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Microsoft Kills Its Game-Building Platform Spark (arstechnica.com)

An anonymous reader writes:"Starting 5/13/16, 'Project Spark' will no longer be available for download on the Xbox Marketplace or Windows Store," Microsoft wrote in a blog post, adding that it will go offline for good on August 12th. They thanked fans who have "gone above and beyond supporting 'Project Spark' by uploading hundreds of thousands of creations and dreaming up millions of objects, behaviors, and experiences..."

Ars Technica remembered Spark as the free multi-device, build-your-own game platform that you never knew existed. "Marketing teams never effectively sold the possibilities and power of Spark's make-your-own-game system," reports Ars Technica. "While short teaser videos hinted at the game enabling everything from kart racers to airborne battles, major demonstrations tended to revolve more around generic 3D platformers.

49 of 84 comments (clear)

  1. Reminds me of XNA... by c9brown · · Score: 1

    Note to self, don't start a long-term indie game project on whatever Microsoft's next game dev platform is.

    1. Re:Reminds me of XNA... by Sarten-X · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Don't start a project on anything Microsoft's touting as "next-gen" anything.

      Back in the bad old days, DDE was the best way to do IPC in Windows. Then it was OLE, and COM, with ActiveX thrown in the mix too. For storing data, we had application-specific files, then system-level INI files, then the registry, and now we have a weird mess under the "AppData" tree.

      Of course, DirectX was supposed to be everything game devs needed, until it was neutered to handle just video and audio. XNA was then supposed to handle all of the game-centric functionality under the .NET framework, until it died a quiet death.

      Microsoft's the most indecisive software company I've ever seen, so I'd strongly recommend against taking any of their decisions at face value. Only adopt a Microsoft technology after others have vetted it and raised sufficient complaints about the broken parts.

      --
      You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
    2. Re:Reminds me of XNA... by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 2

      Yep, I agree. Your best bet is to simply use whatever the professionals are using, since you generally know that will be supported for a reasonable length of time. For game developers, that means plain old C++ and DirectX targeted at the desktop (or native console APIs, if you're a console developer). It's easy enough to port to other platforms like Universal Windows Apps as required, but you definitely don't want all your eggs in just one new MS basket. And these days, it makes sense to make sure you're porting to at least Mac, if not Linux as well.

      --
      Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
    3. Re:Reminds me of XNA... by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Shiiiiiit!

      Thanks buddy, almost forgot about the BBQ. Ya know, the usual thing happened, "just one more bug" and all that...

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    4. Re:Reminds me of XNA... by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      Yeah MSFT has been shitting the bed with regularity as of late, .NET, Silverlight,Playsforsure, if you use a "next gen" MSFT product in your business you are locking yourself into a dead end path that won't be supported for shit and will die sooner rather than later. Google has been doing the same with many of their products but at least with Google nobody was actually trying to build products using the Google services they shitcanned.

      BTW am I the only one starting to smell the stench of death wafting from MSFT? From practically begging users to take their new OS for free (and failing spectacularly from the latest figures I saw) to killing the XB1 before it even came out by crippling it to shoehorn the Kinect and bragging about its DRM and its ability to do TV...the whole company just feels like a rudderless ship, just desperately throwing shit at the wall and hoping something sticks. I mean you got the XB1 being such a bomb they will probably never make a dime on the thing (as they have to keep cutting prices to keep from getting curbstomped by the PS4), you got Win 10 which looks like their third bomb in a row (and the begging and dirty tricks trying to push it just makes them look pathetic) and you have Google Docs and business services cutting into their bread and butter and Chromebooks eating their lunch in the classroom, their mobile division is DOA....is there ANY place where they are actually winning? Any place they are getting solid growth?

