Slashdot Mirror
Ask Slashdot: Should I Expect Tracking When Subscribing To News Sites?
Long-time Slashdot reader robot5x writes: I'm a fan of online privacy and, where possible, don't automatically permit cookies and tend to set Ghostery to block all trackers in my browser. This rarely causes a problem -- I have lots of subscriptions to various sites which require me to login and have only rarely encountered minor issues. Recently I had a present of a Slate Plus membership. I really like their content and was keen on supporting it financially. Activating it from the email they sent required me to first register as a user. I clicked on the icon, and nothing happened. Ghostery picked up 7 trackers which I had blocked.
Assuming that one of these was the cause, I activated each in turn and reloaded. None of them made any difference, except a single tracker from JanRain. Accepting this tracker let everything work perfectly. Reading more about JanRain though -- and particularly its interaction with Adobe analytics (which it also tries to load) -- I discovered that they wanted to "create a holistic view of your business by collecting, analyzing and reporting all customer interactions. To derive the most actionable insights, you must link your customers' actions with who they are and what their interests are. Janrain bridges the gap by connecting demographic and psychographic data, collected through traditional and social login, with Adobe's behavioral data, so you understand the whole customer journey".
I do not want them to do any of this, and don't think I should have to. Interactions with Slate's 'support' were excruciating and -- while they at least didn't ask me to restart my computer -- they actually ended up saying that allowing these trackers is tied to their login process and I have to either accept or get a refund.
Robot 5x asks: Is it unacceptable to have to accept being tracked as a paying customer for new sites? "Or am I just being a big baby?"
Assuming that one of these was the cause, I activated each in turn and reloaded. None of them made any difference, except a single tracker from JanRain. Accepting this tracker let everything work perfectly. Reading more about JanRain though -- and particularly its interaction with Adobe analytics (which it also tries to load) -- I discovered that they wanted to "create a holistic view of your business by collecting, analyzing and reporting all customer interactions. To derive the most actionable insights, you must link your customers' actions with who they are and what their interests are. Janrain bridges the gap by connecting demographic and psychographic data, collected through traditional and social login, with Adobe's behavioral data, so you understand the whole customer journey".
I do not want them to do any of this, and don't think I should have to. Interactions with Slate's 'support' were excruciating and -- while they at least didn't ask me to restart my computer -- they actually ended up saying that allowing these trackers is tied to their login process and I have to either accept or get a refund.
Robot 5x asks: Is it unacceptable to have to accept being tracked as a paying customer for new sites? "Or am I just being a big baby?"
If anything, subscribing should be a way to avoid tracking. Preferably, we shouldn't be tracked at all and subscribing should eliminate animated GIF banner ads and text ads. How can I be confident that the tracking scripts aren't also installing malware? Speaking of which, I also seem to remember that Slashdot serves up scripts from Janrain. Why is Slashdot participating in the tracking? Posting stories critical of tracking while serving up ads that track us is hypocrisy. I block those scripts and frequently change IPs to try to defeat that nonsense.
Once upon a time the idea was that you 'paid' for the content you consumed by looking at the ads.
Once upon a time the idea was also that if you paid a subscription you got the whole package, not a bunch of cherry-on-top paid DLCs for games etc., but like the above idea about ads those days are gone and will never be coming back.
Businesses will keep pushing and pushing for every last fraction of a cent they can get - and when they reach their absolute maximum possible earnings they start firing people because earnings aren't increasing. Just look at the abject terror a week ago when Apple's earnings weren't increasing like they had. Not that they were losing money, they just weren't earning MORE money than they used to.
It is insanity.
-=This sig has nothing to do with my comment. Move along now=-
It can be used for other stuff other than advertisement. Some use it to improve the user experience. Others use it in order to know when/how/where to run their own ad campaign next.
To be honest, just by visiting a website you are being "tracked". Usually what I more concerned about is who is doing the tracking. It is homebrewed, or something like piwik logged to a private server? Then I am fine. Are they using Google analytics or some data hungy vendor? Then I worry!
They will sell the fact that you are a paying subscriber to all the other publications that are in their family. You will be traded around like a two dollar whore. By paying for one publication they will try to squeeze every damn cent out of you.
