Israel Accuses Facebook Of Aiding Terrorists and Hampering Police Investigations (reuters.com)

"The young generation in the Palestinian Authority suckles all of its incitement against Israel from Facebook and, in the end, goes and commits murders," Israel's Minister of Internal Security said Saturday. "Some of the blood of the victims of the recent attacks...is unfortunately on the hands of Mark Zuckerberg, because the police and security forces could have been told about the post of that vile murderer." Reuters calls the remarks "ramping up the pressure" as Israel prepares legislation which would allow it to order social media sites to remove posts it considered threatening. The security minister says Facebook currently "sets a very high bar for removing inciteful content and posts" and "sabotages the work of the Israeli police" by being uncooperative.

Facebook responded that there's "no room for content that promotes violence, direct threats, terrorist or hate speeches on our platform." BetaNews writes that "while Facebook waits for content to be reported before acting, Israeli Justice Minister Ayelet Shaked said that the site should be pro-active in seeking out offending content instead."

Comments

Israel abuses human rights

[Anonymous Coward]

The war crimes committed in Lebanon and Gaza are awful. I despise Hamas and Hezbollah; they cannot be justified. However, the use of cluster bombs in southern Lebanon is inexcusable. How about Israel submits their leaders for war crimes prosecution and then we'll talk?

Re: Israel abuses human rights

[Hevel-Varik]

It is one of the most one sided issues in modern history. Everything he said is 100 percent true. There was never palestinian arab identity and it was manufactured and nurtured with the express intent of eradicating Israel. They didn't even hide it. At the same time the arabs waged 2 full scale wars of aggression and the victors were 'required' to act in ways never dreamed about in the history of warfare. At the same time Israel has made deadly concession after deadly concession for naught agains a backdrop of ever increasing non-Jewish hostility. Empathy? For the arabs from the Jews? That's rich. You need to do a bit of investigation into the standard curriculum in gaza and the west bank schools.

Re: Israel abuses human rights

[PopeRatzo]

I want everyone to take a close look at the URL of this guy's citation of a "survey of respected Generals from around the world".

www.high-level-military-group.org

Can anyone else spot the clue that it's bogus?

OK, now take a loot at the "In The Media" section from that website. Can you spot the single issue that appears to be the sole reason for this group of "respected Generals from around the world" to exist?

http://www.high-level-military...

You have to be able to know when you're being had.

Re: Israel abuses human rights

[Kohath]

How many decades should they let go by without accomplishing anything besides being angry?

Re: Israel abuses human rights

[CronoCloud]

There was never palestinian arab identity and it was manufactured and nurtured with the express intent of eradicating Israel.

Sure there was....Before WW2. Remember, the area we now call Israel was majority Palestinian before WW2. Then the brits basically just handed the region over to the remaining Jews of EUROPE...and ignored the Palestinian locals

Yeah sure, the Brits and everyone else felt guilty about the Holocaust, but that was no excuse for the stupidity that has caused endless sorrow. The whole word would have been better off if the jews of Europe had been handed a piece of Arizona or Alaska and told to either shut the fuck up about Palestine or go back to post-war Europe where they were FROM.

Re: Israel abuses human rights

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh well in that case cluster bombing civilians is OK because they didn't sign a treaty saying it's not OK.

Re:Israel abuses human rights

[frovingslosh]

No kidding. I've sworn to never use Facebook, but now if Israel hates it .....

Re: Israel abuses human rights

[CronoCloud]

Their whois leads to domainsbyproxy so we can't find out what group is bankrolling the site. I can tell that it is not a US based organization since their PDF's use A4 page sizing.

Re: Israel abuses human rights

[Anonymous Coward]

Why do you hate jews?

Because they're doing similar to Palestine that the Nazis did to them, and have the audacity to scream "antisemitism" when anyone tries to call them on it.

Re: Israel abuses human rights

[Nethead]

It looks like the site is run by Davis Lewin who is linked to the Henry Jackson Society A.K.A., 'Scoop' Jackson (D), a Washington State Congressman and Senator from 1941-1983.

From the wiki:

"A Cold War liberal and anti-Communist Democrat, Jackson supported higher military spending and a hard line against the Soviet Union, while also supporting social welfare programs, civil rights, and labor unions.[1] His political beliefs were characterized by support of civil rights, human rights, and safeguarding the environment, but with an equally strong commitment to oppose totalitarianism in general, and communism in particular.[2] The political philosophies and positions of Scoop Jackson have been cited as an influence on a number of key figures associated with neoconservatism, including Paul Wolfowitz and Richard Perle, both of whom previously served as aides to the Senator.[3] The Henry Jackson Society is named in his honor."

He was also known as the Senator from Boeing.

Growing up I remember that Scoop and Maggie were the Senators-for-life in Washington State.

Re: Israel abuses human rights

[PopeRatzo]

The political philosophies and positions of Scoop Jackson have been cited as an influence on a number of key figures associated with neoconservatism, including Paul Wolfowitz and Richard Perle.

A real murderers row.

Re: Israel abuses human rights

[Nethead]

And seem to have crept into our neo-liberal bunch as well.

Re: Israel abuses human rights

[jIyajbe]

"Peace is not part of their vocabulary. Only Hate Israel, Destroy Israel."

And this is an example of the harm done by generalizations and pre-judging people based on the group they a part of.

In 2005, a Palestinian 12-year old boy was shot by an Israeli soldier who mistook his toy gun for a real weapon. Despite the best efforts of the Israeli physicians, he was declared brain dead a few days later. His parents--who had just lost their son to an Israeli soldier's mistake--decided against riot and anger; instead, they donated all of the boy's organs. The recipients were Israelis--with the parents' blessing.

"I donâ(TM)t mind seeing the organs in an Israeli or a Palestinian. In our religion, God allows us to give organs to another person and it doesnâ(TM)t matter who the person is,â(TM) said Jamal al-Khatib, the boyâ(TM)s father, who added that he hoped the donations would send a message of peace to Israelis and Palestinians."

http://imemc.org/article/14861...

Re: Israel abuses human rights

[Sun]

The discussion so far: A couple of Israeli ministers spew complete nonsense. A bunch of Slashdot readers respond with complete and utter baseless bullshit. Pro-Israeli readers respond with rehashed lines. Everybody feel so much better for "sticking it" to the other side. Great...

My side (the pro-Israel side) has started pushing the "Palestinians are a made up nation" narrative. I hate that narrative. Not because it is factually false, but because it is irrelevant. Whether manufactured or organically grown, whether ancient or 60 years old, the Palestinians are a nation today, and as such, their quest (such that there is) for self determination is a legitimate one.

With that said, what you replied is factually false. Pre-WW2 there is was no Palestinian nation. The people you refer to who lived in mandatory Palestine did not call themselves Palestinian. They called themselves Arab. They had none of the markers that made them a distinct nation than the Arabs who lived in any other territories in the area.

The Palestinian nation developed as a result of the Israeli-Arab conflict. After Israel was founded, those specific Arabs were treated distinctly from the rest of the Arab population, both by Israel and by other surrounding countries. It should not surprise anyone that when a group of people is treated distinctly, it starts to think of itself as distinct.

As for the rest of your suggestion for the Jews, my family came from Iraq. The family left there after the Iraqi government pushed the Jews out by confiscating their property. What exactly is your helpful suggestion to me?

Re: Israel abuses human rights

[Sun]

WOW! 229 words and not a single true fact.

Trying to keep the discussion from going too much astray, let's focus on the nationality claim:

Nationality: a group of people who share the same history, traditions, and language, and who usually live together in a particular country

Care to cite any evidence for your claims? There are several nationality markers, the things that make a group of people a nation. Care to show that the Arabs who lived in pre-Israel Palestine had those distinctly from other Arabs, and in common with Jews?

Shachar

Re: Israel abuses human rights

[Dog-Cow]

The Jews were fighting British forces as much as Arab, in the War for Independence. The British didn't hand over anything. That aside, it's been over 60 years. When will the Arabs realize they lost the war and get on with living? They were given Jordan, which is significantly larger than the 1948 borders of Israel. The West Bank was part of Jordan then, and between 1948 and 1967 there was not a single Jordanian civil war to create an autonomous "Palestinian" State. Only after Jordan lost the territory to Israel do we find that suddenly the "Palestinian" people need their own State.

Arabs can't stand losing to Jews. There is absolutely nothing else of any consequence to explain the history of the Israeli-Arab conflict. Wars happen; some win and some lose. This has been the entire known history of humanity. Only Jews who win are expected to give in to the losers.

Re: Israel abuses human rights

[Dog-Cow]

Really? The German Jewish population was decimated during WWII. The Arab population in the WB has increased by several hundred percent since 1967. Please explain how Israel is doing to the Arabs what the Germans did to the Jews.

We'll wait, but we won't hold our breath.

