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Hearing Aid Business Under Pressure From Consumer Electronics

HughPickens.com writes: There's good news for aging Americans who may have damaged their hearing by attending one too many rock concerts when they were young. Andrew Pollack writes at the NYT that the consumer electronics industry is encroaching on the hearing aid business, offering products that are far less expensive and available without the involvement of audiologists or other professionals. The new devices are forcing a re-examination of the entire system for providing hearing aids, which critics say is too costly and cumbersome, hindering access to devices vital for the growing legions of older Americans. "The audiology profession is obviously scared, for good reason, right now," says Abram Bailey.

Hearing aids cost an average of nearly $2,400 each, or close to $5,000 a pair, according to a White House advisory group, and Medicare does not pay for them, nor do most insurers. By contrast, the consumer devices are not regulated and sell for a few hundred dollars apiece, at most. Hearing aid manufacturers say that diagnosing and treating hearing loss is too complex for consumers to do using consumer devices, without the aid of a professional. But sound amplifiers have been around for years and they are growing in sophistication, taking advantage of signal processing chips developed for phones, Bluetooth headsets and computers. The devices include the Smart Listening System from Soundhawk, which sells at $400 for a single ear; the Bean from Etymotic Research, at $300; the CS50+ from Sound World Solutions at $350; and the Crystal Ear from NeutronicEar, at $545. "To me it was a reasonable investment to experiment with," says Ira Dolich, 81, who bought the Soundhawk device, which he can adjust by himself using his smartphone. "I've been pretty pleased with it," he said.

209 comments

  1. Not To Worry by MightyMartian · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Congress will be banning cheap hearing devices. That's the American way.

    --
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    1. Re:Not To Worry by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      No doubt. The tracking industry in the USA is hit with this right now. Shaw (or Omnitracs) are basically taken as the de facto standard, all existing cheaper options may become illegal. I can't imagine that this was done in the USA without involvement of the biggest eLog system providers.

    2. Re:Not To Worry by Richard_at_work · · Score: 2

      If they are being sold as medical devices when they are not, then they should be banned - and it very much sounds like they are being sold as medical devices...

    3. Re:Not To Worry by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're ridiculous.

      If these devices are working and allowing people to hear, who can't otherwise, and are cheaper than another device that does the same thing, then they are a good thing. Taking hearing away from people because someone didn't file the correct 27b-6 form is utterly ridiculous.

      You sound like a communist. Unfortunately the exact problem in this country is that it has been taken over by communists and their lackeys.

    4. Re:Not To Worry by The-Ixian · · Score: 4, Funny

      So you just don't call it a medical device... done deal.

      Just like "herbs" are not "medicine" or "fees" are not "taxes"

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    5. Re:Not To Worry by fropenn · · Score: 1

      There's really not much threat to the industry here. People have been able to buy non-prescription "reading" glasses for decades for a few bucks at the pharmacy, but most people who want to be able to see clearly both long distances and up close visit a professional optometrist. It will be the same thing for hearing. Sure, you can use some electronic device to crank up the volume, which might work in some situations and settings, but if you have real hearing problems and want to be able to hear you go visit a professional.

    6. Re:Not To Worry by fropenn · · Score: 1

      There's really no threat to the industry here. People have been able to buy cheap non-prescription glasses at the pharmacy for years. But for people who want to see clearly both at long distances and close-up, they go to a professional who gives them just what they need. So having some consumer electronics that can crank up the volume might help a few people, but if you want to hear clearly and effectively people will still make use of a professional.

    7. Re:Not To Worry by greenfruitsalad · · Score: 2

      i often wonder; what is the actual point of american health insurance companies? as far as i can tell, their only job is to insert loopholes into their contracts to enable them to weasel out of payments or just say "preexisting condition". where i live, i have to pay for medical insurance by law (govt pays for the unemployed), but that same law dictates the insurance company has to accept any and all responsibility for my medical expenses. the result is that insurance companies run many incentives to keep people healthy. the only reason an insurance company can dump me for is if i refuse to go to yearly checkups (both general and dental).

    8. Re:Not To Worry by nycsubway · · Score: 1

      The FDA exists for a reason. In the past, you could create anything and market it to sick people and offer a cure or treatment. The FDA approves drugs and devices that are proven through clinical trials to a) work as advertised b) have limited or documented side-effects.

      If these consumer electronics companies are creating devices to treat hearing loss, or as an aide to treat hearing loss, then they need to be sure a) they actually work b) they don't do any harm (cranking up the volume too much to cause further hearing loss)

      It's great if these companies can reduce the cost of the devices significantly. But part of the cost of many of the FDA approved devices is the FDA approval process.

      In the case of hearing, the patients should seek medical advice... there could be any number of things wrong that would cause hearing loss. Using an amplifier might mask a serious problem such an acoustic neuroma.

    9. Re:Not To Worry by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You'll note that those cheap non-prescription glasses only serve farsighted people. Those with nearsightedness are stuck with the expensive prescription model. My diagnosis hasn't changed in a decade, but I still have to pay for an optometrist examination before I can purchase lenses. Yep, you need a prescription to buy small pieces of glass. What a racket.

      On that line of thinking, I fully support these companies bypassing the prescription model in the hearing-aid market. I hope they get into glasses next.

    10. Re:Not To Worry by beastofburdon · · Score: 1

      That's rich, you actually think that the FDA approves devices and medicines based on clinical trials instead of who gives them the most money.

    11. Re:Not To Worry by david_thornley · · Score: 3, Informative

      Hearing aids are external devices, no more intrusive than earbuds. They aren't going to have any worse effects than earbuds, and can be programmed to not get too loud. I've been told that going without hearing aids for too long can cause permanent nervous system effects, and if that's true we really want people to be able to get aids of acceptable quality easily, as it causes more harm to be without them than to get substandard ones.

      I have a friend who was desperate to get hearing aids, but couldn't afford a few thousand dollars. (He eventually got them used, much later than is medically desirable.) I've got absolutely wonderful insurance. I don't pay for prescriptions or office visits. I had a heart attack, including ambulance ride and rehab, and was about $60 out of pocket. I paid 70% of the price of my hearing aids (fortunately, I can afford it), which amounted to over $3K. Most people aren't that fortunate.

      It's always a good idea to get medical advice when something is not working, but by far the most likely cause of hearing problems is deterioration caused by exposure to loud noises, and the treatment for that is hearing aids.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    12. Re: Not To Worry by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're confusing the word 'communist' with 'capitalist'. Capitalists don't welcome competition, they try to destroy it or buy it out. They use bribes (campaign contributions) to help with the former.

      You really ought to learn how your economic religion really works.

    13. Re:Not To Worry by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Insurance company basic business model
      1-take in premiums
      2-don't pay claims
      3- profit and build large corporate headquarters and pay dividends to stockholders.

      Now there's lots of details in each of those, but that's the basic plan.

    14. Re:Not To Worry by anegg · · Score: 2

      Slightly off-topic, but a big problem with the cost of prescription eyewear appears to a complete lockup of the market by one vendor, Luxotica. This vendor apparently controls the production, sales, and even the insurance for prescription eyewear. That makes it easy for them to provide the appearance of competition, without any actual competition. And if they control the insurance vendors, then they can reimburse you more for picking one of their brands than a competitive brand. See http://www.dailymail.co.uk/fem... or search for "Luxotica scam" or similar terms to see other articles.

    15. Re:Not To Worry by Areyoukiddingme · · Score: 1

      i often wonder; what is the actual point of american health insurance companies?

      1. Profit
      2. Profit
      3. ????
      4. Profit

      They're gambling with people's health for money, and just like a casino, the house always wins.

    16. Re: Not To Worry by LinuxLuver · · Score: 1

      Not quite the same. The hours of service rules are there for safety. Some people cheat. The imposition of a standard in this case is to make cheating harder. Not quite the same as a cheaper hearing aid.

      --
      Only boring people are ever bored.
    17. Re: Not To Worry by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not communists, capitalists. Capitalism and free markets have destroyed our economy. It's all about profit and screw the people.

  2. Medical Devices?!? by _Sharp'r_ · · Score: 1, Insightful

    But wait... these are being used as medical devices! You can't make them better and cheaper over time, the government regulators say so!!!

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    1. Re:Medical Devices?!? by 50000BTU_barbecue · · Score: 3

      You mean the government that protects you from snakeoil salesmen, or the government that's bought off by crony capitalists?

      --
      Mostly random stuff.
    2. Re:Medical Devices?!? by westlake · · Score: 4, Informative

      But wait... these are being used as medical devices! You can't make them better and cheaper over time, the government regulators say so!!!

      I do hope this was intended as a joke, because I have grown rather tired of hearing the geek talk like a quack when the subject turns to medicine.

      Top 10 Supply Items by Total Spend - January 2015 Tracks 10 supply items, often known as ''physician preference items,'' based on total amount spent on those items during the month by hospitals and other provider organizations.

    3. Re:Medical Devices?!? by butzwonker · · Score: 2

      The annoying thing about the medical hearing aids is that you can even get in-ear monitors for audiophiles for less money.

    4. Re:Medical Devices?!? by mwvdlee · · Score: 2

      Odd; medication for mental patients is usually more expensive.

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    5. Re:Medical Devices?!? by Alioth · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What makes a hearing aid (especially one that works by simple air conduction of the amplified sound, no different to headphones) a medical device, but a pair of spectacles not a medical device?

    6. Re:Medical Devices?!? by vtcodger · · Score: 4, Informative

      Aging ears tend to lose response to different frequencies at different rates. (presbycusis) The expensive earphones try to tailor the audio response to match an individual's specific hearing loss pattern. Some folks may actually need that. It's far from clear to me that a simple tone and volume control pair of controls wouldn't be more than adequate for a lot of us elderly.folks.

      --
      You can't see ANYTHING from a car, You've got to get out of the goddamned contraption and walk...Edward Abbey
    7. Re:Medical Devices?!? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What makes a hearing aid (especially one that works by simple air conduction of the amplified sound, no different to headphones) a medical device, but a pair of spectacles not a medical device?

      Money in a congressmen's pocket.

    8. Re:Medical Devices?!? by GrumpySteen · · Score: 1

      Eyeglasses are considered to be medical devices, although they are exempted from certain regulations.

    9. Re:Medical Devices?!? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It could go feedback and deafen you
      The battery might explode
      it might electrocute you
      Someone might sell you something completely unsuitable at a huge markup

      Now bluetooth and earphones have all the same issues. You have to say it is crap. In some places the display cases are still said to be the 'killing area' where closing the sale is 300% markup - and sell enough and a free overseas holiday, dinners etc.

