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Canada's Energy Superpower Status Threatened As World Shifts Off Fossil Fuel (www.cbc.ca)

Robson Fletcher, reporting for CBC News: Canada's status as an "energy superpower" is under threat because the global dominance of fossil fuels could wane faster than previously believed, according to a draft report from a federal government think-tank obtained by CBC News. "It is increasingly plausible to foresee a future in which cheap renewable electricity becomes the world's primary power source and fossil fuels are relegated to a minority status," reads the conclusion of the 32-page document, produced by Policy Horizons Canada. "It's absolutely not pie in the sky," said Michal Moore from the University of Calgary's School of Public Policy. "These folks are being realistic -- they may not be popular, but they're being realistic." Marty Reed, CEO of Evok Innovations -- a Vancouver-based cleantech fund created through a $100-million partnership with Cenovus and Suncor -- had a similar take after reading the draft report.

30 of 327 comments (clear)

  1. Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I predict these views will be censored and modded to -1. For a community that supposedly favors the free and open exchange of ideas, Slashdot isn't very tolerant of opposing views. Voicing my opinion that AGW is a scam will result in my post being censored to -1. If AGW were real, there would be no need to censor dissenting views; the facts would prove the point far better than any moderation. The censorship is necessary because the facts aren't on the side of the AGW evangelists.

    1. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by SirSlud · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You need to know the definitions of censorship before you cry about it.

      --
      "Old man yells at systemd"
    2. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 3, Insightful

      We're going to wean ourselves off fossil fuels faster than anyone thinks? I'm not sure how that's going to happen.

      It's clearly going to take a generation or two to transition to electric vehicles, and even then, anyone who needs a long-hauler or high-endurance vehicle isn't going to switch to EVs, as they're not very practical for that. How about air travel? No good alternatives there for liquid hydrocarbon fuels - at least not that I can think of. Ships and ocean-going vessels? I don't think there are any realistic alternatives there. Manufacturing? Nope, lots of oil-based products still needed. And while bio-fuels or alternatives can take up some of this, we're a long, long way from having a realistic capacity to make up the difference. What am I missing here?

      It's obvious that fossil fuel use certainly will wane, and electricity will take up the slack where possible, because that makes sense, but in reading the paper, they seem to skip over a number of thorny issues where there simply weren't yet practical alternatives to fossil fuels.

      "At a minimum, this plausible future would suggest that governments ensure that the risks of further investments in oil and gas infrastructure be borne by private interests rather than taxpayers," the report reads.

      Ah... okay, I get it.

      --
      Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
    3. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I predict these views will be censored and modded to -1. For a community that supposedly favors the free and open exchange of ideas, Slashdot isn't very tolerant of opposing views. Voicing my opinion that AGW is a scam will result in my post being censored to -1. If AGW were real, there would be no need to censor dissenting views; the facts would prove the point far better than any moderation. The censorship is necessary because the facts aren't on the side of the AGW evangelists.

      Modding you down not because of the opposing view - but rather because your post contains NO USEFUL INFORMATION.
      - What is AGW?
      - How is it a scam?
      - Why do you hold the opposing view its a scam vs. the remainder of the public?
      - etc.

      AC posting isn't a bad thing. AC posting without value add gets downvotted like everybody else.

    4. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by dgatwood · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Voicing my opinion that AGW is a scam will result in my post being censored to -1. If AGW were real, there would be no need to censor dissenting views; the facts would prove the point far better than any moderation.

      Around here, we tend to be okay with dissenting views, as long as you provide evidence or interesting reasoning that poses new questions. When your post gets modded down, it will be because we're still waiting for you to provide either of those things....

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    5. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by JoshuaZ · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Your comment has zero evidence or claims to back it up simply a statement of what you believed and a claim that you'd be downvoted which you equated to censorship. In fact, the only moderation to your comment so far has been +3 interesting. It sounds like you have a bit of a persecution complex.

    6. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by davester666 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This is a suspect phrase: "cheap renewable electricity".

      It will only be "cheaper" by boosting the prices for all other types of electricity.

      --
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    7. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by bravecanadian · · Score: 5, Insightful

      This is a suspect phrase: "cheap renewable electricity".

      It will only be "cheaper" by boosting the prices for all other types of electricity.

      Boosting by attempting to properly price the complete costs of existing sources of energy to include all their current externalities?

    8. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 5, Informative

      ^

      Even though I staunchly support freedom of speech, part of the first amendment in the US also means you have freedom of association. That means that a private organization can squelch whatever speech they want so long as it's within their own domain. Censorship is only when somebody who is within a public domain or are outside of a domain that you control is curtailing your speech while you are in said domain.