Re: Israel abuses human rights

[Anonymous Coward]

well either israel is bombing its own citizens or occupying a foreign land. they should make up their mind about that already, are they in a constant war where they dont grant pow rights or are they running an apartheid regime? for some reason answering this or even asking this is too much to ask from israelis voters. majority if them wants the situation so fuck them, they should be sanctioned off global markets.

in either case they would be quilty of numerous war crimes and human rights violations(as is their mortal saudi enemies).

most of israeli voters are well educated so they should know how evil and inconsistent they make themselves look - they want either war or denying citizen rights based on religion and skin color(black jews in israel are screwed over too).

Re: Israel abuses human rights

[jandersen]

The whole word would have been better off if the jews of Europe had been handed a piece of Arizona or Alaska and told to either shut the fuck up about Palestine or go back to post-war Europe where they were FROM.

I don't know about sending them to America - looking at who's contributed to science and culture, I find that there is rather a lot of Jews, so I would think it would have been a lot better to try harder to get them to stay in Europe. However, after the war, it was probably too late; we should have mended our ways long before.

That said, Zionism is a harebrained idea which only got off the ground because we Europeans had painted ourselves into a corner - several times - and we wanted to get rid of a problem, so we went along with it and helped found a new nation, based on overwhelming, military power and gross injustice against the locals, whether you call them Palestinians or not. It is not easy to build a stable, righteous and long lasting nation on such a basis, and I have a hard time seeing that the government of Israel are trying very hard.

Re:Israel abuses human rights

[Wootery]

Aaaaaand instantly the thread spirals into irrelevant bickering about the relative merits of Israel and Palestine.

Thank you for dooming this potentially interesting discussion on the responsibilities of social media.

Next time, please make an effort to control your knee-jerk response to the word 'Israel'.

Re: Israel abuses human rights

[AmiMoJo]

What exactly is your helpful suggestion to me?

I'm not the GP but let me offer you some advice.

Pressure your government to put the border back to there the UN says it should be, back to the 1960s location. Stop all military action against Palestine, concentrate on defence from within your own borders only. Remove the blockade and allow Palestine to flourish.

It will be hard for the first few years, but as Palestine recovers and people find they can build a prosperous life if they concentrate on living instead of fighting you, the violence will die down. Any other course of action is just going to perpetuate the cycle.

Re: Israel abuses human rights

[silentcoder]

>Palestinians are a made up people with a made up agenda from Arab states that simply wish for Jews to be eradicated

The country of Palestine had existed for centuries when Israel was founded in 1948. Blatant lie.

>Despite all of that - when Arabs were encouraged to leave the land of Israel in 1948
Palestinians are not Arabs. They are semites, - ethnically they are exactly the same race as Israelis, they just have a different religion. This was proven by numerous genetic studies. You want to know who Palestinians really are ? They are the Jews who did NOT emigrate to Europe. The Jews that stayed behind. They just changed religion over the years.

>Jews BOUGHT the land from Arabs
And nobody in the international community has a problem with them living in the land they bought. It's all those settlements in land that aren't theirs that's pissing people off. Not to mention that terrible treatment of civilians in places like Gaza which includes killing them en masse.

The rest of your racist tripe is filled with equally blatant lies, misrepresentations and flat out fabrications. Israel is far from an innocent party in the problems in the area. Their actions left millions of people stateless and, as in history has so often happened, the oppressed has become the oppressor.

By the way EVERYTHING you just said about Israel was said about the appartheid government in South Africa - who were great friends with Israel. Yet South Africa manage to end the appartheid system, the unequal laws, unequal representation, illegal occupations - all of it, around negotiating table while averting another war.
It required the minority to give up sole political power - to be prepared to live as mere equals and not get special treatment, and negotiate a constitution to protect everybody. It was something that looked impossible even while it was busy happening, yet it happened. It can be done. If Israel wants a future, that future MUST be a system that gives full and equal rights to paletinians in the region as well as the descendents of palestinian refugees who wants to return. Anything else is a recipe for perpetual bloodshed. That is simply a fact - nowhere in history has any other outcome ever occurred - and none ever can. You can NEVER quell uprising by getting more violent, it only makes the uprisers get more violent in return. You shoot a thousand palestinians because they launched a misile at you ? It will NOT prevent the next misile, it will cause ten new ones to be launched.

It won't be easy, but it's the ONLY thing that can work - getting around a table to negotiate with a genuine desire for success. In South Africa negotiations broke down the first time - and the people had to have the grit to get back around the table and start over, that may happen, it won't be easy. But there are some things that any successfull negotiation (whether that's a one-state or a two-state solution) inevitably MUST do to succeed: and number one is full and equal rights for palestinians. You cannot have a peaceful society if a people are being denied equal rights, it's never worked in history and it never will.

Re: Israel abuses human rights

[silentcoder]

For a start - they are a different race. They are not Arabs ethnically. They are semmites. The exact same race as the Jews. Numerous genetic studies have proven over and over again: the Palestinians ARE Jews, they just changed religion. They are the jews that stayed behind when the diaspora was happening.

Re: Israel abuses human rights

[Sun]

For a start - they are a different race. They are not Arabs ethnically. They are semmites. The exact same race as the Jews. Numerous genetic studies have proven over and over again: the Palestinians ARE Jews, they just changed religion. They are the jews that stayed behind when the diaspora was happening.

Care to give reference to any such study?

Re: Israel abuses human rights

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh they know how evil they are. They just don't care, because in the eyes of a Jew, Jews are the master race, and have moral right to kill anyone or anything they want for their own profit. There are senior rabbis on record saying that it is morally right for them to harvest organs from Palestinian prisoners. Perhaps that's why so many of them disappear, never to be seen again.

Re: Israel abuses human rights

[silentcoder]

Google it. The university of Tel Aviv study is perhaps the most enlightening.

Re: Israel abuses human rights

[Sun]

I did. I found a few that claimed that the Jews in Europe share genetic markers, and share them with indigent residents of the middle east. I did not find anything that supports your claim that the Palestinians share genetic markers distinct from the Arabs. As such, all that proves is that the Jews do, in fact, have a historic connection to the land.

I also did not find the Tel Aviv University research you refer to.

In general, the person making the claim should also be the one providing the proof.

Re: Israel abuses human rights

[Megol]

Yeah, just ignore the Zionist terror that lead to many of the problems existing today. Both British and native Arabs were targets (also Jews that was seen as too liberal). Several terror groups had an ideology close to Nazism. The same groups e.g. killed the head of the UN at the time and participated in several terrorist attacks in other countries all over the world.

But that isn't the problem - the problem is there still are fanatics in positions of power in Israel that support this terror. Heck - several Israeli leading politicians were member of terror groups or groups that supported the terrorists! That's the problem!

Re: Israel abuses human rights

[silentcoder]

Well I dont have links for studies I read sporadically over the past two decades.

The short summarry of the Tel Aviv study however contained a line I will never forget. "With biology we have answered one of the greatest mysteries in history. What happened to the 10 lost tribes of Israel ? The answer is: they stayed right here and are known as Palestinians"

Re: Israel abuses human rights

[CronoCloud]

As for the rest of your suggestion for the Jews, my family came from Iraq. The family left there after the Iraqi government pushed the Jews out by confiscating their property. What exactly is your helpful suggestion to me?

Secularize the middle east? As long as the region is plagued with theocrats and wannabe theocrats, there are going to be problems. The very CONCEPT of a "state" favoring a religous group where everyone else is second class (or worse) is faulty.

Re: Israel abuses human rights

[CronoCloud]

and not a single true fact.

I don't know about that, I think this bit:

Think the existing Jewish Palestinians have a good life, not so much, they look entirely too Arab to ever be really accepted by the European immigrants pretending to adhere to a religion

is basically commenting about the discrimination the Mizrahi receive in Israel, which is a known thing.

Re: Israel abuses human rights

[CronoCloud]

Yeah, just ignore the Zionist terror that lead to many of the problems existing today. Both British and native Arabs were targets (also Jews that was seen as too liberal). Several terror groups had an ideology close to Nazism.

I'm aware of that. Hell...I consider Menachem Begin and Dr. Ruth Westheimer to be Terrorists! And you didn't see pressure groups telling Carter not to deal with Begin because he was a terrorist or pressure groups saying Ruth Westheimer shouldn't be on TV because....Terrorist.

Which is why I consider Netanyahu to be basically the Israeli version of an apartheid era South African leader. Which makes sense since Israel and South Africa thought of themselves in similar ways, God/G*d's Chosen People surrounded by "kaffirs" and Arabs. He uses the SAME kind of rhetoric and same kind of military/police/governmantal tactics they did. And he comes pretty darn close to calling Palestinians, "untermenschen". And the Orthodox/Haredi/Hasidic militias in the settlements are basically Brownshirts.

Re: Israel abuses human rights

[Sun]

I am half that. We had a Mizrahi president, ministers (including quite senior ones), and quite a few others. Yes, there are complaints, but to claim that they are on the verge of being kicked out is completely off the wall.

Re: Israel abuses human rights

[Sun]

Here's the thing. If you, who knows what you're looking for, cannot find it with a couple of seconds of Googling, then it is quite unfair of you to send me searching.

