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IBM Has Been Awarded An Average Of 24 Patents Per Day So Far In 2016 (qz.com)

Traditional companies continue to score a huge number of patents, reports Quartz. The publication deep dived into the patent filings to find which company has been awarded the most number of patents this year. According to its finding, IBM has been awarded 3,617 patents so far this year, whereas Samsung comes close with 3,032 patents during the same period. Behind these giants sit Google with 1,530 patents, Intel with 1,293, Qualcomm with 1,262, Microsoft with 1,232, and Apple with 1,060 patents. From the report: Although IBM's patent-producing power slowed somewhat in 2015, the number of patents it's received so far this year is up more than 13% compared to a year earlier. The company is in the middle of a painful reinvention, that sees the company shifting further away from hardware sales into cloud computing, analytics, and AI services. It's also plugging away on a myriad of fundamental scientific research projects -- many of which could revolutionize the world if they can come to fruition -- which is where many of its patent applications originate. IBM accounted for about 1% of all US patents awarded in 2015.

54 comments

  1. IBM is a massive patent troll by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Linux's biggest supporter is a patent troll. Figures.

  2. Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It's hard to believe a company can produce that many novel things that need protecting

    1. Re:Wow by mwvdlee · · Score: 1

      Well, I guess the daily patent output DOES match the wordcount of a decent sized novel.

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    2. Re:Wow by Sir+Holo · · Score: 1

      It's hard to believe a company can produce that many novel things that need protecting

      It's called "creating a 'Patent Thicket' or 'Patent Wall'. Multiple patents covering minor variations of something, making the cost of an infringement-allegation defense more expensive.

      These are also how cross-licensing deals are worked out. The negotiating parties (effectively) slap their binders full of patents onto the table, and whoever's is taller has more clout in the "OK, we won't sue each other on these ones" negotiations.

    3. Re: Wow by brunes69 · · Score: 1

      You don't have to actually PRODUCE the thing to patent it. You just need to have the invention, and IBM has 400,000 people who get incentives to produce novel inventions.

  3. Congratulations India by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Your company is doing well.

  4. Welcome to the future. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No, the patent system is working perfectly fine, why do you ask?

    Of course I say this in sarcastic jest. Welcome to our future, where a dozen monopolies will control every thought you might have about innovation.

    I certainly hope they're ready for the future they're building. Not that they give a shit. Greed is blind.

  5. Who'd be an Inventor These Days? by lobiusmoop · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Every variation of every possibility has been legally locked up, The message I'm getting is "Don't try profiting from anything new of we'll sue you out of existence."

    --
    "I bless every day that I continue to live, for every day is pure profit."
    1. Re:Who'd be an Inventor These Days? by PolygamousRanchKid+ · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Every variation of every possibility has been legally locked up, The message I'm getting is "Don't try profiting from anything new of we'll sue you out of existence."

      Well, if you happen to work for IBM, I'm guessing it is worth your time to file a patent. They probably have some kind of compensation system where you get some dollars for a patent filed and granted. And it is probably a requirement for getting promoted to higher levels. And anyway, they probably have some of the meanest bad-assed M* F* patent attorneys from Hell working for them, who know how to push a patent through.

      Now if you are some guy working alone in your garage . . . there is no way that you can compete with these professional gunfighters. You could cure cancer, and the Big Boys would find a way to block the patent.

      --
      Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
    2. Re: Who'd be an Inventor These Days? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is some evidence that cancer as a whole may react to treatments designed to combat fungi. Stop being so small minded.

    3. Re:Who'd be an Inventor These Days? by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The flood of patents also helps to cover of one of those "golden BB" types, you know, like one that manage to lock up something like hyperlinks or "playing a game via a remote server" (like a company I was previously working for got hit with) without a patent office clerk throwing it out as deserved for obviousness and prior art. What's tragic is that the companies that are actually innovating (like aforementioned company) are too busy actually *writing code* to bother with bullshit like patents.