    10. Re:Medical Devices?!? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except there is nothing complicated about amplifying sound. Its a very well known concept that has been around for a very very long time and has no sterilization requirements for it to function. This isn't a chemical of unknown provenance that someone is ingesting.

      Hearing aids' prices up until recently has been 95% predicated on miniaturization. As miniaturization has become progressively cheaper to achieve the pricing SHOULD go down and not be artificially inflated by people who are essentially profiteering off of someone's diminished capability.

      This situation is more akin to someone going to the drug store and picking up a pair of reading glasses off the rack because they are older and having problems reading things.

      And for the record, my oldest sister was born with deafness in both ears caused by my mother being ill with some form of measles when she was pregnant.

    11. Re:Medical Devices?!? by Megol · · Score: 1

      No it isn't complicated about amplifying sound. But if you think the industry have designed special ultra-low power DSP processors for hearing aids just for fun you are wrong. There are versions that are multi-core too, think that is required for mere amplification?!?

    12. Re:Medical Devices?!? by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      So, you hook up an equalizer circuit to a smart phone app and poof! Customization. You could even use the app to play tones at certain volumes to help train the device.

      Just like the audiologist does.

      These days this is easier than writing a malware app for IE 6,

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    13. Re:Medical Devices?!? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      why not both?

    14. Re:Medical Devices?!? by Salgak1 · · Score: 1

      Let me fix that for you:

      You mean the government that claims to protect you from snake-oil salesmen, but is actually the government that's bought off by crony capitalists.

      Thank you for your attention. . .

    15. Re:Medical Devices?!? by ultranova · · Score: 2

      But if you think the industry have designed special ultra-low power DSP processors for hearing aids just for fun you are wrong.

      Do you actually need those? Use a dumb bluetooth earpiece and do the processing on your phone.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    16. Re:Medical Devices?!? by beastofburdon · · Score: 1

      Only the second one exists.

    17. Re:Medical Devices?!? by NetNed · · Score: 1

      WHAT???????? SPEAK UP SON!!!

    18. Re:Medical Devices?!? by yodleboy · · Score: 1

      "But wait... these are being used as medical devices"

      I think hearing aids are going to fall into a gray area. It's a little hard to fool someone as to whether they are providing a benefit. Can't hear well, turn on cheap consumer hearing aid. Can you hear now? Then it's working. A little different from devices that can be dangerous or rely on a placebo effect. Hearing devices for hunters/shooters have been on the market for a long time. Those manufactures are very aware of potential liability, and the devices are probably as safe as any medically approved device.

      Now, the benefit of the medically approved version is that an audiologist can map the specific frequencies where you have hearing loss, and the hearing aid can be optimized for that. How much better that is than an across the board amplification I have no idea.

    19. Re:Medical Devices?!? by infinite9 · · Score: 1

      My wife's voice falls within the frequency range that I'm losing. I'd prefer not to lose this feature.

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    20. Re:Medical Devices?!? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Probably that a badly designed hearing aid can damage your ears while a pair of spectacles would be hard pressed to damage your eyes.

      As such proving the safety of your hearing aid is something you probably should have to do before you're allowed to sell it to people.

    21. Re:Medical Devices?!? by JazzLad · · Score: 1

      Do you actually need those?

      Yes

      Use a dumb bluetooth earpiece and do the processing on your phone.

      Disorienting lag is a problem. One of my children lost quite a bit of hearing when she was very young (illness) - there is no way I would use a bluetooth option you describe for her* (not judging other people, just speaking for myself), I would sooner get a second job to repay the loan I took to buy her 'aids.

      Now that said, if these can perform well enough (or cause other outfits to enter the arena that eventually do), heck yeah, that would be a huge blessing as those things aren't cheap & they don't last forever (she got 8 years out of her first pair, is on her second pair now).

      *I may consider that for myself when I need it, but not for a developing child.

      --
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    22. Re:Medical Devices?!? by phoenix_rizzen · · Score: 2

      Most 2016 flagship smartphones include this feature: Personalised Audio. The Galaxy S7 and HTC 10 both include it; not sure about the LG G5.

      I've used it on my Galaxy S7, and it actually makes a pretty big difference to how the audio sounds to me.

      Plug in headphones, go into a quiet room, run the Adapt Sound feature, and it plays beeps in alternating ears at different frequencies and loudness. You press the button to show you can hear (or not) the beeps, and it creates a per-ear eq setting to normalise the audio.

      Works for corded and Bluetooth headphones.

    23. Re:Medical Devices?!? by AchilleTalon · · Score: 1

      Not a very practical solution to rely on a iPhone to capture sound an process it. Ears are working in a sterephonic way to identify where a sound is coming from, you will lost that with an iPhone. You also have to consider the battery being drained by a Bluetooth device on almost of the time in comparison of the Bluetooth earbuds which are on when you receive a call or when you listen at music. You are very unlikely to listen at music or talk over phone all the day long. You need to hear all the day long.

      --
      Achille Talon
      Hop!
  3. I've been saying this... by 110010001000 · · Score: 5, Funny

    I've been saying this for years but no one ever listens to me.

    1. Re:I've been saying this... by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 3, Funny

      What??

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    2. Re:I've been saying this... by markus · · Score: 4, Funny

      He said, no one ever listens to him

    3. Re:I've been saying this... by moneybabylon · · Score: 0

      I am sorry I could not hear you.

    4. Re:I've been saying this... by EEPROMS · · Score: 1

      why would they be glistening his bin.

    5. Re:I've been saying this... by unitron · · Score: 3, Funny

      I've been saying this for years but no one ever listens to me.

      Of course not, the batteries in their hearing aids are dead.

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    6. Re:I've been saying this... by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      You need some hearing aids! He said Listerine in sin.

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    7. Re:I've been saying this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hearing aid battery gone flat - again.

      Our new INVENTION fixes that forever. Fire up a discreet 14cc gasoline powered hearing aid battery generator that is so quiet none of our users can hear it. So discreet. So practical.
      Contact JetNoise Hearing aid battery chargers NYC

    8. Re: I've been saying this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're supposed to say, "no one ever HEARS me." Ugh.

    9. Re:I've been saying this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      hahahaha!

    10. Re:I've been saying this... by nanospook · · Score: 1

      *Using Sign Language* He - Pointing at imaginary man Said - tapping mouth No one - Making big O with hand and shaking it, looking Sad :( Listens - making sign for pay attention, looking sadder.. to him -- tapping chest angrily, looking pissed off!

      --
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  4. Also, digital sucks. by antdude · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Analog is still better. Lots of older people complain the digital hearing aids suck even after tweaking and all that. I have had my (fir/1)st digital bone conduction hearing aid since last summer. I hate it. :(

    --
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    1. Re:Also, digital sucks. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      And the valve hearing aids have a much more natural sound.

    2. Re:Also, digital sucks. by AK+Marc · · Score: 4, Informative

      It depends on the hearing issues. Sufferers of APD need the digital ones. You use those, and drop out the frequencies outside the human voice, in order to boost voice above the ambient noise. Analog don't work for that, and make the problem worse, as APD is about brain processing being confused by the extraneous input, so a full-spectrum analog amp just makes the problem worse, when the digital equalizer ones can actually help.

      The best device is greatly dependent on the hearing issue, and the hearing professionals are needed to diagnose the correct medical condition being addressed.

    3. Re:Also, digital sucks. by antdude · · Score: 2

      Well, the problem is that hearing aid companies stopped making analog types like Oticon 380P model for my bone conduction hearing aid. I am currently using its Sumo DM BTE model.

      --
      Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
    4. Re:Also, digital sucks. by srl100 · · Score: 1

      ...and keep your ear(s) warm.

    5. Re:Also, digital sucks. by infinite9 · · Score: 1

      I'm still looking for vacuum tube based hearing aids. The sound is so much warmer.

      --
      Disconnect your television. Do your own research. Draw your own conclusions. They're probably lying. Don't be a sheep.
    6. Re:Also, digital sucks. by nanospook · · Score: 1

      Digital is bad for you, but not for me and I have a severe hearing loss since birth.. Bet your audiologist is your problem.. I went through 3 or 4 of them before a found a gem who "knew" what she was doing..

      --
      Have you fscked your local propeller head today?
  5. Too Complex?? by StormReaver · · Score: 4, Informative

    Hearing aid manufacturers say that diagnosing and treating hearing loss is too complex for consumers to do using consumer devices, without the aid of a professional.

    So we're too stupid to say, "yep, putting this amplifier in my ear makes me hear better"?? These charlatans need to be put out of business.

    1. Re:Too Complex?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The optics industry is next. I pay 85% less than any business owned by luxotica.

    2. Re:Too Complex?? by messymerry · · Score: 1

      These charlatans needed to be put out of business 40 years ago...

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    3. Re:Too Complex?? by vtcodger · · Score: 1

      > Hearing aid manufacturers say that diagnosing and treating hearing loss is too complex for consumers to do using consumer devices, without the aid of a professional.

      To slightly mis-paraphrase Mandy Rice-Davies "Well, they would say that, wouldn't they?" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      --
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    4. Re:Too Complex?? by AchilleTalon · · Score: 1

      You know nothing about hearing aids and hearing, don't you? An hearing aid is much more than an amplifier.

      --
      Achille Talon
      Hop!
  6. Turning up the volume by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Problem is this is only temporary. Turning up the volume only continues to damage the ear nerves and hairs. Im waiting for implants that bypass this 'organic' ear and go direct to brain.

    1. Re:Turning up the volume by inode_buddha · · Score: 1

      They already exist, they're called cochlear implants.

      --
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    2. Re:Turning up the volume by Plus1Entropy · · Score: 2

      Don't those only work with certain types of hearing loss?

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    3. Re:Turning up the volume by AK+Marc · · Score: 4, Insightful

      When the issue is loss of hearing at a specific frequency (common for industrial damage, where a gear running at a specific frequency was heard all day long, and caused loss at that one useful frequency, and the aid re-maps around that hole, rather than running as a pure amp. But for the 80+ year old crowd, they have 2-5 years left, so amping it up improves their quality of life for most of it. Yes, it'll eventually cause full loss, but so does death.

    4. Re:Turning up the volume by jordanjay29 · · Score: 1

      They work best with severe-to-total loss, because once you implant the device, the chosen ear is bypassed and is effectively deaf when the device is off and disconnected from its counterpart. That said, it's often cheaper to go cochlear because insurance, by and large, still doesn't cover hearing aids but they'll cover the surgery and devices for cochlear implants.