Like I said above, what I did find while searching was not supporting your core claim. It said some of what you claimed it said (thus my belief that I found the ones you were referring to), but not the important part to support your claim. As such, you will excuse me for not trusting your memory of research neither of us can currently find.

Shachar

Re: Israel abuses human rights

[silentcoder]

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/e...

Here you go, now that I'm not at work and have time, it took me all of 5 seconds on google to find and article that references pretty much all the research on the topic and confirms my conclusion: Palestinians are descended from the same group as Jewish people.

Re: Israel abuses human rights

[Sun]

I am assuming you meant Israel as well under that criticism, which, as I wrote in a comment to another story, I believe is unfounded. Without trying to open out that discussion, however:

Secularize the middle east?

I'm eagerly awaiting your insightful opinion as to how to do that.

Re: Israel abuses human rights

[BradMajors]

Hasbara.

Re: Israel abuses human rights

[Megol]

And not all (Jewish) Israelis support what is done in the name of Israel today.

Re: Israel abuses human rights

[Sun]

Here you go, now that I'm not at work and have time, it took me all of 5 seconds on google to find and article that references pretty much all the research on the topic and confirms my conclusion

I found no mention there of any Tel-Aviv university research. Did I miss something, or did you try to send me on a wild goose chase?

: Palestinians are descended from the same group as Jewish people.

More like "shared genes", but the distinction is not that important. Either way, that point I acknowledged three comments ago. It does not, however, get you anywhere you want to go. Your original point, however, contained an additional statement, crucial to proving your point:

They are not Arabs ethnically

Anything?

I'll also point out that, generally speaking, origin and birth (i.e. - what genealogy tests) are somewhat secondary to the question of nationality. Criteria more important is language, sense of belonging, and a common culture and goals. As such, had the Palestinians been a distinct nationality before the 20th century, you'd expect to find references to that point.

Instead, all signs point to the Palestinian nationality forming as a counter force to the Zionist movement.

Re: Israel abuses human rights

[silentcoder]

Do you think anybody on earth would deny that the Afrikaners are a distinct nation ? Do you know the history of how they became one ? The Dutch created a halfway point for trips to the east at Cape Point in 1652. Among other things they brought in a number of so-called free burghers (free citizens) to build farms there so the supply station would have something to supply.
In 1658 these folk sent a letter to the Lords 17 (the directors of the corporation) renouncing their ties to the Netherlands and declaring that they have made Africa their home and calling themselves "Afrikaanders".
From that point onward, they were a distinct nation - and they only became moreso over time, even as that nation expanded to include a large number of French refugees (the Huguenots) as well as settlers from various other European nations (most notably Germans - several Afrikaans surnames are of German origin). 300 years later, nobody has any questions about their nationhood. Some firebrand politicians question their claim to this land being their heritage, but their nationhood is never disputed.

So apparently you can become a nation in 6 years if you are white... even if your assertion is correct, why couldn't Palestinians be one in 80 years ? Every nation was once a young nation - every nation on earth was once recently-founded. People develop a shared identity and become a nation, how long ago that happened is utterly irrelevant to that question - but it has nothing to do with the point I was making anyway.
My point was that the religious/historical claim of Jews to the land of Israel is no stronger than that of the Palestinians since they clearly have equally ancient roots in the area. What they called themselves or whether they saw themselves as distinct for all that time really doesn't even come into the discussion - it just doesn't affect anything.
More importantly though - Arabs were never really one nation. The only thing they really shared was a language and a religion, but there are rather more Arab nations than there are Arab countries - and practically every sect within Islam considers themselves a seperate nation.

A lot of the problems in the Middle East have the exact same root cause as much of the problems in Africa: colonial drawn borders that were done with zero consideration for the historic borders between different nations, tribes and groups. So some nations ended up split over multiple countries, some countries ended up containing multiple (often unfriendly) nations (none of whom are ever happy with a goverment dominated by any of the others).

Now throw the usual politicking on top of that mess and you get the world today. Eritrea for example was a distinct country at least 3000 years ago. It's inhabitants are Coptic Christians who consider their brand of Christianity the oldest extant church in the world - with roots traced directly to the first church in Jerusalem and their first church established by St. Paul himself - and they are still practising the same religion. Yet Britain basically gave Eritrea to their neighbour Ethiopia for a long time. Ethiopia was very happy about this because it meant that they had a port - the Eritreans were not happy however to be ruled by a massive country with a completely different religion (Ethiopia is the birthplace of Rastafarianism) and culture and language.
Eventually in 1994 Eritrea became independent again (the last colony in Africa to regain independence) and the country is doing well. Ethiopia has been threatening to invade and conquer them ever since, which has not helped, but at least so far the international community has managed to dissuade Ethiopia from actually doing so, and ironically this appears to have benefitted both countries. Ethiopia is now the fastest growing economy in the world and will, if they can maintain what they did in the last decade, be the largest economy in Africa within 15 years surpassing both Nigeria and South Africa.
This is the same country that was the poster-child for starvation in the 1980's and early

Re: Israel abuses human rights

[gzuckier]

Hasbara.

gesundheit

Re: Israel abuses human rights

[Sun]

I'm really sorry, it is late here, and I only skimmed what you wrote. Partly it was the length, but partly because I think you think we disagree where I think we don't.

Sorry about that last sentence. Like I said, it is late here.

Out of curiosity:

So apparently you can become a nation in 6 years if you are white... even if your assertion is correct, why couldn't Palestinians be one in 80 years ?

I am really curious what made you think I disagree with that statement. Part of the problem on /. is that people don't read through the thread they participate in. Here is what I wrote, right at the start of my :

My side (the pro-Israel side) has started pushing the "Palestinians are a made up nation" narrative. I hate that narrative. Not because it is factually false, but because it is irrelevant. Whether manufactured or organically grown, whether ancient or 60 years old, the Palestinians are a nation today, and as such, their quest (such that there is) for self determination is a legitimate one.

I trust you agree?

My point was that the religious/historical claim of Jews to the land of Israel is no stronger than that of the Palestinians since they clearly have equally ancient roots in the area. What they called themselves or whether they saw themselves as distinct for all that time really doesn't even come into the discussion - it just doesn't affect anything.

There is no one saying otherwise (well, obviously, there are fanatic nutheads that do, but they are very far from being mainstream in Israel). The right to the land is not, in my eyes, due to 2000 years old divine mandate. I won't go into the entire argument (did I mention it is late?), but suffice it to say that the "the Jews stole the land" narrative has about 2% truth, and the rest is just ugly, baseless propaganda. Most of the land, at least inside the green line, where Jews live was bought from its previous owners. As usual, when you go over the green line, things become much murkier, but even there they are not as clear cut as the Palestinians would have you believe.

The same goes for the actual occupation. Very few in Israel want this situation to continue. At the moment, sadly, shifting things in any direction beside "worse" is unlikely to happen. Some of it is because Jewish fundamentalists (and a government that sits idle while they act), but some of it is definitely because of Abu Mazen and the Palestinian society.

Shachar

Re: Israel abuses human rights

[CronoCloud]

I'm not talking about Arabs in Israel proper but the the Palestinians in their own little Israeli occupied and controlled Bantustans.

And Palestinians are also Semites.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Re: Israel abuses human rights

[akayani]

Shock and Awe! A Zionist in going through comments making anything that is pro peace and resolution after 67 years of truly criminal behavior "Troll".

New headline... "Israel's IDF social media team, PAID to patrol the internet, invade Slash Dot".

Re: Israel abuses human rights

[Coren22]

You mean the land they took from the Jews originally?

Re: Israel abuses human rights

[Coren22]

What is your point, that Israel is better at defending themselves than Palestine at willy nilly launching unguided rockets into Israeli cities?

Re: Israel abuses human rights

[Coren22]

As a citizen of the US, I wonder when we will be asked to give Texas back to Mexico.

Re: Israel abuses human rights

[Some_Llama]

maybe the jews should have killed them all when they first got the land, like their God told them to, but they would rather shun God and do things according to their traditions rather than the word of God, and then bitch about the consequences...

Here's a novel idea

[Nidi62]

If you want the Palestinians to stop attacking Israelis a good step would be to stop the settlements, closely followed by not tearing down peoples' houses every time a family member commits a crime against an israeli. You are making the Palestinians not care any more. And when people don't care they will do anything.

Re: Here's a novel idea

[Anonymous Coward]

Just ban religion. Everyone would get along much better if there weren't issues with Muslims, Jews, and Christians. Just declare that part of the world a religion-free zone and people will start getting along. Sure, there's really no way to stop people from practicing religion in private, but arrest people for doing so publicly. Take religion out of the picture and people will get along a lot better in the Middle East.

Re: Here's a novel idea

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, state atheism worked so well... Typical angry nerd. Do you know your anger is funny?

Re: Here's a novel idea

[Anonymous Coward]

This was tried during the Cultural Revolution in China as well as just about every Communist country. I'm totally for it, but it's not workable. Peoples' beliefs in their magical beings of choice are very hard to get rid of, even at the state-enforcement level.