The few times that I have subscribed to a magazine, I can't even begin to count how much crap they sent me to upgrade, give their publication as a gift, to buy addons, to buy similar magazines, and then as my subscriptions ran out, the near non-stop torrent to hold onto me as a customer were making up a sizeable chunk of my weekly paper mail.
Even consumer reports which is supposed to be above the commercial fray was only a hair from sending missionaries to my door to convert me back to their flock of subscribers. One science publication kept sending me letters of ever growing desperation saying that these letters were killing them and that it would be better if I renewed my subscription earlier than cost them so much sending these out.
For you tracking will be so last year, it will be stalking, hunting, and all around sharks who smell blood behaviour.
If you don't like their business practices, then don't do business with them. If they have something you want, they don't have to give it to you under your terms. But if enough people refuse to accept their terms, they'll have to change their model.
That's how free enterprise works.
Or it could work by listening to customers as well.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
They say it costs twice the amount to win a customer back than to keep and existing one . HOWEVER, the marketing people know their bonuses come from winning a customer back and they get nothing for keeping one. Me, I have ghostery turn up to the max, I also have a large hosts list, I have zero interest in being tracked/spammed/harassed . If I can't get to their site...I go else where....easy choice to make.
Lots and lots of shitposting.
The content of Slate is some of my favorite on the internet, but every time I try to interact with anything technical it pisses the fuck out of me. Their comments system is horrible, and won't even load half the time. The commenters themselves seem to be pretty good, but participating in the conversation is a nightmare.
So I am not surprised at all the back-end designed by whomever the English Majors hired requires some weird-ass obscure tracking software that's more then a wee skoch shady.
Yes.
The easiest answer to the question of whether or not you find it acceptable is, whether or not your find it acceptable. Don't like it stop being their customer. Still somewhat interested, inform them of the reason you stopped being their customer and check back every now and again to see if they change, until either you get bored coming back to check and stop or they change. There are just, so, so many choices out there and it will only grow, especially with accurate auto-translators on the horizon, content available from all over the world.
For me either the web site is OK and they get cookies and scripts or they are not and 'no cookies for you'. This extends to publishing houses (kill off everyone of their websites cookies and scripts) to advertising agencies (kill off their cookies and scripts no matter where they are).
What ever you preference is as a customer should always drive your choices on the internet ie Don't like that they promote wasteful consumption of fossil fuels, drop them and go else where, there are thousands upon thousands of other places to go. Don't like the politics of the owner, drop them, there is an whole internet of alternates. Don't like the products they promote, simply go elsewhere. You can also choose whether or not to let them know why. Don't forget https://www.google.com.au/?cli... , it really is just so easy.
Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
Is the Pope Catholic?
OF FUCKING COURSE you're going to be tracked. Fuck you, pleb, that's why.
They say it costs twice the amount to win a customer back than to keep and existing one . HOWEVER, the marketing people know their bonuses come from winning a customer back and they get nothing for keeping one.
It's a silly way to do things It's lie unsucscribing from something like Comcast every so often, then re-upping when they have a deal. My better half is freaking out at their lates 30 dollar price increase, but they have the internetz speed I need - I do multiple websites and a lot of remote access work. I pretty much have to go to fiber if we dump them.
Me, I have ghostery turn up to the max, I also have a large hosts list, I have zero interest in being tracked/spammed/harassed . If I can't get to their site...I go else where....easy choice to make.
And how! I have some times had to disable blocking, and I have to say, the internet is just not worth that shitstorm of suck.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
The short answer to the original question is "Yes, they can and will track you."
However, you can making tracking very difficult. The following is what I do. This for those who use Firefox or SeaMonkey as their browser on a Windows system. NOTE WELL the exception.
1. Mark the file cookies.sqlite as read-only. For "smooth" Web browsing, I do want some cookies. To set or update them, I terminate my browser, mark cookies read-write, launch my browser to visit ONLY the Web site for which I want cookies, terminate my browser to eliminate session-only cookies, and restore the read-only setting for cookies.sqlite. Web site might act as if they were setting cookies, but those cookies are lost when I terminate my browser.