    5. Re:Turning up the volume by techno-vampire · · Score: 1

      What you're describing is what's called an artillery notch because it's quite common among soldiers and sailors who've been exposed to too much outbound gunfire. In my case, too much outbound 5"/54 shore support back in '72, although it didn't become a problem until almost forty years later, which isn't that uncommon I gather. I've received three sets of hearing aids from the VA (I lost one from the first set and the second eventually wore out.) at no cost because it's Service Connected.

      --
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    6. Re:Turning up the volume by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Those savings are illusory. TANSTAAFL. Someone's going to pay for that cochlear implant surgery, the implant itself, etc. The insurance company will take it out of someone's hide sooner or later.

    7. Re:Turning up the volume by jordanjay29 · · Score: 1

      Fine, someone will. But we're not talking about the larger economics here, but the specific finances of hearing aids. Versus cochlear implants, it's sometimes more cost effective for a family to choose cochlear for a relative with severe to total hearing loss in one or both ears. If it's the difference between insurance paying and not getting any devices, they'll go with the option insurance covers. For them, the buck is passed, and they don't care where it lands.

    8. Re:Turning up the volume by gweihir · · Score: 1

      But remember the electrodes have only 15-20 years lifetime and then need replacement. As soon as they become permanent, things get more interesting. But that could be a while, considering that they have been at it for nearly 50 years.

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    9. Re:Turning up the volume by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Life expectancy at 80 is about 8 years in the US.

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    10. Re:Turning up the volume by jabuzz · · Score: 1

      Really I would say the whole hearing aid industry is due to go down the toilet the moment they perfect cochlear hair cell regeneration. I would say 10 years max.

      In a similar vein the denture industry is facing extinction the moment they perfect tooth regeneration in humans. Though I predict this will mean a boom for dentists the moment you can have more than one set of adult teeth.

    11. Re:Turning up the volume by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh look, another clueless idiot telling us exactly how long it will take for breakthrough technology to be perfected. Go fuck yourself, really. It takes as long as it takes - it's not going to just bend to your timetable you ignorant twat.

    12. Re:Turning up the volume by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you know that frequency remapping is an absolutely trivial operation in a DSP:

      Y = fft(X);
      memcpy(Z+fmappedstart, Y+fstart, fend-fstart, Z);
      OUT = ifft(Z);

      In other words, you just compute the fourier transform (a trivial standard part of every DSP library), copy the relevant coefficients to the new frequency range, and compute the inverse fourier transform. A more advanced algorithm might interpolate the input frequency range to a different sized output frequency range, still trivial.

      I'm actually surprised so few programmers are familiar with basic DSP techniques, and consider it a black art, when it's mostly such a trivial affair. Once you grasp a few concepts like domain transforms, and start looking at signals plotted in different domains, it becomes really intuitive childsplay.

    13. Re:Turning up the volume by Megol · · Score: 1

      Really? Try to read some literature from the 1920-30s and then compare their predictions with the actual outcome. Then realize that predicting things is near impossible.

      BTW perfect tooth regeneration sounds sweet until one remembers that is essentially impossible in the human body. There still would be a need for dentists.

    14. Re:Turning up the volume by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, the first problem you have is that you're copying over the information where you've remapped the information. So all you've done is moved the frequencies around that the wearer can't hear. Not helpful.

      The better algorithms mix the frequencies that get shifted together with the already existing sound in the output region, so the wearer can hear all the frequencies. The even better ones will monitor the sound levels in the output region and dynamically adjust where it's inserting the shifted data as to not mix things together where they can't be heard. The even fancier ones know about different frequencies normally found in speech, and monitor the input and shift these frequencies around and mix them with the frequencies in the output region so that for the wearer can still understand what people are saying and that speech still sounds natural (as much as possible). And it does all of this in real time without introducing a delay beyond a few milliseconds, all running on a miniature DSP that can run for days off of a tiny zinc-air battery.

      In other words, it's a lot more difficult than a simple memcpy().

  7. Huh by watermark · · Score: 0

    What did you say?

  8. Can you hear me now? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A lot of the "consumer devices" nowadays have very poor audio quality.

    1. Re: Can you hear me now? by Z00L00K · · Score: 1

      If the difference is to hear something or not at all it would help a lot for poor people not being able to affort professional equipment.

      --
      If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
    2. Re:Can you hear me now? by vtcodger · · Score: 1

      > A lot of the "consumer devices" nowadays have very poor audio quality.

      No kidding. And we're not just talking about faithfully reproducing sounds dogs can't hear and other stuff of interest only to audio fanatics. I have no trouble at all understanding sound on AM radio and over our four decade old analog landline. Both of those have quite restricted bandwidth. But a lot of digital phones do truly ghastly things to the human voice.

      --
      You can't see ANYTHING from a car, You've got to get out of the goddamned contraption and walk...Edward Abbey
  9. Poor Audio Quality can be okay by Etherwalk · · Score: 4, Insightful

    A lot of the "consumer devices" nowadays have very poor audio quality.

    So what? If you can pay $200 for a hearing test, $200 for a consumer aid, and have a bad consumer aid that works for $400 instead of NOT BEING ABLE TO PAY FOR a high-quality hearing aid, it's still a net win for you and for society as a whole.

    1. Re:Poor Audio Quality can be okay by Dorianny · · Score: 1

      A lot of the "consumer devices" nowadays have very poor audio quality.

      So what? If you can pay $200 for a hearing test, $200 for a consumer aid, and have a bad consumer aid that works for $400 instead of NOT BEING ABLE TO PAY FOR a high-quality hearing aid, it's still a net win for you and for society as a whole.

      The ideal solution would be to to add hearing-aids to the required "minimum coverage" for health insurance policies. Unfortunately the ACA law which for the first time set minimum health insurance standards and would need to be modified to include hearing-aid coverage, is vehemently opposed by the political party that currently controls both chambers of the Legislative branch

    2. Re:Poor Audio Quality can be okay by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The ideal solution would be to to add hearing-aids to the required "minimum coverage" for health insurance policies.

      Which would mean there would no longer be any $400 devices, they'd all be $2,400 and we'd all suffer to pay for them and the cost would never come down. You have an example of how insurance coverage is distorting the price of goods and you took entirely the wrong lesson from it.

      It is possible to be compassionate towards those who cannot afford health costs without creating economic incentives towards skyrocketing healthcare costs.

    3. Re:Poor Audio Quality can be okay by Cajun+Hell · · Score: 1

      The ideal solution would be to to add hearing-aids to the required "minimum coverage" for health insurance policies.

      I can't think of a worse word than "ideal" there. You have totally ignored the cost, and yet here we were, complaining about the cost. As an ideal solution: fail.

      If it's 10x overpriced and you pay for it with insurance premiums instead of getting the cost down, then you still paid 10x. Fuck that!

      If you want to keep using insurance for this kind of non-sudden-catostrophe stuff, fine (that's a whole other topic, and we can have that argument another day) but don't apply insurance until after you have put competitive forces to bear on the vendors/providers. If the patient isn't going to be shopping around, then have the insurance company ruthlessly shopping around like a Wal-Mart purchasing agent, but FFS have someone be shopping around, making vendors willing to undercut each other by a percentage in order to make the sale. The entire medical industry needs to become like that, and anyone in there who isn't going through all the same stresses the rest of us in other industries are going though, is an opportunity for squeezin'.

      Do they have money for lobbyists? Then you're paying them too much.

      The last thing you should give them, is insurance. (I'm not saying you can't give it to them, but please please have it be last. Don't give them free government handouts-for-nothing until after you have negotiated the handout amount down. At least yell "get a job, hippie!" at them a few times before you pay them.) If you get this wrong, then we're all still going to be looking to consumer electronics companies instead, in order to address the cost. Cost cost cost. That's a key concept here, ok? Cost! Don't forget the cost!

      --
      "Believe me!" -- Donald Trump
    4. Re:Poor Audio Quality can be okay by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      This will require giving the proper government agencies the ability to negotiate with manufacturers, to set a reasonable price. The legal inability to do that is what makes prescription prices so high in the US.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    5. Re:Poor Audio Quality can be okay by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This will require giving the proper government agencies the ability to negotiate with manufacturers, to set a reasonable price.

      Because central planning is so good at optimizing the development, production and distribution of goods?

      The legal inability to do that is what makes prescription prices so high in the US.

      No, what makes prescription prices so high is the government-granted monopoly on drug production.

    6. Re:Poor Audio Quality can be okay by Dorianny · · Score: 1

      Hearing loss is a serious medical condition that has been linked to increased risk of dementia. A consumer device that has to meet absolutely 0 standards on performance and reliability is NOT the same as a device that has gone through clinical trials to prove both of those. Insurance company's do shop around, that is the reason you pay more if you go to a "out of network" provider, the reason not all pharmacy's take all insurance cards as well as the reason why you need to get approval for expensive medication like Gilead's $80,000 Hep C drug that has not competition and the only leverage insurance companies have in negotiations is to limit access of the drug to the people they cover. The only insurance provider that is NOT allowed to negotiate pricing is Medicare, and you can thank the supposedly "Free Market" GOP for that

    7. Re:Poor Audio Quality can be okay by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      NOT BEING ABLE TO PAY FOR a high-quality hearing aid

      This is a HUGE concern. I have multiple grandparents who needed but didn't have hearing aids precisely because of the expense.

      I think that the 'professional' hearing aids are stuck in a niche where they're so expensive that only those of means can afford them, because they're treated like glasses, optional, where if 'everybody' who needed one got one, they would have the volume to be far cheaper.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    8. Re:Poor Audio Quality can be okay by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      This isn't central planning. This is negotiation with leverage.

      The "government-granted monopoly on drug production" is primarily patent law, which is pretty much common across the First World. Why do other countries pay so much less for drugs than we do?

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  10. And there's the kid who made one for $50 by Streetlight · · Score: 2

    Here's a link:

    http://money.cnn.com/2016/04/0...

    I'm not sure about the frequency distribution, range or amplification. It not likely a miniature device, perhaps like those old fashioned devices that people hung on their shirt or coat, but, who knows, some good guys could help him out to miniaturize it. Kick starter any one?

    --
    In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell
    1. Re: And there's the kid who made one for $50 by mspohr · · Score: 1

      Here's one for $12
      http://www.harborfreight.com/u...
      Uniformly positive reviews:
      It works great, I don't have to yell at my husband now to talk to him, the price was great to , the ear Dr. wanted $2800.00 a pair, yours are just $16.00. What a differns it has made.

      --
      I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
    2. Re: And there's the kid who made one for $50 by slazzy · · Score: 1

      I saw a great one using $5 raspberry pi zero. Looked pretty sweet.