It would totally fix the problem, but no one will go along with it.

Re: Here's a novel idea

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a fact, atheists never murder. Ever. Once you become an atheist, you are an instant humanitarian overnight. What atheist person or group throughout history ever committed murder? None.

Re: Here's a novel idea

[ShanghaiBill]

Just ban religion. Everyone would get along much better if there weren't issues with Muslims, Jews, and Christians.

The conflict has little to do with religion. Palestinians have historically been largely secular, and when Israel was founded about 20% of Palestinians were Christian (although many of them have since emigrated). The Israeli settlements are mostly populated and supported by secular Jews, including immigrants from Russia and Eastern Europe who came to Israel for economic opportunity, not religion.

Re: Here's a novel idea

[alvinrod]

Banning religion wouldn't solve anything. People would simply gravitate towards other ideologies which inevitably recreate the same conflicts. Look at the growing strife between the political right and political left. There have been numerous cases of violence from members of both sides of the isle at political rallies this election cycle. The same happens between football club fans in Europe from time to time as well.

Humans are a tribal species and as long as there are multiple camps to which one can belong, we'll continue to find ourselves opposed to one and other, often with some amount of violence.

Re: Here's a novel idea

[DoofusOfDeath]

The Israeli settlements are mostly populated and supported by secular Jews, including immigrants from Russia and Eastern Europe who came to Israel for economic opportunity, not religion.

"s/economic opportunity/living space/"

Re:Here's a novel idea

[Anonymous Coward]

So settlements is the excuse now? What was the Palestinians' excuse during the 1929 Safed Riots, or the 1929 Hebron Massacre, or the 1938 Tiberias Massacre, or the 1834 Safed Massacre, or the the 1517 Safed Massacre, or the 1838 attack on Safed, or the 1834 Hebron Massacre, or the 1660 Destruction of Safed, or the 1660 Destruction of Tiberias?

All of those occurred before Israel was even formed. Between the formation of Israel and the first constructed settlement (1948-1967), there were an average of just over 3.2 attacks on civilians per year originating in the Jordan-controlled West Bank, ignoring the multiple actual wars that were started.

When Israel entirely withdrew from all Gaza settlements in 2005, they were immediately met with an increase of violence, not less.

So is there *any* reason to believe the Palestinians -- the same people who overwhelmingly support the government that holds this kind of shit at their schools -- would stop attacking civilians if the settlements are disbanded?

Fuck no. The settlements are just a convenient excuse, not that the Palestinians need one to kill teh joos.

Re: Here's a novel idea

[Kohath]

Irrelevant. There are 2 groups people fighting over the same land. Eliminate the religious difference and you still have 2 groups of people fighting over the same land.

Also extremely stupid (and/or entirely evil). How do you "ban" religion? What are you going to do to people who disobey your "ban"? Do you have some sort of camps in mind for them?

Re:Here's a novel idea

[Nidi62]

So settlements is the excuse now? What was the Palestinians' excuse during the 1929 Safed Riots, or the 1929 Hebron Massacre, or the 1938 Tiberias Massacre, or the 1834 Safed Massacre, or the the 1517 Safed Massacre, or the 1838 attack on Safed, or the 1834 Hebron Massacre, or the 1660 Destruction of Safed, or the 1660 Destruction of Tiberias?

All of those occurred before Israel was even formed. Between the formation of Israel and the first constructed settlement (1948-1967), there were an average of just over 3.2 attacks on civilians per year originating in the Jordan-controlled West Bank, ignoring the multiple actual wars that were started.

When Israel entirely withdrew from all Gaza settlements in 2005, they were immediately met with an increase of violence, not less.

So is there *any* reason to believe the Palestinians -- the same people who overwhelmingly support the government that holds this kind of shit at their schools -- would stop attacking civilians if the settlements are disbanded?

Fuck no. The settlements are just a convenient excuse, not that the Palestinians need one to kill teh joos.

Probably just in retaliation for the Israelites' conquering of Canaan. You know, where they enslaved their allies and slaughtered every man, woman, and child in Jericho.

Re: Here's a novel idea

[CronoCloud]

including immigrants from Russia and Eastern Europe who came to Israel for economic opportunity, not religion.

And almost all those russian and Eastern European jews were Hasidic/Haredi/Orthodox, who swelled the numbers of Likud, who then sabotaged the peace process by doing everything they could do undermine Fatah.

Then they could point to Hamas taking over as "see? All the Palestinians are terrorists who want to obliterate Israel, they elected Hamas!"

Re: Here's a novel idea

[Anonymous Coward]

No, 99% of all violence by political groups in the U.S. are and have always been from the left -- definitely from the 1960's on including all of the violence towards blacks in the 60's which was all from Democrats and KKK which was formed to be the militant arm of the Democratic Party in the South.

Or as the Dilbert Zone's Scott Adams pointed out in his blog if you look at the statistics Democrats use guns overwhelmingly to kill each other and innocents while Republicans use them overwhelmingly for sport and to protect themselves from Democrats.

If you look at the political leanings of mass shooters when they have a political persuasion over 90% have been Democrats.

Basically, leftists have been and always are violent because their political beliefs feed their anger and their self-righteousness at being better than those on the right give so many leftists the conviction others deserve what they get. Just look at how badly Bernie Sanders supporters have been beating on very peaceful men and women at Trump rallies.

You, the left is extremely violent compared to the right as defined on the U.S.

Re:Here's a novel idea

[phozz bare]

If you want the Palestinians to stop attacking Israelis a good step would be to stop the settlements

The Palestinians attacked Israelis as a matter of course long before any settlement existed. What makes you think they will stop if they were gone?
(Hint: Removing all settlements from Gaza only made matters far, far worse.)

Re:Here's a novel idea

[St.Creed]

To discuss "The Palestinians" in the context of the ancient history is rather farfetched - under the Ottoman empire it is difficult to say whether the Palestinians identified themselves as Palestinians . Going into detail on your examples, Safed 1517 seems to be a case of anti-semitism during wartime, in the case of 1660 Tiberias/Safed it was the Druze who attacked, for reasons not immediately apparent. In modern times, Druze do not identify as Palestinians. Hebron 1834... was a case of a day of rape and pillage by an army after a 5 months siege, in which there were a grand total of 12 casualties. Calling that a massacre seems more a propaganda piece than a massacre. especially as the Arab population suffered over 500 casualties during that same day. But they don't really count in your examples, do they?

The 1929 riots are more interesting. To quote wikipedia: "The Shaw Commission found that the fundamental cause of the violence "without which in our opinion disturbances either would not occurred or would not have been little more than a local riot, is the Arab feeling of animosity and hostility towards the Jews consequent upon the disappointment of their political and national aspirations and fear for their economic future."[ It also attributed the cause as being Arab fears of Jewish immigrants "not only as a menace to their livelihood but as a possible overlord of the future."

With the benefit of hindsight we might say they had a point.

When Israel entirely withdrew from all Gaza settlements in 2005, they were immediately met with an increase of violence, not less.

Is that so strange? It is quite obvious to all involved why Israel withdrew: it would make it possible to stall peace negotiations for much longer, it would bottle the Palestines up in West Gaza, a much smaller area than the original plans show, and holding the settlements was politically impossible if Israel wanted to keep up relations with the rest of the world. This was realized by the Palestines as well.

So is there *any* reason to believe the Palestinians -- the same people who overwhelmingly support the government that holds this kind of shit [youtube.com] at their schools -- would stop attacking civilians if the settlements are disbanded?

There are loads of reasons to think that the attacks will *never* stop until the settlements are disbanded, for several reasons.
1) the settlers are responsible for a lot of violence themselves. They are a huge part of the problem as they depend economically on the conflict. They do not want peace and do everything possible to stir up trouble. Shutting down the settlements would be a very small first step in normalizing the situation.
2) the settlements use up a lot of water which is scarce in the area. They are connected by roads that the rest of the inhabitants are barred from even crossing, and occupy strategic areas with fertile lands.
3) It is a visible reminder of the fact the population is controlled by outside soldiers.
Removing the settlements won't stop the attacks on civilians (although it will stop attacks on settlements), but it is at least a start towards a solution.

As for Hamas, yeah, they're wankers. It's not as if Israeli politicians are immune to the hatred though: rabbi Dov Lior (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dov_Lior) is at least as big a wanker as any member of Hamas.

Re:Here's a novel idea

[Rockoon]

The Palestinians attacked Israelis as a matter of course long before any settlement existed.

Ah yes that faithful day when Britain so charitably handed the equipment that just won WWII to the minority Israel population. How the Israeli's trembled in fear at only having the best military equipment ever made and used it to immediately and forcibly evict non-jews from what the U.N. decided was Jewish land. Israel has literally been resettling Palestinians since day #1.

Its no surprise that the day the minority got military control they immediately started a campaign against the majority.

Regardless of the past, Palestinian children are born into and condemned to live in an open air prison run by the Israelis and this has been true for more than a generation. Until this fact changes there is no moral refuge to be found in the ill deeds of the Palestinians, for their deeds are Israels doings.