      These goddamned things are just like landmines. It's almost a certainty any piece of sufficiently complex code is going to infringe on a number of patents. I suppose the only good news is that with all the ridiculously (patently) obvious stuff that's getting patented right now, about 20 years from now, it's going to be damned hard to find any software concept that hasn't already been patented and expired. Or at least, that's what I'm telling myself to keep from getting too depressed about the situation.

      Damn... software patents really need to go. It's ridiculous. I keep wondering when the system is going to start imploding under its own weight.

      --
      Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
    4. Re:Who'd be an Inventor These Days? by PolygamousRanchKid+ · · Score: 1

      You can't fucking cure cancer, it's like saying your going to cure virus. Cancer is not like polio, you can't make a vaccine for it.

      Stop being a fucking idiot.

      http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vaccinations/pages/hpv-human-papillomavirus-vaccine.aspx

      . . . you were saying . . . ?

      You have a very potent combination of being both ignorant, and arrogant. And you can't even write English: " it's like saying your going to cure virus. "

      Come back here when you grow up.

      I've never had a high opinion of Anonymous Cowards, but it seems like you are delving to new depths.

      --
      Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
    5. Re:Who'd be an Inventor These Days? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you have a lot to learn about stem cells

    6. Re:Who'd be an Inventor These Days? by Crashmarik · · Score: 1

      The point is there isn't one cure for cancer, the same way there isn't one flu vaccine that never changes.
      You have to come up with new flu vaccines for the variants that emerge every year.
      The same way cancer is not one disease but many. So the treatment for Leukemia doesn't do much for Melanoma.

    7. Re:Who'd be an Inventor These Days? by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      Obviously IBM inventors would be inventors, because inventors need an army of lawyers and IBM inventors have an army of lawyers. And obviously IBM wouldn't do any research without the patent system, because the 1789 Constitution makes that assumption. SNAFU.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    8. Re: Who'd be an Inventor These Days? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Anything would probably be patented by someone else sooner or later. So what exactly is making IBM a culprit here?

    9. Re:Who'd be an Inventor These Days? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Way to miss his fucking point. Whining about the technicality of a metaphore.

      Stop being a fucking pedant.

    10. Re:Who'd be an Inventor These Days? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, if you happen to work for IBM, I'm guessing it is worth your time to file a patent. They probably have some kind of compensation system where you get some dollars for a patent filed and granted.

      Yep, its reasonable but hardly the driving motivation. We're talking "thank you" money, not something that would take up a noticable percentage of your salary even if you were extremely patent focused.

      And it is probably a requirement for getting promoted to higher levels.

      Patents are justification during performance reviews, and spoken highly of, but I know a large number of engineers that have avoided the process without issue.
      From personal experience, blogging or writing articles (developerworks, etc...) does more to boost your rating. My last promotion followed ~5 years without any involvement with patents.

      And anyway, they probably have some of the meanest bad-assed M* F* patent attorneys from Hell working for them, who know how to push a patent through.

      Yep, I'd say that's a safe bet. From personal experience though, there's a lot done to filter bad patents before legal sees them though. I've worked on prior art searches and seen patent drafts being bounced back repeatedly, and been involved in meetings that iterated over ideas for months before it was considered worthy of being pushed down the line.
      I don't speak for the company, etc... Just sharing my anecdotal experience.

    11. Re:Who'd be an Inventor These Days? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      He was making a fucking example. You are one of those assholes who jump in anytime someone leaves out details or simplifies things. It doesn't make you look smart. It makes you look like an ass.

    12. Re:Who'd be an Inventor These Days? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bad example twit.

    13. Re:Who'd be an Inventor These Days? by JesseEnjaian · · Score: 1

      http://patft.uspto.gov/ Patents cover a wide swath of things (bio to math to physics). As for tech patents, some of them are hardware stuff (e.g., some assholes currently own all of the 802.11 patents for silicon fabrication; like methods of reducing SNR or power consumption, etc which is, partially, why IoT chips are so expensive) and some are software (e.g., Amazon.com really has a patent on "a process of one-click checkout" and Apple really does pay them patent royalties for enabling one-click purchasing in iTunes).

