
      "Wait. Something's happening. It's opening up! My God, it's full of apricots!"
    26. Re:Not on Slashdot... by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 2

      [...] the sole purpose for which is to make retribution possible.

      Uh, no. The sole purpose is to make people think twice about their comments. Nothing stops you from posting, "The president is a [church bells]!" (to paraphrase Mel Brooks in Blazing Saddles). Do you really want the whole world to know that you — under your real name — are just another racist nut job? Probably not.

      Hopefully such schemes will get tossed by the Supreme Court, as they have long ruled that anonymous speech is protected by the First Amendment precisely for the reason you list -- so people cannot track you down for retibution.

      It is similar to the right to a secret ballot.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    27. Re:Not on Slashdot... by AmiMoJo · · Score: 4, Informative

      That student thing has been debunked: http://www.snopes.com/emory-st...

      PROTIP: Most stories about over sensitive special snowflakes are lies.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    28. Re:Not on Slashdot... by Pfhorrest · · Score: 2

      Yes, it's simply impossible that any internet site might actually want to promote more civil behavior by causing people to tone down their comments. Instead, the ONLY reason must be that such sites would like people to go around attacking other people in real life for their views.

      You're missing the point.

      Why would requiring you attach your name to your comments motivate you to ensure your comments are civil?

      Conversely and equivalently, why does anonymity bring the asshole out in people?

      Let's answer the second question first. Anonymity brings out the asshole in people because nobody knows who it is that's being an asshole, so there's no possibility of consequences; which is to say, it doesn't matter if your asshole comments piss someone off, because that someone has no idea who you are and can't do jack shit to you in retaliation no matter how much you piss them off.

      Conversely and equivalently, the reason why having to attach your names to comments tends to motivate you to keep those comments civil is that when people know who you are, if you pissed them off enough they could do something in retaliation, so you'd better make sure not to piss people off, or else.

      The problem is that that "or else" can also be used by people who are unreasonably pissed off to motivate people not to say things they really should (or at least have every right to) say.

      And since actions are far more harmful than words, given the choice between the freedom of anonymity at the risk of incivility or the accountability of real names at the risk of real-world retaliation, I would choose freedom and incivility over accountability and retaliation.

      And I say this as someone who attaches his real name to everything, both because I'm not an asshole and because I'm not afraid of people who are.

      --
      -Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of all Trades
      "I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
    29. Re:Not on Slashdot... by kwbauer · · Score: 2

      Try the other definition of free. Maybe the definition that mentions restrictions instead of price.

    30. Re:Not on Slashdot... by shawn2772 · · Score: 4, Funny

      That's why Zuckerberg, for example, has claimed that having multiple online identities is fundamentally "dishonest."

      Never mind that Zuckerberg uses Limited Liability Companies (LLC) to conceal his real estate purchases and keep his name off the public records.

      Well, to be fair, he never said it was dishonest to have multiple real-world identities.

    31. Re:Not on Slashdot... by AHuxley · · Score: 2

      Re "You must not have lived through the Civil Rights and/or Viet Nam War protests."
      That was really a good public look via the Church report https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... at the US gov in action over the mass collection of data domestically and later direct domestic action to stop anti war protesters.
      The Mass surveillance in the United States page does have some of the methods used listed during that time for collection and later the results. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
      Later efforts would be MAIN CORE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... and then ICREACH https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
      Wide area collection via stingrays, dirtboxes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... just for been in a area of interest.
      With todays US/UK "collect it all" domestic access via help from telcos and computer brands, everyone has an East German style database entry to 'know everything about everyone" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
      Even just using this site and 5 eyes https://news.slashdot.org/stor... :)

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    32. Re:Not on Slashdot... by grcumb · · Score: 2

      I saw on the news the other day, that students were saying they had been traumatized by someone writing in chalk "Trump 2016". I mean, I'm no Trump supporter, but seriously, traumatized?

      Others have pointed out that the report was utterly false.

