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More Airline Outages Seen As Carriers Grapple With Aging Technology (reuters.com)

An anonymous reader writes: Airlines will likely suffer more disruptions like the one that grounded about 2,000 Delta flights this week because major carriers have not invested enough to overhaul reservations systems based on technology dating to the 1960s, airline industry and technology experts told Reuters. Airlines have spent heavily to introduce new features such as automated check-in kiosks, real-time luggage tracking and slick mobile apps. But they have avoided the steep cost of rebuilding their reservations systems from the ground up, former airline executives said. Scott Nason, former chief information officer at American Airlines Group Inc, said long-term investments in computer technology were a tough sell when he worked there. "Most airlines were on the verge of going out of business for many years, so investment of any kind had to have short pay-back periods," said Nason, who left American in 2009 and is now an independent consultant. The reservations systems of the biggest carriers mostly run on a specialized IBM operating system known as Transaction Processing Facility, or TPF. It was designed in the 1960s to process large numbers of transactions quickly and is still updated by IBM, which did a major rewrite of the operating system about a decade ago.

145 comments

  1. Dumb by geek · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "Most airlines were on the verge of going out of business for many years, so investment of any kind had to have short pay-back periods,"

    You really only see this type of thinking in the West. Most sensible companies know that when times are good, you build a war chest, when they are bad you invest the war chest to grow your business and be competitive. The problem wasn't that times were bad. You can always say times are bad. The problem was that they didn't make the best of things when times were good, and therefore deserve the cluster fuck situation they are in now.

    1. Re:Dumb by rot26 · · Score: 1

      +1, would read again.

      --



      To ensure perfect aim, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target
    2. Re:Dumb by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      You have to wonder how short is the payback period of going under. ;)

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    3. Re:Dumb by rmullig2 · · Score: 1

      That would explain why all the nuclear disaster occur in the West. We don't maintain our infrastructure as well as the wise Easterners.

    4. Re:Dumb by prograsm · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Agreed. Aging tech isn't the problem here, a complete inability to listen to or fund IT is the problem here. If they had a usable rolling backup system, it wouldn't matter how old everything is. If they had all brand new equipment and no functional load balancing system to compensate for outages that will always be a potential issue, they would still be offline for as long as it takes to fix everything. I have a hard time believing the words "off site redundancy" never came up in any IT budget meetings over the past half century, so their failures are 100% bad business decisions not IT issues. It would be no different if they had refused to budget for more fuel than exactly as much as predicted they would need. Tblaming the aircraft rather than the person that made the stupid decision to run out of fuel wouldn't make sense. It only works here because people don't understand IT, and the people that chose to allow outages like these aren't willing to admit it so they will repeat them again.

    5. Re: Dumb by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      They paid out dividends instead of having a pile of cash to sit on, if they need more money they should ask investors for more money.

      Sitting on cash is good for the company, but in the mean time the investors could have their dividends, and invest in something else, which is what is best for the investor.

    6. Re:Dumb by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 1

      You also only read such silly self-abasement in the west.

      --
      If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
    7. Re:Dumb by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      And if they don't invest in their reservation systems they obviously don't see that as a feature that sets them apart from their competition. That means they could decide to share the cost. Start building an open source airline reservation system and have each airline contribute some developers, for example. But it seems that a large part of the corporate world has become so competitive that this kind of cooperation doesn't even occur to them, especially in the US.

    8. Re:Dumb by Black+Parrot · · Score: 1

      When times are good the executives buy new yachts. When times are bad the executives whine about needing a new yacht.

      Investing in your business is for losers.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    9. Re:Dumb by PolygamousRanchKid+ · · Score: 1

      The problem was that they didn't make the best of things when times were good, and therefore deserve the cluster fuck situation they are in now.

      Oh, I'm betting that a lot of airline execs made the best of things when times were good. Nice fat bonuses and a golden parachute.

      What was the name of that game that we used to play as children? "Pin the Tail on the Donkey?" This game is called "Pin the Bill on the Stockholders and Consumers." The airline execs say, "See you on the Caymans!"

