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Tesla and Autopilot Supplier Mobileye Split Up After Fatal Crash (usatoday.com)

An anonymous reader quotes a report from USA Today: Tesla and Mobileye, one of the top suppliers to its Autopilot partial self-driving system, are parting ways in the wake of the May accident that killed an owner of one of its electric Model S sedans. Mobileye is considered a leader in developing the equipment that will be needed for fully self-driving cars. The Israeli tech company will continue to support and maintain current Tesla products, including upgrades that should help the Autopilot system with crash avoidance and to better allow the car to steer itself, said Chairman Amnon Shashua in releasing the company's second-quarter earnings Tuesday. Shashua said moving cars to higher levels of self-driving capability "is a paradigm shift both in terms of function complexity and the need to ensure an extremely high level of safety." He added there is "much at stake" in terms of Mobileye's reputation, and that it is best to end the relationship with Tesla by the end of the year. Tesla CEO Elon Musk, meeting with reporters at the company's new battery Gigafactory outside Reno, indicated that Tesla can go forward without Mobileye. "Us parting ways was somewhat inevitable. There's nothing unexpected here from our standpoint," Musk said. "We're committed to autonomy. They'll go their way, and we'll go ours."

128 comments

  1. So... by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

    So basically my Tesla is now obsolete? Thanks Elon.

    1. Re:So... by aXis100 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Shocked! I say I'm shocked that a boutique car made by a startup company directed by an eccentric tycoon could possibly have had a supplier or design change. Unfathomable!

      First world problems mate.

    2. Re:So... by 110010001000 · · Score: 1, Funny

      Its OK. Don't worry about me. I'll just give it to my kid and get the new one when it comes out.

    3. Re:So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Reminds me of a real estate ad I saw for a mansion in a posh area. It explained that the house can be torn down to make way for something better, or it could possibly be used for servants' quarters.

    4. Re:So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "is best to end the relationship with Tesla by the end of the year"

      it's extremely rare that a parts supplier stops being a parts supplier by their decision. only reasons could be the customer(tesla) not paying it's bills or using them out of spec in a manner that might bite them later, and it basically says just that on the inv. call. so tesla and the sensor manufacturer were probably at odds over them shipping the autopilot sw. the sensor manufacturer knows that it can't be good enough with the sensors they sold tesla.

      the mobileye system is mainly for collision avoidance, it's just an extra safety feature kind of a thing. thats how other car manufacturers are selling the same thing.

      but I can imagine Musk looking at the spec sheet for their product and just going "AUTOPILOT!!!! WHEEE!!" after seeing that mobileyes off the shelf system has lane departure, headway monitoring/warning and forward collision warning. because hey, all you need for autopilot(tm)(r) is to hook up lane departure software output to the wheel and you're DONE! right??

      autopilot, a name chosen to make the illusion that it can drive itself. they can't even trademark it, it's only purpose as a name is to deceive.

    5. Re:So... by Tablizer · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So basically my Tesla is now obsolete? Thanks Elon.

      Most people buy a Tesla because it's electric and fast, NOT because it has a bot.

    6. Re:So... by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 0

      Seems like a one-sided take. I would say there is a nearly equal chance that Tesla is dissatisfied at their capabilities and realizes they need to bring it in-house to better serve themselves. There is also that potential for litigation and being able to point fingers at another party.

      As for the term autopilot, in its aviation context it is pretty reasonable. It isn't like they are calling it Chauffer...

    7. Re: So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Don't buy a beta car, maybe? You bought it.

    8. Re:So... by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      I would say there is a nearly equal chance that Tesla is dissatisfied at their capabilities and realizes they need to bring it in-house to better serve themselves.

      In any case, that is what Tesla needs to do if MobileEye is unwilling or can't build autonomous cars.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    9. Re:So... by SirSlud · · Score: 1

      Which part of "The Israeli tech company will continue to support and maintain current Tesla products" is complicated?

      --
      "Old man yells at systemd"
    10. Re:So... by Immerman · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Despite initially feeling the same as you about the Autopilot name, I've been cooling rapidly on it for one simple reason: in practice an aviation autopilot can handle pretty much anything that it is likely to encounter well enough for a distracted pilot to take many seconds assessing any crisis situation before having to take control. And that's key, because if the pilot's input is not needed, then human nature dictates that they're likely to be distracted when a situation that *does* need their input arises.

      Tesla's Autopilot is not yet anywhere near that competent, not because it's technical competency is lacking in comparison, quite the opposite in fact, but because its expected operating environment is far more crowded and chaotic, and most crises will unfold far more rapidly, having already reached a conclusion before an inevitably distracted driver can hope to assess the situation. As such, Autopilot will need to be FAR more competent than it currently is just to be able to offer the same level of real-world functionality and safety as its relatively crude aviation counterpart.

      I'd say it's currently got 70-80% of the needed functionality worked out, which means, as any programmer can attest, that only 90% or so of the work remains to be done.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    11. Re:So... by allcoolnameswheretak · · Score: 1

      Don't wish someone death on the Internet.

      It's not a nice thing to do.
      Also, if they do die, their ghosts might come back to haunt you.

    12. Re:So... by oobayly · · Score: 1

      As for the term autopilot, in its aviation context it is pretty reasonable. It isn't like they are calling it Chauffer...

      I get the idea people think the aircraft autopilots a some magical device that allows pilots to sleep while steering the aeroplane around mountains, weather and other aircraft. Where as the reality is a bit more like this:

      He [Lubitz] had set the autopilot to descend to 100 feet (30 m) and accelerated the speed of the descending aircraft several times thereafter.[105][106] The aircraft was travelling at 700 kilometres per hour (430 mph) when it crashed into the mountain [1,800m ASL].

    13. Re:So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      That, yes, and also...

      A normal 3 axis autopilot will take a plane from climb to descent, without pilot input, in like 99.99% of flights. Therefore "auto".
      Even your most basic roll "autopilot" (keeps the wings level) deserves to some extent the "auto" moniker, because keeping the wings level is 50% of what a pilot has to do when flying the plane. It's first pointing out that the _very first_ autopilot did more than that.

      By contrast Tesla's lane avoidance++ does not come anywhere close of doing 50% of what the driver has to do from leaving the driveway to entering the carpark. Calling it "auto" anything is ridiculous. People who defend it just show they have no clue about aviation.

    14. Re:So... by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      Its OK. Don't worry about me. I'll just give it to my kid and get the new one when it comes out.

      Great, maybe he'll kill himself abusing autopilot.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    15. Re:So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...and that's what separates Elon from the rest of us... yah, everyone knows it's easier to ask forgiveness than permission, but doing that with human lives takes someone with a special kind of character...

      And yah, without those kinds of folks, we wouldn't have self driving cars at all... sometimes you just gotta put the damn thing into production and see what happens (and fix bugs as they come up), instead of polishing the tech for another 20 years.

    16. Re:So... by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      Gee really nice, asshole. You want my kid to die?

    17. Re:So... by 110010001000 · · Score: 0

      We all know what "maintenance" means. It is a codename for "dont call us".