      Still, look at how well the lie plays among self-righteous bigots with a persecution complex. And yet we still allow Trump and his ilk to spew this shit, because free speech. Astonishing, isn't it, how people will allow people such as yourself to fill yourself with ill-informed tripe, and yet you're the ones who are persecuted?

      If you aren't for the latest gay agenda...

      Respectfully: What The Fuck is a 'gay agenda'? Equal rights? Enjoying the same rights as everyone else everywhere?

      or if you raise the concern that a certain group does seem to have most of the terrorist problem coming from their ranks....

      Just say it, for fuck sake: MUSLIMS. You mean those dirty, rag-headed, gutteral, snarly, infidels who chop people's heads off and want to impose Shariah law on you and your loved ones? That's who you mean, right, when you spew mealy-mouthed phrases like 'certain groups'? How fucking precious.

      And how fucking wrong. In the United States, Muslims terrorists are not more numerous than others. Historically, levels of terrorism in the US and Europe are down, not up.

      well, you just cannot speak about that without repercussions. It isn't even just being shunned, but you are actively suppressed these days.

      Goddamn right, you're being suppressed. If by 'suppressed' you mean 'told to shut your fucking yap until you derive at least the slightest clue about the subject you keep ranting about'.

      Look at how many comedians these days, won't do shows on college campuses anymore....

      Okay, that one is a fair cop. People on both sides of the political spectrum are way touchier than they've a right to be.

      That said, I would treat them to the same derision I'm showing you if they failed to adhere to the facts and basic logic.

      Theres major concern that any dissenting speech is being supressed, if it goes even remotely against the new social agenda.

      For as long as the 'new social agenda' constitutes actually caring about the truth, and upholding basic human rights and equality under the law... then Fucking A Right, nothing deserves—even remotely—to go against the new social agenda.

      ... and for as long as the 'new social agenda' is a bunch of gluten-free, artisanal hipster snowflakes busy enabling and affirming themselves while old Brooklyn cries in shame, then they can go get fucked too.

      Even what used to be common sense has no place in the public square these days.

      Bigotry used to be common sense for far too long and for far too many people. It deserves to die a death, and those people who perpetuate it deserve to be told to shut their cake-holes.

      Look, I get how you feel, but dude, seriously, your views are not just wrong, they're hurtful and harmful. Not to people's precious feelings—to their lives. When you oppose the 'latest gay agenda', you're sentencing some very good friends of mine to not being able to hold a loved one's hand in the hospital. You're saying that someone who devoted their life to caring and tending for a home shoul

      --
      Crumb's Corollary: Never bring a knife to a bun fight.
  2. The Smartest Book About Our Digital Age by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The mass crushes beneath it everything that is different, everything that is excellent, individual, qualified and select. Anybody who is not like everybody, who does not think like everybody, runs the risk of being eliminated...

    Published in 1929

  3. IF you have nothing to hide by backslashdot · · Score: 2

    then it's cool for someone to videotape you naked and having sex? If you have nothing to hide why any concern about that?

  4. Ironic... by Lendrick · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The people who claim that they have nothing to hide apparently have more to hide.

  5. Majority rules, minority rights must be protected by jfdavis668 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    "All, too, will bear in mind this sacred principle, that though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will to be rightful must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal law must protect, and to violate would be oppression." - Thomas Jefferson's first inaugural address.

  6. Re:Fear Mongering? by Frosty+Piss · · Score: 2

    "Squelching discussion" and surveillance are two different things. Surveillance is not always used for squelching discussion.

    --
    If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
  7. Chilling-effects are the intent of surveillance by gweihir · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Rather obviously, surveillance by the NSA, GCHQ and others does not serve to make anybody more secure, as it is now exceptionally obvious it does not help against terrorism or the other "Horsemen of the Infocalypse" at all. So why do it? Sure, one aspect will be the fundamental desire of any bureaucracy to increase its size and to absorb (i.e. waste) as many resources as possible. Look at the TSA for a text-book example of that happening. But that is not enough to explain what is going on.