      Because slashdot is neither a public domain, nor a domain that you control, then nothing anybody can do to you can be considered censorship.

    9. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by AmiMoJo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If it takes a generation or two to transition to electric vehicles, we are screwed. I think it will probably take one generation. By about 2025 they will be as cheap to buy as petrol cars and much, much cheaper to run. The second hand market will also have taken off.

      The real tipping point is closer than you think. It's not when 90% of vehicles are not using fossil fuels, it's when demand starts to fall significantly enough that it has a major financial impact on Canada and other countries currently doing quite well out of them.

      --
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    10. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Not necessarily. As supplies eventually wane, the price of crude may actually skyrocket, and savvy investors could make a killing. Demand is still going to be there. Are we going to have realistic alternatives for technologies that require hydrocarbon-based fuel, like airliners? The ones we're building *right now* will undoubtedly still be in service in 20-30 years.

      Besides, people have been predicting the death of the oil industry since the 50's, and it's always been "20 years out". I guarantee you that twenty years from now, someone else will also be predicting the end of oil "20 years from now". No one is foolish enough to believe oil supplies will last forever, but we've certainly managed to skirt past peak-oil predictions by almost half a century so far. If that track record holds true, I'd say the oil industry is going to be around for another half century at least, until it's eventually no longer economical to drill for natural oil, at which point everyone will turn to biofuel or synthetics, I suppose.

      --
      Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
    11. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by GameboyRMH · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's clearly going to take a generation or two to transition to electric vehicles, and even then, anyone who needs a long-hauler or high-endurance vehicle isn't going to switch to EVs, as they're not very practical for that.

      LOLWUT? EVs are already very nearly as practical as gasoline vehicles, even for long travel distances unless you'd rather set some cross-continental speed record than take a short break from driving, and faster-charging, longer-lasting, more energy-dense batteries are being developed all the time. ICEs in new cars will be a rarity within 20 years.

      How about air travel? No good alternatives there for liquid hydrocarbon fuels - at least not that I can think of.

      You're right on this one, at least for large aircraft. Without some unforeseen radical breakthrough in battery technology, large aircraft will be running on liquid hydrocarbon fuels for the foreseeable future - but that could mean biofuels.

      Ships and ocean-going vessels? I don't think there are any realistic alternatives there.

      Batteries and wind for small craft, nuclear and wind for large ones. "Wind" here may mean exotic new forms of sails.

      Manufacturing? Nope, lots of oil-based products still needed.

      Enough to sustain the giant gaping hole in demand from most of the world's land vehicles running on whatever powers the local grid?

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    12. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by ColdWetDog · · Score: 3, Funny

      Besides, people have been predicting the death of the oil industry since the 50's, and it's always been "20 years out".

      That's OK, we can replace it with fusion power.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    13. Re:Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by sycodon · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Just because a private organization can censor speech within its domain, doesn't mean that it's not censorship.

      And a private legally censoring opinions is just a morally and ethically objectionable as is a government censoring opinions.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    14. Re: Canada gets screwed by the AGW scam by BlackSabbath · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "...Fossil fuels have enabled civilization to progress more in the last 150 years or so they've been in use, than in all of man's history..."

      A similar assertion could have been made for slavery. However that's not a valid reason alone to keep it.

  2. Doesn't really matter. by johnnys · · Score: 4, Informative

    In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't really matter. The world will always need hydrocarbons, so they will always be valuable. They are needed for plastics, chemicals and all kinds of useful things besides fuel.

    --
    Sometimes the "writing on the wall" is blood spatter...
    1. Re:Doesn't really matter. by MouseR · · Score: 3, Funny

      Canada's got wood.

  3. Hydroelectric? by fluffernutter · · Score: 4, Informative

    We have more hydroelectricty than we can use... Does this not qualify as renewable energy?

    --
    Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    1. Re:Hydroelectric? by c · · Score: 4, Interesting

      We also have massive amounts of uranium, just in case the whole renewable energy thing doesn't work out so well.

      --
      Log in or piss off.
  4. Re:Canada? Superpower status? by iONiUM · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I suppose it depends on your definition of "superpower." From the wikipedia article, Canada's GDP is 10th in the world, and 15th per capita (nominal). It's a first world nation with a very high HDI. It's also a member of the G7 nations, which represent 64% of the world's wealth.

    I think one thing people overlook is that Canada has a massive treasure trove of natural resources and a very good setup for a modern economy (good income equality, good infrastructure). This combined with a high rate of immigration means the population is growing and companies will flourish (ideally). But, you never know. Resources are 20% of the GDP of Canada (http://www.nrcan.gc.ca/publications/key-facts/16013) so if that all went away at once it'd be a huge problem. I doubt it would go down like that though.