    18. Re:So... by drinkypoo · · Score: 3, Funny

      Gee really nice, asshole. You want my kid to die?

      No, I want you to die before making him, but causality prohibits it.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    19. Re:So... by dave420 · · Score: 1

      I don't, so you are incorrect that we all know. How about making a real argument as opposed to relying on obviously-nonsensical generalisations and appeals?

    20. Re:So... by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 2

      Ok, let's talk about the purpose and practical capability of a plane's autopilot:

      • Is it there so the pilot (in charge) can sleep?
      • Does it eliminate the need for a second pilot?
      • Does it allow the pilot to prop a DVD player on the yoke and watch Harry Potter?
      • Do pilots fear for their jobs because of autopilots?
      • Do airlines plan on eliminating the copilot role?
      • And ultimately, What does the autopilot do if faced with input data it cannot reconcile?

      Autopilot is there to reduce pilot workload, it is not there to automate the whole process. It does not take a plane gate-to-gate. Safety organizations worry that autopilot makes pilots loose skill and reaction time. Autopilot in the Tesla behaved much like several other crashes attributed to pilots mis-using or over-relying on the autopilot.

      The thing that is different with Tesla's system is that they do have ambitions of it taking you door to door eventually.

    21. Re:So... by mysidia · · Score: 1

      boutique car made by a startup company directed by an eccentric tycoon could possibly have had a supplier or design change. Unfathomable!

      It is a bid odd, the timing of the supplier change, however. Did MobilEye deliver something substandard or that failed to meet specs? Did Tesla find a better option to replace MobilEye?

      Maybe this is just a cost-cutting measure which happens to coincide with the fatal crash by chance alone.

      Or... : Is Tesla dissatisfied with the MobilEye components on any rational basis, Or the supplier seemed like a good scapegoat, Or Tesla had unreasonable expectations from MobilEye's components?

    22. Re:So... by Immerman · · Score: 1

      Lets be clear, most of that list is specifically talking about airline rules designed to push potential liability as low as reasonably possible in order to maximize profit margins and minimize PR disasters, NOT to maintain a reasonable level of safety. In private aircraft where a much lower automobile level of safety is acceptable, planes are routinely flown without a copilot, and I suspect books and DVD players do in fact get used during clear sky flying far more often than you expect without issue.

      I care nothing about the future plans for Tesla's Autopilot system. I just want it to be able to meet feature parity with an aviation autopilot on only one critical feature before I could support having it on the road with such a deceptive name:

      Be able to safely maintain control of the vehicle during an unfolding crisis long enough for a distracted pilot to assess the situation and take control.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    23. Re:So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Despite initially feeling the same as you about the Autopilot name, I've been cooling rapidly on it for one simple reason: in practice an aviation autopilot can handle pretty much anything that it is likely to encounter well enough for a distracted pilot to take many seconds assessing any crisis situation before having to take control.

      That's just simply not true, because in reality the average aviation autopilot just follows heading and altitude settings. They can't handle any situation that doesn't involve going to or holding the heading set, or ascending/descending/holding the altitude set. The average autopilot doesn't have collision notification, let alone avoidance. Most will stall the plane if you don't give it enough throttle, or simply fly into the side of a mountain if it's at the heading and altitude you set. Some of the autopilots used on passenger planes can do more, but it's far from every passenger plane that has substantially more than the system I described. And none of them are as advanced as you claim, they absolutely cannot handle pretty much anything.

      Tesla's autopilot is leaps and bounds more advanced than the average aviation autopilot.

    24. Re:So... by Immerman · · Score: 2

      And yet, despite all that, in normal clear-sky conditions a distracted pilot that simply sits in the chair and scans the environment every few minutes will be able to utilize it safely. Not because the autopilot is particularly sophisticated, but because the operating environment is extremely forgiving. Away from high-traffic airports airspace, any obstacles will be clearly visible for at many minutes before action is required.

      Yes, Tesla's "Autopilot" is leaps and bounds more sophisticated, but it is unable to deliver the same level of reliability simply because the difference in operating environment complexity and urgency is far greater than the increase in sophistication.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    25. Re:So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

              Is it there so the pilot (in charge) can sleep? no.
              Does it eliminate the need for a second pilot? yes there is no second pilot on most business jets.
              Does it allow the pilot to prop a DVD player on the yoke and watch Harry Potter? yes most business jet pilots do that.
              Do pilots fear for their jobs because of autopilots? no
              Do airlines plan on eliminating the copilot role? no because of public perception. business jets hardly ever have copilots anymore.
              And ultimately, What does the autopilot do if faced with input data it cannot reconcile? it sounds the warning horn and disconnects.

    26. Re:So... by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      The thing that is different with Tesla's system is that they do have ambitions of it taking you door to door eventually.

      That's not really different. Airlines would love to eliminate pilots... eventually.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    27. Re:So... by abmw · · Score: 1

      An OEM comes an OEM replaces them, Delphi, Lear, and infineon all have these system available for any manufacturer with money.

  2. Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Impressed but not surprised Mobileye would ditch Tesla. If one of my customers was using my shit recklessly on public beta experiments that got people killed I would ditch them too.

    1. Re:Wow by catchblue22 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Tesla ditched Mobileye, and not the other way around. Mobileye's stock went down by 10% after this. Tesla's didn't.

      --
      This and no other is the root from which a tyrant springs; when first he appears as a protector - Plato (423 to 327 BC)
    2. Re:Wow by thegarbz · · Score: 3, Interesting

      And yet the opposite was true. Mobileyes isn't the one who terminated the relationship.

      Also just as well you're not in business, or maybe this is why you're not in business. Terminating a lucrative contact because a customer has an issue for which the customer has full liability and is handling the full PR outfall? If you're that interested on giving away money let me know and I'll send you my paypal details.

    3. Re:Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Tesla ditched Mobileye, and not the other way around."

      Do you have any evidence for this?

    4. Re:Wow by drinkypoo · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Tesla ditched Mobileye, and not the other way around. Mobileye's stock went down by 10% after this. Tesla's didn't.

      Welcome to slashdot, where the moderators are dumbfucks and the points don't matter. Guess what? Mobileeye ditched Tesla, to spend more time working with other manufacturers. They probably saw the writing on the wall: Tesla wants to control every part of their car internally, and working with Mobileye was just a way to get their foot in the door sooner with a product. Sooner or later, Tesla would have dropped them. While their stock has taken a big hit since the announcement, it's probably best for them in the long run. It's also great for Tesla, since they can deflect some of the blame onto their now-departed partner.

      Whose stock dips after an announcement doesn't inherently tell you anything, mostly because the market is not rational.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    5. Re:Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mobileye are some shiesty tech-illiterate marketing people pushing a technology before it is ready in an attempt to gain market share and ultimately have a remote kill switch for individuals they dislike. Should be all the evidence needed.

    6. Re:Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      PR-dribble/10

    7. Re:Wow by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      And yet the opposite was true. Mobileyes isn't the one who terminated the relationship.

