Slashdot Mirror
Slashdot Asks: Have You Experienced Ageism? (observer.com)
Friday the Huffington Post wrote that "Ageism runs rampant through Silicon Valley, where older workers are frequently overlooked for jobs." They ran tips from the man who recruited Tim Cook for Apple, who pointed out that it's difficult and expensive to recruit new talent, urging businesses to "stop seeing workforce diversity as a good deed; it's good business."
And earlier this month The Observer ran an article by Dan Lyons, a writer for HBO's "Silicon Valley," who shared his perspective on ageism from his time at HubSpot. Their CEO actively cultivated an age imbalance, bragging that he was "trying to build a culture specifically to attract and retain Gen Y'ers," because, "in the tech world, gray hair and experience are really overrated."
Meanwhile, Slashdot reader OffTheLip writes: Information technology is a young business in comparison to many other industries but one of the few where older workers are not valued for their institutional knowledge... As a recently retired techie I experienced this firsthand, both as an older worker, and earlier in my career [as] one who didn't see the value in older workers. As Lyons states, older workers are good business.
What are your thoughts? And have you experienced ageism?
Meanwhile, Slashdot reader OffTheLip writes: Information technology is a young business in comparison to many other industries but one of the few where older workers are not valued for their institutional knowledge... As a recently retired techie I experienced this firsthand, both as an older worker, and earlier in my career [as] one who didn't see the value in older workers. As Lyons states, older workers are good business.
What are your thoughts? And have you experienced ageism?
With the amount of angry whitebeards inhabiting /., we can expect a totally calm and reasonable discussion of the topic.
we all KNOW this is a problem.
we all know h1b is a problem.
but the place where it needs to be discussed - the national stage of public opinion, perhaps prompted by news coverage (crickets chirping sound heard) - it is NOT discussed. its swept under the rug.
I'm in the bay area, I'm over 50 and I've been a sw/hw guy since my teens. I'm currently out of work, looking, and its been dead for months, for me, so far. this is typical and usual, sad to say, and I have a little more time left before I'm empty and near bankruptcy again. yet again. I don't know if I'll ever see reliable employment in tech ever again.
I have tons of experience and a great resume. but I'm older, white, male, independant and aware of management's BS; and I guess ALL of that is out of favor for hiring prospects.
I really wish this was made more visible to non-geeks. taking to geeks is not useful, about this, as we all know about it already.
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"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
While I'm sure some small number of companies may in fact try to hire a younger crowd, why would I want to work there anyway? A big part of the reason a company is usually doing that is either to pay less or work people much more, or a combination of both...
The large majority of companies I've seen have older workers, are totally fine with middle age and older technical staff. So a few companies who take age into account do not hurt job prospects.
A big pat of success for me personally has been keeping ahead of technical trends, and making sure not to fall into some pit of technology you cannot escape from and do not enjoy. if you enjoy technical work the keeping up to date is fun and the enthusiasm for your work shows. It also helps a lot to respect co-workers and be someone others enjoy working with, instead of just tolerating.
Another reason why it should be LESS hard as an older worker to find work is the connections and friends you make over the years. That's by far the best way to find jobs anyway, and building up good connections over years is less hard for traditionally more withdrawn technical people than cold-starting a relationship with someone in a company you are trying to hire into.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I have hired over-40 programmers who were rockstars, and some over-40 workers who just could not deliver.
Age is just one variable among many, but people obsess over it because it is easier to ballpark someone's age in an interview than it is to get a read on other indicators of talent.
The biggest problem is that over-40 workers are universally more expensive than the 20's workers. They all want to jump in at the senior level, and feel justified in this based on their experience. This makes them a bigger risk to take, and ultimately more expensive if they don't pan out.
On the other hand, too much investment in kids results in software that works upfront but absolutely does not scale, and winds up full of ticking time bombs.
well, my friend
(turns on yoda voice)
you will be. you *WILL* be.
(/voice)
think long and hard about it. while you dance today, tomorrow will be different.
and that thought actually gives me delight. the SOB bastards that are fucking me and my kind over right now; they'll soon experience it and while I won't be there to laugh, I'll laugh now in advance.
HA!
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"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
Am 51, and for the last decade I've experience some, yes. The most overt was for a Bay Area startup position that was going swimmingly until I did a Skype with the (much younger) DoE, and he saw I was "old". (Guess he couldn't read a resume.) But the more annoying ageism is a general assumption by some of the kids that if there is a difference of opinion on an engineering question, it's because the old guy is clinging to his anachronistic ways. Version control? Testing? Even a one-page design doc? Don't be such an old fuddy duddy!! :-)
It has its plusses, though. As an old guy, you realize that there's serious money to be made cleaning up after the kids. And experience can often tell you which projects are sure failures, which can save working on something hopeless for a year.