      I'm predicting before win 7 hits EOL you'll see Nadella "pursuing other interests" ala Ballmer but the question will be...will anybody even care by then? Or will it just be that "legacy OS" you run your old programs on, just like XP is now running in the backroom of many places just running some old program...if they don't find something that actually gets their users to care I don't see good things in MSFT's future.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    5. Re:Reminds me of XNA... by Xest · · Score: 1

      That's only really half the story though, on the flip side there are things like MFC which are still supported to this very day - that's 24 years, which for a library is a pretty good lifespan.

      It really seems to depend on the department, I agree, their graphics/games APIs have been a mess over the years - you haven't even stated the half of it with DirectX / XNA as you've missed out things like GDI, GDI+, WPF (for rendering), Managed DirectX. I'm not sure deprecating things like DirectInput really mattered though, they were only ever there to make up for the fact that Windows provided otherwise awful APIs for handling input for applications like games, and that's just not true anymore, therefore it really became irrelevant and pointless. Networking was similar, except it was quickly realised that different games had such different networking requirements that it was really pointless trying to create a do everything API and just let devs use Windows Sockets which is what they were doing because DirectPlay was too specific anyway.

      I completely agree that Microsoft need to get a better grip on their roadmaps for developers - I think it's a travesty that WPF, their main Windows desktop framework doesn't contain the very controls that they expect developers to use in Windows nowadays (i.e. an uptodate ribbon control), whilst WinRT it's replacement seems to be lacking uptake because it's largely crippled by everything that was wrong with Windows 8 (namely trying to fudge a tablet way of doing things onto the desktop).

      I'll admit I'm also a bit concerned about where they're going with their web technologies, ASP.NET WebForms was awful but stable for a good decade, ASP.NET MVC is excellent, but they seem to be building things in a way that make a right hash up of things - in about two ASP.NET MVC versions we went through about 4 recommended frameworks/iterations of frameworks for handling authentication and authorisation, from Membership Providers, to the WebMatrix libraries, to Identity 1, to Identity 2, and in the process we seem to actually have lost a lot of things that even the basic membership providers did well (Easy Web.Config configuration based switching between Forms and AD authentication for example). Rather than changing the recommended way to do authentication/authorisation 4 times in two fucking versions it would've seemed to make sense to simply instead wait until you've actually got Identity functionally complete and then release it with the next version of ASP.NET MVC. Given how badly Identity integrates with existing MVC functionality this would've made a lot of sense.

      There's also the whole .NET core thing and porting ASP.NET apps onto that with vNext, it's a great idea but again it's yet another API and platform you now have to adapt your code for. They seem to be letting some of their teams get a bit carried away with pet projects whilst forgetting that the reason they're a succesful company is that they've actually largely done a good job of providing developers good tools and relatively decent, stable APIs over the years. They're trying to bring on the script kiddies whilst neglecting the very enterprise developers that have kept them afloat all these years. My banking customer doesn't want fucking Twitter and Facebook integration, they want to be able to login and easily and authorize with domain accounts.

      I can't be too critical of things like COM and OLE becoming less popular, they survived for decades and technology moves too quick to expect these sorts of things to last for 30 - 50 years or whatever you're expecting, and even now it's still supported, just not the best way of doing things.

      So overall I think it's important to be a bit more reasonable here, I don't think you can criticise Microsoft for still supporting, but no longer recommending a 25 year old API and it's associated technologies whilst replacing them with something better and more modern for example. However I do agree it's reasonable to criticise them where they have made a c

    6. Re:Reminds me of XNA... by LostMyBeaver · · Score: 2

      Hmm... last I checked... .NET is their core platform these days and works pretty nicely. Silverlight is more or less replaced by HTML 5 now, so while Microsoft still supports it, it's kinda on the way out... after all... with no plugin support in browsers, what's the alternative. Plays for sure was kind of a marketing thing with some DRM on top.

      So, I'm a little lost.