      --
      Website Just Down For Me? Find out
    3. Re: And there's the kid who made one for $50 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thanks for the link.

    4. Re: And there's the kid who made one for $50 by Nethead · · Score: 1
      --
      -- I have a private email server in my basement.
  11. And there's the kid who built one for $50 by Streetlight · · Score: 0, Redundant

    Here's a link:

    http://money.cnn.com/2016/04/0...

    I'm sure it's not a small, in ear device, as it uses external ear buds, more like those old fashioned devices that hung from a shirt or coat. Not sure about its frequency range, frequency distribution or amplification. Someone might like to help the kid miniaturize his device. Kick Starter, anyone?

    --
    In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell
  12. I believe this is because diagnosis is important. by tlambert · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I believe this is because diagnosis is important.

    Just stuffing an amplifier in your ear is problematic.

    Conductive hearing loss can (and should be) medically or surgically corrected, where possible, rather than just amplifying the input noises.

    Sensorineural hearing loss are cause by problems in the cochlea and inner ear. This type of hearing loss can result in "band pass" loss, and in the most profound cases, is treatable with implants, if there is still functional cochlear structure. You don't want to treat it with amplification, since you don't want to amplify the bands in which there is no loss, since you'll cause damage there. Tinnitus generally falls into this bucket as well (your *really* do not want to amplify within the bands where you have that!).

    Mixed hearing loss is a combination of the first two; it's typically cause by overpressure, such as being near a load explosion or other structurally damaging event that results in both conductive and sensorineural deficits.

    A CAPD (Central Auditory Processing Disorder) hearing loss means that the mechanical system are generally intact, but that the information processing doesn't happen within the brain. IT's like having an audio processing system, and yanking the DSP out of it.

    Personally, if I had partial damage, I'm going to spend the money on the expensive hearing aides. If I have some function, there's no reason to cook it by amplifying the frequencies that are actually getting through, rather than those which are not.

    And even if you amplify only the frequencies that are getting mechanically dropped -- assuming it's conductive loss from damage, scar tissue, etc. -- you should be careful of harmonics, since those frequencies can additively lead to a problem as well.

    Put it another way.... say you needed an artificial arm ...would you probably wouldn't run down to the nearest street fair and buy a "Toysmith 6135 Galaxy Grabber Robot Claw", merely because it was a cheaper commercially available alternative.

  13. Good hearing aids are far more by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The days of just an amplifier are pretty well long gone. The best ones do a number of things:

    1) Multi-band compression. Compression is reducing the difference between the highest and lowest sounds, and a multi-band compressor does it different amounts for different frequency ranges. Basically an advanced kind f equalization that levels things out, which helps you hear quiet stuff but not get overwhelmed by loud stuff.

    2) Frequency remapping. For hardcore cases of high frequency hearing loss those frequencies can be remapped to lower, still audible frequencies.

    3) Microphone steering. The mics can steer in on conversation and reject background noise pretty effectively. This makes things much more audible in most situations for most people.

    4) Device interfacing. Hearing aids can automatically work with most land lines and cellphones. It isn't via their mic, they do it via induction and so on.

    In particular the first two are the ones you tend to need an audiologist for. You get someone to measure your hearing and see where you are deficient and how much, and then design compression curves to counteract that as best as possible.

    That doesn't mean the devices couldn't and shouldn't be cheaper, but there's a reason for a professional to be involved.

    1. Re:Good hearing aids are far more by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "That doesn't mean the devices couldn't and shouldn't be cheaper, but there's a reason for a professional to be involved."

      Having a professional evaluate your hearing is a good idea, and is not even the expensive part of correcting a hearing loss. The problem is that your specialist is only allowed to prescribe the ridiculously overpriced hearing aids. He/she may have technical info on a good selection from the low-priced devices cited in the article, but the FDA won't allow a professional to do this.

      The auditory equivalent of those Mexican border 'tooth towns" may be the answer (http://www.algodonesdentalimplants.com/).

    2. Re:Good hearing aids are far more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1+ came here to say this, my buddy is a audiologist so we've had technical discussions regarding the different functions of hearing aids.

    3. Re:Good hearing aids are far more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's true: they're not just amplifiers. But the techniques you listed are pretty common on modern phones and the like.

      For multiband compression and frequency remapping: my phone can trivially scale audio frequencies to let me listen to podcasts at multiple times the original recording rate. It does this by remapping frequencies and decimating the data. I suspect it's not that difficult to decimate in the frequency domain, which would provide frequency compression.

      Microphone phased arrays are starting to appear in consumer devices. The Amazon Echo has one (hampered by Amazon's less-than-spectacular voice recognition). This could be easily implemented with hearing aid size devices. For the interface, bluetooth seems to be pretty standard now: cars, phones, laptops, etc.

    4. Re:Good hearing aids are far more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So some basic DSP functions. Yeah, not a big whoop these days. GP comment still stands true.

    5. Re:Good hearing aids are far more by AK+Marc · · Score: 2

      You get diagnosed by a professional, then find the cheap aid that fixes that problem. But you should still see the pro for the diagnosis and recommended aid type.

    6. Re:Good hearing aids are far more by John+Bokma · · Score: 2

      I live in Mexico, and coincidentally I wondered about the crazy price of hearing aids when at Costco last week. 20,000+ .. 50,000+ which translates to 1.147 USD .. 2.867 USD. No idea how good those are compared to the USA.

    7. Re: Good hearing aids are far more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And even with all this, more than half of all hearing aids end up not being used, something the manufacturing industry is keen not to highlight! There are also rather large bribes for audiologist from the manufacturer. When I was working in the industry, large screen TVs and overseas holidays, sorry, training sessions, were offered for clinics who met certain suggested sales levels or only sold a particular brand's devices.

    8. Re:Good hearing aids are far more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All of which could be done in a few lines of code with a Fourier transform, and an automated assessment that plays various conversations against background noises with a 'does A sound better or B' to home in on the optimum settings, like you get at the optician. Hell, it could even do that for different audio regimes (conversation with no other noise, conversation with background noise of other people talking, conversation with urban noise, conversation with background music, music by itself) to discover the most pleasing and optimum settings for each, then automatically apply those settings based on detected frequency energy bands*.

      None of this stuff requires thousand dollar equipment.

      * if such a thing doesn't already exist, then I hereby release the idea into the public domain, cos it's fucking obvious. So don't try and patent that shit.

    9. Re:Good hearing aids are far more by jonwil · · Score: 1

      #1 isn't rocket science, I have a cellphone from 2009 (Nokia N900) that has a bunch of audio processing algorithms including a multi-band dynamic range compressor.

      Not 100% sure about #2 but I bet you could build an app that plays a bunch of different tones and asks you to indicate if you heard the sound or not and from there, programs the device with the range of frequencies that the individual can hear and uses some simple math to adjust the audio to fit into that range.

      #3 seems like the hardest part, maybe its time for someone to invent some open source algorithms designed to pick out and amplify conversations and foreground noise and filter out background noise.

      #4 would be easy to add if you wired it up to Bluetooth (i.e. give it the same stuff as a bluetooth earbud but wired to the speaker in the device) and used a cellphone or landline that supported Bluetooth.

    10. Re:Good hearing aids are far more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I'm not a medical professional or an audologist, but I am an audio professional, and I am familiar with ABX and preferential quality asssesment techniques in the broadcast industry. All of what you described above sounds like absolute childsplay from a DSP and engineering perspective. These are the exact same techniques used for preparing audio for FM and TV broadcast, and microphone steering is used extensively for live event broadcast and recording. Induction coupling for phones is an international standard and is absolutely trivial to implement correctly, the coils for manufactured for this are readily available for under $5 from most major electronic component suppliers.

      I doubt the audiologists calibration technique is much different to the techniques used for ABX quality assessment, and I doubt even if it is, that it couldn't be automated by an interactive computer program.

      The only reason these things are expensive, is that communists have infiltrated the FDA, and turned it from a regulatory organisation into a market protection organisation.

    11. Re:Good hearing aids are far more by StormReaver · · Score: 1

      That doesn't mean the devices couldn't and shouldn't be cheaper, but there's a reason for a professional to be involved.

      There are relatively rare occasions for a high priced hearing professional to be involved, but the vast majority of cases can easily be handled by the individual. It's that vast majority that are shut out by the insanely high prices of hearing aids that give the entire industry a "used car salesman" reputation.

    12. Re:Good hearing aids are far more by Megol · · Score: 1

      I just have to comment: how deluded does one have to be to think that protecting a market is in any way _communist_? LOL!

    13. Re:Good hearing aids are far more by Gramie2 · · Score: 2

      A lot of the people who test hearing and prescribe hearing aids in Ontario have a Hearing Instrument Specialist certificate, which is a two-year college course (can be done online). A bit of a stretch to call that "a professional".

    14. Re:Good hearing aids are far more by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

      If we had the Canadian system, we wouldn't be forced to pay $5000 for a hearing aid that doesn't work.

    15. Re:Good hearing aids are far more by david_thornley · · Score: 2

      3) Microphone steering. The mics can steer in on conversation and reject background noise pretty effectively. This makes things much more audible in most situations for most people.

      This is wonderful when it works, but if I'm in a noisy area I can't choose what I listen to. I once found I could converse better by taking the things out of my ear.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    16. Re: Good hearing aids are far more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Capitalists call anything that's wrong communist, even when what's wrong is a capitalist principle.

    17. Re:Good hearing aids are far more by MrNiceguy_KS · · Score: 1

      I have a feeling that two-year online college course is actually cheaper than a set of hearing aids.

      --
      Redundancy is good And also good.
    18. Re:Good hearing aids are far more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      #1 isn't rocket science, I have a cellphone from 2009 (Nokia N900) that has a bunch of audio processing algorithms including a multi-band dynamic range compressor.

      Yes. And than try do do it on a 10A ZinkAir battery, 16H/day for a week, using /slightly/ more complex algorithms and it suddenly look awfully like rocket science...

      Not 100% sure about #2 but I bet you could build an app that plays a bunch of different tones and asks you to indicate if you heard the sound or not and from there, programs the device with the range of frequencies that the individual can hear and uses some simple math to adjust the audio to fit into that range.

      Like the software done by all hearing aid manufactures, used by audiologist all over the world? Then we just need to change that pesky expert with an AI and the HA can be sold w/o that expert - which also happens to be the salesman...
      The main barrier here is not technology, but market structure.

      #3 seems like the hardest part, maybe its time for someone to invent some open source algorithms designed to pick out and amplify conversations and foreground noise and filter out background noise.