      Literally everyone is reporting the opposite, so where are you getting your information?

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    8. Re:Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      From the Church of Elontology of course, the only source of truth in this world!

      has anyone else noticed the similarity between Elon and L. Ron ????

  3. Re:Whatever, dude by fluffernutter · · Score: 1, Troll

    The fact is, getting people to eat right and exercise regularly would save more lives then automated cars ever could. Why not focus on that?

    --
    Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
  4. Re:Shit post. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    I bought a car recently.

    It has 'frontal collision avoidance' and 'speed limit reader' built in. It does that with a bit of lidar and a bit of camera work. Actually pretty cool CS wise.

    The car companies have a real issue on their hands. Sun and temperature blindness. Twice already my car has freaked out and went into an error mode. The temp on the dashboard was easily over 120f (~50c) (the camera is behind the driver mirror). The camera freaked out and just stopped working. All of the other cameras that the car would let me see out of were smeary and 'grey'. You could tell the temp had basically made the sensor over sensitive. So the second I got a couple of reflections off a truck in front of me the system stopped working. Now some of you may be thinking 'oh just take it in'. Already done. 'common problem in the summer'. Bit or research on the internet? Same thing. Parked the thing in the garage and everything was fine again. Now these things are basically 'toys' in my car. But if they were important for real day to day usage I would be a bit more mad.

    I am excited for the upcoming self driving car revolution. But it will be awhile. I would not buy one and rely on it too much today. They will need to put some very high end camera parts in these things. I am not seeing that today with the ones I have seen. Most are in the 720 and lower range with poor color contrast, and poor refresh. Little better than a cell phone camera from 10 years ago.

  5. Blame game again? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This sounds familiar. Oh yeah... Ford and Firestone parting ways because they were blaming each other for Explorer rollovers. It's funny how the rollovers continued after they put everything else but Firestones on them.

    1. Re: Blame game again? by ishmaelflood · · Score: 1

      Yes, some mugs continued to roll their trucks. But the obvious point you are missing is that most of the failed tires came from Firestone's Juliet plant, not the others. So there was an actual product defect.

    2. Re: Blame game again? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ford issued a Technical Service Bulletin long before the tire recall saying not to put more than 26psi in the tires because the vehicles wouldn't pass the J-Hook maneuver. The problem with that is as the tires loose air pressure (normal loss of air pressure is up to 2psi per month) the tires fail. All tires will fail if run with low air pressure for extended times. I've seen the best Michelin tires fail the same way. How often do people check the air pressure? I'll bet they don't.

    3. Re: Blame game again? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you can check it everytime you get into the car. just replace your existing valve stem covers with the ones from walmart which show the tire pressure mechanically with a color.

  6. Re:Whatever, dude by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 1

    Full on autonomy is a pipe dream.

    No wireless. Less space than a nomad. Lame.

    It's out there and it's going to happen.

  7. Re:Whatever, dude by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Because convince people to change their live styles (or religiously beliefs) is a hell lot harder than getting car driving automatically.

  8. Re:Shit post. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sounds like you should have bought a Tesla instead.

  9. Wooo AstroTurfing by OverlordQ · · Score: 2

    Two musky stories in a row? Some PR firm must be getting some big dollars.

    --
    Your hair look like poop, Bob! - Wanker.
    1. Re:Wooo AstroTurfing by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 2

      Two musky stories in a row? Some PR firm must be getting some big dollars.

      It's pretty obvious Musk put some sort of major PR campaign into motion over the past couple of weeks. Probably costing his investors a fortune.

      --
      #DeleteChrome
    2. Re:Wooo AstroTurfing by catchblue22 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Two musky stories in a row? Some PR firm must be getting some big dollars.

      Not really. Lots of people just really like Musk's products. I mean, he landed a fucking rocket on a boat! He makes the world's fastest production SUV. His autopilot is orders of magnitude better than the competition.

      Musk is in some ways similar to Steve Jobs. Early on, trolls would shit over Apple products. Too expensive. Too simple. Then Jobs guided Apple to be the most profitable company in the world. Why? Because people liked Apple products. Musk received nearly 400000 pre-orders for their next car. Why? Because people liked the car when they saw it. It wasn't some tricky marketing campaign. People just like how the Model 3 looks, and how it performs.

      --
      This and no other is the root from which a tyrant springs; when first he appears as a protector - Plato (423 to 327 BC)
    3. Re:Wooo AstroTurfing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Looks? I'll agree with that, although bear in mind that there were a fair number of reservations (they aren't pre-orders) before the reveal. 115,000 in fact. (Source: the official reveal video.) So the looks might be a part of the story, but they aren't the whole story. Not even close.

      Performs? At this stage, it's too early to tell about that. Sure, you can use the Model S as something of a guide - I fully expect the Model 3 drivetrain to be extremely similar to the Model S drivetrain - but it's not a given that they'll be the same.

      A part of it is that the reservation is fully refundable. I could go to Tesla right now and ask for my reservation deposit back, and they'd give it to me - no haggling, no argument. But I'm not going to do that - because I like what Tesla is doing, I like their plans for the future, and I feel that the price of the deposit is small enough to put it forward, wait, and see exactly what they do - because if I like what they see, I want to buy sooner rather than later.

      So what it comes down to is that Tesla has demonstrated certain performance (in terms of what they deliver to people, not what their cars are capable of doing on the road) in their manufacturing, and the large number of pre-orders is people saying, "yes, we have expectations that we believe will be met, here's some money to hold our place in the queue." I think that's where the reservation numbers come from - people wanting to support, in some small way, a vision for a better future, and Musk has demonstrated that that's what his company aims to deliver. He doesn't just say it, he shows it.

    4. Re:Wooo AstroTurfing by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      Musk is in some ways similar to Steve Jobs. Early on, trolls would shit over Apple products. Too expensive. Too simple. Then Jobs guided Apple to be the most profitable company in the world.

      Those people weren't trolls: Jobs worshipper detected. Your turtleneck is a bit too tight this month. Those people were just wrong. They forgot that stupid people will pay to be fucked over if it gets them ooh shiny shiny.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    5. Re:Wooo AstroTurfing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Isn't this an investor speculation board to promulgate rumors and insider information to cause stock price fluctuations, or did I come to the wrong place?

    6. Re:Wooo AstroTurfing by catchblue22 · · Score: 1

      Jobs worshipper detected. Your turtleneck is a bit too tight this month.

      No not necessarily. I personally do not like IOS. I think it is an overly restrictive black box-ish OS that puts too much control over MY computer in the hands of Apple. I also do not like that Apple seems to be pushing for OSX and IOS to merge. I use a OSX and Linux, and if Apple pisses me off to much, I will shift more towards Linux, and perhaps towards a Chrome-book/Android (never Microsoft!).

      However you cannot deny the magnitude of what Jobs accomplished as a leader of Apple. He led his company to create the Mac. Then he was kicked out, and MBA Schulley nearly bankrupted the company. Meanwhile he led the creation of the brilliant NeXT OS. He returned to Apple, used NeXT OS to create OSX, and subsequently led Apple to its becoming the world's most profitable company.