      As for lock-in, these days, C# and .NET are practically the only cross platform development toolkit with support. C and C++ for application development are basically dead. It's not that as languages they're bad, they're just not that good anymore. Almost every half decent C project out there is written by more or less by using an object model which almost precisely recreates C++ in structures. C++ was the best language for application development (especially cross platform) for like 20-30 years but that was more of "by default" since there weren't any other well supported languages on multiple platforms. Java just never really happened. The reason for this is that Sun kinda screwed everything up with AWT and 5 generations of shit before SWT happened which no one really caught onto. I addition, there's no real support for mobile devices.

      So, that leaves us with C#, Objective-C (and maybe soon Swift).

      Objective-C was an amazing language due the the really awesome way it was possible to compile all function calls into MPI since the function declarations clearly spelled out everything needed to serialize data and there was this sort of implied async functional call interface to begin with. Add to that the NextSTEP libraries almost religious enforcement of MVC, lovely. The problem was programming Objective-C was that writing Objective-C code felt like flossing your teeth through your ass. It was just an infuriatingly ugly programming language. It was designed for the computer, not the programmer.

      Then came Swift which says "Let's get all the goodies of Objective-C and make it usable" and then Apple released what might be one of the worst compilers I've ever encountered in my life to support it in the open source. The parser is so incredibly shitty that when warnings and errors are generated due to syntax, an error on line 1026 will report as being on line 1 since the compiler just failed and since it seems to be tokenizing the entire file before parsing it (feels that way, probably isn't) it has no idea which context it's in at the time and just pukes. The entire front end of Swift needs a rewrite by proper compiler engineers. And oh... Swift still grabs hold of "let the programmer manage the memory and processes" because they figured they couldn't get the purists to adopt it.

      So, that leaves us with C# which just works... it's probably the prettiest language at the moment. Microsoft has a bit of feature sprawl, but they manage it nicely. Developer documentation is pretty good and covers all versions... unlike Java which no matter how bad the screw up is will never remove anything (no matter how bad it fucks up the whole Java architecture), .NET evolves and both adds and removes features. At this time C# is fully supported on all desktop operating systems with tools. In addition, it's supported on all phone platforms and I've even gotten it working on a TI DSP running SYSBIOS. So I'm pretty damn sure C# is not only here to stay but unless you're counting clock cycles, it's probably the most versatile compilable language.

      So.. in the end, I can't imagine what you're ranting about. I've never had a problem with support for Microsoft technologies (maybe FoxPro, but it was time for that to go).

    7. Re:Reminds me of XNA... by bondsbw · · Score: 1

      whilst WinRT it's replacement seems to be lacking uptake because it's largely crippled by everything that was wrong with Windows 8 (namely trying to fudge a tablet way of doing things onto the desktop).

      The UWP team recently spoke to your point at Build, calling it a mistake to lock down the APIs and committing to move as many Win32-equivalent APIs into UWP as is reasonable (i.e. they are cleaning things up and applying modern application model principles as they copy the APIs).

      --
      All my liberal friends think I'm a conservative, all my conservative friends think I'm a liberal.
    8. Re:Reminds me of XNA... by Xest · · Score: 1

      But does it really matter at this point? I'm not seeing much will for people to put on from things like WPF, wouldn't it make sense to just ditch the failure that is WinRT and just go back to supporting WPF?

      I'm just not seeing any evidence of adoption of WinRT, and I'm not really convinced there is any will to adopt it.

      It always seemed to be a solution seeking a problem.

    9. Re:Reminds me of XNA... by bondsbw · · Score: 1

      They did ditch WinRT. They replaced it with UWP, which is a broader platform with more capability and a roadmap that diverges from the original intent of WinRT.

      As for adoption, it's happening at an accelerating pace with several high-profile apps now released or in beta as UWP. Project Centennial is going to make mixed-mode apps possible in order to take advantage of each platform's strengths, but that hasn't been released yet. Between new APIs, more interest in the platform (companies are just now beginning to really consider Windows 10), and Centennial, I think it's unfair to make a judgment about the future of UWP based on past performance of the old WinRT project.