Re: Here's a novel idea

[Kjella]

Irrelevant. There are 2 groups people fighting over the same land. Eliminate the religious difference and you still have 2 groups of people fighting over the same land.

Without religion there's a good chance they'd make some kind of peace and get over it. Like Germany started a few world wars but now 70 years later it's pretty much all history. The conflicts that last centuries where one people hates the other usually involve religion, because shit like that is the main reason to hate persons that never did anything to you personally. Maybe my ancestors did some bad shit to your ancestors but inherited sin is bullshit. In Christianity and in general.

Re: Here's a novel idea

[Rambles]

I'll just give you the benefit of the doubt that your first few sentences are not total nonsense, and that the incredibly fake statistics you cite (or don't?) are real. I feel compelled to translate your rantings that come at the end. -"Just look at how badly Bernie Sanders supporters have been beating on very peaceful men and women at Trump rallies." I don't find it so far fetched that someone who knows nothing of Bernie Sanders would label him as a democrat. I would wager that when you say that Bernie Sanders supporters are beating on Trump supporters, you are referring to the groups of people that are paid to say they support someone and cause violence to further the agenda of their employer. Of course, when you say "very peaceful men and women at Trump rallies" You are referring to the group of people who supports someone who intends to round up and label all Muslims, mostly because they "are all terrorists" right? The same group of people that Trump said he would pay legal fees for when they acted violently against people who disagree too loudly at his rallies? It's okay to be mistaken, it happens to a lot of people. The danger begins at the very instant your words become poisonous misinformation under the guise of fact.

Re:Here's a novel idea

[phozz bare]

Everything you have written is a lie. The Brits handed equipment? Evictions? Resettlings..!? The day "the minority got military control"? An open air prison? What parallel universe are you living in?
Sorry, but Arabs have been butchering Jews at every opportunity for centuries. This started long before Israel was created, even long before Britain was even in the picture. You are clueless.

Re:Here's a novel idea

[Dog-Cow]

Arab behavior started long before the settlements and long before the policy of demolishing homes. Arabs are sore losers, and that underlies every single Arab- conflict in history. Their religion just makes it worse, but a secular Arab can be brought to the same destination, same as any Maoist or die-hard Communist.

Re:Here's a novel idea

[Dog-Cow]

Violations of International Law only matter when Israel is the violator. When Arabs do it (hi there, Morocco), it's perfectly OK. When a favored-status trading partner does it (hi, China!), it's OK. When Israel does it to territory captured in a war, it's suddenly the root of all evil.

Somehow, I don't buy it. The Arab-Israeli conflict is predicated on the Arab's inability to accept loss to a Jew. That's it. Nothing else matters.

Re: Here's a novel idea

[transami]

Why is it that the pro-Israeli side of this debate never show any empathy for the Palestinians? You accuse others of not carrying about the Jews when they never said anything of the sort. But you have no quibble with wishing this persons children dead?

Re: Here's a novel idea

[transami]

s/carrying/caring/

Re:Here's a novel idea

[Richard_at_work]

You do realise that "International Law" does not recognise "territory captured in a war", right? Been that way since before Israel was created by the UN...

Re: Here's a novel idea

[silentcoder]

>To the Palestinian yes, but isn't the basis of the establishment of israeli settlement is that on their magic book, they are the rightful owner of the land, since their $deity told them so?

Except of course that gene studies have proven that the Palestinian people are the descendents of the Jews who stayed behind during the diaspora (contrary to the folktales of European Jews - a lot of them had not left). They changed religion over the centuries, but they are the same people. If the magic book was to be the guideline their claim would be STRONGER since they are the SAME people it was promised to - and they are the ones who never abandoned it.

Granted, this was not even a theory in 1948, we didn't have gene studies then and nobody believe the local records. But we know better today.

Re:Here's a novel idea

[silentcoder]

Neither. They are the descendants of Jews who stayed behind during the diaspora.

Re:Here's a novel idea

[silentcoder]

>There never was a country called Palestine in history

Erm... yes there was. It existed until 1948 (for the last part of it's existence it was a British colony).

There is also such a country today. It consists of the West Bank and Gaza Strip and it's capital city is Jerusalem. This was recognized by the world at large as a de facto country when they were granted membership of the UN in 2012. Israel is illegally occupying land that is officially considered a different country by virtually all the governments of the world.

That is actually rather important. A key reason appartheid failed is because the "countries" it created for black people (the so-called homeland states) were never recognized as independent countries by the UN or any other countries. The lack of international recognition was a flat-out refusal to accept these forced resettlement locations as a human rights compliant policy and these puppet-states as "giving people their own country". The inverse is also true. When the world recognizes a country as existing, it exists and if a different government is occupying it that is an act of war.

Re:Here's a novel idea

[Megol]

Racism is racism no matter the direction of it.

The facts are that Israel (the state - not every Israeli) support illegal construction of frontier camps and even uses it as a political weapon. I don't know what illegal Palestinian construction you are talking about but I don't think you are wrong - however that is an internal problem for the Palestinian government to handle and not breaking international law.

Israel have in several documented cases razed homes of people that doesn't support terrorism, in some even for people not even related to the alleged terrorist.

Re: Here's a novel idea

[gzuckier]

Irrelevant. There are 2 groups people fighting over the same land. Eliminate the religious difference and you still have 2 groups of people fighting over the same land.

Also extremely stupid (and/or entirely evil). How do you "ban" religion? What are you going to do to people who disobey your "ban"? Do you have some sort of camps in mind for them?

before the american revolution connecticut and pennsylvania were in a shooting war over the region around wilkes barre which england had promised to both. these things were pretty common in the aftermath of colonialism.

Re:Here's a novel idea

[gzuckier]

You do realise that "International Law" does not recognise "territory captured in a war", right? Been that way since before Israel was created by the UN...

it does recognize military occupation of a belligerent population, though.
arguably, had israel in fact just actually annexed the territories in 67 nobody would have cared outside the Arab countries which were already determined to smash Israel, and by now it would all be behind us, a new generation would have grown up on either side, and things would not be frozen in this feedback loop.
instead, jingoistic zealots on both sides get their energy from the continuing hostilities and whip up sentiment demanding retribution which renews the status quo and feeds more power to those same zealots. the conflict is more truly between the rabble rousers on both sides versus those on both sides who are willing to start anew than it is between the two nationalities.
as a model, look at this comments column, which instantly becomes a compendium of each side proclaiming the other side's list of crimes, which implicitly means moving forward is impossible without appropriate punishment. which, understandably, the opposing side does not agree to.
and the article isn't even about the conflict except tangentially. if it's that hard to avoid falling into this pit of mutual incrimination how can any solution be found?

Re:Here's a novel idea

[gzuckier]

>There never was a country called Palestine in history

Erm... yes there was. It existed until 1948 (for the last part of it's existence it was a British colony).

There is also such a country today. It consists of the West Bank and Gaza Strip and it's capital city is Jerusalem. This was recognized by the world at large as a de facto country when they were granted membership of the UN in 2012. Israel is illegally occupying land that is officially considered a different country by virtually all the governments of the world.

That is actually rather important. A key reason appartheid failed is because the "countries" it created for black people (the so-called homeland states) were never recognized as independent countries by the UN or any other countries. The lack of international recognition was a flat-out refusal to accept these forced resettlement locations as a human rights compliant policy and these puppet-states as "giving people their own country". The inverse is also true. When the world recognizes a country as existing, it exists and if a different government is occupying it that is an act of war.

arguably, a key reason Palestine failed it because it was never recognized as independent countries by Jordan and Egypt, not to mention all the other Arab countries, but rather immediately annexed by them as part of their territory. As a result, there were a couple of consequences; firstly, for Israel to unilaterally undo the internationally accepted annexation, declare the territory captured in 1967 liberated from Jordan and Egypt, and declare the new country of Palestine would be somewhat troublesome in international law.
secondly the apparatus of government, both explicit and implicit things like a de facto civil contract between the government and the population never arose, leaving a couple of junior size failed states; so that when Egypt and Jordan did eventually drop their claims to the West Bank and Gaza, late in the game, the sole focus of the governments on either side was conflict with Israel, rather than boring things like keeping the streets clean. and as the PA adapted to the role of civil servant rather than revolutionary, those who got bored with that formed Hamas. (yeah i know, the israelis supported hamas as a thorn in the PAs side. see my previous post about warmongers on both sides being in collusion to keep their power over their relative populations).

Re:Here's a novel idea

[gzuckier]

If you want the Palestinians to stop attacking Israelis a good step would be to stop the settlements

The Palestinians attacked Israelis as a matter of course long before any settlement existed. What makes you think they will stop if they were gone? (Hint: Removing all settlements from Gaza only made matters far, far worse.)

yeah, but... even stipulating all the list of crimes of Palestinians, individual and as a group; even stipulating that the Israelis were entirely innocent of all evil intent and acting only in self defense; even stipulating the existential threat to israel from the panArab and Islamist movements; even stipulating everything bad on the Palestine side posed against everything good on the Israeli side; what part of that suggests "therefore, the best thing to do is move some israeli civilians into the middle of the Palestinian population, in gated enclaves guarded by the military"
no matter how much i grind that through in my mind, I can't find any way that this doesn't make things worse, let alone where it is a clever response to a terrible situation. you can argue morality all day and night because it's individual, you can argue about who's most guilty, but i don't see any way where you can argue with any rational logic whatsoever that the settlements are of any benefit whatsoever, except to those (on both sides) whose political power comes from continued conflict.