Is it ageism when I turn down work because the company wants my experience but is only willing to pay the price of a someone straight out of college?
But yes ..I have experienced ageism in a former company. I once worked for a company that had a president like the mentioned HubSpot CEO. Me and 3 other middle career hires once sat around with dropped jaws during one company meeting when he gushed over hiring people straight out of college because then he could "shape" them into the perfect company workers. Where as he couldn't do that with older hires. Apparently us older workers with all our experience were outright trouble makers.
Fortunately I was only at that place for 6 months.
I am Slashdot. Are you Slashdot as well?
I'll show you ageism, you little shits. If I have to get out of this chair, somebody's gonna cry.
You are welcome on my lawn.
I can see you are young. you think its about SPECIFIC SKILLS.
lol
its not. a good guy in C can get any job done, really. c++ guy, java guy, whatever. this insistance on specific domain knowledge IS THE PROBLEM!
we used to have people who knew how to code and would learn the specifics on the job. that worked and it can still work, but companies are spoiled fucking rotten and they have had too much specific selection for too long. they now only want narrow skills and you can't keep chasing that and stay employed. there are too many things that come and go for you to retrain on specifics like that and still be effective.
your view is part of the problem! you really do seem to think that its 'old skills' that is the problem. I guarantee you that even if I had the latest 'skilz' that the grads leave school with, today, that will still not be enough. I demand a salary that is higher than theirs and companies refuse to pay unless they absolutely have to. they generally talk themselves into paying younger kids, for all the reasons mentioned in all the threads, here.
its not about skills. that argument does not hold water if you have been in the industry long enough.
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"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
Not without being a mind-reader.
I do know that after a long and very successful career I took two years off to deal with health issues with one of my kids (now happily resolved) and thereafter as an over-50 engineer with an employment gap I was pretty much unemployable.
My experiences in the interviews I got suggest something subtly different than ageism -- at least of the sort that believes older engineers can't do the work. I'd meet with a bunch of people and everyone would seem excited and enthusiastic about my background... except the hiring manager. Whomever I was going to work for would seem distinctly colder, as if they'd decided I wasn't going to get the job before they even met me.
I think what's going on is that people don't like the idea of supervising someone who is older and highly experienced. Maybe they think a more experienced worker would be less cooperative. Or maybe they were afraid we'd be angling for their job. I don't think, given my resume, that anyone believed I couldn't do the work. They just doubted my word that I really wanted the job because of my experience.
Is that ageism?
I think it's very common for more experienced engineers who've reached the point where they've been doing engineering management to want to get back down and dirty, only to be frustrated by the fact that nobody wants you for that kind of work at your age. You hear it a lot -- I enjoyed being a project leader or program manager, it was rewarding and I'm glad I did it, but now I want to get back to the stuff that brought me into the field in the first place. Except once you've taken any kind of senior position nobody wants you for grunt work anymore, even if you've been armpit-deep in engineering on a day-to-day basis.
Is that ageism?
I dunno. But it does suck.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
I am over 50, I live and work in Silicon Valley, and I have never personally experienced ageism. By the time someone is my age, they should have plenty of experience, be able to apply old tricks to new technologies, and have deep and wide professional network. If I was looking for a new job (I am not), I could easily tap old friends and coworkers, and have several offers within a day or two. If an old person is trying to find a job using Craigslist, Dice, etc. then that means they have no network, or don't think their old coworkers would recommend them, because they are unproductive. That is not "ageism", it is "unproductivism".
serious money to be made cleaning up after the kids.
YES!!! There's also serious money to be made in the support of 40 year old technology running on critical systems whose documentation was lost years ago.`
If business wants experience, they have to pay the price (in $$$). If they don't want the experience, they'll end up paying for that choice too. We are not replaceable cogs, much as they want to believe otherwise.
No skin off my nose any more - I've already had my fill of bs from this toxic industry.
"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
They are not the only friends I have. But yes in fact I DO want to the people I work with to be friends at some level. The people in the group I work with currently I spend almost zero time with outside of work yet I consider them friends on some level, and enjoy spending time with them - a good thing too as the people you work with you'll spend far more time with than most "real" friends.
Business today does hiring based on money.
HA HA HA HA HA HO HE HAHA HO....