      The moniker "fanboy" is really an insult which is empty of thought. If I admire a person or a company, I can assure you I have well considered reasons.

      --
      This and no other is the root from which a tyrant springs; when first he appears as a protector - Plato (423 to 327 BC)
    7. Re:Wooo AstroTurfing by catchblue22 · · Score: 1

      They forgot that stupid people will pay to be fucked over if it gets them ooh shiny shiny.

      Well he must have been on to something. Almost all phones now are clones of the iPhone. BTW, I use Android.

      --
      This and no other is the root from which a tyrant springs; when first he appears as a protector - Plato (423 to 327 BC)
    8. Re:Wooo AstroTurfing by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      However you cannot deny the magnitude of what Jobs accomplished as a leader of Apple.

      I don't, at all. He realized that you could separate suckers from money by candy coating computers. That was a seriously important realization which has changed our world for the better... for corporations.

      Meanwhile he led the creation of the brilliant NeXT OS.

      You will note that until it got picked up by Apple, which would have been a massive mistake if they didn't get Jobs in the bargain as they could have had BeOS instead, he was leading it straight into the ground. It was priced out of reach for consumers, and it was too fiddly and nonstandard for businesses. Oh yeah, and it was too expensive for them, too. NeXT hardware was still running on 68k chips when everyone else was moving on to RISC. NeXTStep for x86 had absolutely shit hardware compatibility, and no software worth mentioning. It was truly an OS without a purpose.

      He returned to Apple, used NeXT OS to create OSX, and subsequently led Apple to its becoming the world's most profitable company.

      Right, selling people shiny chains. Again, that's Jobs' brilliance; realizing that customers will pay to have choice taken away from them if you tell them how great they are for doing so.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  10. Re: Shit post. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Disagree. Logic it through. Did Tesla or Mobileye make a mistake? Is one of them taking unnecessary risks?

  11. Re:Shit post. by stabiesoft · · Score: 1

    Who is using lidar now? I thought everyone is still using only cameras, radar and sonar. Also as I understand it, part of the issue with tesla/mobileye is elon does not think lidar is necessary. I think he is wrong, and believe if the current systems had lidar, there would have been no death in florida.

  12. Re:Whatever, dude by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    why try to ban "assault rifles"

  13. Re:Shit post. by FlyHelicopters · · Score: 1

    It has 'frontal collision avoidance' and 'speed limit reader' built in. It does that with a bit of lidar and a bit of camera work. Actually pretty cool CS wise.

    First, you don't really have LIDAR in your car, not really.

    The car companies aren't putting in the good stuff just yet, when they are able to at a reasonable price, this will all change...

    It is worth noting that a real LIDAR unit costs more than a Tesla does...

  14. Re:Shit post. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sorry. All I can hear is "mumble, mumble, grumble" with Elon's cock stabbing into your tonsils.

  15. Just Friends by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "The Israeli tech company will continue to support and maintain current Tesla products"

    So they're going to remain "Just Friends".

    Take it from me. Don't drag it out. What they need to say is, "Have a nice life".

  16. Re:Shit post. by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

    No one cares about the death in Florida. People are too convinced that autonomous cars will save lives.

    --
    Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
  17. Re:Shit post. by fluffernutter · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'm not at all convinced that anything will change. Car companies have to be forced by the government to spend $5 on seat belts, they're always going to be looking for the absolute minimum cost to produce economy/midrange vehicles and full automation will never fit into that.

    --
    Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
  18. Re:Shit post. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    both of those are real assists. if they work fine, if they don't then maybe you hit something faster, but in any case you wont be hitting something faster than if you didn't have those things installed on the car.

    you can't buy a self driving car today anyways - and from this split I would say that the sensor provider and tesla had some issues about disagreeing about how to use them.. basically the sensor manufacturer doesn't want to get sued because tesla uses them in systems they are not made or rated for. the sensor manufacturer knows that the stuff in the tesla is not good enough for auto-driving, even if you can sort of hack together a beta that sort of works sometimes.

  19. Re:Shit post. by naughtynaughty · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Two humans and one computer failed to avoid the collision. One human was at fault for failing to yield to oncoming traffic. Fatal accidents involving left hand turns are common.

    About 100 people die every day on US roads. Beyond regretting that yet another person failed to yield while turning left in front of traffic and it resulted in a death what, exactly are we supposed to care about regarding that particular accident?

    I don't know how many lives would be saved with autonomous vehicles, I only know that about 30,000 deaths a year on the roads are caused by human errors. Far more accidents involving serious injuries and billions of dollars in damage also occur each year due to human errors.

  20. Tesla decided to stop using Mobileye by catchblue22 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    To quote Elon Musk:

    “This was expected and will not have any material effect on our plans. MobilEye’s ability to evolve its technology is unfortunately negatively affected by having to support hundreds of models from legacy auto companies, resulting in a very high engineering drag coefficient. Tesla is laser-focused on achieving full self-driving capability on one integrated platform with an order of magnitude greater safety than the average manually driven car.”

    This sounds quite reasonable to me. Tesla wants to go faster than anyone else in autopilot. Mobileye starts selling its chips to many car-makers. Mobileye is unwilling to make a special chip only for Tesla. Tesla then decides to come up with their own solution, using their in house chip expertise as well as possibly other companies' products (Nvidia perhaps?). This post is a subtle troll on Tesla.

    --
    This and no other is the root from which a tyrant springs; when first he appears as a protector - Plato (423 to 327 BC)
    1. Re:Tesla decided to stop using Mobileye by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      oh but then you would think mobileye would have just said that tesla is dropping them. not the other way around...

      what it looks to me is simply that Tesla was misusing the components they supplied and don't want the liability from the risks that tesla is taking. both sides doublespeak is basically just saying that same thing.

      huuundreds of legacy cars, well, they all have the same speeds and components roughly. there's just a few cars that have motors to steer though.

        mobileye doesn't want the liability of being a parts supplier when tesla is using those parts for steering cars. mobileyes system is meant for crash avoidance or to wake you up if you fall asleep at the wheel or whatever.. however because it has all the parts to make a bare minimum self driving car, tesla decided to sell it as such, with a beta label and probably asked for more engineering help to tap more data out of mobileyes system, which could mean giving them the system to clone outright or to be counted as being involved in it's development instead of being just a random chip supplier.

      they don't want the liability from autopilot because they know it cannot work well enough. possibly they have some emails already stating such that they know are going to get subpoenaed as some court or another looks into if Tesla knew that their system was basically unsafe and marketed unrealistically of it's real features. even tesla doesn't want the liability, that's why they marked it as beta! but at the same time that's admitting that the system basically sucks.

      like a tire manufacturer could stop selling 45mph rated tires to a car manufacturer who used them on a 130mph going car they named the "SuperGripRacer3000MichelinEdition".

      anyways they're selling to bmw.

    2. Re:Tesla decided to stop using Mobileye by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh please. If Musk really had felt that way he'd have never approached a third party to begin with.