      --
      Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
    10. Re:Dumb by clodney · · Score: 4, Insightful

      From what I have read, this was not an obvious WTF moment. Delta apparently has a complete disaster recovery facility with duplicate hardware. But they had a single point of failure in their infrastructure, which caused them to lose power to the entire datacenter, and everything went down. That part might be a WTF. But once they got everything booted up again, they had to contend with trying to get a system restarted that simply wasn't designed to ever fail completely. So it took hours to get all the pieces back up and communicating again.

      Then their are the real world problems - flight A feeds into flight B, but flight A was late, meaning all those connections were missed and passengers have to be rebooked. And flight B can't fly anyway, because the plane is still sitting 500 miles away because the flight that would bring it to this airport was cancelled as well. And the flight crew that was supposed to bring flight B to this airport technically went on duty the moment they reached the airport, and now they have reached the max allowed hours in the day, so a new crew is needed. But that crew is in a different city...

      This incident will span some fascinating failure analyses, and no doubt people will get fired and lawsuits will be filed. And like most DR scenarios, it is way harder in real life than it seems in planning and exercises. I wouldn't be surprised if this causes a big project to deal with outages and restarts, so that this doesn't happen as easily next time.

    11. Re:Dumb by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You really only see this type of thinking in the West

      The rest of your post was dead-on, but this opening line is 100% pure bullshit. No, this line of thinking is not ONLY seen in "The West". It can easily be seen across the entire globe, in all countries, and all cultures. It was not invented by "The West", nor did it gain widespread adoption by "The West", and there are a great number of companies in the "The West" who do not at all subscribe to such business practices.

    12. Re:Dumb by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "IT Doesn't Matter"!

      Harvard Business Review: http://www.proxios.net/pdf/ITD...

    13. Re: Dumb by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1

      Or you fire the IT guy and put the blame on him. Our former company cut back and demanded a 99.7% uptime to a 100% after a budget cut even.

      IT is a cost center which yields 0 return on investment compared to planes

    14. Re:Dumb by Zontar_Thing_From_Ve · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You really only see this type of thinking in the West.

      While there is certainly some component of that, it's not the major reason why things are as they are. Airlines in the USA are not owned or managed by the government. If it really came down to this, the US government might let all them go out of business and let new airlines be built out of the ashes. Switzerland did that. Plus, some airlines are actually owned by the government in the countries where they are based or the relationship is not all that independent. Air France, for example, is theoretically an independent company, but if they were going out of business the French government would surely step in and save them despite it violating EU laws to do so. The US airlines know that the government may not have their backs like they did the automobile industry. Plus, being publicly traded on the US stock market is probably for them a bad thing. This causes them to make decisions for short term profit to keep the stock price high. Finally, in the USA most customers who fly in coach only care about price and literally everything else is negotiable. They will make decisions on price alone. This puts pressure on the majors US carriers to compete at perhaps unrealistic price levels with the smaller airlines, which no doubt reduces money available to spend to upgrade old computer systems.

    15. Re:Dumb by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      This assumes a couple of things:
      1. That you will consistently have cycles of "good times" and "bad times".
      2. That you will know when you are having a good time or a bad time.

      If you master #2 in particular, you will be a very rich man. This is analogous to "timing the market" in investing, and it is a very difficult art.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    16. Re:Dumb by DerekLyons · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "Most airlines were on the verge of going out of business for many years, so investment of any kind had to have short pay-back periods,"

      You really only see this type of thinking in the West. Most sensible companies know that when times are good, you build a war chest, when they are bad you invest the war chest to grow your business and be competitive.

      You really only see this kind of simpleminded thinking in people who don't know what they're talking about - but who can repeat something they read somewhere like a parrot.
       

      The problem wasn't that times were bad. You can always say times are bad. The problem was that they didn't make the best of things when times were good, and therefore deserve the cluster fuck situation they are in now.