      Patent lawsuits are over wrongful profiting: you stole an idea, made something with it, and then sold it for $$$. Hire a lawyer before step 2.

    14. Re:Who'd be an Inventor These Days? by JesseEnjaian · · Score: 1

      And it is probably a requirement for getting promoted to higher levels. And anyway, they probably have some of the meanest bad-assed M* F* patent attorneys from Hell working for them, who know how to push a patent through.

      This is true. Most big tech corps get their employees to get patents for them (as do a lot of universities). Apple, IBM, Microsoft, Oracle, Google, etc. The # of patents each has is staggering in proportion to their actual products. Also true that attorneys from hell (aka patent attorneys) file for them: the USPTO calls it a "patent prosecution" for a reason (i.e., you have to defend your thesis from undergrads with B.S. degrees who are reading your patent application)!

    15. Re:Who'd be an Inventor These Days? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have the idea to patent a system or a method to protect inventions ot ideas by filing a document Ill call my invention "patent" and everyone that wish to use the system will be able to license it from me at a very affordable price

    16. Re:Who'd be an Inventor These Days? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Damn... software patents really need to go. It's ridiculous. I keep wondering when the system is going to start imploding under its own weight.

      About 15 years ago.

    17. Re:Who'd be an Inventor These Days? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Damn... software patents really need to go. It's ridiculous. I keep wondering when the system is going to start imploding under its own weight.

      Software patents are merely a symptom of the disease, which is unethical practice of law. The lawyers choose to implement the legal system in such a way as to bring their profession huge amounts of long term business, and don't give a shit about the long term consequences for society as a whole.

      The right to ethical practice of law is an universal and inalienable right in any society based on the rule of law. It is violated every day, in countless ways. This is a cancer that affects every major area of US law, and is spreading to other countries.

      Getting rid of software patents will merely cure one of the symptoms, without healing the patient. The whole situation is ridiculous.

    18. Re:Who'd be an Inventor These Days? by Plumpaquatsch · · Score: 1

      Damn... software patents really need to go. It's ridiculous.

      Prove that it is by actually telling us how many of the patents mentioned in the summary are in fact "software patents".

      --
      Of course news about a fake are Fake News.
  6. Institute an intellectal property tax by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    First 'n' patents exempt (say, a number equal to the lifetime output of Thomas Edison) then $50,000 per year per patent if "sat-on" ($5000 if actually practiced). Valuable IP is still worth protecting, and protectable. Exemption protects 'little guys'; trolling becomes (hopefully MUCH) more expensive. Even better: proceeds could be earmarked to fund STEM education!

    1. Re: Institute an intellectal property tax by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You do realize that Edison was granted over 1,000 patents in the US alone, don't you?

    2. Re:Institute an intellectal property tax by Gavagai80 · · Score: 1

      This would just cause companies to find workarounds (like they do with taxes) in order to create entities which remain under the exemption limit to file all their patents for them.

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      This space intentionally left blank
    3. Re: Institute an intellectal property tax by E-Rock · · Score: 1

      That seems like a lot, and then you realize that IBM is on pace for 8,760 patents this year. Something is broken.

    4. Re: Institute an intellectal property tax by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      How about if we just recognize that ideas are worthless without execution?

      Look, I have plenty of ideas, but I never end up pursuing most of them for various reasons (no time, no money, too risky, etc). Why should people that actually implement an idea that I had and produce good things based on it be punished because I am lazy or a coward?

      Thats what IP protection does, really. It punishes those that do things, and rewards those that do nothing. Its a messed up system that is obsolete, but we cling onto it because it is a billion dollar business.

    5. Re: Institute an intellectal property tax by 31415926535897 · · Score: 1

      My idea has been to create an intellectual property tax that grows exponentially. The year the owner chooses not to pay the tax, the ip enters public domain. Start the tax small and set the curve so that you get a fair shot to use it (target 7 years). You can hold the patent (or copyright) as long as you want and can pay the tax, so an insanely profitable drug could be protected for longer than 17 years.