      Don't get me wrong, it's probably best for all parties involved but Musk comes off sounding "sour grapes" about it all.

      Another layer of the myth of Musk has been peeled back.

    3. Re:Tesla decided to stop using Mobileye by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's one of those things that first gen is hard, but replicating first gen tech isn't that hard situations. I'm sure Tesla will be able to replicate what they currently get pretty easily...

    4. Re:Tesla decided to stop using Mobileye by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To quote Elon Musk:

      “This was expected and will not have any material effect on our plans. MobilEye’s ability to evolve its technology is unfortunately negatively affected by having to support hundreds of models from legacy auto companies, resulting in a very high engineering drag coefficient. Tesla is laser-focused on achieving full self-driving capability on one integrated platform with an order of magnitude greater safety than the average manually driven car.”

      The marketspeak is strong with this one...

    5. Re:Tesla decided to stop using Mobileye by speedplane · · Score: 1

      resulting in a very high engineering drag coefficient

      Eccentric billionaires... why must they use confounding jargon to say simple things!

      --
      Fast Federal Court and I.T.C. updates
    6. Re:Tesla decided to stop using Mobileye by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Oh please. If Musk really had felt that way he'd have never approached a third party to begin with.

      Try this idea on: He didn't have the engineering resources to do rapidly what he could get rapidly by buying someone else's solution, so he hired engineers and bought someone else's solution at the same time so that he could come to market in a timely fashion. Now he's done that, and he doesn't need any new tech from Mobileye; all he needs from them is parts and patches, which they've committed to delivering. The next generation of vehicle will have their in-house solution.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  21. Re:Shit post. by catchblue22 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    LIDAR is likely not the best tool for self-driving cars. It has problems in snow and rain. Radar and video are likely better, especially radar that makes a sparse point cloud, as Tesla's is going to do in the next update.

    --
    This and no other is the root from which a tyrant springs; when first he appears as a protector - Plato (423 to 327 BC)
  22. Re:Shit post. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    One human was at fault for failing to yield to oncoming traffic.

    100% Wrong. The truck was completely in the right. The road was completely clear of traffic when the truck made its turn. The moron in the lemon was speeding.

  23. Re:Shit post. by fluffernutter · · Score: 4, Interesting

    That's another thing. The speeding. Autopilot breaks the law and LOGS IT.

    --
    Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
  24. Re:Shit post. by phantomfive · · Score: 1

    What does lidar give you that radar doesn't? Serious question.

    --
    "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  25. Re:Shit post. by Dog-Cow · · Score: 2

    The autopilot did not break any law. The driver broke a law. If we can't get simple things like that correct, there is no way to have a logical conversation or debate.

  26. Re:Shit post. by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

    Where did the speed instruction come from? The driver's foot on the pedal?

    --
    Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
  27. Fooled by a mirror by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's fooled by a mirror, by reflection, its fooled by lights coming on in a garage. It's clearly not fit for purpose. They need to add LIDAR, because any visual system would need to have a complete and total model of the world and everything it might see in it.

    Musk says LIDAR doesn't work in the rain, but I've seen Google cars drive in the rain, so I'm skeptical. If its true then he could have both systems to overcome weaknesses in each one.

    Either way, there are technical fixes and Musk has a way forward with this tech.

  28. Re:Shit post. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It cost 2x more than I wanted to spend and did not have the range I wanted.

  29. Re:Shit post. by FlyHelicopters · · Score: 1

    LIDAR is fine in the snow/rain, it is all about having the right set of wavelengths...

    A cheap unit isn't going to have that flexible of a sensor, but the good ones will.

    Consider that a proper LIDAR can pickup speed bumps and potholes from 10,000 feet in the air, or buried IEDs from closer in... but they cost several hundred thousand dollars...

    From 200 feet away rain and snow aren't going to cause them any issues.

    But you are not going to put a $250,000 LIDAR unit on a $100,000 Tesla, now are you? :)

    The $500 units they put on are cheap imitations of the real deal...

  30. You're banning the wrong guns by Immerman · · Score: 1

    If we were going to ban guns as a public safety measure, we really should start with handguns - they don't look nearly as scary, but are responsible for the vast majority of gun-related deaths. And that holds true even if you only look at gun deaths caused by mass-shooters who own an "assault rifle". Handguns are after all a weapon specifically designed for killing civilians in urban environments in the most convenient manner possible.

    Assault rifles and their kin on the other hand are optimized for killing armed and potentially lightly armored adversaries at medium range (out to a few hundred yards), and are drastic overkill for soft targets at closer range. Eliminating them primarily helps protect police and possibly gang members, not the general public.

    --
    --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
  31. Re:Shit post. by Pete+(big-pete) · · Score: 4, Informative

    Where did the speed instruction come from? The driver's foot on the pedal?

    The driver sets the maximum speed when they activate the autopilot, in much the same way as you set the speed when you use cruise control on any other car. Or are you saying speeding isn't the responsibility of any driver if they're using cruise control to break the limit?

    Autopilot will slow down if there is traffic ahead, otherwise it travels at the speed set by the driver.

    -- Pete.

  32. Re:Whatever, dude by flux · · Score: 1

    There's really no reason why both of them shouldn't be looked into. Yet one person can only focus on so many things.

  33. hmmm.. by SuperDre · · Score: 1

    great another clickbait title.... In reality Tesla already were planning on ditching them before the so called crash nonsense.. They already were upgrading their autopilot project and had already attracted developers and technicians before the (much hyped) news broke about the so called crash.. But now they media wants to spin it like it was because of the so called crash, as that is much more sensational than what actually is going on...

    1. Re:hmmm.. by sabbasolo · · Score: 2

      Designing a chip like the EyeQ v3 chip is a very large multi-year project. Tesla has hired a couple of designers, but they can't possibly be designing their own chip to replace the EyeQ. It would be akin to Dell hiring a couple of s/w engineers and saying they are writing a replacement for WIndows. I expect that in reality, Tesla are trying to integrate some of their existing s/w with other chips and new board design. From what I understand, they have disagreed about futures, and on realistic vs unrealistic expectations from existing system. For public info and speculation see: https://www.technologyreview.c...

    2. Re:hmmm.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Tesla has hired a couple of designers, but they can't possibly be designing their own chip to replace the EyeQ

      Given all the crashes, neither can Mobileye apparently.

  34. Aubout AUTOPILOT name by DrYak · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I think the name "autopilot" starts to suffer the same fate as the name "hacker": they both have a precise meaning, but in the general use by the public, the meaning has shifted

    Hacker used to be someone who is good at McGuyvering, at finding creative uses, etc.
    But the press ended up using it for Cracker, someone who just breaks into things, not necessarily showing any creativity.

    Same happenned with Autopilot: in aviation, it is a very precise thing - an apparatus which can take care automatically of the small minute details of flying the plane. The human need to provide it an order (a destination) and then only watch over it and control that everything is going well, but not actually hold the commands themselves.
    Nobody has ever deigned this for the whole crew to take a nap while it is on.