      ...B/C the typical 50+ group of audio algorithm developers working in each of the 6 top manufacturers are so incompetent that someone randomly off the street will come up with something better in absolutely no time. Then again probably not. A really hard part of doing the algorithms is actually mapping them efficiently to the anaemic (compared to the phone above) DSP that has to run 16H/day for 7 days on a really tiny battery.

      #4 would be easy to add if you wired it up to Bluetooth (i.e. give it the same stuff as a bluetooth earbud but wired to the speaker in the device) and used a cellphone or landline that supported Bluetooth.

      ... which is so easy that only 3 of the top manufactures has done it so far.... (hint: At a R&D cost of 20mil$+ each. Silly stuff like power consumption, interference, antennas etc is actually not easy when it has to be fitted into a really small HA.

      If you're willing to change batteries at least once a day, or accept a rather large device it can be done cheaply. If you want to pack it up and stick in in your ear, not so much. Miniaturization is costly.

    19. Re:Good hearing aids are far more by magarity · · Score: 2

      1.147 USD .. 2.867 USD. No idea how good those are compared to the USA.

      The ones in US Costcos are about that price, which if you notice in the summary is less than half what an independent audiologist in the US charges.
      The Costco ones work just fine.

    20. Re:Good hearing aids are far more by John+Bokma · · Score: 1

      Thanks. Not needing one yet, but good to know.

    21. Re:Good hearing aids are far more by kmoser · · Score: 2

      If we had the Canadian system, the hearing aids would only amplify the sound "eh".

  14. Is this an Article or an Add? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hard to tell

  15. Re:I believe this is because diagnosis is importan by jenningsthecat · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Yes, diagnosis can be very important. I learned that during a year-long stint calibrating audiometers and tympanometers in the offices of both hearing instrument practitioners and audiologists. I also learned that some tests are very short and rudimentary; most often these are what customers get at the 'blow it out the door' hearing aid places. Most audiololgists, (and the good, competent HIP's), do in-depth testing that can diagnose problems and potential problems that might otherwise not be found.

    So, in short, I agree with everything you said, and you know a lot more about hearing loss than I do. I also know that there's a degree of sophistication in modern hearing aids that simply can't be had really cheaply, both because of manufacturing costs, and because of a significant amount of original research - even in materials science.

    Having said that, I still have a strong impression that hearing aids are very much over-priced. And I know that the testing equipment, (audiometers in particular), are also very over-priced. The whole industry is ripe for some major disruption, and I suspect the encroachment of cheap consumer devices is only the thin edge of the wedge.

    --
    'The Economy' is a giant Ponzi scheme whose most pitiable suckers are the youngest among us and the yet-unborn.
  16. I think the $2,4000 models are a great deal by damn_registrars · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I recently helped an elderly family member get tested, fitted, etc for hearing aids at an audiology office. Sure, it seems like a lot of money. But the $2,400 covers the hearing aid for three years of whatever you might happen to do to it. That breaks down to $800 per year, or less than $70 per month (per ear). That's less than a cable bill, and less than what most people - even elderly drivers - spend on gas for their cars for a month.

    That said, there is one health care plan that does cover hearing aids 100% that I am aware of - the VA. I know several people who have gotten their hearing aids for free through them and they've been very happy with it.

    Several health insurance plans also offer a small rebate to the customer after they purchase them. The same elderly family member I mentioned before got $500 back from these, and is eligible to do that every 3 years. While I'm not in need of them myself I believe my health insurance plan has a similar arrangement.

    --
    Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
    1. Re:I think the $2,4000 models are a great deal by Plus1Entropy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That said, there is one health care plan that does cover hearing aids 100% that I am aware of - the VA. I know several people who have gotten their hearing aids for free through them and they've been very happy with it.

      Wait a minute, are you saying that government provided health insurance actually works?!

      --
      Only crack the nuts that crack. You don't put the ones that don't crack in the sack.
    2. Re:I think the $2,4000 models are a great deal by Michael+Woodhams · · Score: 1

      So if I'm a retiree with a budget of $350/week = $18200/year, $1600/year for both ears is nearly 10% of my budget just to be able to hear. Lots of people already can't afford cable and can't afford a car. Lets not add can't afford to hear to the list, when adequate solutions are available for 1/10th the price.

      --
      Quattuor res in hoc mundo sanctae sunt: libri, liberi, libertas et liberalitas.
    3. Re:I think the $2,4000 models are a great deal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure, after you wait five years between each appointment.

    4. Re:I think the $2,4000 models are a great deal by sjames · · Score: 1

      Put another way, they could buy inexpensive units off the shelf and set them to the audiologist's prescription and just throw them away when the battery gets weak for less than that, IF the FDA allowed it.

    5. Re:I think the $2,4000 models are a great deal by sociocapitalist · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I recently helped an elderly family member get tested, fitted, etc for hearing aids at an audiology office. Sure, it seems like a lot of money. But the $2,400 covers the hearing aid for three years of whatever you might happen to do to it. That breaks down to $800 per year, or less than $70 per month (per ear). That's less than a cable bill, and less than what most people - even elderly drivers - spend on gas for their cars for a month.

      That said, there is one health care plan that does cover hearing aids 100% that I am aware of - the VA. I know several people who have gotten their hearing aids for free through them and they've been very happy with it.

      Several health insurance plans also offer a small rebate to the customer after they purchase them. The same elderly family member I mentioned before got $500 back from these, and is eligible to do that every 3 years. While I'm not in need of them myself I believe my health insurance plan has a similar arrangement.

      That difference may not play so much here in Europe where consumer electronics have a minimum two year guarantee by law. Consumer protection law that America does not prioritize because corporate profits are more important.
      http://europa.eu/youreurope/ci...

      On the other hand, as medical coverage here tends to be worlds better than in the US it's probably not an issue to get hearing aids here almost for free.

      --
      blindly antisocialist = antisocial
    6. Re:I think the $2,4000 models are a great deal by jordanjay29 · · Score: 2

      That's assuming you get the right hearing aids on the first go around. With so many devices out there, dropping $4800 to try out a device (because once you order them, they're yours) that may not work is foolhardy. It took an elderly parent of my friend three times to find the hearing aid that worked, that's a lot of money to waste.

    7. Re:I think the $2,4000 models are a great deal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Really not, I have no idea where you got that from. Hearing aids at least in Germany are pretty much in the same price range as the ones mentioned here for the US.

    8. Re:I think the $2,4000 models are a great deal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You foolishly assume everyone has large amounts of disposable income. The vast majority of people do not spend $800/yr on TV and that again on gas. There is no such thing as free medical in the US. The costs are picked up elsewhere; either through loading insurance premiums or my tax dollars. Your post is such a shill piece, you must be financially involved.

    9. Re:I think the $2,4000 models are a great deal by peragrin · · Score: 1

      until the iraq and afghan wars the VA was the model of efficiency in healthcare and features. since those wars it has been underfunded by congress needed for the expansion of services(wounded soldiers need more care) and has suffered as a result.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    10. Re:I think the $2,4000 models are a great deal by damn_registrars · · Score: 1

      dropping $4800 to try out a device (because once you order them, they're yours)

      I'm not sure where you were looking at hearing aids - as this may vary by state - but that problem does not exist where I live in the US. The audiologist I brought said elderly relative to carries several models and gave us a model for him to try for 4 weeks at zero cost (beyond the audiology visit, which was covered by his regular health insurance). He was able to wear them for that time and see how they do in different situations, and how they fit. At the end of the 4 weeks he brought them back and had a choice to order the same, try a different model, or just scrap the idea altogether.

      The ones he purchased - which were the same model as the trial ones he initially tried - also have a warranty far better than any consumer electronics item I can think of.

      --
      Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
    11. Re:I think the $2,4000 models are a great deal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >Wait a minute, are you saying that government provided health insurance actually works?!

      You ignorant putz - you have no idea what you're commenting on.

    12. Re:I think the $2,4000 models are a great deal by Lumpy · · Score: 2

      "covers the hearing aid for three years of whatever you might happen to do to it."

      No it doesnt. Loss is not covered and stepping on it is not covered. One of my best friends has a set through the VA and they give you ONE replacement in those three years. You really need to read the actual print on the paperwork and ignore completely what the people at the VA tell you. because what comes out of their mouths is not what is on the paper, and the paper is what matters.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    13. Re:I think the $2,4000 models are a great deal by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      Works? What does that mean in this case? The military industrial complex wants to keep getting its cushy welfare check and VA health insurance is an important PR propaganda tool to ensure consistent influx of fresh meat.

      'Works' in this case is nothing but theft, it is a small part of the overall huge theft perpetrated upon the free individuals by the government. Sure, it works for what it is supposed to work: lining the pockets of war profiteers and helping war profiteering politicians to stay in power. It doesn't work for the rest of the economy.

    14. Re:I think the $2,4000 models are a great deal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >> the VA was the model of efficiency in healthcare and features

      As the child of a man who was a vet disabled in WWII, I can say that it sounds like you don't know a lot about what you're talking about.

    15. Re:I think the $2,4000 models are a great deal by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      Gotta love consistency.

      The hobgoblin of little minds.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    16. Re:I think the $2,4000 models are a great deal by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      Yeah, yeah, as opposed to the opportunism and situationality of the great minds looking to control, enslave and steal.

  17. We need to sue music venues by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I went to a concert last year and left early into the show because the music was way. too. fucking. loud.

    It's one thing to have loud music but this was literally painful.

    1. Re:We need to sue music venues by Michael+Woodhams · · Score: 1

      For hearing, the pain threshold is well above the damage threshold. Painfully loud is way too loud and then a bunch more.

      --
      Quattuor res in hoc mundo sanctae sunt: libri, liberi, libertas et liberalitas.
    2. Re:We need to sue music venues by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If it's too loud, you're too old!! /ROCK ON

  18. ffs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hearing aid manufacturers say that diagnosing and treating hearing loss is too complex for consumers to do using consumer devices, without the aid of a professional.

    No-one, and I mean NO one can know how my ears sound to me better than me! There is a good chance that my being at a docs because loss of hearing over time is: a) because of loud music messing my shit, b) something treatable, c) genetic.

    if (b), great fix it, else gimmee the cheaper option.

    1. Re:ffs by jordanjay29 · · Score: 1

      You know how your ears sound, but they can map your function and analyze it better than you can. They test your response to pitches you may not know you're missing because of the way your brain is adaptive, it may be hiding your hearing loss from you.