      I dislike the double standards between physical and intellectual property. I'm told I have to pay ridiculous taxes on my home to support infrastructure. Fair enough, but then ip holders need to participate in funding the infrastructure they use for the country to defend their property rights and use.

    6. Re: Institute an intellectal property tax by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why? IBM employs thousands of researchers. Edison was 1 guy (his company had even more patents). By that measure, IBM should acquire thousands of patents every year.

    7. Re: Institute an intellectal property tax by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Based on the people I know with patents, it can take years sometimes over a decade to become profitable. /. lives mostly in it's own little bubble and knows little about the world outside of computers.

    8. Re: Institute an intellectal property tax by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I dislike the double standards between physical and intellectual property. I'm told I have to pay ridiculous taxes on my home to support infrastructure.

      You are being lied to.

      In a free country, nobody should have to rent their home from the government, which is what property taxes come down to in the final analysis. People should be free to be able to own their own home, otherwise they don't really live in a free country. It's a matter of basic freedoms.

      Failing to recognize this is a violation of fundamental rights in a free country, and unethical practice of law, and hence illegal.

      Infrastructure can be paid for (and was paid for, for much of history) by sales taxes, tariffs, income taxes, and so forth. Further, there's nothing wrong in principle with assessing property taxes on a business, as no rational society is obligated to give organizations the same legal status is real people. It's probably not a good idea to asses property taxes on active farms, since that means land tends to get converted to uses that do not address primary human needs, but that's a separate issue. Similarly, it's not a good idea to assess property taxes on open spaces and other wild lands, provided right they aren't fenced off or posted.

      The failure to anticipate the need to pay for infrastructure has, over the past century or so, led a variety of governments at various levels to implement illegal taxes. Getting rid of those taxes is going to be very hard, and it all results from gross incompetence on the part of government during previous generations.

      Worse, once government starts down the slippery slope of passing illegal laws, it's a short step to passing even more illegal laws (such as California's proposition 13, which infringes the right to travel by making property taxes higher for people that move, a form of travel: the power to tax is the power to destroy).

  7. It's illegal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    to do anything. What a shit country.

  8. So which one do you think it is? by Opportunist · · Score: 2

    Either: 24 new inventions that required enough time and effort to warrant granting the one investing so heavily into their development protection from copycats per day, the singularity is practically on the horizon!

    Or: The patent system is FUBAR and has nothing to do anymore with its alleged function.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    1. Re:So which one do you think it is? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is bullshit patents. It is just legal ammunition to spit at competition.

  9. They dropped out of the top 20 in R&D in 2015 by Solandri · · Score: 5, Interesting

    First time in, well, almost forever that that's happened. Yeah IBM gets a lot of patents, but they also spend a lot in R&D. Have done so since the beginning of the 20th century. In 2015 their R&D spending dropped to $5.2 billion, which dropped them out of top 20 R&D companies in the world.

    Here's how the others mentioned in TFA stack up:

    IBM ........ $82b revenue ... $5.2b R&D ... 6.3% of revenue
    Saumsung .. $196b revenue .. $14.1b R&D ... 7.2% of revenue
    Google ..... $66b revenue ... $9.8b R&D .. 14.8% of revenue
    Intel ...... $56b revenue .. $11.5b R&D .. 20.6% of revenue
    Qualcomm ... $25b revenue ... $3.7b R&D .. 14.6% of revenue
    Microsoft .. $87b revenue .. $11.4b R&D .. 13.1% of revenue
    Apple ..... $183b revenue ... $6.0b R&D ... 3.3% of revenue


    Despite Apple's reputation among lay people as an innovator, they're really not. They don't use much of their income on R&D. This is their first year cracking the top 20 in R&D spending, and as you can see the percentage they spend on R&D trails far behind the others.

  10. Agreed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The patent system serves to ensure that the established wealthy don't have to worry about competition from startups. All other justifications are just nice-sounding bullshit that doesn't play out in practice.