    Same in a boat: the autopilot will keep a destination, so you don't need to hold the wheel. That doesn't mean that you should be napping, you still need to whatch out for dangers, obstacles, etc.

    But suddenly, the general public has taken a different meaning: as you say, now the think of it as Chauffeur: the Chauffeur (not necessarily electronic, it can be a human) takes care of everything, while you can safely take a nap or whatch some harry potter.

    Elon should have called it "Ship's Commander mode" (as the one which gives orders instead of holding the wheel) sound both mor awesome and a little bit less passive role for the driver.

    --
    "Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
    1. Re:Aubout AUTOPILOT name by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      Same happenned with Autopilot: in aviation, it is a very precise thing

      Who told you that? They lied. There are lots of different things in aviation, all called autopilot. We handle the distinction by breaking autopilot devices down into classes, which are defined by capability. In fact, "autopilot" means many different things, from a simple system that can only maintain a heading to complex systems (and when I say "complex", I don't mean supercomputers, only as opposed to a function you can implement with discrete analog components, as the oldest autopilots did.

      The autopilot systems on the newest commercial jets are capable of handling landings unassisted, at least, if everything is working. This is just not that hard a job any more. An Arduino with MultiWii (GPL'd) is enough to take a plane off from a field, fly waypoints and take pictures or drop bombs or what have you and then return to home and land again. And that's without any beacon signal from the ground. So clearly, the word "autopilot" covers a lot of ground.

      Elon should have called it "Ship's Commander mode" (as the one which gives orders instead of holding the wheel) sound both mor awesome and a little bit less passive role for the driver.

      Do you know what you call a simple computer on a boat which maintains your heading, and does nothing else? Yep, you guessed it, that's an autopilot.

      The truth is that you cannot get autopilot even activated without a safety lecture, and if you willfully ignore the admonitions of the creators and then turn on a feature that is dangerous both to you and others if you misuse it, you deserve to die in a fireball and the only tragedy is that you may take others with you.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  35. Re:Shit post. by F.Ultra · · Score: 3, Funny

    Lasers, obviously!

  36. Re:Shit post. by geekmux · · Score: 1

    I'm not at all convinced that anything will change. Car companies have to be forced by the government to spend $5 on seat belts, they're always going to be looking for the absolute minimum cost to produce economy/midrange vehicles and full automation will never fit into that.

    Today there is hardly such a thing as an "economy" vehicle. The reason the average new car cost has risen to $30,000 is because much like cell phones, they're packed with dozens of "standard" features we never really even asked for.

    And the overall cost of a car will become irrelevant once the concept of ownership becomes obsolete. Which it will.

  37. Re:Shit post. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A point cloud

  38. Tesla intended to drop MobileEye eventually anyway by zerofoo · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Remember George Hotz?

    http://www.theverge.com/2016/6...

    He developed some self-driving technology and Elon offered him a job with a bonus if they developed technology independent of MobileEye. Elon has wanted to part ways with them for a while.

    The accident gives him the excuse he needs.

    Elon likes to do as much as possible in-house. You see that in both Tesla and SpaceX.

  39. Re:Shit post. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    heh! Just last weekend, my dashboard mounted GPS screen actually *melted* (in Sedona, Arizona; standing in the sun all day). [I think the glue or something that held layers of the screen together came apart]. old-gen-Tom-Tom :-/

  40. Re:Shit post. by stabiesoft · · Score: 2

    Really, many cars today "know" the speed limit. A friend's nissan versa tells her when the car is exceeding the limit. So shouldn't auto-pilot obey the limit automatically, which even econoboxes can somehow figure out.

  41. So, what's next by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Perhaps,
    Tesla was not a big customer in terms of sales, but was a big customer in terms of promoting Mobileye's technnology.
    There was a disconnect between Mobileye's roadmap and Tesla's.
    With the recent crashes, the sign of the help from promotion was looking negative.

    So, if Tesla is going to do something else, what might it be?
    Add some other sensor like radar or lidar.
    Surely, they already have more than one camera so they can triangulate to form a 3d model of what's out there.
    If so, why did they drive under a truck.
    Seems like the edges and reflectors on the side of the truck would have been recognized as an approaching collision.
    I look forward to seeing a final NTSB report on that.

    http://www.ntsb.gov/news/press-releases/Pages/pr20160726.aspx

    If they are currently running on one camera, perhaps Tesla should look to Mythology and find a multi-eyed creature and trademark the name.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_many-eyed_creatures

  42. Re:Shit post. by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

    Ownership won't become obsolete until automated car companies can have a car in your driveway five minutes before you open your front door. If people have to wait for a car they'd rather use their own.

    --
    Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
  43. Re:Shit post. by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

    Ok, but if I was going to set the car to speed I certainly wouldn't want the car logging it. How long before traffic enforcement starts using the log evidence against you in court? Right now it's difficult for them to get a conviction on anything less then 10 over because there are too many variables for it to hold up in court, but if Tesla is going to eliminate the variables then... you'd better just drive the speed limit.

    --
    Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
  44. Re:Shit post. by TheCastro1689 · · Score: 0

    The truck driver was still at fault, it was his responsibility to make sure the road was clear before crossing it.

  45. Re:Shit post. by geekmux · · Score: 2

    Ownership won't become obsolete until automated car companies can have a car in your driveway five minutes before you open your front door. If people have to wait for a car they'd rather use their own.

    I'd "rather" not have to drive a car at all, and call for a chauffeur every morning to drive me to work. The reason millions of people don't have their own personal chauffeurs is the same exact reason car ownership will become obsolete and fairly quickly. You won't be able to afford it.

    When autonomy is proven to be orders of magnitude safer than having a meatsack behind the wheel, insurance rates will adjust accordingly. Sure, you can choose to spend $2,000/month on human-powered car insurance for the privilege of still controlling your own vehicle, but who would want to do that when the next-gen autonomous ride service is ten times cheaper? Cost is king today. That is why you see Uber/Lyft fans wait for a car while the cab sitting right next to them is ignored.

  46. Re:Shit post. by prisoner-of-enigma · · Score: 1

    What does lidar give you that radar doesn't? Serious question.

    Far better resolution, for one thing. Radar is limited to the resolution obtainable by the radar frequency which, no matter how high it is, is lower than that of lidar. All things being equal, higher frequency means higher resolution. It also usually means less range and greater reflection vs. absorption.

    --
    In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet and say to us, Make us your slaves, but feed us. - Fyodor Dostoyevsky
  47. Re:Shit post. by naughtynaughty · · Score: 1

    A LIDAR can give you a higher resolution view due to its much smaller beamwidth. The RADAR pretty much gives you distance and velocity to things in front of it, it can't distinguish an overhead road sign from the broad side of a semi.

    LIDAR is affected more by fog, rain and smoke in the air.

  48. Re:Shit post. by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

    Ok well you wait for 20 minutes for a car every morning or operate on some pre-set schedule. I'd like to keep my own schedule.

    Yes I would expect insurance for autonomous cars would drop to around $50 a year since the human is no longer responsible or able to control for anything that happens in a truly autonomous car. Insurance will protect the value of the property and nothing that may happen with it. Passenger not liable.