      --
      All my liberal friends think I'm a conservative, all my conservative friends think I'm a liberal.
    10. Re:Reminds me of XNA... by Xest · · Score: 1

      Sure that's a fair point, I'm basing my view on the jobs market and what local companies are doing. There's just no sign of uptake yet whatsoever but you're absolutely right, it is early days still. Having a few high profile projects to name drop is one thing, but it's only really when the real market picks it up that it matters because then it starts being relevant to the broader set of Windows developers rather than just a negligible minority who are working on those handful of name drop projects

      But developers like myself really lost interest largely because WinRT was such a failure, so I think it's hard to detach the two things. UWP is going to have to do a hell of a lot to make up ground lost by WinRT, if nothing else because one of the reasons WinRT did fail is simply that no one had any interest in learning yet another framework when the existing one worked just fine, bar an arbitrary and nonsensical dropping of support by Microsoft but not really (WPF hasn't really been touched in any meaningful way in years, but Microsoft denies it's officially dropped it).

    11. Re:Reminds me of XNA... by mattack2 · · Score: 1

      Are you writing bugs about the swift compiler/errors/etc. at bugreport.apple.com?

  2. Never heard of it... by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 4, Funny

    I guess Spark didn't catch on fire.

    1. Re:Never heard of it... by antdude · · Score: 1

      Ditto, but I have heard of other Spark from Cisco, Apache, etc.

      --
      Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
  3. Re:"that you never knew existed" by Megane · · Score: 1

    They're just trying to keep up with Google canceling their "beta" projects all the time.

    --
    #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
  4. Would of been a great story 3 days ago by Crashmarik · · Score: 1

    Now it's lost some of that punch.

  5. Microsoft not a trustworthy platform to build on by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 3, Insightful

    A lot of VB6 programmers got shafted. And now spark.

    The ability of vendors to "end of life" development languages is a huge risk.

    --
    She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
  6. Pulled the "Spark Plug" by surfdaddy · · Score: 1

    The Spark has gone out.

  7. Re:"that you never knew existed" by Hognoxious · · Score: 2

    Not quite right. Google would completely bugger up the UI, cause it to display content in foreign languages and then kill it.

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  8. Inevitable by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

    It was inevitable since Microsoft bought Minecraft.

    Minecraft is a pretty horrible basis for further expansion, but maybe they'll fold some of these ideas into a future non-Java MC.

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  9. Re:GOT by U2xhc2hkb3QgU3Vja3M · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Can we add a "SPAM" moderation choice, that would send an email/something to the Slashdot admins to manually review and remove the posts in question?

    SPAM abuse could be controlled by freezing the account of anyone who falsely flags three things as SPAM.

  10. Re:ISO by U2xhc2hkb3QgU3Vja3M · · Score: 1

    Why? I simply read that as "Starting 0.02403846153846, 'Project Spark' will no longer be available..."

  11. And nothing of value was lost by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Another nothing product pulled out from under the handful of users who don't know Microsoft's history with this sort of thing. Go Linux!

  12. Re:Microsoft not a trustworthy platform to build o by PublicSchill · · Score: 1

    oh no, a programmer is expected to learn more than one language now? oh wait, that happens about every couple of years.... seems like that person has bigger problems if they feel they got shafted by VB6 EOL.

  13. Re:Microsoft not a trustworthy platform to build o by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    A hundred man-years of VB6 code is no small investment.

  14. Re:GOT by Hognoxious · · Score: 3, Insightful

    First they removed the posts from the spammers, but I didn't speak out because I was not a spammer, etc.

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  15. I'm not surprised by NotSoHeavyD3 · · Score: 1

    I mean I downloaded Conker when it was free and basically found the game unplayable it was so bad. After that I just figured anything else on it would actually be worse since that was supposed to be a killer app for that project.