  19. Re:I believe this is because diagnosis is importan by tlambert · · Score: 1

    Having said that, I still have a strong impression that hearing aids are very much over-priced. And I know that the testing equipment, (audiometers in particular), are also very over-priced. The whole industry is ripe for some major disruption, and I suspect the encroachment of cheap consumer devices is only the thin edge of the wedge.

    While I know people who would almost literally kill for a hearing aid that actually fit their ear, didn't cause traction soreness, but didn't fall out...

    Yes, they tend to be overpriced. All of it.

    The hearing aids themselves are considered prosthetic devices, even if you just stuff them in your ear, and there's huge regulatory compliance issues surrounding that. Even though they tend not to be covered by insurance for purchase, there's a lot of insurance that goes into the things because of that: liability insurance on the part of the manufacturer (what if you have a degenerative source of hearing loss, and, through no fault of theirs, your hearing continues to deteriorate, and you sue?).

    There's also liability costs for the testing devices, for the same reason (What if it's not calibrated?), and then there's malpractice costs.

    Most medical things end up paying an insurance company 5+ times or more for the same event; the audiologist gets off with only 3/4 payments (if they have their own office, there's liability insurance for ice on the sidewalk...).

    We're not very tolerant of medical things going wrong, and we tend to be pretty litigious when they do. I think that before anything useful happens in terms of price reductions, we're going to have to get them umbrella'ed, just like other prosthetics (yes, eyeglasses and dentures tend to be separate, too!), and then we'll have to do something that will trigger tort reform, like single payer.

    I'm not holding my breathe...

  20. Re:I believe this is because diagnosis is importan by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

    A CAPD (Central Auditory Processing Disorder) hearing loss means that the mechanical system are generally intact, but that the information processing doesn't happen within the brain. IT's like having an audio processing system, and yanking the DSP out of it.

    I describe it as "dyslexia of the ear." People understand dyslexia interferes with understanding visually, but doesn't interfere with vision at all. Most people with APD will pass a regular hearing test just fine, but still have trouble hearing some things.

    But, a hearing aid can help. One that cuts out high and low frequencies, keeping just the human-voice range, will improve the hearing of an APD sufferer, as the extraneous inputs are pre-filtered, so as to lower the confusion in the brain in sorting out and processing the remaining sound.

    Personally, if I had partial damage, I'm going to spend the money on the expensive hearing aides. If I have some function, there's no reason to cook it by amplifying the frequencies that are actually getting through, rather than those which are not.

    Some of the cheap ones have all the features of the expensive ones, and do it as well or better than the expensive ones. They just haven't paid the big bucks for the certifications.

  21. I recently got hearing aids and they help by riverat1 · · Score: 1

    I got my hearing aids in December. It turns out my hearing is close to normal in the lower frequencies but falls off steeply in the higher frequencies. With the aids I am better able to understand women's high pitched voices and things like birds chirping. I could have lived without them but they improve my life a bit. My employee sponsored insurance covered about half the cost so I ended up paying a little over $2K. That included a device called a SurfLink that has built in Bluetooth to hook up to cell phones and to control the aids volume and sound profile. I can change them for listening to live music, being outdoors where wind noise can be a problem or the standard program. There are other programs I have had loaded too. The SurfLink has a built in microphone that can be set to surround or directional mode. In a meeting I can put it across the room so I can hear people on the other side better or in a noisy restaurant I can hand it to my dinning partner . The aids also have a warranty that include no-questions-asked replacement the first time if you lose or destroy them.

    The hearing aids are the behind the ear kind with speaker that snakes around the front of the ear and into the ear canal. The earbud is perforated so the natural sound still comes through and they just enhance the frequencies where I'm deficient.

    So I would say if you want a hearing aid that matches the pattern of your hearing loss you're going to have to get an audiologist involved but I agree the aids are on the expensive side. I'm a little ambivalent about how much I paid but since my health insurance covered half of the cost and I'll be retired in less than a year it was time to strike.

    1. Re:I recently got hearing aids and they help by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      With the aids I am better able to understand women's high pitched voices and things like birds chirping.

      Hearing aids that let you understand women? Sign me up!

      If only they sold some glasses that allowed me to read full sentences....

    2. Re:I recently got hearing aids and they help by jordanjay29 · · Score: 1

      That included a device called a SurfLink that has built in Bluetooth to hook up to cell phones and to control the aids volume and sound profile. I can change them for listening to live music, being outdoors where wind noise can be a problem or the standard program. There are other programs I have had loaded too. The SurfLink has a built in microphone that can be set to surround or directional mode. In a meeting I can put it across the room so I can hear people on the other side better or in a noisy restaurant I can hand it to my dinning partner . The aids also have a warranty that include no-questions-asked replacement the first time if you lose or destroy them. The hearing aids are the behind the ear kind with speaker that snakes around the front of the ear and into the ear canal. The earbud is perforated so the natural sound still comes through and they just enhance the frequencies where I'm deficient.

      Well, I can see they've improved since I stopped wearing mine ten years ago when I was 16. Maybe I should look into getting some again, now that you don't have to go to a clinic every time you want the program tweaked.

    3. Re:I recently got hearing aids and they help by vtcodger · · Score: 1

      > Hearing aids that let you understand women? Sign me up!

      Your reaction is understandable, but I believe there's a 48 hour mandatory cooling off period to allow you to think through the possible consequences of what might prove to be an irrevokable action.

      --
      You can't see ANYTHING from a car, You've got to get out of the goddamned contraption and walk...Edward Abbey
    4. Re:I recently got hearing aids and they help by Lanforod · · Score: 1

      Most of the manufacturers won't give you the applications and connectors needed to tweak yourself yet, no.

  22. Costco hearing aids by Tony+Isaac · · Score: 1

    Costco sells the same hearing aids that you get for $5,000 at an audiologist, but they charge less than $1,000 for them. Consumer Reports recommends considering Costco as an alternative to the high prices normally charged by audiologists.

    http://www.consumerreports.org...

    1. Re:Costco hearing aids by antdude · · Score: 1

      Too bad they can't do severe hearing like mine since birth. They turned me away because they didn't do my type (bone conduction).

      --
      Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
    2. Re:Costco hearing aids by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Most people need amplification that's selective by frequency, which is dead easy to do these days. Unfortunately, some people are always going to have expensive problems.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  23. Topical slashdot ad by Opportunist · · Score: 1

    "Audiologist courses online!"

    Seriously? The very article tells me that even if I got a degree out of that worth more than toilet paper it wouldn't get me a Job...

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    1. Re:Topical slashdot ad by Gramie2 · · Score: 1

      In Canada, audiology is a Master's program.

  24. Still too much by ArchieBunker · · Score: 1

    Those hearing aids have like $20 worth of parts inside. If they weren't a "medical device" they would cost 1/10 of that.

    --
    Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
    1. Re:Still too much by gweihir · · Score: 1

      R&D, testing of the patient's problem, adjustment, etc. are what drives cost. Remember that an iPhone has parts for something like $150.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    2. Re:Still too much by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      R&D, testing of the patient's problem, adjustment, etc. are what drives cost. Remember that an iPhone has parts for something like $150.

      And I would never buy an iPhone, I would buy a Chinese Android phone with the same or better parts for $200.

  25. Thanks for doing the math for us by rebelwarlock · · Score: 1

    Hearing aids cost an average of nearly $2,400 each, or close to $5,000 a pair

    Just in case we're deaf -and- retarded.

    1. Re:Thanks for doing the math for us by jordanjay29 · · Score: 1

      How does being deaf impede your ability to read and calculate numbers?

  26. Re:I believe this is because diagnosis is importan by tlhIngan · · Score: 2

    Yes, they tend to be overpriced. All of it.

    Yes, they are. Because the electronics part is pretty damn cheap thanks to modern electronics - an ADC, DSP and DAC combination is stupidly cheap. Hell, people are surprised when they spend $2000 on an "audiophile DAC" that the actual chip itself... cost under $5.They're mass produced because every sound emitting device has one, and even stupidly high end ones that do 24bit/192kHz are cheap. Nevermind the "basic" 16bit/48kHz units (which really are all you need for practical purposes since there's few environments a normal person will be in that has more than 50-60 dB of dynamic range, and 16 bits gets you 96dB)

    The DSP itself is fairly cheap because audio is fairly undemanding - with clock rates in the hundreds of MHz and audio output rates around 48kHz, trivial. DSP algorithms are fairly standard.

    It's why those "not a hearing aid" devices sell for under $100 easily.

    One of the other reasons they're popular is well, you get a lot of people who won't admit to having hearing problems, so they won't want to see a doctor about it, but they can go and buy these things so cheaply that are so tiny and are practically invisible. (Face it - when we see hearing aid, we remember the big clunky things that you needed Dumbo-sized ears to hide, while the "not-a-hearing-aid" ads all tout how you might accidentally swallow them thinking they're pills.

  27. Re:I believe this is because diagnosis is importan by sjames · · Score: 2

    Put it another way.... say you needed an artificial arm ...would you probably wouldn't run down to the nearest street fair and buy a "Toysmith 6135 Galaxy Grabber Robot Claw", merely because it was a cheaper commercially available alternative.

    Actually, there have been a number of articles right here on /. about people getting cheap 3D printed prosthetics that they report work better for them than the outrageously expensive ones the FDA likes.

    Simple principle, if it costs more than you have, it doesn't exist for any practical purpose. This seems to be beyond the FDA's comprehension.

  28. Re:I believe this is because diagnosis is importan by sjames · · Score: 1

    And yet somehow, everyone and his dog manages to make dirt cheap and very loud MP3 players without a single concern for any of that.

  29. View from the inside by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I worked as a commercial director for a hearing aid company for 6 months.

    We made margins of 80% (i.e. 5 x cost) on the aids, which for the most part were govt subsidised. Our audiologists would only prescribe our govt approved aids, and didn't have any incentive to look at the cheaper models.

    A properly fitted aid needs three visits to the audiologist. Very few patients went to all three visits, and the majority of people who were prescribed aids discontinued their use within one year, mostly for vanity, but also because a hearing aid can only do so much for you.

    We telemarketed our hearing aids to anyone over 50, inviting them in for free hearing tests. I personally had tests too, and was within the range whereby I would qualify for a hearing aid, although I have never experienced any problems in normal communication, in loud bars, or in any other situation, and this was 7 years ago.

    So I can confirm that, yes, hearing aids are far too expensive and regularly sold to people who don't need them.

    1. Re:View from the inside by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We made margins of 80% (i.e. 5 x cost) on the aids

      Isn't 5x a 400% profit margin, not 80%?