    Feel free to call for a fix of the patenting system if you like. You are just asking those who benefit most from it to rob themselves of said benefits. Good luck with that!

  11. Re: They dropped out of the top 20 in R&D in 2 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Apple doesn't have a reputation as an inventator, they have a reputation as the "cool" product. They've had ~4 innovative products in their history, all improving on things that already exist. The rest of their products merely copy other products and make them cool.

  12. oh my I thought it took 18 months by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    oh wait that's just for poor suckers. big money = big patents.

  13. Quality not Quantity by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Despite Apple's reputation among lay people as an innovator, they're really not. They don't use much of their income on R&D.

    When it comes to modern patents where "one click to purchase" counts as an "invention" you cannot measure innovation by the number of patents or an R&D budget. Apple's innovations have been in design more than technology and despite that far smaller budget they seem to have come up with far more innovations than e.g. Microsoft for whom I'm struggling to come up with any recent innovative products except perhaps the Surface despite their far higher budget.

    1. Re:Quality not Quantity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry no, it's quantity. If you have enough patents you can sue that little guy with the one quality patent out of existence.

    2. Re:Quality not Quantity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Xbox? Kinect V1 and V2 (granted V1 is Primsense and V2 is Canesta, but Apple is guilty of buying IP too) are great examples of innovative products.

  14. SOP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you company doesn't have lawyers pressuring you to submit patents from the code you are writing right now, they are doing it wrong. This has been going on since the 90s at least. How do you think remove whitespace from the beginning and end of an sql statement gets patented?

  15. Patent != Innovation by Mersault · · Score: 2

    Most IBM patents are junk. There was a programme there that awarded any crap that people could think up - I blocked one about 3D spatial audio because the guy had absolutely no idea how his 'idea' could actually be implemented.

    The only purpose of patents here is to provide weapons that IBM can bash other companies with (or prevent themselves being bashed by other company's patents). It only acts to discourage actual innovation by startups.

    --
    Mersault.
    1. Re:Patent != Innovation by dweller_below · · Score: 1
      It is nice to see that the exponential growth in the number of patents has finally faltered: http://www.uspto.gov/web/offic... It's a pity that the current rate of patent creation is more than sufficient to destroy almost all production and innovation.

      We have been fooled into thinking that patents are innovation. But, the current rate of patent creation is anti-innovation and anti-productive.

      Patents are not Innovation. Patents are not Progress. Patents are simply grounds to file a lawsuit against an industry. More Patents are simply more grounds for more lawsuits. Patents don't guarantee production or innovation. They only enable lawsuits.

      An occasional lawsuit might possibly spur innovation. BUT LAWSUITS DO NOT PRODUCE. Lawsuits are parasitic on innovation and production. The current patent industry is responsible for enormous numbers of lawsuits every year. This legal deathtrap has captured marketplaces, destroyed production and stagnated innovation.

  16. Already done by dtmos · · Score: 1

    My idea has been to create an intellectual property tax that grows exponentially.

    This already exists, in the form of patent maintenance fees. In addition to the fees one pays to get the patent to issue, to keep a patent in force one must pay fees at the 3.5, 7.5, and 11.5 year point. If any one of the fees is not paid, the patented material enters the public domain.

    For large entities, the fees are $1600, $3600, and $7400, respectively.
    For small entities, the fees are halved.
    For "micro" entities, the fees are halved again.

    As a side note, one of IBM's corporate strategies has been to patent early and often, but vigorously and mercilessly prune their portfolio at these points, when they have a better idea of the value of the invention to the company. Many, if not most, of their patents do not make even the first cut and so are allowed to enter the public domain at year 3.5.

  17. Gibson called it by Cederic · · Score: 1

    I think my life is going to be a miserable ongoing revelation of just how much Gibson got right, way back in '84.

    Heading towards that corporate controlled world, where you work for the big guys, you're operating in the crevices the light doesn't reach, or you're the exploited majority.