    --
    Did you know 80 to 90% of the moderators on slashdot wouldn't recognize a troll even if one dragged them under a bridge.
    1. Re:I'm not surprised by Opportunist · · Score: 2

      Seems it was a killer app for the project, after all it's dead now. So why are you complaining?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  16. Re:GOT by U2xhc2hkb3QgU3Vja3M · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Some of us read comments at -1 because some moderators seem to think that an opinion different from theirs warrants a "-1, Troll" mod.

    Some -1 posts, however, really are spam. By allowing us to flag things as SPAM, it would automatically request a slashdot editor to verify the post to see if it's really SPAM or not.

  17. Re:GOT by Opportunist · · Score: 1

    I'd be against removing, but flagging it as Spam and giving the user the option to not see items flagged as Spam by the moderators, that's something I could definitely see as a "do want" item.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  18. Re:Would HAVE been a great story 3 days ago by Opportunist · · Score: 2

    Fuck, where does that "of" come from? I honestly don't get it, I'm not a native speaker, so maybe someone could clue me in, why do people write rubbish like "would of been"?

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  19. Re:Microsoft not a trustworthy platform to build o by Opportunist · · Score: 1

    Ok, but you have to admit, they didn't get shafted by removing but by inventing that language.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  20. Re:Next kill by Opportunist · · Score: 1

    And while we're at it, also that sorry excuse of a desktop OS that you cram down everyone's throat.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  21. Re:Would HAVE been a great story 3 days ago by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    English uses contractions for some words. "would have" can be shortened to "would've", which sounds like "would of". people get confused by this.

  22. Re:GOT by Cramit · · Score: 3, Funny

    You must be new here. That would require the editors to actually do something; which is against the editor code of conduct.

  23. Indie games on Xbox 360 were by tepples · · Score: 1

    Your best bet is to simply use whatever the professionals are using

    That depends on what the console maker chooses to make available to developers at any given time. During the Xbox 360 generation, developers in the Xbox Live Indie Games program were required to use a different API from what the established studios were using, namely the C# language and the XNA library. (In theory, any language generating verifiably type-safe CIL targeting the .NET Compact Framework could be used, but in practice, the only usable language was C# because the XNA environment lacked other languages' standard libraries.) The requirement of C# made it far more difficult for an indie to make a game work on both Xbox 360 and any non-Microsoft platform without rewriting it by hand, as C# at the time was tied fairly closely to Microsoft platforms.

    Your advice applies better nowadays because Mono is more feature complete (including the MonoGame reimplementation of XNA), and the multi-platform Unity 3D engine is popular, and essentially anyone with a Windows Store publisher account can make Xbox One games, even in C++, so long as they're ported to UWP.

    1. Re:Indie games on Xbox 360 were by LostMyBeaver · · Score: 1

      Agreed... besides, I never really was on board with the whole retained graphics mode APIs (abusing the term) from Microsoft themselves. Truth be told, we waited a long time for good cross platform game engines to come around and they have made awesome progress now. The underlying APIs are there for tweaking and stuff. I would say that for the most part, shader languages are more important than anything else. Write your game using a game engine and then make it rock with shaders.

      So, these days, it's far more important to use game engines with game development tools. The loss of things like XNA while sad isn't really such a big blow. I've been waiting for Microsoft to buy out Unity for a while now... they've been consuming some pretty cool companies and I think that if you put the mono team and the unity team in the same building, magic will happen

  24. Re:Microsoft not a trustworthy platform to build o by tepples · · Score: 1

    Then spend one man-year writing a transpiler that turns VB6 code into something modern.

  25. Re:GOT by tepples · · Score: 1

    Did you try scrolling to the bottom and clicking "Load More Comments"?

  26. Re:Would HAVE been a great story 3 days ago by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    In this case, though, "of" is the correct word.

  27. Thanks for this :) by LostMyBeaver · · Score: 1

    While I have never written "Would of" instead of "Would have". Certainly, I would have never written "Would've"... as it seems just sloppy.

