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Drivers Prefer Autonomous Cars That Don't Kill Them (hothardware.com)

"A new study shows that most people prefer that self-driving cars be programmed to save the most people in the event of an accident, even if it kills the driver," reports Information Week. "Unless they are the drivers." Slashdot reader MojoKid quotes an article from Hot Hardware about the new study, which was published by Science magazine. So if there is just one passenger aboard a car, and the lives of 10 pedestrians are at stake, the survey participants were perfectly fine with a self-driving car "killing" its passenger to save many more lives in return. But on the flip side, these same participants said that if they were shopping for a car to purchase or were a passenger, they would prefer to be within a vehicle that would protect their lives by any means necessary. Participants also balked at the notion of the government stepping in to regulate the "morality brain" of self-driving cars.
The article warns about a future where "a harsh AI reality may whittle the worth of our very existence down to simple, unemotional percentages in a computer's brain." MIT's Media Lab is now letting users judge for themselves, in a free online game called "Moral Machine" simulating the difficult decisions that might someday have to be made by an autonomous self-driving car.

18 of 451 comments (clear)

  1. News at 5... by x0ra · · Score: 5, Insightful

    People value their own lives..

    1. Re:News at 5... by PopeRatzo · · Score: 5, Informative

      Sigh... this issue is so bloody simple to resolve.

      1. Default to a default set of morals, which include a reasonable (but not excessive) degree of self-sacrifice - based around the sort of decisions a "typical" driver would make.

      That sounds anything but simple.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    2. Re: News at 5... by bigpat · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The premise that people make split second ethical judgements is delusional. What people do is react. And many times they don't react in time to avoid the worst possible outcome.

      And if they survive their brains spend hours, days, weeks and years even going over and over what happened. The brain in trying to learn from what happened adds more processing than was therein the first place.

      Our false recollections. All the things you could have, should have, but didn't have time to think about when really all you had time to do was jerk the wheel and BAM!

      And now a bunch of delusional people are trying to apply some false notion of ethics to decision making that should be as simple as stop the car before hitting something. There isn't enough time to consider other options. There never was enough time. People just think there was because our brains work that way.

    3. Re:News at 5... by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 5, Funny

      1. Default to a default set of morals...

      Um, what?

      Make a straightforward procedure for people to customize the vehicle's morals.

      Okay. Anyone with a goatee dies first. Child molesters and people that talk in the theater are next in line (in homage to Shepherd Book). I'm flexible after that, but the list *will* include people on cell phones who don't pay attention to their surroundings and people who take more than 5s to make a drink order at Starbucks. Any other suggestions?

      --
      It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    4. Re: News at 5... by bigpat · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The problem is that people replay traumatic accidents over and over in their heads and end up thinking that they had time to consider all the scenarios when they probably barely had time to react in the first place. The brain's attempt to learn from an accident and think of the "what-if" is what creates these embellished recollections.

      Now people are applying this delusional thought process to machines and setting unrealistic expectations.

      Just need to keep it simple and stop the car as safely as possible.

    5. Re:News at 5... by Firethorn · · Score: 4, Informative

      Come back to me when you have *realistic* scenarios.

      Indeed. One of the things that was covered in my motorcycle safety class was the concept of 'traction management'.

      To keep it simple, depending on the type and condition of the road and your tires, you only have so much traction. It takes traction capability to do anything - speed up, slow down, or turn. It was part of them teaching us that you are not to brake in a turn on a motorcycle. Cars can get away with that, bikes(pushed to limit) can't. You brake, then turn. If you need to stop during a turn, you straighten and brake.

      Anyways, to get back to the point - it takes traction to turn. For motorcycles and cars, they covered that it's better to brake than to dodge for any substantial obstacle - if you have the luxury of dodging it, you could have braked to stop hitting it.

      So, in the situations mentioned, they're stuck using trains, which have stopping distances that no car maker would be allowed to release a vehicle with. Short of the langoliers being behind you eating everything, braking is pretty much the universal solution.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    6. Re: News at 5... by geekmux · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The premise that people make split second ethical judgements is delusional. What people do is react. And many times they don't react in time to avoid the worst possible outcome.

      Humans can and do make "split second" ethical judgements, based on their own ethics. A mother will likely try and save her children, even at the expense of her own life. A teenager may be more about self-preservation whatever the cost. The future will be an algorithm deciding for you, no matter what your position is in society, and no matter what your beliefs are. Or perhaps your position in society will matter, as the President's vehicle may be programmed for self-preservation no matter what.

      And if they survive their brains spend hours, days, weeks and years even going over and over what happened...

      Oh yes, that will never happen once the magical machines start taking lives. No mother will do this once their child is gone, wondering how the algorithm got it so wrong. No father will want to punish the machine programmer for taking their child.

      If we think the "trial and error" period for IoT will be bad, this will be fucking horrible.

      And that's just the shit we have to deal with before the hacking starts.

    7. Re:News at 5... by Charcharodon · · Score: 4, Funny
      Better yet program the cars to hunt for such things. Jaywalking is a crime, the car should aim for people like that. Use the crosswalk next time dumbass.

      Maybe program them to go after smokers and kids skateboarding in skateboarding free zones....just give them the entire government employee roster of major departments: IRS, EPA, Congress, etc.

    8. Re: News at 5... by anarcobra · · Score: 5, Insightful

      > should be as simple as stop the car before hitting something
      So much this.
      I have a really hard time thinking of any realistic situation where killing you will save 10 people.
      What? Ten people are just standing out in the street and the only other option is to drive off a cliff?
      Fuck them. Why are they in the middle of the road?
      Just hit the brakes and hope for the best.
      Since it's an automatic car it shouldn't be driving fast in a zone with pedestrians anyway, and people shouldn't be walking on highways.