    I have by now come to the conclusion that these people have either completely lost their minds (unlikely) or that they know exactly what they want (likely) and that is the chilling effects that general surveillance causes: They want "troublemakers" to keep silent and self-censor and to not rock the boat. They want to be sure they have some dirt on anybody that may ever come into political power so they can prevent that if they do not like the ideas of that person. Unlike the publicly stated motivations for universal surveillance, _these_ goals are rational (if utterly despicable and evil) and achievable.

    It used to be an all-seeing all knowing-god that served this function. People would "confess their sins" (i.e. do self-surveillance and report to their case-officer on themselves) and would be told what was acceptable to think and what was not. Now, even most religious people do not fall for that anymore and so a cabal of power-mongers has decided to implement a technical solution that replaces said god with technology. The mechanisms are a bit different, people now pay for being being spied and provide the hardware (e.g. cellphones) instead of doing it themselves manually. The direct feedback from the confessor has been replaced by general guidelines. The news are showing "bad people" being sent to prison and hint they are being tortured there, not so different from what the inquisition did, just adjusted to the information-age. And so on.

    Universal surveillance is a direct, targeted and determined attack on free society. There really is no different purpose it could serve. Sure, it is carried out and furthered by a lot of "useful idiots" that do not understand what the actual goals are and why it is being done (and I expect quite a few of those would still go along if they knew), but those in control will know. It will be how we, as a still mostly free society, deal with this challenge that will determine how history remembers us.

    --
    Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  8. A Perfect World by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 4, Insightful

    In a Perfect World, whenever anyone uttered the sickening phrase "If you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to hide", they would forcibly stripped of all their clothing and stuffed inside a glass cube on the public commons until they honestly realized the errors in their 'thinking'.

    A free society is impossible without true privacy.

    1. Re:A Perfect World by tekrat · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Bzzzzt! Nice try but wrong.
      Good, honest people have plenty to hide:
      Their social security number
      Their credit card numbers
      The PIN to their bank account

      Just because you're honest, doesn't mean you should be OPEN, because giving away your personal information that *should* be hidden is what gives nefarious people access to good people's money.

      --
      If telephones are outlawed, then only outlaws will have telephones.
  9. Surveillance is only part of the problem by Rosco+P.+Coltrane · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The other part is corporate data retention and data mining.

    Years ago, when young Google was still seen as a genuinely benevolent company and "social media" didn't exist, I was interviewed by a newspaper regarding a hot and highly publicized issue involving hacking and the newly-voted DMCA that I got involved in. I wasn't careful about what I said to that newspaper, and it got republished on the internet.

    Soon after, I realized Google never forgot anything: for the following 10 years, each time I'd go to a job interview, that episode of my life - and the unfortunate statements I gave to the newspaper - would come up in the conversation. For a good 10 years, I had to explain myself, and explain that no, I wasn't a dangerous hacker, what really happened, and that, yes, I can be trusted with company secrets.

    I quickly realized I had to shut my trap and hide my identity as much as I could online, if didn't want whatever I did or said to bite my ass in the future ever again.

    Now, years later, Google has finally forgotten about me. If you know my name and you look it up, you can still find references to what happened 16 years ago. But thankfully, with the advent of social media and people who bear the same name as mine, it's buried in pages after pages of mindless drivel. So you have to know what you look for to find out what I said back then.

    The lesson here is: Google turned me into a very paranoid person online, not government surveillance. In fact, I would go so far as to say that the government isn't the real threat here: it's rogue corporations who operate in the data mining sphere. At least the government is openly nefarious, and somewhat accountable. Google & Co aren't: they pose as friendly innovators, when in fact they're just out to make a buck on your back, regardless of how much they can ruin your life.

    --
    "A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
    1. Re:Surveillance is only part of the problem by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 2

      The other part is corporate data retention and data mining.

      Years ago, when young Google was still seen as a genuinely benevolent company and "social media" didn't exist, I was interviewed by a newspaper regarding a hot and highly publicized issue involving hacking and the newly-voted DMCA that I got involved in. I wasn't careful about what I said to that newspaper, and it got republished on the internet.