That was hilarious. You should go on stage with that act. The things business does daily are so remote from real monetary concerns as to be laughable. It certainly does not come into play when hiring technical people as most businesses are simply DESPERATE (and I do not use that word lightly) to find someone responsible who knows what they are even doing.
There are probably a few businesses that hire because "cheap labor" but as I said why would you even want to work there? Such businesses are no fun, and more importantly they will not be around that long anyway so you'd just have to find new work. That's why the few places that are so short sighted simply do not matter in terms of *my* ability to find work, which is what the main article is about (older experienced workers ability to find work).
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Recruiters like it when you shave you beard for interviews in the midwest. They do, they really like it. They prefer if you do it. They can't tell you that you have to do it anymore, but they still very strongly prefer it. I've always felt kind of awkward without a beard. So, one day, about five years ago, and just as my beard started going gray, I stopped doing it. It's idiotic to change your appearance in this way, especially when it's a dishonest representation of what you actually look like most of the time.
I've always had a good resume, I get compliments on it all the time from clients and recruiters alike. The only people that dislike the way I write a resume are college guidance counselors, and people poisoned by their terrible advice, but they're few and far between. So all things considered, that factor in this equation has not changed. But since I've been growing the beard both longer and grayer, the number of successful interviews I've had has gone up. And the way I've been treated on the job has changed, dramatically. Bear in mind that the type of roles I go for hasn't changed since I was 25. I like coding. I intend to continue doing it.
People are more respectful. They ask me for my insights more often. I'm treated like an eccentric code sage, and that's absolutely fine with me. Even when I fly out to work in places like California or Seattle, this does not seem to change. I can only think of one instance where this decision has worked against me. One interview for a very hostile publishing company a few years ago, where they made it a point to ask me how often I keep up with new things, where they refused to believe that I read more books every year than their CEO. That said, I think that one would probably have went poorly no matter what I looked like.
I don't mind being older than my coworkers or project managers.
I don't mind taking orders from people younger than me. This isn't my trip in life.
I'm just there to make better stuff, solve more interesting problems, and keep myself challenged intellectually.
My biggest problem is boredom, so I've learned to be pickier in selecting my assignments.
Getting older, and reaching middle age isn't a bad thing.
You just have to know how to sell it.
This signature has Super Cow Powers
That's basically my feeling on it also, and I'm mid-40's. Too many people stagnate naturally, or end up (or stay too long) in jobs that don't provide any avenue for technical growth. I built my skills on a foundation of solid Unix/Linux admin at financial places, but have also done 4 startups, picked up solid Network skills along the way, etc.
The biggest problem I've seen is young jocks wanting to use "buzzword technology" just for the sake of using them, even if it adds complexity for no gain, and then seasoned people get viewed as "old school" for using tried-and-true tech.
A year spent in artificial intelligence is enough to make one believe in God.
I am 58, but look 15 years younger (partly genetics I guess, but I also lift weights and so am pretty buff - I can beat anyone in my company in push-ups and arm-wrestling). In my most recent job hunt (last year), I experienced what I think is age discrimination for the first time - having an interview with a start-up that went really well I thought, but then got an rejection with the explanation that I would not "fit into a start-up environment" (I had worked start-ups in the earlier tech boom though). But then I got an offer from a start-up a few weeks later, where I am currently working.
I dropped my first decade of experience off my resume years ago, as I thought it was not obviously relevant to the modern tech industry, and harmful in dating me, and so I also do not list my Bachelors graduation dates. I was fortunate to earn my Masters, and do PhD work, mid-career, so that I do list those dates on my resume, making me look more than a decade younger on paper (which is not then exposed upon meeting me since I look like my implied age).
I am concerned though, because I need to work until I am 70 to collect my full SS income, and build up a decent retirement account. The drain of a child with cancer for many years, before she died, and a wife that had serious health issues and an emotional breakdown during that same period set me well behind financially. (A lot of obviously young, and so far lucky, posters here make it sound like saving for retirement is always a piece of cake, and anyone who has trouble preparing is just stupid and lazy; but bad things can happen in life through no fault of yours that can really hurt your savings - there is no safety net to help you out). I am not sure how long my apparent youthfulness will hold out, and whether the industry will become even more intolerant of age. I just need 12 more years though.
Second class citizen of the New Gilded Age
By the time someone is my age, they should have plenty of experience, be able to apply old tricks to new technologies, and have deep and wide professional network
Unless you have stayed too long in the same vertical amongst the same small set of players. My problem now is most of the network of people I have worked with, those who I have impressed over the years, have retired or clocked out.