      The problem is, times have never really been good for the airlines for any extended period. An airline is a capital intensive business, and runs on paper thin margins. Historically, as soon as they get their head above water, they get pushed under again. The shift to jets in the 50's, the fuel shocks and deregulation in the 70's, recession in the early 80's, another recession in the early 90's, a race to the bottom in fares sparked by the rise of internet ticketing, the post 9/11 drop in business, the Great Recession of 2007... (just to hit the high spots) There's a reason why practically every major airline has ended up bankruptcy court at least once.

    17. Re:Dumb by tlhIngan · · Score: 3, Informative

      But once they got everything booted up again, they had to contend with trying to get a system restarted that simply wasn't designed to ever fail completely. So it took hours to get all the pieces back up and communicating again.

      Well, mainframe computers have such excellent uptimes (you almost never reboot one) because everything is hot-swappable. CPU failure? Remove the CPU module, insert new one, and continue - all while powered up. The OS takes care of suspending the failed one and scheduling around it. Ditto all other components. Effectively, you should never reboot them.

      Of course, the thing is, when you eventually do reboot them, they take hours to boot all the way up as they perform comprehensive integrity checks (who knows why it was rebooted?).

      Then their are the real world problems - flight A feeds into flight B, but flight A was late, meaning all those connections were missed and passengers have to be rebooked. And flight B can't fly anyway, because the plane is still sitting 500 miles away because the flight that would bring it to this airport was cancelled as well. And the flight crew that was supposed to bring flight B to this airport technically went on duty the moment they reached the airport, and now they have reached the max allowed hours in the day, so a new crew is needed. But that crew is in a different city...

      This is, IMHO, the far bigger issue. Airlines are scheduled tight - if the plane's not flying, it's costing money. Ultra-low cost carriers have very right schedules to ensure the planes are always in the air.

      Getting the crews and equipment all prepositioned in the right place and ready to fly is a delicate balance at the best of times and a complete nightmare when you have to start from scratch.

    18. Re:Dumb by RabidReindeer · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That's because in the West, the post-1980 business philosophy has been "Efficiency to the Max!"

      You are expected to give "110% percent". Everyone is running Big Data analytics. The bean-counters scour the numbers and do cherry-picking to get the big profits and lemon-dropping to discard the losers. JIT inventory. On-demand elastic clouds. And all in the context of the next quarter's earnings report.

      No sane general would commit troops without maintaining reserves for the inevitable unforeseen, but modern western businesses cannot stand a moment of wasteful "idle time" or resources sitting around unused.

      And so, when the inevitable happens - train wreck. There's no spare parts, no idle people to put to work, nothing. No reserve capacity.

      As they used to say back when computers were expensive objects of reverence, "Never before in human history has it been possible to screw up so badly on so large a scale so quickly". Such is the 2-edged sword of modern technology.

    19. Re:Dumb by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 5, Informative

      I worked on the first big web-enablement for AA's Sabre system, back in 97-99. Saabre was the key to inter-airline reservation scheduling. Travel agents used this as their main system, and some other folks around here may remember the gateway with CompuServ. eAAsySaber. LOL.

      It was unlike any dotcom experience I had around that time. Super legacy. Impossible to change anything - and grave uncertainty that changes were even possible!

      The Sabre core compute and data storage stack was built on a series of different mainframe and mid-range systems, back when instead of writing new business functions, you instead attached new business systems.

      The glut of stuff crossed vendors occasionally. Mostly IBM. Parts dated to the 70's and through the 90's. I never met anybody who had a "mastermind" view of how it all worked. Instead, lots of analysts with diagrams - mostly from vendors and "big five" firms. Any proposed change had to be run through an exercise that called on the various experts in different parts of the system. Most were not so much expert, as "acquiring some expertise". ;-)

      Our work became the basis for travel services like Expedia, and customer offerings by American Express Travel, etc.

      I'm sure that this may have changed only somewhat. Saber was sold off, and became a core to Travelocity - who in turn were finally bought by Expedia, who consumed Saber information. Behind it all, there are a 360 and some front-end processors ported to AS400 systems, I'm nearly certain.