  30. Please also make high-end Bluetooth headsets by jan_koch · · Score: 1

    I hope this will also lead to improvements in consumer devices for people without hearing impairment. I am always jealous when I see what an elegant device my father's hearing aid is. All the Bluetooth headsets that I have tried, even at the very high end, are extremely clumsy beasts in comparison. If the experience from lower-end hearing aids trickles down to high-end Bluetooth headsets, that will improve my life considerably.

  31. the milks gone bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    sounds like the industry cashcow has dried up. cant wait for the claims that nonmedical hearing aids may cause hearing loss because they arent certified.

    something akin to sysadmins being replaced by outsourcing/visa workers.

    baz

  32. Re:I believe this is because diagnosis is importan by gweihir · · Score: 1

    Indeed. It is a bit like people that self-prescribe contact-lenses. That is not a good idea at all and can have very serious negative consequences, as the regular checks you should do are there to catch problems before the patient notices. AFAIK, the results were generally so bad that you cannot get lenses without a prescription in the US.

    --
    Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  33. Re:I believe this is because diagnosis is importan by gweihir · · Score: 1

    In the EU, they have relatively low maximum noise levels, required by law. You can set many of them to US though, and then are able to deafen yourself again. I know, because sometimes I hear music over sound-dampening earplugs (-35dB) if some environmental noise really annoys me. With EU settings, not a chance. US settings will happily deliver something that is loud even in this situation.

    --
    Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  34. Soundhawk for those hearing on one ear only? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I checked the mentioned Soundhawk product site.
    To me it feels like an interesting product to those who hear (fully capable) on one ear, but not at all on the other (e.g. from birth on). I have friends that are in this situation and they are always struggling heavily in loud social situations like restaurants, parties or lots of kids etc due to lack of spatial hearing. They always have to choose seats at a certain end and side of the table to be able to somehow participate. It's the background noise problem.

    Conventional hearing aid for the "good" ear do not specifically adress the topic (and they only need an aid in specific situations, so easy in and out is a topic) and for the "bad" ear neither because it's completely disfunctional.

  35. Affordability by redcliffe · · Score: 1

    I think largely it comes down to this: The hearing aid you can have is better than the one you can't have because you can't afford it.

  36. Hearing response to seeing the bill. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Huh! It's $5k for that hearing aid! "What did you say? Did I hear you right? Speak clearly so that I can understand you"

    My Uncle got hearing aids, but he always turned them off so that he couldn't hear my aunt complain or order him around. He said, it was the best invention
    he ever had and that the "off" switch was great!

  37. USA really needs to rethink healthcare! by Pete+(big-pete) · · Score: 2

    I was interested to read in the article, "Medicare does not pay for them, nor do most insurers".

    How is this even possible? You have overpriced healthcare in the USA, and then even if you have insurance, it won't pay for the treatment you need?!

    Just for those people that think the NHS is a terrible thing, I'll just leave this here - hearing diagnosis, treatment, and aids are free on the NHS in the UK for people that need them...

    -- Pete.

    1. Re:USA really needs to rethink healthcare! by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      Thank Mitt Romney for his destruction of our healthcare and allowing the insurance companies to write our "affordable health care" law.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    2. Re:USA really needs to rethink healthcare! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My hearing is already -10dB from normal, and also rolls off at -20dB per decade, starting at 300Hz. I sat in the front of all my classes, but once I took the upper division EE courses, I could not understand the professor's thick accent. I tried the university's stenographers, but they could not cope with the lectures (electrodynamics, microwave design, DSP). Hearing aids cost $5000+/pair at the time, with no guarantee that they would work. Somebody told me about Costco's cheaper hearing aids, $2K/pair with fitting included. Yeah, Costco and a credit card saved me. Funny feature: If you're in a room and Journey is on, the noise suppression reduces Steve Perry's vocals. Also, the poor stenographers were trying so hard... I'd see on a laptop screen "if we take the Fourier transform of the OBJECTION".

    3. Re:USA really needs to rethink healthcare! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My hearing is already -10dB from normal, and also rolls off at -20dB per decade, starting at 300Hz. I sat in the front of all my classes, but once I took the upper division EE courses, I could not understand the professor's thick accent. I tried the university's stenographers, but they could not cope with the lectures (electrodynamics, microwave design, DSP). Hearing aids cost $5000+/pair at the time, with no guarantee that they would work. Somebody told me about Costco's cheaper hearing aids, $2K/pair with fitting included. Yeah, Costco and a credit card saved me. Funny feature: If you're in a room and Journey is on, the noise suppression reduces Steve Perry's vocals. Also, the poor stenographers were trying so hard... I'd see on a laptop screen: "if we take the Fourier transform of the OBJECTION".

    4. Re:USA really needs to rethink healthcare! by radarskiy · · Score: 1

      "once I took the upper division EE courses, I could not understand the professor's thick accent."

      Your hearing wasn't the problem.

    5. Re:USA really needs to rethink healthcare! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is pretty common for people with profound deafness (that is treatable with aides) in the USA, to take out the equivalent of a car loan to pay for the modern hearing aides they need. I've always been about half deaf and at 38 years old, I'm really looking forward to being able to finally afford a pair of hearing aides sometime in the next five years.

    6. Re:USA really needs to rethink healthcare! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is pretty common for people in the USA with severe deafness to take out the equivalent of a car loan to pay for the advanced hearing aides they need. I'm 38 years old, have a PhD in Genetics/Bioinformatics, and have always been ~50% deaf in the frequencies used in human speech (with extra sensitivity in frequencies both higher and lower than speech). I'm really looking forward to being able to afford hearing aides sometime in the next five years.

    7. Re:USA really needs to rethink healthcare! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Medicare guarantees coverage for a lot of items, and in the past such guarantees ensure that said items are abused. For example, Medicare covers electric wheelchairs, and this led to an entire cottage industry of selling cheap crappy scooters with chairs attached to them as if they were wheelchairs that listed for five thousand more. It was so profitable that there were television ads and the sales reps would do all the necessary paperwork for Medicare "giving you a free wheelchair".

      My sister-in-law, who legitimately needed a motorized wheel chair responded to the offer. To this day, I swear that I believe the more expensive wheel chair was obviously more expensive, but probably a better value. The cheap, but fully covered by Medicare chair wasn't the chair that Medicare recommended, and was a piece of crap.

  38. Insurance leeches by smooth+wombat · · Score: 1, Insightful

    and Medicare does not pay for them, nor do most insurers.

    No, why would insurance pay for something which is medically necessary or might improve the quality of a person's life. You're only paying to them to do. . . well, I'm not really sure what we're paying insurance companies to do. They never want to pay for anything, always making you pay and pay and pay, then pay some more.

    Insurance companies. We're like the mafia, only legal.

    --
    We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
    1. Re:Insurance leeches by Gramie2 · · Score: 1

      Even in Canada, with our single-payer healthcare, hearing aids are not normally covered by insurance. Nor are dental or visual issues, which are just as much a part of health as the areas that are covered.

      I have trouble believing that it is due to anything other than the established practitioners trying to protect their independence and, not incidentally, their lucrative revenue streams.

  39. Marketing by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 1

    The smart company will hire Garret Morris to be their Shoutsperson.

  40. Industry FUD by Lumpy · · Score: 1

    Hearing aid manufacturers say that diagnosing and treating hearing loss is too complex for consumers to do using consumer devices, without the aid of a professional.

    Yep of course it is! we must protect our very lucrative profit centers selling $40.00 devices for $4500

    I have disassembled old broken hearing aids, they are not that complex. they intentionally lock people out of the dsp so you cant adjust it yourself.

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    1. Re:Industry FUD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Agreed.

      We have inexpensive computers and smart phones, etc. Why not hearing aids? Answer? Classified as medical devices. Gotta protect that cartel.

      I'll gladly pay an audiologist or professional for his recommendations, but then I want to buy the equipment from an unbiased source.

      I wear hearing aids. Relatively recent development. For work I got 2nd hand a unitron utv1 (wireless bluetooth connector for devices to hearing aids). Except audiologist could not pair it to my 'newer model' hearing aids. Not supported. They 'key' the devices to retain control.

      It's B.S. Screw them.
      (p.s. i'm not technically savvy enough to figure it out, but I'm sure it can be done)

  41. rock comment is stupid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    lots of people loose function as they age; trivializing what is a severe handicap is insensitive
    it is like saying, to bad if you get cancer cause you ate badly as a teenager

    PS: as someone with aged parents, I hope the hearing aid mfrs and audiologists wind up homeless; they are the worst scum on earth

  42. Re:I believe this is because diagnosis is importan by Gramie2 · · Score: 1

    Part of the cost is the lavish trips that manufacturers give to audiologists and Hearing Instrument Specialists who sell their products, the kind of exotic vacations where you have a seminar for one morning out of a week-long stay in a tropical resort. (Not taxed as income for the audiologists, either.)

    Doctors used to get these, but now it's typically dinner at a nice restaurant in exchange for listening about the latest devices/medications. Audiologists are still at the trough and saying that they aren't being influenced.

  43. Translation by JustAnotherOldGuy · · Score: 1

    "Hearing aid manufacturers say that diagnosing and treating hearing loss is too complex for consumers to do using consumer devices, without the aid of a professional."

    Translation: "Protect our wildly lucrative business model!!"

    Yeah, OF COURSE hearing aid manufacturers would say that, and in a few specific instances they may be right. But in the vast majority of cases it's bullshit.

    --
    Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
  44. hearing aids by ole_timer · · Score: 1

    I lost my balance and hearing in one ear. I have a wireless hearing aid that sends the sound entering the bad ear and then my brain figures out that it's on that side. works great.

    --
    nothing to see here - move along
    1. Re:hearing aids by ole_timer · · Score: 1

      and my insurance still did not pay for them after $300k worth of surgery and recovery

      --
      nothing to see here - move along
  45. let's compare to glasses by j2.718ff · · Score: 1

    If you're nearsighted, and want to buy glasses in the US, you need a prescription, and your glasses will be expensive. If you're farsighted, you can go to any drug store, and pick up a pair of glasses for $5. (Naturally, getting the correct prescription, particularly if both eyes have different requirements will cost about the same as those nearsighted glasses.)

    I suppose the difference is that nearsighted people are generally getting the sort of glasses they'll wear all day. But the cheap reading glasses you can buy at a drugstore are generally just for reading, and thus not worn full-time.

    There is a workaround, though -- buy from China. There are many options where you can buy glasses online, with whatever strength you wish, without the need for an official prescription. I suggest hearing aids will do in a similar direction -- it will remain true that the ideal fit, and the best quality comes from visiting a doctor, getting a proper prescription, and having the product adjusted to fit you by a professional. But, for a significantly lower price, you can get a similar product that will do a good enough job, but leave you on your own to work out the details.