2. Disable geolocation. For all of my profiles, I insert the following into file user.js:
user_pref("geo.enabled", false);
The semi-colon (;) at the end of the line is mandatory. You can insert an adjacent comment line indicating why you did this; just begin the comment with two virgules (//).
3. Install the Secret Agent extension from https://www.dephormation.org.u.... Each time I request a Web page, my outgoing Internet headers are different. Some sites that try to use those headers to determine my location have me bouncing all over the world. Every time I go to Panopticlick at https://panopticlick.eff.org/, I get a different result. Two NOTES: (1) Because some Web sites require consistent user agents as you navigate through them, I disabled the extension's capability to vary my user agent string. (2) Because Firefox now requires extensions to be signed by Mozilla and the developer of Secret Agent refuses to submit his extension for signature, this cannot be installed in Firefox. Unsigned extensions can still be installed in SeaMonkey.
Use particular browsers for particular sites. A feature I'd love for a browser to have would be something in-between the "everything goes" mode and Incognito mode. Something that siloed each site, letting it store data from itself but not see what anything else was doing, would be absolutely fantastic. Each site you visited would be told, in effect, that the only site you ever visited was theirs.
brwski
"Because without beer, things do not seem to go as well''
I don't bother too much blocking tracker cookies as upon closing a tab all cookies that belong to it are automatically removed as well. So tracking is limited to the one site that sends these cookies (and they don't need that to follow me on their site), and whatever I may happen to use in the other tabs that time and that happens to use the same tracker service. This should allow me to log in to Slate Plus, accepting all tracker cookies, but seconds after I close the tab those trackers are gone just the same.
There are indeed those "super cookies" and so, but nothing is perfect. It does prevent me wasting lots of time trial-and-erroring which of the dozen I have to allow to get logged in or whitelisting anything but sites I really want a persistent login or so (not many thanks to LastPass taking care of logging in again and again painlessly).
Toy model much?
Last time I tried to purchase a cell phone cash, they wouldn't sell one to me. Cross off the corporate offenders one by one, pretty soon you become an embargoed island. Man, we have a lot of ground to cover. How about we start here?
Why Does Cuba Have so Many Classic Cars?
Next year, we can progress to John Nash.
The current model of push-based advertising is insane. There is NO limit to how much of your time they would be willing to consume. Even if they are consuming 100% of your attention and free time, they would only respond by shifting the focus to higher margin goods and services. (NEVER again Amazon!)
The financial model I want to support would be pull driven. I would specify what good and services I want to buy and how much time I want to spend considering the options, and then the legitimate companies would bid for my time to consider what they have. The intermediary handling the auction could have additional personal information, and they could use that information to boost the value of the auctions based on my qualifications as a potential customer, but the intermediary would have a strong interest in protecting my privacy and keeping my information secure because that is protecting their OWN position in future auctions. If they leak my personal information, they are cutting themselves out of the deal. (I would also want a setting to get at least 3 companies' offers.)
The interesting question is how to divide the proceeds of the auctions, and this is where the competition between intermediaries should take place. One intermediary might pay a higher percentage directly back to the users, but I would be more likely to consider an auctioneer who offered a balanced package of services, including spammer killing and a fraction of the proceeds that is used to pay for REAL journalism instead of the advertiser-driven click-bait crap we see these days.
By the way, a similar approach could be applied even on slashdot. Details (if speculative) available upon (polite) request.
Freedom = (Meaningful - Coerced) Choice != (Speech | Beer^2), and sad sock puppets' bad mods avail them naught.
Should be a place for related books and references on such a rich topic. Currently reading "Future Crimes", which is highly relevant to this topic. The discussion also reminded me of "The Filter Bubble" and I just remembered "The Future of the Internet" and "Who Owns the Future?" as related books.
Freedom = (Meaningful - Coerced) Choice != (Speech | Beer^2), and sad sock puppets' bad mods avail them naught.