  2. That's normal by rrohbeck · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Save the environment, reduce carbon emissions, save water, reduce debt... unless it affects me financially.

  3. Re:It Doesn't Matter; It Won't Ever Happen by Fwipp · · Score: 5, Insightful

    But the car doesn't need to make a psychic "This is the most valuable life" calculation/decision.

    It just uses its regular crash-avoidance behavior (say, hitting the brakes), and maybe somebody dies. The cop on the scene decides that the pedestrian probably shouldn't have been trying to cross the freeway, and everyone else moves on with their lives. The end.

  4. I'm from Seattle by PPH · · Score: 4, Funny

    If we could get an AI that can kill for a parking space, I'd be fine with that.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
  5. Re:contrived examples by Tim+the+Gecko · · Score: 4, Insightful

    These scenarios are just a little bit contrived... I can't fathom any real life scenario where any of these situations would occur with the odds of both options being equal, which is the point where the software would be called upon to exhibit a preference of one option over another.

    Exactly. Why don't people discuss the millions of small decisions - "how quickly shall I go through this stop sign?", "should I signal this turn or is it too much hassle?". Those are where the existing human software is causing bad consequences on a daily basis.

    No, let's discuss the one in a billion corner case instead.

  6. It's a liability issue by duckintheface · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Self driving cars will transfer the liability from the owner of the car to the manufacturer of the car. This is already happening. Otherwise, they could never sell a car to anyone. But if the liability is held by the manufacturer, you can be sure the crash algorithm will be one that minimizes total casualties (and thus total liability).

    And notice that this is the same issue behind the Will Smith film, "I, Robot". Will's character is rescued from drowning by a robot that lets a little girl drown instead. The robot had calculated the chances of saving each and Will won the AI lottery.

    --
    "He took a duck in the face at 250 knots." -- William Gibson, Pattern Recognition
    1. Re: It's a liability issue by hawguy · · Score: 4, Funny

      Jesus Christ. Please never reference the film version of "I, Robot" ever again.

      Why not? It's way better than the boring stories that dude Asimov ripped off from the movie.

    2. Re: It's a liability issue by l0n3s0m3phr34k · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "I, Robot" is a collection of short stories. As "Golden Age" scifi it's top-of-the-line, but it's pretty outdated so any one story from it would make a pretty horrible movie. Smith's movie actually incorporates several themes and ideas from the original book. Personally, I thought the movie was quite interesting, especially the idea of "emergent behavior". We're just now using the idea in swarm programing of bots, letting them figure out their own best patterns of moving around together.

    3. Re: It's a liability issue by hey! · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Ultimately the Three Laws were a literary device. Asimov was tired of stories where robots run amok, so he made up rules that would, on the face of it, make robots running amok seem impossible. He then used these rules to make superior robots-run-amok stories.

      What makes those stories interesting is that they're all about how our simplistic reasoning leads us to dismiss real possibilities too quickly. Most people simply assume things work they way they were designed to work, but smart people realize that purposes can be gamed as long as the letter of the rules aren't broken. It is true that Asimov introduced a 0th Law, but the other laws remain in effect; robots in his stories are conflicted. In Jeff Vintar's screenplay the 0th law simply overrides the other laws; the lower priority rules are in effect nullified, which doesn't happen in Asimov's stories. The screenplay was a bog-standard robots run amok story with a little Asimovian window dressing thrown in, nowhere as good as anything Asimov did. Because Jeff Vintar isn't anywhere near as smart as Isaac Asimov.

      But then again, neither am I, and probably not you either.

      I very much doubt Asimov thought that people would ever build something like the Three Laws into technology in such a fundamental way; that was just a literary device that enabled him to display his astounding cleverness. I don't think it'll ever happen either, for the simple reason that killing people will be a driving for in the adoption of autonomous robot technology.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
  7. Even simpler by TheLink · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Hahaha. It's even simpler than that. Everyone seems to be making the assumption that the cars will be such driving geniuses. That's not going to happen for quite a long while.

    0) We all know that stopping in the middle of the highway is dangerous, BUT the way the laws are written in most countries, it's practically always your fault if you drive into the rear of another vehicle especially if it didn't swerve into your path and merely braked suddenly, or worse was stationary for some time.

    1) Thus for legal and liability reasons the robot cars will be strictly obeying all convincing posted speed limits (even if they are stupidly slow by some mistake, or by some prankster), and will stick to speeds where they would be able to brake in time to avoid collisions or at least fatal collisions. Whichever is slower.

    2) In most danger situations the robot cars will brake and try to come to a stop ASAP all while turning on its hazard lights. Which shouldn't be too difficult at those said speeds.

    3) If people die because of tailgating it's the tailgater's fault. Same if the driver behind doesn't stop.

    4) There are hardware/software failures then it's some vendors fault.

    5) If braking won't avoid the problem even at "tortoise speeds", in most cases fancy moves wouldn't either. In the fringe cases where fancy moves would have helped but braking wouldn't AND it would be the robot car's fault if it braked, the insurance companies would be more than willing to take those bets.

    The odds of the car being designed to do fancier moves to save lives are practically zero. If I was designing the car I wouldn't do it - imagine if the car got confused and did some fancy moves to "avoid collision" and killed some little kids. In contrast if it got confused and came to stop ASAP if any little kids are killed it would more likely be someone else's fault.

    If you are a human driver/cyclist/motorcyclist you better not tailgate such cars.

    Look at the Google car accident history, most of the accidents were due to other drivers. Perhaps I'm wrong but my guess is it's because of "tailgating". Those drivers might still believe the AI car was doing it wrong but the law wouldn't be on their side.

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