    1. Re:let's compare to glasses by yodleboy · · Score: 1

      I've found the major cost for glasses is the frames, not the lenses. If you don't care what they look like, most eyeglass places will have plenty of cheap-o frames. If you care even a little bit, the prices go through the roof. My solution, go to eyeglass provider and sample frames to find what I like. Go online and search. You can usually find frames at a fraction of the price and the provider can't really pull out the "we don't make lenses for that brand/model" argument since you can always point to them on display...

    2. Re:let's compare to glasses by samwichse · · Score: 1

      Yes, the lenses are usually less than the cost of the frames... unless you go nuts with all the anti-glare, anti-scratch, transitions coatings etc.

      But honestly, your best bet is: buy your frames online for a steep discount, then find a good local optician to cut your lenses. The online places suck at lenses and I wouldn't trust them, they cut the prescriptions wrong, reverse eyes, wrong astigmatism angle, you name it. If your local guy gets it wrong, its easy to go in for a regrind.

      Sam

  46. What? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/hphotos-xaf1/t51.2885-15/s320x320/e15/11243875_931372583551096_1025337476_n.jpg

  47. Re:I believe this is because diagnosis is importan by tlhIngan · · Score: 1

    So, in short, I agree with everything you said, and you know a lot more about hearing loss than I do. I also know that there's a degree of sophistication in modern hearing aids that simply can't be had really cheaply, both because of manufacturing costs, and because of a significant amount of original research - even in materials science.

    Actually, not really. Thanks to modern electronics, and smartphones in particular, the pieces you need are stupidly cheap. At the most basic level, you need a microphone, an ADC, a DSP, a DAC, and a speaker. the ADC and DAC are often one unit and cost only around $2 or so, while the DSP might cost $10 or less. The microphone and speaker themselves are fairly cheap parts too (couple bucks each) . They're basically the same set of components you find in a smartphone, and audio level ADCs and DACs are so mass produced that they're small cheap and plentiful. And low power.

    The DSP software also uses pretty standard algorithms created for mobile and other industries. Even the packaging technology of flat flex PCBs is cheap. Sure there's some 3D envelope designing required to fit the form factor, but yeah, modern EDA tools support 3D designs as well.

    The reality is, a modern hearing aid, and the "not a hearing aid" devices are likely quite similar inside, if not identical. The raw electronics themselves are fairly cheap which is why the "not a hearing aid" devices can be hand for $100 or so. Real hearing aids are probably manufactured identically, with the difference being insurance, certification, etc.

  48. Re:I believe this is because diagnosis is importan by david_thornley · · Score: 1

    I went to an audiologist, who spent some time running hearing tests on me. This included a bone conduction test, and a check to see if amplification worked, but nothing more sophisticated. There was no attempt to find band pass loss, or to exempt my tinnitus. I got a smooth amplification curve, high frequencies being boosted much more than low.

    I spent the money on the expensive aids, but I have enough money that it wasn't a problem. I have a friend who had serious hearing loss and just couldn't scare up $2K to deal with it. If I needed an artificial arm, I wouldn't go for the cheapo commercial alternative, but I have friends who would have to, or go armless.

    I think it would be far better to have low-end alternatives than to require everyone to spend kilobucks or go without.

    --
    "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  49. Nice to see Soundhawk mentioned... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I worked on the firmware for the Soundhawk.. nice to see it mentioned. Uses a CSR8670 chip - a pretty decent chip which does practically everything imaginable (radio, CPU, DSP, battery charging, analog, soup-to-nuts) in a single tiny wafer-scale BGA - however I thoroughly un-recommend it to anyone as it forces you to use (it's a custom CPU core, there's no other option) one of the worst and most annoying IDEs yet devised, and I'm including "punched cards" and "setting CPU opcodes with toggle switches". The debugger's idea of helping you diagnose an error is to pop up a dialog saying "Lost connection to target" and inviting you to reboot it. {Shudders at the memories}

  50. Re:I believe this is because diagnosis is importan by david_thornley · · Score: 1

    Yes, getting contact lenses without medical assistance is dangerous, because the lenses can have serious ill effects on their own. Leave the lenses in too long and the cornea will get too little oxygen, prompting blood vessels to grow into the cornea, causing legal blindness*. In grad school, my vision prof had this. He could tell light from dark, but told us not to bother raising our hands because it wouldn't do any good, and carried Braille lecture notes.

    As long as there's loudness caps, hearing aids aren't going to do anything this bad. It's possible that they could irritate the ear canal, but that's not anywhere near that bad. Even perforating the eardrum would be much preferable to capillaries in the cornea. This is not a valid comparison.

    *For any of you out there dumb enough to believe in Intelligent Design as a faux-scientific gloss on Creationism, explain the human eye. It looks to me more like the product of Stupid Design.

    --
    "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  51. Re:I believe this is because diagnosis is importan by Agent0013 · · Score: 1

    Put it another way.... say you needed an artificial arm ...would you probably wouldn't run down to the nearest street fair and buy a "Toysmith 6135 Galaxy Grabber Robot Claw", merely because it was a cheaper commercially available alternative.

    It's funny you use the artificial arm as your example. There are a lot of news stories of people building hands or arms for people using 3D printers for much lower costs than the medical ones cost. It is basically the same thing. Either the kid has to do without, or someone with a 3D printer makes a hand for him and he functions very well. But we don't want that, do we? Not enough money going into the 1%ers pockets!

    --

    -- ssoorrrryy,, dduupplleexx sswwiittcchh oonn.. -Quote found on actual fortune cookie.
  52. Re:I believe this is because diagnosis is importan by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Some of the cheap ones have all the features of the expensive ones, and do it as well or better than the expensive ones. They just haven't paid the big bucks for the certifications.

    Such as which ones? How does one program their frequency response profile to match the gap in my hearing?

  53. Re:I believe this is because diagnosis is importan by RespekMyAthorati · · Score: 1

    But size matters!
    In a typical in-ear unit, the entire volume of the device (DAC+amp+microphone+speaker+circuit board) is less than 1/2 a cubic cm, smaller than a regular DAC chip by itself. Those are ones that cost 3 grand per ear.

    Trying to fit all these components into such a tiny volume is really tricky engineering, and requires assembly under a microscope.
    If you don't mind one of the old-fashioned kind that hang around your neck like an iPod, then it could be make dirt cheap.

  54. Re:I believe this is because diagnosis is importan by tlambert · · Score: 1

    Some of the cheap ones have all the features of the expensive ones, and do it as well or better than the expensive ones. They just haven't paid the big bucks for the certifications.

    Such as which ones? How does one program their frequency response profile to match the gap in my hearing?

    Exactly this problem.

    The answer is: You don't program it. While most cell phone baseband chips would not have any problem with the SDR being used to receive radio stations, you will be hard put to find a cell phone that uses them this way, because, despite the parts being there, there's no way to get them programmed up to the correct specification being exposed as part of the product definition.

    Make things louder? Yes. Match the correct frequency response profile? Possible in hardware; impossible in software.

  55. Re:Medical Devices?!? - relentless marketing! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I happen to work at a printing company that makes "marketing materials" (junk mail) for one particular brand of hearing aid.
    We crank this spam out at the average rate of half a million per week, every week.
    Tell me that that don't cost plenty!

  56. Hearing aids are non-transferable by rlh100 · · Score: 1

    You don't actually own the hearing aids, you license them. I discovered this when my father died and I wanted to have his $2K each hearing aids refitted for me. I was flatly told by the audiologist that he could not do that because the manufacturer did not allow it.

    I wound up giving them to a charity that provided hearing aids for the disadvantaged.

  57. What sort of a healthcare system is this? by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

    Hearing aids cost an average of nearly $2,400 each, or close to $5,000 a pair,

    That is insane. The actual cost is more like 1/10th of that.

    and Medicare does not pay for them

    So - vote for a sane health policy.

    nor do most insurers.

    And don't buy insurance once you do have a sane health policy.

    By the seven meaty balls of the Flying Spaghetti Monster (Sauce be upon Them), have you people learned nothing since you ran away from the mother country?

    --
    Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
  58. Wrong Business is Under Pressure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ok, there's something to be said for helping the elderly.

    But over the long term, this isn't going to fix the problem.

    Hearing loss in children today is 30% higher then it was in the 1990's in the Western world. That's huge! Worse, it's been known for decades that people from industrialized societies have measurable hearing loss compared to primitive peoples even by the age of 18.

    We have an enormous problem with noise in our modern societies, and treating the symptoms isn't going to effect a cure.

    We need to be putting other businesses under pressure.

    DJs, restaurants, nightclubs, bands, construction companies, factories, and so forth need to be under the same pressure to use and adopt consumer electronics that can help prevent the damage from happening in the first place.

    We have the ability to build reasonably inexpensive equipment to measure sound levels. From that starting point, we can build equipment to help prevent hearing loss from happening, by making it easy to detect potentially dangerous exposure.

    There should be big LED panels in every restaurant or nightclub or similar setting that show sound level measurements to customers. Every DJ and band should have a reliable sound level meter, and know how to use it. Procedures need to be worked out to effectively make good sound level measurements, since sound is a wave phenomenon with constructive and destructive interference, and reflections and absorption, so sound can vary considerably from point to point. This may also require that we need to be keeping people away from speakers (perhaps putting them in a high ceiling instead of next to a dance floor, for example).

    The police should have portable units designed to allow the sound level measurement be admissible in court, should be routinely be checking sound levels in places like nightclubs, and should be charging operators/managers/djs/bands etc with battery when they are violating the limits. Since nightclubs and restaurants are workplaces as well, the laws on employee safety in the workplace are also applicable.

    But that isn't enough. We need individual protection.

    Cell phones should have sound level measures running whenever they're turned on (sampling at some reasonable rate), and track total exposure throughout the day, with warnings for the user when they run past some reasonable limits. Same for cars. Every stereo system sold or installed on a commercial basis (such as in a car, or a home stereo, or amplified speakers) should be required to have similar technology. Headphones for ipods and tablets should also support measuring sound levels, perhaps with something to notify parents as well. And so forth...

    The sound issue isn't just a hearing damage issue. Modern studies show that some forms of environmental noise are linked to a whole host of health issues, including noise at surprisingly low levels (e.g. the HYENA study). Consumer electronics can and should be used to measure noise transmission in buildings, so this information is available when buying a house or renting. We already have much tighter building standard for heating and cooling, but those standards need to be extended to older buildings, possibly meaning that they have to be re-built (excepting those of historical significance), and the electronics for sound measurement can be used to check that the new construction meets more rational standards.