      Soon after, I realized Google never forgot anything: for the following 10 years, each time I'd go to a job interview, that episode of my life - and the unfortunate statements I gave to the newspaper - would come up in the conversation. For a good 10 years, I had to explain myself, and explain that no, I wasn't a dangerous hacker, what really happened, and that, yes, I can be trusted with company secrets.

      Umm, I do feel for you and your experience. But I'm not sure how any of this is Google's fault or really has much to do with "data mining." It's just basic search indexing.

      Instead, you gave information to a newspaper, who chose to publish it on a public website. Google's "intentions" here were neither benevolent nor malicious -- they were just indexing public information.

      As far as I can tell, if you want to blame anyone, I'd put the blame on the newspaper -- unless their general practice was to publish everyone online, which case it's really your own fault for not realizing the implications of that.

      I quickly realized I had to shut my trap and hide my identity as much as I could online, if didn't want whatever I did or said to bite my ass in the future ever again.

      I had a similar incident years before yours probably took place, where I had an email correspondence with someone who hosted a website, and I made some corrections about what he had said, though it was an "off-the-cuff" email which wasn't particularly well thought-out. He later posted that email on his website without asking permission -- his intent was clearly good, since he wanted to provide more detail and another perspective. But to me it was mildly embarrassing. And ever since I've been careful whenever I use my real name or email online.

      The fact that you can still find those emails from more than 20 years ago using Google (with enough work) doesn't make Google responsible for my embarrassment.

      Google & Co aren't: they pose as friendly innovators, when in fact they're just out to make a buck on your back, regardless of how much they can ruin your life.

      While I agree that Google is trying to make money (sometimes in questionable ways), and aggregating your data is useful toward that end, I don't follow how your particular anecdote demonstrates some nefarious purpose. You gave comments to a NEWSPAPER. Surely you realized that was already a public venue? And that newspaper decided to post that story on a public website.

      Without some sort of search, the internet would be impossible to navigate. I'm not sure I understand how Google's choice to simply index public pages demonstrates their intent to "ruin your life" just to make a buck.

  10. Re:It's sad by Sax+Russell+5449D29A · · Score: 2

    If I was paranoid I probably wouldn't let everyone know my email address, for starters. Being paranoid also implies that what I said would be speculation, which it is not if you check out the links. People who are truly paranoid post as AC.

    --
    -SR
  11. Re:Fear Mongering? by magarity · · Score: 2

    Just because the US government is really good at squelching discussion of how they have treated people with minority views doesn't mean it didn't happen. For example socialists, communists, homosexuals, native Americans, Japanese during WWII, Germans during WWI and WWII, and blacks during the civil rights movements.

    There are university courses devoted to bemoaning each of those categories in seperate classes. The exact opposite of "squelching".

  12. Founding Fathers Spinning In Their Graves by Jawnn · · Score: 3, Insightful

    What part of
    "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. "
    ...does our current group of "leaders" not get? Once upon a time, we the people considered that right to be so important that we made it a foundation of our system of law and government. That it has now been eroded that certain groups are silenced by fear is cause for deep, deep shame for us as a society.

  13. Mandatory real names. Extremely bad idea. by fyngyrz · · Score: 2

    The thing is, it doesn't really matter who they are unless some form of direct, personal retaliation is your goal. If they're being an anonymous asshole, they're still being an asshole, and internet-rhetoric-wise, you should treat them as one either way.

    The down side of "real names" is multifold: People who are stalked. People who are refugees. People who have been unfairly placed in some category by a malfunctioning justice system. People who wish to stay clear of former lovers, spouses, parents, etc.

    When you say "you must use your real name", these are people you are straight-up muzzling or placing in danger. And the benefit you get? At best, a toning down of rhetoric. Which does more good? Seeing to it that vulnerable people are less subject to actual threat, or our precious sensibilities being (slightly, sometimes) free of some level of assholery?

    I know where I stand; and it isn't with the "real name" authoritarians.

    --
    I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.