    --
    Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
  49. Re:Shit post. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The road was clear enough for a slow accelerating semi to get its cab clear of the intersection. Had the driver been paying attention, they would have seen this occurring, and slowed down enough to not hit the vehicle. You say that the truck had a responsibility to make sure the road was clear before crossing it. Be that as it may (and given how far the truck got, it seems likely that the way was clear when he started), it in no way absolves the driver for failing to pay attention, or the vehicle for not seeing the truck.

  50. Re:Shit post. by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

    Like really, if I wanted to travel like this I would take the bus now.

    --
    Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
  51. Autopilot vs unmanned vehicle by DrYak · · Score: 1

    The autopilot systems on the newest commercial jets are capable of handling landings unassisted, at least, if everything is working. This is just not that hard a job any more.

    I very well know that.
    But still, the thing officially requires a human being to check it, and none of there is currently approved for total autonomous / "unmanned cockpit" for flying people around.

    - It *could* fly people around autonomously.
    - It *would* propbably fly poeple around in case of an emergency (e.g.: if both pilot an co-pilot are sick and unconscious)
    - but normally we still require human attendance just in case, and not nap instead.
    it's officially called an autopilot

    That's the exact same situation with Tesla (and all the other brands featuring automatic lane following)
    - It could drive around autonomously
    - in case of emergency, it would probably drive people around (e.g.: if the driver is in an health emergency, se could theoriticaly push a "red button" that automatically sets the destination for autopilot to the nearest hospital and calls 911/112. Or at least the car could safely go park itself to the shoulder and call 911/112)
    - but normally we still require a human to pay attention just in case, and not watch DVDs instead.
    it was branded an autopilot by Elon

    An Arduino with MultiWii (GPL'd) is enough to take a plane off from a field, fly waypoints and take pictures or drop bombs or what have you and then return to home and land again. And that's without any beacon signal from the ground.

    And the official precise terminology for that is called an *Unmaned Aerial Vehicle*. (UAV) (Or drone in the common parlance) More precisely an *autonomous* one.
    Just like google call their car "autonomous" or "driver-less". Not simply autopilot.

    So clearly, the word "autopilot" covers a lot of ground.

    ...in the common parlance. Specialist tend to use words like "autonomous", "unmanned", etc. in more advanced cases to emphasis the difference.
    And that's my point, average joe might confuse "autopilot" with "autonomous unmaned aerial vehicle" (or with "chauffeur" as aaarrrgggh mentionned above).
    So although the name sounds reasonable to a specialist, it might get confused by non-nerds.

    Elon should have called it "Ship's Commander mode" (as the one which gives orders instead of holding the wheel) sound both mor{e} awesome and a little bit less passive role for the driver.

    Do you know what you call a simple computer on a boat which maintains your heading, and does nothing else? Yep, you guessed it, that's an autopilot.

    Yup. I even mentioned it in my above post.

    And that's why I think "Ship's Commander mode" would be adapted. I would convey in layman's term what they though when saying "autopilot".

    The truth is that you cannot get autopilot even activated without a safety lecture, and if you willfully ignore the admonitions of the creators and then turn on a feature that is dangerous both to you and others if you misuse it, you deserve to die in a fireball and the only tragedy is that you may take others with you.

    Perhaps someday, the use of autopilot-like capabilities will be regulated, requiring different driver licenses (like manual vs. automatic gear shift). You'll need to pass your license using a car with advanced assistance in order to learn to properly use it (just like manual shift).

    Or, maybe the whole thing will just evolved into a massive multiplayer competition for Darwin Awards(*)

    (*): ...in the hypothesis that you only have autopilot driver napping behind the wheel and autopilot driver paying attention and at least managing to avoid being taken with the idiots causing accidents.

    --
    "Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
    1. Re:Autopilot vs unmanned vehicle by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      An Arduino with MultiWii (GPL'd) is enough to take a plane off from a field, fly waypoints and take pictures or drop bombs or what have you and then return to home and land again. And that's without any beacon signal from the ground.

      And the official precise terminology for that is called an *Unmaned Aerial Vehicle*. (UAV) (Or drone in the common parlance) More precisely an *autonomous* one.
      Just like google call their car "autonomous" or "driver-less". Not simply autopilot.

      I know all of this. Nothing I said would lead an intelligent person to believe that I don't. So why are you saying it, when it's completely irrelevant to this conversation? FYI, I've built and programmed my own drones (both multicopter and fixed wing) and am a member of the AMA in good standing. I only mentioned drones as an aside to explain how trivial such a thing is today, as such things are measured.

      Do you know what you call a simple computer on a boat which maintains your heading, and does nothing else? Yep, you guessed it, that's an autopilot.
      Yup. I even mentioned it in my above post.

      And that's why I think "Ship's Commander mode" would be adapted. I would convey in layman's term what they though when saying "autopilot".

      So, just to be clear: you think "ship's commander mode" would be a better name for something that behaves more like a ship's "autopilot", and not even vaguely or remotely like a "ship's commander" (which is a human) at all? I would love it if you could draw me a road map to that conclusion, because from where I'm sitting, it makes no sense whatsoever. This is the only real reason I bothered to reply to your comment. I've seen you make that suggestion elsewhere, and it made me blink and shake my head in amazement. Just how does someone come to such a bizarre, unsupported, illogical conclusion? "Oh look, people are confused by terms that mean what they say, they will surely understand terms that don't!" Wait, what?

      Perhaps someday, the use of autopilot-like capabilities will be regulated, requiring different driver licenses (like manual vs. automatic gear shift). You'll need to pass your license using a car with advanced assistance in order to learn to properly use it (just like manual shift).

      Perhaps that would be best, because human stupidity is boundless. However, in order for it to be meaningful we'll also have to implement chip-and-pin (or similar) in our driver's licenses as a replacement for or supplement to ignition keys.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  52. MobileEye has likely patented autonomous driving by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    MobileEye has likely patented the autopilot feature, which would make replacing it in the Tesla vehicles impossible without violating their patient.

  53. lasers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Frickin' Lasers, obviously!

    FTFY.

    (Maybe Tesla should rename the model to "Shark".)

  54. Re:Shit post. by catchblue22 · · Score: 1

    Tesla is working on making the radar create a sparse point cloud for their next software update. Lidar makes a much more detailed point cloud. However, lidar can be blocked by snow and rain, whereas radar is less affected by these things.

    --
    This and no other is the root from which a tyrant springs; when first he appears as a protector - Plato (423 to 327 BC)
  55. Don't call it an "autopilot". Teslas don't fly. by zenaida_valdez · · Score: 1

    To call it "Autopilot" is a pernicious deception. Teslas don't fly. The proper aviation context is taxiing, and even it's hands-off from rotation to rollout, taxiing still requires eyeballs out the window and a hand on the tiller (or feet on the rudders.) The aerospace community knows better. There has never been a serious proposal to automate the taxiing task.