Yep agree. Lots of comments here go along the lines of "this is a free market, just take your business elsewhere". Fine - I can do that (and in this case I certainly will). But what proportion of the general internet using population do you think are even aware they are being tracked? This faith in the rational decision-making power of consumers relies on them having information about the relative pros and cons of accessing a particular service. I guess what I'm suggesting is that this 'expectation' to be tracked has just sneaked up on us, and there is no transparency from individual web sites, or these tracking services, about what is really happening with people's data. I don't believe any of us have made a rational decision that being tracked is 'OK' - it's just the way things are now, so we all just have to kind of accept it. It's pretty sad.
Hej! Nasi tu byli!
Those profiles can't be used for political purposes? They can't be used for "police" purposes? In short, the "powers that be" should be able to track you under any circumstances? And, you don't believe that there are any potential injustices to worry about?
Let us try to get a grip on reality here. Knowledge is power. Information is a tool with which to wield power. You are giving away power over yourself. And, you gain NOTHING in return.
Which is kinda funny in a way. Females have been trying to gain power over their lives for many decades now. Here, we have a female saying BFD when it is pointed out that corporations and government alike are seeking ever more power over you.
Filed in the "Things that make you go "HMMMMM"" folder.
"Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
The 'net with the way some folks do ads these days is absurd. Absolutely absurd.
However, I recommend uMatrix and uBlock Origin. You can actually do the same things with both of them, more or less. But, each is slightly better at different tasks and neither ads much to your resource usage - it probably lowers it by not loading the ads.
uMatrix is like an old-school software firewall, except it's just for your browser. uBlock is, well, you know what that is. There's the right click and block elements. I'm not sure what "language" it is that you use in there - to block stuff. But, once you learn it (or a little bit of it) you can really block some stuff pretty handily and easily - as well as completely.
uMatrix is whitelist based - pretty much everything is blocked by default. You can even set it to block FIRST party stuff by default - if you really want to. Then, as you browse, you whitelist only what you need. You save your settings. These settings can be exported and used on different computers or, if you want, it now supports the sync function in your browser so that you can sync the content automatically from one device to the next. You just use the same device name - it never deletes, it just merges so collisions don't result in you needing to replicate your work.
There is a learning curve with uMatrix but it's neither long nor difficult. If I am able to do it then I'm sure you can do it. I've actually taken my saved settings and uploaded them in the past to get people started - so that they can see what they look like. If you're interested then I can dump 'em online again sometime. I've been using it for quite a while and I tend to be a 'least-privilege' kind of guy. I basically only let run the absolute minimal required to get the functionality I need. No heavy scripts, no cookies, no XSS, no frames, no anything - unless it's needed or the layout is toast without it.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
It's not a choice to do business with them when I click on a new site in google and 50 trackers start up and steal my info before the site's content even loads.
And if you think users should be required to search for this info about every new aite before clicking a new link to decide if it's worth it to visit, you're absolutely fucking insane.
It's one thing if the site shows a blank page and says "we use xyz trackers for xyz purposes. If you agree to this we will show you content. If not, you cannot enter our website." As much as I hate trackers, I'd have a bit of respect for sites that do that. The reality though, that they load the trackers/malware without your knowledge before you can even access the content, and without giving the user a say in it, means your free market scenario can't work out. In a true free market where users have the ability to make decisions based on what the website does and doesn't track, tracking should be illegal u less it's opt-in.
Simple test to tell of your being tracked
Are you using the internet? Then yes retard you are being tracked
I always wonder why sites need so many trackers. I've seen sights that served up more than a dozen tracker scripts. I wouldn't doubt if the actual content was dwarfed by the tracker scripts. Several times sites have failed to load because a tracker script was slow to download. Thank goodness for Ghostery. Running Ghostery is a real eye opener, to say nothing of a requirement for safe web browsing in my opinion.
And become a king. Make a fucking executive decision.
Only you can decide to have a spine.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
It doesn't matter if it is free or not. They will always be tracking you!
Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
I had an unpaid account to comment there, via LiveFyre.
All other unnecessary 3rd party domains were blocked.
One day the "Sign In" and "Sign Up" links presented blank panels.
I poked around a bit, and quickly gave up.
I rarely commented, enjoyed "moderating" others' comments, but just wasn't worth it.
This article had me go back and allow JanRain - still no work.