    But my use of the "Would of" in spoken language is definitely clear and excessive. I believe I'll make a genuine effort to correct this in the future. I am an American living in another country and regularly make conscience efforts to refine my speech in order to both improve clarity as well as set a good example for those around me, especially my children's friends.

    At some point, I should attempt to find a list of "Stupid abuses of the English language that confuse foreigners". I can honestly say that there are many dialects of English that have evolved to borderline stupidity. "Queen's English" is so full of crap and nonsense now it's nearly as bad as Cajun. The language itself is doomed when the Queen herself can't be bothered to say "Football" but instead uses the term "Fudty" with a very special and specific pronunciation of U as well as the DT which sounds wrong and uncomfortably unless a coal miner with no teeth say it.

    Over the past few decades a clear decline of the "Queens English" occurred as all words had to either end with a "y" or just be cute. Instead of sausages, there's bangers, instead of "mashed potatoes", there is simple "mash". It's become a language for people to abuse primarily through "cutsiness" and laziness.

    The many other dialects of English around the world are equally bad. But as there's a specific dialect which is even named, it's far easier to focus on its shortcomings.

  28. Re:EVERY SINGLE MICROSOFT'S PROJECT IS A FAILURE.. by LostMyBeaver · · Score: 1

    Every recent Microsoft project is a failure?

    Exaggerate much?

  29. Re:Pity by LostMyBeaver · · Score: 1

    Pretty sure that's what killed it. The entire Hololens infrastructure appears to be the Project Spark GUI without the backgrounds. When I saw Hololens, it took about 1/4 of a second to realize that the reason Microsoft invested so heavily into Project Spark was to design the user interface for Hololens. They even got wide spread testing of usability by making it a game engine for people to try out and experiment with "VR style" manipulation of the environment.

    I kinda knew Spark would die sooner than later as it was obvious where those developers would be placed.

  30. Re:"Starting 5/13/16," ... by LostMyBeaver · · Score: 1

    Hmm... American website, American company, American Press Release.. etc...

    You know that if it said "5/6/16" it could be confusing which is the month and which is the day. If it says "5/13/16", you'd have to be severely mentally handicapped to be confused by this.

    I'll be kind enough to translate for you... 5/13/16 in American format translates to 2016-05-13 in a relatively sane format or 13-05-2016 in yet another fantastically stupid format or 2016-May-13 for a good human readable format.

    You get confused by that whole fancy left and right thing too?

  31. Fail U R by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 2

    > failure

    -- Hundreds of thousands of creations
    -- Millions of objects and components

    Someone is a failure here, Microsoft.

    --
    (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
  32. Re:GOT by narcc · · Score: 1

    See the tiny little gray flag in the lower-right corner of every post? You won't believe why it's there! Spammers HATE it!

  33. Re:Would HAVE been a great story 3 days ago by narcc · · Score: 1

    Now it's lost some of that punch.

    I'm not seeing the problem here. It looks correct to me. In this case, the 'of' indicates that the 'some' belongs to or originates from 'that punch'.

    We can eliminate the 'of' in most cases, but we often lose some meaning: "Now, he's lost some of his tools." -> "Now, he's lost some tools" (The owner of the tools is lost.) Though, in this case, the meaning can be preserved by writing "Now it's lost some punch."

  34. Re:GOT by slashdotwannabe · · Score: 1

    Did you try scrolling to the bottom and clicking "Load More Comments"?

    Why oh why would you give an AC who is threatening to leave a reason to stay!?!?

    IMO a more fitting response: BYE! Don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya!

    --
    This comment is my opinion and does not represent an official position of Donald Trump or others I do not work for
  35. Re:Would HAVE been a great story 3 days ago by danaris · · Score: 1

    Oh, for the love of Cthulhu; read the title of the post!

    That's where the error was being propagated, which Opportunist corrected IN ALL CAPS and somehow you still missed it!

    Dan Aris

    --
    Fun. Free. Online. RPG. BattleMaster.