  56. Re:Shit post. by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

    Maybe some people live in cities with proper on and off ramps where a semi-trailer can fully merge and not interrupt the flow of traffic, but in some cities it would be impossible for them to get around if they had to do this. My city has many small streets and intersections that are clogged with traffic most of the day and it becomes routine for trucks to push their way in and expect people to slow down to allow for their trailer. It's something that might be enforceable but never will be.

    --
    Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
  57. Re:Shit post. by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

    Yeah I would say a car with full autonomy should never allow driving over the limit. If there are cars going faster than the limit, the autonomous car should be relegated to the slow lane. That's one gray area that humans can get away with that a computer can't.

    --
    Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
  58. Re:Shit post. by MattskEE · · Score: 1

    Ok well you wait for 20 minutes for a car every morning or operate on some pre-set schedule. I'd like to keep my own schedule.

    That's perfectly fine. But it will probably be more expensive than on-demand or pre-scheduled transportation services once self-driving cars are a reality.

    Yes I would expect insurance for autonomous cars would drop to around $50 a year since the human is no longer responsible or able to control for anything that happens in a truly autonomous car. Insurance will protect the value of the property and nothing that may happen with it. Passenger not liable.

    It's not yet clear how liability will be distributed. Clearly liability will be held by somebody. In my opinion the most likely scenario is that the operator of the vehicle will take liability for its operation and will purchase insurance commensurate with that liability. The operator is whoever is commanding the vehicle. If you own your own self-driving car and tell it to drive you from point A to point B, you are the operator. If you hire a self-driving Uber, you tell Uber to take you to point B and Uber tells the car to drive you to point B, Uber becomes the operator.

    Self-driving car insurance will be cheaper if the safety is higher with self-driving features, which seems likely. The insurer would hold the manufacturer of the vehicle liable in cases of gross negligence, but not in the situation of ordinary crashes which are a statistical certainty and included in the insurer's calculations. Insurers don't require perfect safety, in fact perfect safety would put insurers out of business. They just calculate a risk, and bill enough to cover their risk plus overhead and profit margin.

    If the laws change so that vehicle operators do not need to accept liability for a self-driving vehicle they are operating then the manufacturer would be liable and the insurance cost would be reflected in the purchase price of the car.

  59. Re:Shit post. by fluffernutter · · Score: 1
    I can't see it being legal for the insurance company to hold the passenger liable for what the automation does, if there even IS a passenger. If I don't pay for insurance in a taxi, limo or bus, no more should I pay for full automation except to cover the property if I expect to have it replaced or repaired. Even more so if the automation kills someone, the passenger should not be convicted of negligence. Any situation where it can be proven that the automation did not handle a situation that a human could have should be the liability of the company selling the automation.

    That's perfectly fine. But it will probably be more expensive than on-demand or pre-scheduled transportation services once self-driving cars are a reality.

    Sure it will, but so is the bus now. And like I said in the other comment; if I wanted that kind of service I would take a bus which will still be cheaper of the three. I can't see automated services being much less expensive than a taxi however. The cars will cost 4x as expensive, and they will need to satisfy most of the same kind of maintenance standards and have a commercial form of automated insurance. Rally don't see how that will average out to being cheaper just by removing the driver.

    --
    Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
  60. Re:Shit post. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Dude, every GM car has had a "black box" of sorts since ~1996. It keeps a rolling 6-second log of the brake and gas pedal positions, speed and yaw (in the Corvette at least) sensor readings, cruise control power/speed settings, and some others I don't remember right now. It stops recording when the air bag sensors fire and leaves the car with a recorded flight-log of the 6-seconds leading up to something bad enough to cause the bags to deploy. There was a lot of talk on car forums at the time about how this might be disabled, for the very reason that you bring up - a lot of folks didn't like the idea of their car potentially "testifying against them" if it came down to it. The only way to disable the system was to pull the fuse for the air bag system, which would disable the recorder, and the air bags as well - not really an option unless your tin foil hat has a LOT of padding........

  61. Re:Shit post. by vovin · · Score: 1

    Google.

    It's a short list. AC is clueless.

  62. Re:Shit post. by vovin · · Score: 1

    That speed information comes via road map data. It's usually correct (say 95%+) but it can be wrong. I would certainly use it for a suggested guideline (like auto coloring the speedometer readout or posting a gentle audible alert).

  63. Re:Shit post. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Moron, the road was clear.

  64. Re:Shit post. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Even if velocity had been the car's decision (it wasn't), autonomous cars will go somewhat above the speed limit if surrounding traffic does. It's the right thing to do.
    And of course the car logs its speed. I would expect it to. Having an autopilot feature that deliberately doesn't log data would expose Tesla to much greater liability.

  65. Re:Shit post. by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

    Yes it is the right thing to do but it is still *illegal*. No officer is going to say publicly that you can drive 75 in a 65 because that would defeat the purpose of the speed limit being 65.

    --
    Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
  66. Terminology by DrYak · · Score: 1

    So why are you saying it, when it's completely irrelevant to this conversation?

    I find relevant to the conversation to point out "things that joe 6 pack might accidentally call an 'autopilot' even if other terminology is prefered by people in the field".

    It's relevant to a discussion thread where one of the theme is "Telsa's Autopilot is exactly what is also called an autopilot on airplanes and in boats and thus is reasonable name for this technology" vs. "The word 'autopilot' is a dangerous name because people are going to expect way too much from it".

    And that's why I think "Ship's Commander mode" would be adapted. I would convey in layman's term what they though when saying "autopilot".

    So, just to be clear: you think "ship's commander mode" would be a better name for something that behaves more like a ship's "autopilot", and not even vaguely or remotely like a "ship's commander" (which is a human) at all? I would love it if you could draw me a road map to that conclusion,

    I'm VERY bad at marketing.

    In this image the "ship's commander" human, is the human driver.
    He doesn't directly work the wheel, he's giving orders. He's in command of the ship.
    (But won't necessarily take care of the minute details).

    And I find it a good word, because it convey's an active role to the human driver (be a commander !),
    one which I hope is a lot less likely to end up saying "Hey, let's take a nap while the car drives itself around !".

    Perhaps that would be best, because human stupidity is boundless. However, in order for it to be meaningful we'll also have to implement chip-and-pin (or similar) in our driver's licenses as a replacement for or supplement to ignition keys.

    That's a bit extreme...

    Currently in most European jurisdictions (where the Manual vs. Automatic transmission distinction is frequently seen), the selection is done at registration time.
    To register a car, you need to be able to drive it and have the appropriate driver license.
    (Note: I have no clue how this works when you're a rich person who never learned to drive, but want to own a car and hire a chauffeur. I haven't looked into it).

    In theory car rental companies are required to check you driver license. But in practice, I doubt that checks go anywhere beyond "Yup, it exists" - I doubt that car rental rental companies go all the way to check if your driver license allows you to drive on the type of transmission featured on the car that you're renting.

    So in practice you could have a "restricted" license (only car without advanced driving assistance), and rent a car or borrow one with some autopilot-like features and take out the portable DVD player.

    --
    "Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]