  18. Re:They dropped out of the top 20 in R&D in 20 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    What a fucking stupid comment - have you patented it yet?

    You claim that IBM spends so fucking much more on R&D than anybody else - and then show that out of 6 companies, IBM spends second least both in absolute terms and as percentage of revenue. And then you claim that Apple isn't innovative because they spend less in relative terms than IBM - but more in absolute dollars. Which is baloney even if we try hard not to look at the actual ROI on the R&D dollars spend.

  19. WTF by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The "Related Links" section at the bottom of the page seems to think that patents are related to mass shootings.

  20. IBM greatest patent troll. by MichaelJackson123 · · Score: 1

    IBM is the biggest patent troll. Ever. Who else do you think get $2 billion a year from patent trolling alone? Why do you think IBM has so many patents? Many of the patents are really silly, obvious and has broad coverage. IBM was always considered the big bad company, until Microsoft took over the crown, but IBM has never ceased to being bad. Have you followed IBMs ugly maneuvours in the Mainframe market? Horrendous stories. Every competitor is sued, or bought. Why is IBM called the "Big Blue"? Because they have so many lawyers in blue suits. More lawyers than engineers at one point in time. What do IBM use all those lawyers for? At IBM, a lawyer is more profitable than an engineer, that is why. It was really dumb by SCO to attack IBM for Linux patent trolling, IBM is the king of patent trolling. Really really stupid by SCO, they should know that no one can extract patent profit from IBM. IBM is the big extractor. IBM needed that Linux case, to polish the bad IBM reputation. Sun Microsystems never cared about patents, until IBM nearly bankrupted Sun. After that, Sun started to patent everything and the engineers had a contest to get the goofiest patent. As told by James Gosling, father of Java: http://nighthacks.com/roller/j... "...In Sun's early history, we didn't think much of patents. While there's a kernel of good sense in the reasoning for patents, the system itself has gotten goofy. Sun didn't file many patents initially. But then we got sued by IBM for violating the "RISC patent" - a patent that essentially said "if you make something simpler, it'll go faster". Seemed like a blindingly obvious notion that shouldn't have been patentable, but we got sued, and lost. The penalty was huge. Nearly put us out of business. We survived, but to help protect us from future suits we went on a patenting binge. Even though we had a basic distaste for patents, the game is what it is, and patents are essential in modern corporations, if only as a defensive measure. There was even an unofficial competition to see who could get the goofiest patent through the system...." Another patent trolling story where IBM attorneys black mail Sun: "Pay us $20 million or we will find some IBM patents you do violate and sue you" http://www.forbes.com/asap/200... "...My own introduction to the realities of the patent system came in the 1980s, when my client, Sun Microsystems--then a small company--was accused by IBM of patent infringement. Threatening a massive lawsuit, IBM demanded a meeting to present its claims. Fourteen IBM lawyers and their assistants, all clad in the requisite dark blue suits, crowded into the largest conference room Sun had. The chief blue suit orchestrated the presentation of the seven patents IBM claimed were infringed, the most prominent of which was IBM's notorious "fat lines" patent: To turn a thin line on a computer screen into a broad line, you go up and down an equal distance from the ends of the thin line and then connect the four points. You probably learned this technique for turning a line into a rectangle in seventh-grade geometry, and, doubtless, you believe it was devised by Euclid or some such 3,000-year-old thinker. Not according to the examiners of the USPTO, who awarded IBM a patent on the process. After IBM's presentation, our turn came. As the Big Blue crew looked on (without a flicker of emotion), my colleagues--all of whom had both engineering and law degrees--took to the whiteboard with markers, methodically illustrating, dissecting, and demolishing IBM's claims. We used phrases like: "You must be kidding," and "You ought to be ashamed." But the IBM team showed no emotion, save outright indifference. Confidently, we proclaimed our conclusion: Only one of the seven IBM patents would be deemed valid by a court, and no rational court would find that Sun's technology infringed even that one. An awkward silence ensued. The blue suits did not even confer among themse