Re:Here's a novel idea

[gzuckier]

The Palestinians attacked Israelis as a matter of course long before any settlement existed.

Ah yes that faithful day when Britain so charitably handed the equipment that just won WWII to the minority Israel population. How the Israeli's trembled in fear at only having the best military equipment ever made and used it to immediately and forcibly evict non-jews from what the U.N. decided was Jewish land. Israel has literally been resettling Palestinians since day #1. Its no surprise that the day the minority got military control they immediately started a campaign against the majority. Regardless of the past, Palestinian children are born into and condemned to live in an open air prison run by the Israelis and this has been true for more than a generation. Until this fact changes there is no moral refuge to be found in the ill deeds of the Palestinians, for their deeds are Israels doings.

oh please, how old are you? as with any events which shaped history and thought, those who grew up in the current era have difficulty trying to replicate the thinking that prevailed before the events in question. in 1948, military victory of Israel was far from a sure thing, i fact arguably the smart money was betting they would be swamped. certainly, that was the thinking of the arab nations.
and similarly in 1967. the idea that israel wanted territorial expansion is a fiction countering the fact that at the time, they weren't sure they would prevail then either. it was only after 1967 this image of the invulnerable israeli military took hold, not as a function of israel receiving " the equipment that just won WWII "

Re: Here's a novel idea

[SuricouRaven]

It might be more accurate to say that religion amplifies a conflict that would exist regardless.

Re: Here's a novel idea

[SuricouRaven]

And if you go back further, we should all be entitled to live in Africa.

I don't think that the residence of a person's great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfather* should be a factor in deciding how to treat them today. For the better or the worse.

*It should be a lot more grates, but I got bored of typing.

Re:Here's a novel idea

[SuricouRaven]

Is there any land outside of the unliveable polar regions that has never, at any point in history, been captured in war? That's just how it works: You fight, you win, you claim land. People complains, but in about two centuries everyone forgets about the capture and accepts that the new map is the way it should be, and a lot of people forget it was ever any other way.

Re:Here's a novel idea

[gzuckier]

Everything you have written is a lie. The Brits handed equipment? Evictions? Resettlings..!? The day "the minority got military control"? An open air prison? What parallel universe are you living in? Sorry, but Arabs have been butchering Jews at every opportunity for centuries. This started long before Israel was created, even long before Britain was even in the picture. You are clueless.

open air prison pictures:
Palestinian parliament https://i.guim.co.uk/img/stati...
http://www.whyisrael.org/wp-co...
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c6/Bank_Of_Palestine_-_Ramallah.jpg
https://static-secure.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2010/11/1/1288603238635/M-venpick-hotel-in-Ramall-006.jpg
http://www.jerusalemdiaries.com/photos/large/204.jpg
http://www.pamolson.org/IMG_0376.jpg
proposed palestinian presidential palace http://cdn.timesofisrael.com/u...

Re: Here's a novel idea

[gzuckier]

No, 99% of all violence by political groups in the U.S. are and have always been from the left -- definitely from the 1960's on including all of the violence towards blacks in the 60's which was all from Democrats and KKK which was formed to be the militant arm of the Democratic Party in the South.

Or as the Dilbert Zone's Scott Adams pointed out in his blog if you look at the statistics Democrats use guns overwhelmingly to kill each other and innocents while Republicans use them overwhelmingly for sport and to protect themselves from Democrats.

If you look at the political leanings of mass shooters when they have a political persuasion over 90% have been Democrats.

Basically, leftists have been and always are violent because their political beliefs feed their anger and their self-righteousness at being better than those on the right give so many leftists the conviction others deserve what they get. Just look at how badly Bernie Sanders supporters have been beating on very peaceful men and women at Trump rallies.

You, the left is extremely violent compared to the right as defined on the U.S.

yes, the violence against blacks in the 60s was from the left. good call there, lots of people never figured that out, i bet.
i suppose timothy mcveigh, too.
lethal rightwing terrorist incidents in the United States since 9/11/2001, and number killed
2015 Colorado Planned Parenthood Shooting 3
2015 Charleston Church Shooting 9
2014 Las Vegas Police Ambush 3
2014 Kansas Jewish Center Shooting 3
2014 Blooming Grove Police Shooting 1
2012 Tri-State Killing Spree 4
2012 St. John's Parish Police Ambush 2
2012 Sikh Temple Shooting 6
2011 FEAR Militia 3
2010 Carlisle, PA Murder 1
2010 Austin, TX Plane Attack 1
2009 Pittsburgh Police Shootings 3
2009 Holocaust Museum Shooting 1
2009 George Tiller Assassination 1
2009 Flores Murders, Pima County, AZ 2
2009 Brockton, MA Murders 2
2008 Knoxville, TN Church Shooting 2
2004 Tulsa OK, Bank Robbery 1

Re: Here's a novel idea

[shutdown -p now]

Most Russian/Soviet Jews are borderline atheist, not Orthodox.

Re: Here's a novel idea

[silentcoder]

I don't think so either - frankly I think everybody has a right to live where-ever they want and ALL immigration laws are a flagrant violation of universal human rights since they all, by definition, act against basic rights of freedom of movement and freedom of association.

But the reality is that the people in this mess do believe that heritage determines a right to live somewhere (both sides) and to ignore that is just plain futile.

If nothing else, where you are born SHOULD count - and that means pretty much all of them have an equal say now.

Not to mention that there are distinct problems with your thinking so I don't accept it entirely. For a start it massively benefits those who happen to descent from the last major round of conquest, to the detriment of everybody else, and offers no route to a more equitable world. We decided in the recent path that conquest was not actually an acceptable way to acquire land. Conveniently this was decided by the same people who did the last round of conquering, and so made sure nobody could take what they had conquered away from them. Everybody else got screwed. For the most part - they are still screwed. This is not a stable situation, it is, in fact, a situation that will lead to ongoing violence, unrest and bloodshed. Fixing it isn't just a moral imperative, it's a survival strategy.

Re:Here's a novel idea

[silentcoder]

>As a result, there were a couple of consequences; firstly, for Israel to unilaterally undo the internationally accepted annexation, declare the territory captured in 1967 liberated from Jordan and Egypt, and declare the new country of Palestine would be somewhat troublesome in international law

Since the UN general council overwhelmingly voted to accept Palestine's membership - which de facto recognizes it as an independent country - I doubt you will see any major attempts to push that angle and if anybody did try to push it - it is unlikely it would succeed since there is overwhelming international agreement that their independence is recognized. One the list of countries not recognizing it the US is literally the only one of any significance (and when the US is the only significant country doing something- invariably it's because it's doing something terrible).

No successful modern state has built itself up out of the rubble of war. Every one that did - had huge help from other states. Look at how much money the US spent in Japan and Germany to rebuild these countries after world war 2. Look at the fortune loaned to Britain for their rebuilding, which was only paid off about 3 years ago. So I think it is understood that a Palestinian country would need international assistance to get to a working state, I think the countries that voted them into the council knows this and are prepared to contribute.
A more interesting question is militarily. The current Israeli administration would never do it, but let's assume a future Israeli administration is less fundamentalist and goes for it. This is not that unlikely - 90% of American Jews under 30 are anti-zionist today and strongly critical of Israel, the same pattern is happening elsewhere - I have a very large Jewish friend circle and I don't know a single Jew who is not anti-zionist, in fact they all belong to BDS ! So a similar shift in Israel's own voting patterns is at least a conceivable possibility over time.
But what happens next ? What happens if the next government is determined to get the west bank and gaza back ? Radical shifts in elections tend to be followed by equally radically shifts in the opposite direction - so this too is likely. For a Palestinian state to survive in the medium term, it would need defence capabilities that would make an invasion sufficiently risky to make it highly unlikely - even for the American armed Israeli forces.
At the same time - establishing such a military in the new state would make it less likely to get the state in the first place. Not even the most liberal Israeli government would agree to establish a Palestine with sufficient military capability to represent an existential threat to themselves.

So the only possibility would be for a Palestine to get not only significant financial assistance from other countries but also defence agreements - foreign countries committing themselves to defending it if it's invaded so that it doesn't need it's own military.

Do that for 30 years or so and it will be new normal, and it could be a long term stable setup.

Re: Here's a novel idea

[Coren22]

Why is it that the pro-Palestinian side of this debate never show any empathy for the Palestinians? You accuse others of not caring about the Palestinians when they never said anything of the sort. But you have no quibble wishing this person's children dead?

The Palestinians launch unguided rockets into civilian filled cities. They lost all sympathy when they allowed that to happen from mosques, hospitals, schools, homes, etc.