It doesn't help that my skills are dependant on hands-on interaction with the data, code etc, and when it comes to a tag-team of interviewers quizzing me with stupid questions I go semi-autistic like a possum in headlights. Hopefully others who have stayed in IT into their 50's are a little better at giving good impressions and selling themselves. I never had to do the hard-sell before I got old.
If I had a DeLorean... I would probably only drive it from time to time.
I am guilty of ageism: I prefer to work with older people.
:) Me too...
I'm 40, I recently interviewed for a video/sound editor position and the under 25 crowd is indeed willing to work for cheap, but for heaven's sake, can one of them please show up with a tie on?
The 40 year olds who show up for an interview? Suits and ties.
No, the position will never require you wear a suit or tie, you can come to work in t-shirts and jeans if you want, but the suit says "I'm here because I want the job and I'm serious about that".
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15 years ago I was interviewing for my first flying job, it was a $16/hr no-benefits part time position. I showed up in a suit and tie. One of the pilots there (wearing jeans and a t-shirt) joked, "what's with the monkey suit", to which I replied, "I want the job, this says that from the minute I walk in the door".
I got the job, never wore a suit there of course, but even during the interview I was asked about that, same answer. Did it make a difference? I have no idea, but it didn't hurt.
Posting AC. My current job doesn't care, because they just need people who know what they are doing.
However, I've had previous interviews where I was asked if I would grow a full beard and wear flannel so I can "fit in the team" (once I realized I can't stand the place, I mentioned that the reason I don't bother growing a full mane is that gas masks don't seal over facial hair, which befuddled them greatly), or have been overtly called a "fossil" because I didn't put my whole life on social media, or been told, "find a mainframe shop, pops" when I mentioned the security ramifications of "just put it in Docker", or "move it to OpenStack."
Ageism is out there. I would say post 40, you have to be -exceptional- to be able to find any work. A 20-something with far fewer skills will always get the position before you every time, especially if the person is an H-1B, because of the payroll tax advantage.
the "Bay Area" is filled with a lot more drama than you will find in any workplace outside.
I live outside the Bay Area and experienced the exact same thing when I hit my mid-40s. Anyone who denies ageism is a factor in tech is either naive or part of the problem.
Ending the H1-B program completely might not solve the problem but it would be a good first step. Sure, companies would still outsource but that's a real pain the ass compared to having a galley slave right on site. After companies pay a couple times for untangling Bangalore Spaghetti Code that comes in late and doesn't run right they get a lot more practical.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
I'm 40 which I can't decide if it's old or not in this industry. I generally feel quite young among my peers.
To be honest, I agree with you with the exception of with my Asbergers "friends". I have worked with some of the most exceptional minds in computational mathematics and physics over the years and to be fair, these guys are genuinely unmarketable. They are the best people at what they do and they work extremely hard and for the most part diligently and make miracles happen in code. Companies around the world are desperate for their skills and talents. But they need to work the job they got when they graduated the university until they retire or they're screwed.
I know of at least three of these guys living on unemployment (maybe for the rest of their lives) because they are utterly unable to communicate with anyone with an IQ under 170 (I use the term IQ just to have some numerical reference... I just mean really really good at solving puzzles). It's not because they check IQ cards or they black list people because their IQs are too low. It's because they actually are medically incapable of being interested in holding an interest in communicating with anyone who doesn't provide "valuable input" to solving their puzzles. They have absolute focus on problem solving and have absolutely no interest in the outside world. These are real life Sheldons x10. I had a conversation with one the other night who displayed a very unusual level of emotion and excitement since his roommate (a girl with severe communication issues... crippled by fear of other people) had taught him to use a vacuum cleaner properly. He'll probably vacuum that apartment 16 times a day for three weeks.
I honestly never have any problems finding work in this business and my age has had absolutely no impact other than positive. I do recall having major problems with age when I was in my teens and early 20's. At 40, people simply assume that I know what I'm doing.
Networking is key (I'm in my late 40s). I changed jobs last year and went to work for someone that I've known for 20+ years now, working along side someone else that I've known for 15 years. When you can tap your network like that, you bypass HR and your resume (or LinkedIn profile) lands on the right desk to get you hired.
It's one of the things I tell young collage-age kids. They need to pay attention to their social networks in college and build them and continue to expand them into their 20s and 30s. Because those connections will be what gets you good job after good job in your 30s and 40s and 50s.
(I don't care if you do it by hand, or do it via a tool like LinkedIn. But you must cultivate those contacts unless you want to find yourself in a dead-end job in your 40s.)