Unlike the submitter, I find Slate's content fairly unimpressive, but the commentors - they're great. There are a lot of very clever, very humorous people there in the comment threads. When reading, ensure always sorted by "Hot Topics".
I'll admit a guilty pleasure is reading the comments in the "Dear Prudence" column. Brilliantly witty, sarcastic, hilarious.
Slate.com also has some decent podcasts and are really trying to move into the forefront of that field.
They have some good ones, but I'm down to listening to only one regularly now: The Gist with Mike Pesca.
Took me a while to get used to him, but he has some really clever closing segments (The Spiel?). He's also a daily ½ hour show, so there's always something new to listen to.
Anyway, tldr, I just lurk now and would be tempted to cash in the gift due to the onerous conditions of having to deal with 3rd parties that I have no relationship with.
it's completely unacceptable. tell the site to GFTS and demand a refund.
Short answer: Yes, of course you should expect tracking. I mean, who the fuck do you think you are? Now be quiet and let them monetize your clickstream, bitch.
"create a holistic view of your business by collecting, analyzing and reporting all customer interactions. To derive the most actionable insights, you must link your customers' actions with who they are and what their interests are. Janrain bridges the gap by connecting demographic and psychographic data, collected through traditional and social login, with Adobe's behavioral data, so you understand the whole customer journey."
I don't know what that means, and honestly I'm not sure that it really means anything. It seems that they're claiming that their data-driven insights will allow you to convince people to buy more shit, but somehow, I doubt it really works.
Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
But *do* remember that they aren't just going to collect the information, they're going to sell it to others who will correlate it with information collected on other sites. Anonymized data generally isn't. Usually you can determine a particular person from only a very few pieces of nominally anonymous data.
OTOH, you also have to ask yourself "How much is this invasion of privacy going to add to what has already been collected about me?" You can't really consider even officially secret information, like say health records, to be safe. It's usually allowed that some "sufficiently anonymized" extract of the data can be shared, and that "sufficiently anonymized" extract is usually enough to tie them to you personally. How much groups bother to do this isn't clear. So far all I've heard is of populations being targeted, not individual people, and for that even actual anonymous data would probably suffice. (OTOH, another poster claimed that custom ads were targeted at individuals. If you believe him, then the anonymity is frequently violated...and it seems readily doable.)
Please note, though, that much of this information about you you can't control, because it's in the hands of other people, and the groups that they are part of care even less for your privacy than the laws require them to.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
And if you think users should be required to search for this info about every new aite before clicking a new link to decide if it's worth it to visit, you're absolutely fucking insane.
If you don't already know you trust the destination, don't click the link. That's my advice.
Also, if you're walking down the sidewalk and you see a door ajar, and don't know what is inside, don't go in. And if somebody is standing on the sidewalk asking you to come in, and you weren't already going to that place? Don't go in.
If you don't know where you're going, don't go yet. If you're going out for a walk, just keep walking until you're done, don't stop to randomly consume something because somebody said, "hey, stuff to consume, right here, you don't know what's in it but who cares!" If you didn't know you needed, you probably didn't need it.
To you, this might sound "absolutely fucking insane." To me it actually sounds like the default best practices that have been the same for thousands of years... or maybe millions.
If I'm walking in the woods and I see a juicy ripe berry, if I know what it is I might eat it. If I don't know what it is, I'm not going to eat it. If I'm going to run out and get a guidebook and find out what it is, I'm a nerd. Simple, easy stuff. They control you by tricking you into thinking it is something new.
if anyone is tracking you on the toilet
I maintain multiple personalities by using different browsers and starting browsers as different local users. Each personality has its own email account with an empty address book that receives unread spam. For my general web surfing and news reading I use this account. I couldn't care less how tracked it is, it has nothing to do with my work life or my personal life. In addition, I do not have any browser extensions installed for most of these personalities.
If you don't like it, don't take up the subscription, and return the "gift" to the friend with a note to tthe effect of : "Thanks, it was a nice idea ; I was sufficiently interested to try to take it up. but after some of the things that site tried to do [give details], I've decided that I'd rather boil my own sex organs than read it on a regular basis. You should be able to get your money back, or exchange it for a different subscription."
Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"