      --
      "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
      Never been known to fail..."
    20. Re:Dumb by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 1

      Sounds like a ripe opportunity to write some 'cloud based' scheduler that can handle all of this, open source it, and charge a consulting fee.

    21. Re:Dumb by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > when they are bad you invest the war chest to grow your business and be competitive

      and how is replacing a system that is working at the time "growing your business"?

    22. Re:Dumb by dgatwood · · Score: 3, Insightful

      From what I have read, this was not an obvious WTF moment. Delta apparently has a complete disaster recovery facility with duplicate hardware. But they had a single point of failure in their infrastructure, which caused them to lose power to the entire datacenter, and everything went down. That part might be a WTF.

      No, the WTF is not that the datacenter had a single point of failure. If their IT setup had been designed properly, that would have been a minor inconvenience. The WTF is that they didn't have at least three datacenters in geographically isolated locations with hot failover and regularly test the hot failover to ensure that it worked reliably and quickly in the event of a sudden, catastrophic loss of their primary datacenter.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    23. Re:Dumb by im_thatoneguy · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The problem is that if all of your competitors are willing to go bankrupt every 15 years its' really hard to not go bankrupt before they do. It doesn't do you any good if they'll be going bankrupt in 8 years if you go bankrupt next year because you're 10% more expensive.

      We see that in my industry all the time. Lots of people undercutting sustainable rates. They inevitably go bankrupt but if you don't match prices you'll go bankrupt waiting for them to go first. And since they're offering products at under cost they can also appeal to investors with fat grosses and rapid growth.

        Imagine for instance you were trying to take on Amazon. Amazon hasn't really ever made money. But they can point to their rapid growth for long term investors. If you're an airline you probably won't see growth and it's hard to say "look we're losing a lot of money now but in 8 years when our competitors hit a hard time we'll make some money then until someone else comes along and promises to do what we do but cheaper and never go out of business." You see that with Jetblue and Virgin America. Jump into the industry with lots of investment. Offer a product at razor thin margins and capture a ton of market. But their business plan isn't tested to survive a big recession. So it's a gamble. They'll either do great or it'll reveal they were built on sand.

      When your competitors are playing with fire it means they capture all of the revenue when times are good leaving you nothing to save for the "bad times" and then you only prosper when the market is crappy anyway and they can write off their debt in bankruptcy. It's a lose lose.

    24. Re:Dumb by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah. It's weird. There are all sorts of web sites that help flyers become incredibly efficient at buying the lowest fare, flyers see airlines as commodities, aand then are shocked when they find that airlines didn't invest in their own infrastructure.

      It's a good thing taxpayers haven't demanded lower taxes at every turn or we certainly had kept up on our roads, bridges, and water infrastructure as well as we have.

    25. Re:Dumb by orlanz · · Score: 1

      Well said.

      On top of what you said. In times of good, companies do not (and should NOT) build up reserves or a war chest. Such things do not operate like most people think. These are publically traded and that changes things from privately owned. If a company builds up a ton of cash or cash equivalent reserves, it is looking to be bought out. When times are good (and there were very few for the airlines, mostly via asset acquisition from bankruptcies) companies tend to try to expand or take a risk into new channels of operations (see: Microsoft).

      They don't sit there raking in monies to use when times are bad. Exception: Airtran... which almost got bought out because of it but didn't because the industry saw bad times ahead. Luckily the cash let them skip a bankruptcy. But once the buyer was on better footing, they still bought out Airtran; partially for the cash.

    26. Re:Dumb by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Other markets don't run on paper-thin margins and do alright. If airlines are having trouble breaking even despite absurd demand for their service, then they aren't being managed well. The problem is... who knows? But not fixing your old broken shit and letting execs bleed companies dry is definitely one of those problems...

    27. Re: Dumb by crtreece · · Score: 1

      IT is a cost center which yields 0 return on investment compared to planes

      The proper response to someone who says that is, "How efficiently to you think you can schedule flights, book passengers for them, process them onto a plane, and keep track of all of the above if the IT infrastructure were to all disappear?"