  5. Disruptive technologies and the S curve. by Layzej · · Score: 5, Insightful

    We're going to wean ourselves off fossil fuels faster than anyone thinks? I'm not sure how that's going to happen.

    According to Bloomberg Business, "Electric Cars Could Wreak Havoc on Oil Markets Within a Decade"

    Conventional energy will be obsolete by 2030 according to Swedbank: there are four key categories of technologies all of which are improving by double and triple digit basis every year. Each one of them is disruptive in it's own way.

    1. Re:Disruptive technologies and the S curve. by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Like I said, it's inevitable that the oil market shrinks, but that video didn't address the areas where electricity isn't practical. Neither did the paper. The speaker asserts that "all new vehicles will be electric by 2025. What about vehicles that regularly need to travel more than 300 miles? There are still a lot of those, and he never addresses those points. I agree with a lot of his analyses, but not his conclusions, and I think his timelines are a bit optimistic as well. The notion of your house and car being able to transfer energy on demand (both ways) was sort of an interesting idea, though, and one I hadn't heard before. But again, I think his timeline of 2030 is a decade too early at a minimum. Infrastructure changes *very* slowly, so I think you'll see a slow transition over decades rather than a quick switch, as he seems to be promising.

      About three-quarters of what gets refined from every barrel goes to transportation needs. Some of that is cars, but planes, trains, and trucks fall into those categories, and electricity won't work for all of those. Gasoline apparently accounts for 43% of the market, so let's assume those can ALL be replaced by EVs (which I think is optimistic as well) for argument's sake.

      That's a good start, but what replaces the other half of the current oil market? We're still going to need some sort of hydrocarbon-based fuel to fuel planes, power ships, and drive long haul vehicles until some miracle energy source replaces it, or until we're generating so much excess electricity that we can afford to use that excess to create synthetic or alternative fuels with it. And that doesn't even address the other uses for oil which are non-transportation. In the near future, it seems more likely that we're going to struggle building capacity for the massively increased demand for electricity as we transition from gas-powered cars to EVs.

      At the moment, I think it's wildly optimistic for anyone to assume the oil industry isn't going to still have a very long lifespan ahead of it, even if in a reduced capacity.

      --
      Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
    2. Re:Disruptive technologies and the S curve. by Layzej · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Like I said, it's inevitable that the oil market shrinks, but that video didn't address the areas where electricity isn't practical.

      That doesn't matter much to Canada. Canadian oil is expensive to extract. It is not economical even at the current price. Canada needs demand to grow substantially in order for its oil to become economical once again. If demand drops at all then it is game over for oil extraction in Canada. Analysts are expecting demand to drop substantially and in relatively short order.

    3. Re:Disruptive technologies and the S curve. by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 3, Informative

      Keep in mind Bloomberg is predicting *worldwide* markets, not just first-world markets. You're probably right that this prediction is somewhat pessimistic, but I still think you're being rather overly optimistic, especially if you think it's going to happen in *less* than ten years. Hopefully we'll both be around in another decade, so we'll see who is right.

      I think one mistake people make is that they don't account for the lag time with long-term purchases. Even if, starting tomorrow, a new prototype EV was created that was better and cheaper than gas vehicles in every way imaginable, it would probably still take at least a few years to get production ramped up. It will take another number of years for enough people to get rid of their old cars and buy new ones, and even longer for those cars to trickle down in the used market for those that can't afford a new car. Given all that, I just don't see how in ten years time a significant number of cars will be EVs. It's going to take time to saturate the market.

      Smartphones are a hell of a lot cheaper and don't last nearly as long as cars, so adoption is a lot easier when it only costs a few hundred bucks. Cars, on the other hand, run $15K at the cheapest, with most in the $25k to 50K range, and most new cars will easily last a decade with moderate use.

      --
      Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
  6. Hockey-based renewable energy by Event+Horizon · · Score: 5, Funny

    For Canada, there's a simple solution: Hockey-based renewable energy. It's simple.

    1) Embed neodymium magnets in hockey pucks.
    2) Run coils through hockey ice.
    3) Play hockey as usual.
    4) Profit.

    Moving puck induces current in coils, sufficient to cover Canada's energy needs and allow Canada to continue as a new energy exporter until, and maybe after, cold fusion.

    --
    You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows. - Bob Dylan "Subteranean Homesick Blue
  7. Finally wakey wakey time for Alberta? by dstyle5 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I've lived in Alberta for close to 20 years now and the PC government's failure to attempt (to my knowledge) to diversify the economy has reared its head again in the latest bust cycle in the oil and gas industry. Perhaps something like this report, coupled with the low commodity prices will finally wake up the provincial government that its time to actively support other industries here. BC gives tax credits to TV and film production companies and they had a banner year in 2015. I believe Quebec gives tax breaks to game companies and Ubisoft, for example, has a huge number of employees in Montreal.