No justice, no peace.

[Anonymous Coward]

End the siege of Gaza.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2008/12/gaza-reduced-bare-survival-20081205/
Give back the Palestinians their land as mandated in UN Resolution 242. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_242
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2008/08/trapped-collective-punishment-gaza-20080812/
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2008/08/trapped-collective-punishment-gaza-20080812/
Let Palestinians have the same rights as Israelis.End the first class citizen/second class citizen power structure. Free Palestinian children from jails. Injustice begets extremism and as long as Israelis play 'master race' over an oppressed peoples, this will never end. Give back the Palestinians their land, rights, and dignity.

Re:No justice, no peace.

[Anonymous Coward]

You know Gaza borders on Egypt too, right? So why aren't you just trying to convince Egypt to support the Palestinians?

Is it because you don't really care about Gazans and you just want a reason to hate Israel, or because you recognize that Egypt wants nothing to do with them because they're run by terrorists?

You see, the people of Gaza are being held hostage by their own government. Unfortunately they have developed Stockholm Syndrome, so they keep electing terrorists to hold themselves hostage.

It's not like Israel decided they hated Palestinians so they blockaded Gaza, forcing Gaza to lob rockets at them. In reality, Israel was tired of getting rockets lobbed at them, so they put up a blockade to prevent them from getting more rockets.

The way to end the "siege" is to give up their weapons and release their hostages. If they stop trying to smuggle in rockets, there will no longer be a need for a blockade.

dom

Re: No justice, no peace.

[Anonymous Coward]

if they just wanted weapons to protect their own borders, that'd be fine, but you put a weapon in gaza and it will invariably be pointed toward and fired at israel.

the only time that they aren't shooting their weapons into israel, is when they're stockpiling weapons to shoot into israel, or they've run out of weapons.

self defense is fine, aggression is not.

Re:No justice, no peace.

[R3d M3rcury]

Free Palestinian children from jails.

You mean, Let my people go? Or maybe Let my people go-go?

Re:No justice, no peace.

[nassarmu]

Gaza borders Egypt, but the border is still part of the "Buffer Zone" and legal crossing are still mediated by Israeli Border Police

see:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

As for being held hostage, that is a strange way to look at it. How about we place a border around whatever city you live in? yes you still have a mayor and government representation but they didn't put the border up, Does that mean that you are being held as a hostage by them? at least you, presumably, have the right to leave if you so chose, they don't. And why would you leave your house/land/job/family? why would they? why should they?

As for electing terrorists, Hamas is a political party with a militant wing; but they also have built up an extensive network of social and civic services(schools, clinics, day care centers, etc) a network that the previous Fatah led government was unable or unwilling to provide, probably due to rampant corruption. As an atheist i am against any and all mixing of religion and government (something that i would most likely not be at liberty to say in Gaza). I also recognize that in a two party system you often end up electing the lesser of two evils, and at the time Hamas must have seemed like the more capable governing force.

And with regards to Israel deciding that they hated Palestinians... that is very much the case. Long before the recent violence, Long before the Intifadas, even before Hamas was as significant player, Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza strip lived as second class citizens under Israeli occupation. Schools, medical centers, civil and social services were underfunded and understaffed, they were taxed without representation, local elections were either deferred indefinitely or otherwise rigged, local industry was suppressed.(sounds like conditions in the 13 colonies in 1775). I was there, i saw, i experienced. I have felt the hatred.

Re: No justice, no peace.

[Dog-Cow]

When a garden has a few weeds, you pull them out. When a garden has a lot of weeds, or when the weeds are too persistent, you mow everything down, dig out the roots, plow the remainder under, and start over. The Arabs are the weeds. I'll leave it to others to decide where along the garden spectrum they lie at this point.

Re:No justice, no peace.

[Dog-Cow]

Someone has inserted a German history text into your rant notes. You'd better take care of that.

Re:No justice, no peace.

[Dog-Cow]

The Egyptian border crossing is entirely controlled by Egypt. Israel has nothing to do with it. After that 100% falsehood, I am sure the rest of your words are similarly truth-free.

He's right

[Anonymous Coward]

As Americans it's difficult to view any abridgement of speech as unacceptable. But this is a country in basically a war zone and with a different perspective on how their country should be governed to ensure its survival.

Facebook should "pull out" of Israel and most of the Middle East. Ironically, given that the core tenet of the internet is to work around damage, this case would be pretty simple to do. Just block an entire country's IP and in the case of VPNed access, use the social graph to detect Israelies and ban their accounts.

It's a great example of how scary data gathering is because Facebook really does know everything about you. There's no hiding in their world and they can use that data against you in any way they wish.

Just go look for yourself

[ITRambo]

Israel is upset that Facebook didn't spy for them? State's have their own spy organizations that do that stuff. Get off your asses and go look for yourself to see what's posted. Why would any country expect a foreign organization to do their work for them? That's outlandish and pretty damn lazy.

Re:Just go look for yourself

[Stan92057]

No actually Israel and many other countrys are mad FB and many other web sites don't actively enforce its very own TOS. relying 100% on members to report violations instead of looking for them themselves. They "Facebook" have just about every algorithm data mining for adverting purposes buy not a dime towards say finding nude images. They get taking down because some member seen and reported the nude image. its a legitimate complaint IMO.

Re:Kind of hard to do technically

[fustakrakich]

Can I shout FIRE! in a crowded internet?

Easy solution

[Rick Zeman]

"Hey Facebook, that Palestinian is pro-gun!" and they'll lock him down really fast.

Romanes Eunt Domus

[CortxVortx]

People called Romanes they go the house!

free palestine

[Anonymous Coward]

gosh what do you know, when you fuck people over sometimes they get mad and try to fight back.

Re:free palestine

[Dog-Cow]

Free Palestine? I'll take two!

Re: free palestine

[Dog-Cow]

Words mean things. Words of even a single letter are important, even in English.

There is a huge difference between the following two sentences. Your (purposeful) conflation of the two suggests that you are an idiot and bigot of the highest orders.

Palestinians are not proper people

Palestinians are not a proper people

Re:Eyeballs, censorship, media pollution, and SYE

[shanen]

So there. It was tough, but I managed to avoid the long-comment penalty. Resulting terseness may be hard to follow, but feel free to ask for clarification, eh?

Same old same old

[Nethead]

And don't let the kids listen to any of that boogie-woogie music! Gives them bad ideas.

(((Hillary Clinton)))

[PopeRatzo]

It'll be OK when Trump is president because he loves the Jews and Israel.

http://time.com/4392387/donald...

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the...

http://www.politicususa.com/20...

Re:(((Hillary Clinton)))

[clonehappy]

An anti-Muslim "comedian" on Twitter originally posted that image on 16/06/15. It didn't get picked up by "anti-semite websites" until a week later.

http://www.mndailynews.com/tre...

Grasping at straws, man.

Re:(((Hillary Clinton)))

[PopeRatzo]

An anti-Muslim "comedian" on Twitter originally posted that image on 16/06/15. It didn't get picked up by "anti-semite websites" until a week later.

Wait, so you're saying it went from an "anti-Muslim comedian" to the anti-semitic message board to Donald Trump's twitter feed and you think that makes it OK for the Trump campaign? Who the fuck does Donald let post on his Twitter feed? I thought he hired only the "best people".

How the fuck is Donald getting memes from anti-semitic websites unless he or one of his assistants is going to those sites?

Re:Israeli Intelligence Cannot Monitor Facebook?

[PopeRatzo]

Israeli intelligence *is* Facebook. Who do you think Zuckerbergsteingoldfarbenmann is loyal to? The question is why this public rabble-rousing, must be some subterfuge taking place they want to distract from.

Trump 2016

Zuck is god

[Vinegar Joe]

Or thinks he is. FB will shutdown your account in a second if a female nipple is seen.

Re:Ah

[CronoCloud]

No, they're not. They're just engaging in Aggresive apartheid.

And the Palestinians are too STUPID and full of ANGER to try passive resistance, which plays right into the Theocrats and near fascists of Likud's hands

That's right Palestians, every time you blow up a bus or whatever you let the Israels pull the Holocaust Martyr card. And the West, for good reason, still feels guilty about that.

Re:On the other hand

[johanw]

Mostly on pressure from jews in the US who apparently have a huge voting and bribing capacity. The same mechanism that has prevented normal relations between the US and Cuba for decades.

Am I missing something?

[JThundley]

Am I missing something from the summary? Israel's Minister of Internal Security said that a murder could have been prevented if Facebook told them about somebody's post, and now they're pushing for laws that make Facebook take down posts they don't like. How are the 2 related? How does the power to take down posts help them identify hateful posts?

Facebook ignores reports of Hate Speech

[Anonymous Coward]

I've run across countless Anti-Israel and Anti-Jewish pages on Facebook that clearly spread racism and incited people to commit violent acts against Israel and Jews in general. Ever single time I've reported such pages for violating Facebook's terms and conditions Facebook ended up doing nothing.