      --
      file: .signature not found
    28. Re:Dumb by keltor · · Score: 1

      If you had say 50% of all air travel headed towards liquidation, the US Government would have been stepping in, when AMR was almost failed and United WAS failed, there were TONS of other flights by other people and there was little doubt that Southwest or the like would have just stepped in and taken over. If Boeing were going into liquidation tomorrow, again the Gov't would have no choice but to step in.

    29. Re:Dumb by lgw · · Score: 4, Interesting

      No one credible would count duplicate equipment in the same data center to be any kind of DR plan at all. That's like confusing RAID with backup. And just like you don't have a backup unless you've tested it, you don't have a DR plan unless you've tested it.

      But a "disaster plan" needn't be limited to IT in any way. Air France had some sort of computing disaster recently, a similarly total outage, but they completed all their scheduled flights (not on schedule, but still). They had a disaster plan involving everyone behind a counter at an airport on the phone to a massive call center, where everything was verified "manually" from offline backup systems (and possibly print-outs). "Is Joe Slashdotter booked for flight 123?" "Give me a minute - yup, let him on the plane." Low tech, but it worked.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    30. Re:Dumb by quetwo · · Score: 2

      The problem with your example of Amazon is that Amazon invests every penny they earn back into the business. Companies like Delta don't. So when there are bad times, Amazon will be much better poised to do well because they've diversified and built up their business to handle it. All it takes is a generator to malfunction and Delta could be out of business forever (yes, a bit of a stretch, but still).

      Delta has a virtual monopoly for a large swath of the nation. You have no choice to fly delta in the midwest and large portions of the south. In recent history, they were never /that/ bad off. In the last market crash, they decided to burn their cash on buying NorthWest instead of modernizing their own systems or investing in their own infrastructure. In the last three years where they've been posting record profits they continued to do cost-cutting measures in all portions of their business, and move money out of the business by paying investors and the execs.

    31. Re:Dumb by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      I can guarantee you that building one of these real world flight reservation systems is about a thousand more times difficult than you think it is. I have first hand knowledge of a major one and smart people tried to replace it and failed. It's managing load balance on planes, it's every detail of the processing of the flight for 24 hours leading up to the flight. It's reservations coming in and being aggregated from other vendors around the world. Every facet of the business and legal requirement is in there, much of which I could not think of.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    32. Re:Dumb by swb · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Were the airlines really in that tough a shape for that long of a period of time?

      If they have only recently returned to profitability and actually experienced extended times of economic uncertainty, how do you explain Boeing outperforming the S&P 500 and gaining 8000% in value since 1978? Overseas sales explain some of it, but not all of it and an extended depression in American airline business you would associate with some decline in Boeing's business, but it's been continuous growth.

      And airports and crowds? Airports I've flown through for 20 years are only bigger and busier than they ever were. I don't remember a time when I thought the airport was too big or empty, either, it's been steady if not increasingly busier and more crowded. Airports all seem to expand, not contract.

      Overall, the aviation sector seems to have done nothing but grown. So how is it exactly that the airlines were truly losing money? I don't doubt they reported low stock prices or reported lower profits on paper, I just don't know that the industry truly shrank and lost money.

      I also remember schemes where airlines went through leveraged buy-outs and the new owners sold off air fleets and then leased them back to the airlines and had them make huge payments to consulting companies owned by the new buyers. I think the airlines got bled dry and then had to fight acquire less parasitic management focused on the business rather than just sucking the capital out of them.

    33. Re:Dumb by lgw · · Score: 1

      Of course, the thing is, when you eventually do reboot them, they take hours to boot all the way up as they perform comprehensive integrity checks (who knows why it was rebooted?).

      Not inherently. The AS/400 (IBMs minicomputer) could do this, because of some bizarre disk optimization requiring effective a full FSCK (or RAID rebuild - either is a sloppy analogy) on an unclean shutdown just to become coherent, but that was an extreme corner case.

      A mainframe won't boot as fast as a OC because there's a lot more hardware to POST, but that's a few minutes, not hours.