    I work at a software dev company who has no oil and gas ties or customers, and surprise surprise, we are doing well during the downturn here. There is no guarantee of course but if the governments had spent some time, effort and petro dollars into trying to build and attract new industries here it probably wouldn't be quite as bad now as it is.

    1. Re:Finally wakey wakey time for Alberta? by Nemyst · · Score: 3, Interesting

      BC gives tax credits to TV and film production companies and they had a banner year in 2015. I believe Quebec gives tax breaks to game companies and Ubisoft, for example, has a huge number of employees in Montreal.

      I've been repeating this ad nauseam: this is where we should be going. It's less expensive in infrastructure (tar sands require roads, electricity, entire towns to be built in far off regions) and it's much more forward-looking. We have excellent universities throughout the country, cheap (cheaper in some places, but still cheap compared to the US) tuition and a solid foundation for an innovation/research-focused economy.

      The tax breaks to Ubisoft were a brilliant shot, since they've not only built up a studio of 2700 well-paid employees, they've also attracted/fostered dozens of other studios. Ubisoft branched out in Quebec City, Toronto and Halifax. Other companies like EA, Square Enix, Warner Brothers and more have opened their own studios to take advantage of the tax breaks and the skilled local workforce. At this point, the games industry in Montreal is growing on its own due to a feedback loop of opportunities attracting talent attracting more studios and creating more opportunities.

  8. Re:The Fort McMurray fire was a sign by AndroSyn · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The Fort McMurray fire was a result of 100+ years of fire suppression with a massive fuel load. It was a sign alright, poor forestry management was the primary culprit here. Well that and people living WAY to close to the urban-wildland interface.

    The good news is, once you have a huge fire like that, you're likely not to have one again for another 50-100 years since you know, all of the fuel is burnt.

    Global warming is a real issue, obviously, but in this case, wrong environmental issue to be going after.

  9. Nice editing by Comboman · · Score: 5, Informative

    a Vancouver-based cleantech fund

    Another 'company' with everything to benefit from x going away by declaring 'X is dead' 'fossil fuels are on the way out' Sick of this "x is dead' shit.

    Nice bit of editing there. The full quote is:

    a Vancouver-based cleantech fund created through a $100-million partnership with Cenovus and Suncor

    In case you don't know, Cenovus and Suncor are major producers of dirty Canadian tar-sand oil. So a more accurate assessment would be:

    Another company with everything to lose by declaring fossil fuels are on the way out is hedging its bets.

    --
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  10. The future is ALWAYS a threat. Get over it. by RubberDogBone · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The future is and has always been a goddamn threat. People hate change. Which is ironic because change is one thing people cannot control.

    Here's the real deal about the future of fossil fuels, and cars in particular. It's sobering. Sit down.

    Electric cars make sense for a lot of people, and as a second car for a lot of other people. So they -and hybrids like the Bolt and Prius- will continue to spread. As we transition to electric cars, we are also transitioning to automated driving. This is going to be the huge hit, the asteroid that kills dinosaurs.

    Automated cars will be more fuel (battery or fossil fuels, it won't matter) efficient by taking the most direct route from place to place and coordinating with other cars to avoid the need for sitting at traffic lights. This means they will bypass all those places people used to stop on the way. Food outlets, gas stations stores, all sorts of impulse stores are screwed. People won't bother to direct the automated driver to stop. Hell they might even drive by asleep! A LOT of roadside businesses will whither and die.

    At the same time automated driving spreads, a lot of fast food places will be installing robotic workers. Between restaurants going out of business and robots replacing people, there is going to be MASSIVE unemployment at the bottom of the workforce.

    Automated cars won't crash nearly as much, so body shops and towing services will go out of business too. Electric cars also break down a lot less and when they do, they'll need specialized support, so independant mechanics will also go out of business, or at least have a lot less work.

    With accidents down, the auto insurance business will take a huge hit as people no longer have accidents and consequently need less insurance and pay less premiums. A lot of insurance agents will go unemployed.

    With fewer crashes, highway deaths and injuries will have a huge decline, putting hospitals at risk if they rely upon auto trauma to fund their operations.

    Cities and towns accustomed to writing a lot of traffic tickets will find automated cars won't break nearly as many traffic laws, so revenue will plummet. Many of these places count on speeding ticket revenue and DUI fine revenue to fund the town operations. They're facing a calamity as the money dries up. Tax increases are inevitable.

    So the decline of oil is just one change coming. The changes to society from automated driving and the coming ridiculous unemployment will make the decline of oil look like nothing.

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