We aren't talking about Freedom of Speech here. We are talking about Hate Speech that clearly violates the Terms of Use of a private website. Facebook is free to lie but the numbers don't lie: the site is popular propaganda center for Extremist Islam which goes on to commit terrorist attacks.

Facebook can and should do more. Ever if you forget about Facebook proactively seeking to moderate, it should at the very least shut down these pages when they are reported by users.

Who cares

[axewolf]

The state of israel is a bone that was thrown to greedy dogs who could never maintain their own country even with big brothers Great Britain and the USA fixing everything they screw up. Let it die, stop talking about it, it doesn't matter. The arabs will eviscerate that country and no one can stop it in the modern world. Let the tide of karma wash over a corrupt nation of corrupt people.

Bury this please

[youngone]

I'm kind of hoping this comment gets buried because of the flamewar in this thread, but here goes. I have no sympathy for Facebook really, but in my opinion they should respond in the same way ICANN responded in the next story down

ICANN is neither "required or qualified" to pass judgment in such cases...

Facebook is neither "required or qualified" to be pro-active in seeking out offending content...

In other words, tell them to get stuffed. If Facebook engages with these arseholes, they'll always want more.

No one likes Israel

[axewolf]

Get over it

Re:No one likes Israel

[Chrisq]

Like it or not, Israel is the frontier on the fight between freedom, liberty and democracy, and Sharia law.

Re:No one likes Israel

[axewolf]

You're totally insane by indoctrination.

Sharia law is freedom. Democracy is enslavement.
There is no freedom without an external structure to repel the elements and allow the inside to act according to will instead of reacting to force.
Democracy does not offer freedom when its participants exert no free will and in general are totally insane (their habits are counter to their instincts).

Freedom and liberty....feeling patriotic today? You couldn't describe a difference between the two. You don't know what freedom or liberty mean to begin with.

You stupid fucking old men think you have a right to an opinion because you've sat around rotting and collecting money for so many years. Critical thought and courage earn the right to an opinion, nothing else. You're cowards, through and through. You aren't even human.

Re:Israel abuses human rights (so death to jews?)

[Dog-Cow]

Arabs don't believe that the lives of Arab children are worth anything. What sense is there in valuing their lives more than they themselves?

Still waiting for an OT post

[cellocgw]

Anyone care to talk about the content of the FB posts that the Israeli gov't is complaining about?

I see a lot of factionist rants and blatant exaggerations from all 8 or 9 sides in the religio-social wars going on in the Middle East, but nothing about the actual topic.

For that matter, how would everyone react if Palestine demanded that FB delete all pro-Israeli posts?

Re:Still waiting for an OT post

[akayani]

Nothing comes close to the Zionists bad behavior on Facebook. I've seen them...

Attack a Muslim girl and joke about sticking an icepole into her private parts for days using the most 'colorful language'.
Abuse on mass Stephen William Hawking for taking a stand on the academic boycott.
Take what they learned about people going to Palestine to ensure they get the gloved hand shoved up them at BG airport.
In the case of Mohammed Abu Khdeir the 16 yo that the settlers poured petrol down his throat and set on fire, they claimed he was a "gay prostitute that was burned by his family".
When the attack on the flotilla occurred they edited video (baddly) to change the narrative in their favor.
When the American International School in Gaza that the international community built to give hope to people at a cost of $1.4 million was bombed to dust for no reason they claimed it was a weapons store.
Abused holocaust survivors like Hepy Epstein who recently pass away after a lifetime of fighting for justice on many fronts
Created a fake gay boy who made claims he was banned from being on the flotilla.

I've been following Palestinians on Facebook since 2006. Everyone I know who has been on the side of the Palestinian has burned at least 3 Facebook accounts so far. Those turds created a fake me then used that account to abuse my Palestinian friends. When I complained to Facebook, Facebook deleted my account and left the imposter in place for 2 months.

It's not limited to Facebook. When Greta Berlin published the her story of the early Gaza flotillas that did make it, 30 Zionists wrote one star abusive reviews on a book they didn't read on Amazon. That was a result of what was intended to be a mutual shared space on Facebook.

What the Zionist behaviors have done is create a situation where neither Palestinians or their friends will have them in our groups. And to protect our Facebook accounts we have block all contact with Zionists.

They have redefined antisemite to "anyone who objects to the brutalization of people in Palestine". Even the Jewish Voice of Peace have been called antisemites.

The Zionists are in lar lar land. If they keep pushing people then the result will be an open source distributed version of social media. Something like a series of connected but independent drupalish network that is immune to their power plays. What the Zionist have done is a service to the Palestinian community on Facebook. They have increased the resolve of people to see their fascist state removed from the world map.

But we always treat them with good humor. In fact we are laughing our arses off.

This one is a classic... https://youtu.be/ME_NpnH7jDc

What has been created in the Palestinian social media space is an international training ground for all activists. All we need to do now is end the conflict and release those that have been participating for 10+years onto other issues of human rights abuse. The Zionists have created experts within the opposing side in social media engagement. They have done the world a great service. We just need the fascism to end so it can be deployed against other abusers.

If you can solve the issues of 67 years of oppression in Palestine you can solve any issue.

Aside... I have to say that it has been a long time coming to have this discussion on Slashdot. Now that this discussion has started those Zionist abusenauts will be further exposed not by what I say but by their own actions.

Re:Still waiting for an OT post

[akayani]

See their 'good work' on youtube...

Gaza flotilla video mashup: Internet Killed Israeli PR
The following content has been identified by the YouTube community as being potentially inappropriate. Viewer discretion is advised.

https://youtu.be/ME_NpnH7jDc

They are a JOKE!

Re:Kind of hard to do technically

[silentcoder]

Can I shout "Theater!" in a crowded firehouse ?

Re:Ah

[silentcoder]

A father of 10 ?
As a father of one, I'm pretty sure he was begging them to pull the trigger. Mark that one down as a mercy killing.

Re:Ah

[silentcoder]

In fact, it's WORSE than South African appartheid. Appartheid actually gave black people their countries with their own governments. It was mostly for show (and the world wasn't buying tickets) as the white South African government constantly interfered in the homeland country's elections to ensure pro-appartheid governments were elected.

But there were enough whites who sincerely believed the propaganda of "a country for every nation" that they actually created self-governing countries for the various black tribes. Post 1994 all but two of those countries (Lesotho and Swaziland) voluntarily became part of South Africa again.

On the other hand you have the west bank and Gaza strip. Land that under a UN resolution Israel has no jurisdiction or rights over. Land that has been de facto recognized by almost all the countries on the UN as being the independent state of Palestine - which is under illegal military occupation by a foreign invader. So the local citizens cannot claim rights from their own government (as that is in exile) and have no rights from the invaders either. They are effectively a stateless people despite living on the land the world has recognized as being theirs.

A two-state solution could, conceivably work, but only if it's done sincerely. None of those "puppet governments in a puppet country we only created to make ourselves feel better" bullshit South Africa pulled. Israel actually proposed stuff like that in the past and it got rejected (which was exactly as expected) because what Israel in past decades called a "two-state solution" actually made the Palestinian "state" basically an Israeli colony where the government would be effectively constrained to do whatever Tel Aviv said.

To work - it would need to be given true and genuine independence. A border agreed on and respected by both sides. The withdrawal of the Israeli military to inside the border and the cessation of attacks across that border by Palestinians including a firm commitment (which they must be seen to hold to) by the Palestinian government that any future attackers be brought to justice and the more egregious ones extradited to face justice in Israel. This would need to be a tit-for-tat agreement as well. If Israelis attack Palestinians, they should also face extradition and sentencing in Palestinian courts as a result.
A completely fair and evenhanded deal is the only one that can work. It would leave both sides with aspects they deem quite unfair in light of current events - but if you do anything else than you will simply breed another generation with something to be angry about. A feeling of unfairness today in a fair law, is better than genuine unfairness for years in an unfair one.

Re:Ah

[CronoCloud]

What is sad is that you're basically saying we're condemned to a cycle of death and hate forever.

Re:Ah

[silentcoder]

Not really, I live in South Africa, we were able to end the cycle. What I am saying is that you can't end a cycle of death and hate with the same thinking that caused it, before you can end it, you have to be willing to change how you think about the issue and what outcomes you would accept.

Re:Peace and Love

[Megol]

Ever read any of the far-right papers of Israel? There are fanatics everywhere, just try to accept it as a fact.

Re:Ah

[Megol]

Using the same flawed thinking "the jews" must have negative morals given that they kill more Arabs...

But in the real world this isn't about all Arabs (look A - !!) supporting killing of all Jews ( J !!) and not even all Palestinians supporting killing of all Israelis (and vice versa). How about visiting us in reality?

Re:Kind of hard to do technically

[fustakrakich]

Can I shout "FREE!" at Walmart?

Re:Kind of hard to do technically

[fustakrakich]

Damn! I fucked that up...

I meant, Can I shout "FREE!" at a crowded Walmart?

Please don't hate me...

Pot calling kettle back;

[NewYork]

Pot calling kettle back;
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wik...