      Getting the crews and equipment all prepositioned in the right place and ready to fly is a delicate balance at the best of times and a complete nightmare when you have to start from scratch.

      Any sane DR strategy would ensure all flights get completed (albeit quite late) without the need for recovery of the main system. You don't need to be able to make new reservation, or check status on the internet, to be able to finish each plane's planned journey for the day with the passengers that already have tickets.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    34. Re: Dumb by cyber-vandal · · Score: 1

      Then you'd better make damn sure that doesn't happen or you're fired!

    35. Re:Dumb by bunyip · · Score: 1

      There are no AS/400 systems in there at all. The front end processors were Solaris and then ported to Linux (NOFEP), these replaced the legacy VAX/VMS front end systems (OFEP). Sabre is an independent company, but Travelocity was sold off to Expedia.

    36. Re:Dumb by sjames · · Score: 1

      Thgis is important. They should distribute the key information well in advance to local servers that can handle validating tickets and which flight they go on and simply communicate back confirmation that a given passenger boarded the flight. It may result in less efficient operation and doesn't allow for scheduling new flights or selling additional tickets, but as you say, it allows them to remain functional at some level so they will have fulfilled already promised tickets.

    37. Re: Dumb by sjames · · Score: 1

      Exactly! IT is a profit center as much as anything else since it enables the business to operate. It's a lot cheaper than buildings full of people with adding machines.

    38. Re:Dumb by Daniel+Boisvert · · Score: 1

      Well, mainframe computers have such excellent uptimes (you almost never reboot one) because everything is hot-swappable. CPU failure? Remove the CPU module, insert new one, and continue - all while powered up. The OS takes care of suspending the failed one and scheduling around it. Ditto all other components. Effectively, you should never reboot them.

      That's interesting. My recollection from working on them a bunch of years ago was that our mainframes were IPLed on a regular, scheduled basis, because the folks responsible for them were disciplined about it and wanted to make sure there would be no surprises when one needed to be restarted. The fault tolerance you mention was used to make sure that the scheduled IPL's were the only times they went down though, and I never saw any unplanned downtime on them.

    39. Re: Dumb by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, it has been about that tough for them for a long time. There are a couple of factors that aggravate their situation.
      There are many players in the market, which by definition increases competitive pressure. It is a fundamental tenet of microeconomics that in a truly competitive market, no participant can make economic profits (which are slightly different than accounting profits most of us are familiar with). This drives down their margins.
      They are in a very high 'capital intensity' market. They are stuck with high, recurring costs of capital. This also drives price cutting behavior, because every empty seat is lost revenue.
      They are basically hostage to several environmental factors, including fuel prices, acts of terrorism, and some (moderate) government oversight.
      On a side note, they don't 'report' a stock price, the market provides it for/to them.

    40. Re:Dumb by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Have your heard of Fukushima and Chernobyl? Do you mean east of Japan?... yes, perhaps Pacific Islanders can teach us something.

    41. Re:Dumb by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sabre database model is not built for this.

      Sabre is older than I am. It's descended from SAGE, which my dad worked on.

    42. Re:Dumb by SvnLyrBrto · · Score: 2

      I'm going to go out on a limb, and guess that the people responsible for that mainframe transitioned into the role from conventional rack & stack servers. While that sort of discipline is otherwise admirable; the whole reason that you give IBM the kind of money it takes for them to deliver and support a mainframe is to make that sort of discipline unnecessary. IBM was guaranteeing uptime of 20 *years* back in the S/390 days. And I'm pretty sure it's only gone up from there. Basically, the only time they should be down is if the whole building burns to the ground or is taken away to Oz in a tornado. And, though it was never my job to work on them, I've seen some IBM installations that I could very much believe would survive the rest of the building burning or being blown away.

      --
      Imagine all the people...
    43. Re:Dumb by SvnLyrBrto · · Score: 1

      Airline accounting in the US is like Hollywood accounting. If you don't get yourself a percentage of the gross, not the net, you're screwed. They manipulate the books to appear bankrupt so they can break pilot and stewardes unions and raid their pensions, while nickel-and-diming passengers to death, so the execs can get their multi-million golden parachutes.

      Meanwhile, you can actually fly on Singapore Air... which trades the "best airline in the world" title back and forth with Emirates every year or so... for less than a US carrier, and the experience will be vastly better in every way. Coach on Singapore is better than business on the domestic carriers. And business on Singapore makes the first-class cabin on our carriers look like a decrepit hovel on skid row. I've never flown first-class on Singapore, but just look at the pictures. And you don't see stories about *them* going bankrupt every few years. Same with Emirates, and Cathay Pacific, and EVA, and Quantas, and ANA, and so on and so on.

      --
      Imagine all the people...
    44. Re:Dumb by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 1

      The VAX to IBM SNA mainframe is already an ungodly mix!

      How early are we talking. I saw this stuff in about 98 and we were bringing some of the first *nix in the mix. We had pod in different data centers than the legacy, but ran Stronghold Apache and ATG Dynamo in 1999.

      --
      "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
      Never been known to fail..."
    45. Re:Dumb by SvnLyrBrto · · Score: 1

      ^ This, so very much this. It seems like every week or so, I notice something new in the AWS console. A new feature, or service, or region...

      Just today, I noticed that they've recently added a new class of ELB that works at the application level instead of the TCP layer. Device farm also caught me by surprise when it went online. I've a buddy who does QA on mobile who'd not seen it before either, and the look on his face when I showed it to him was priceless.

      (Though I'm still a bit annoyed that EFS stayed in "preview" for so long before going life.)

      --
      Imagine all the people...
    46. Re:Dumb by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      Were the airlines really in that tough a shape for that long of a period of time?

      If they have only recently returned to profitability and actually experienced extended times of economic uncertainty, how do you explain Boeing outperforming the S&P 500 and gaining 8000% in value since 1978?

      You do understand that Boeing is not an airline? As always, the money isn't in panning for gold - it's in selling the pans. Not to mention drawing a straight line between 1978 and 2017 misses some deep valleys in between. Not to mention Boeing does a lot more than just commercial airliners.
       

      And airports and crowds? Airports I've flown through for 20 years are only bigger and busier than they ever were. I don't remember a time when I thought the airport was too big or empty, either, it's been steady if not increasingly busier and more crowded. Airports all seem to expand, not contract.

      It's quite possible for volume to go up and margin to go down, or even go negative at times. Aircraft cab cost more than budgeted. Fuel prices can go up more than predicted. Cutting margin to the bone to compete on popular routes can turn a cash cow into hamburger. Etc... etc...

    47. Re:Dumb by smpoole7 · · Score: 1

      Didn't have time to look up the others, but Singapore Air is supported by the government of Singapore. They own over 40% of the airline, according to Wikipedia.

      Not taking away from them, I know they're good and have a great reputation. But you're not exactly comparing apples to apples if you try to compare Singapore with, say, Delta or United.

      --
      Cogito, igitur comedam pizza.
    48. Re:Dumb by ed1park · · Score: 1

      Then they should have switched. The cost of switching was probably a fraction of the direct and indirect costs of what happened.

    49. Re:Dumb by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My company (Fortune 50) has 2 data centers (east coast and central) with what is supposedly full redundancy.

      The VP and Dept head was part of a DR conference and was asked about fail over. To our surprise (and a bit of laughter) its NEVER been tested. Sure some load balancers would shift the load due to down servers but the mainframes themselves never had a test to see if they could take the load of the entire enterprise and if scheduled jobs would run, was the data replicating etc etc.

      To date our DR drills are basically table reads. No one has actually failed us over, and no on really knows if it works.

      I'm sure that it doesn't as I read constant outage reports that should have never happened.

      Oh well, I also know that our company is not alone.... on paper we are DR proof. In real life I most likely won't even answer the phone.. the clusterfuck would be immense and visible from space.

    50. Re: Dumb by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      i fucking hated working for sabre, travelocity was cool though

    51. Re:Dumb by Bender0x7D1 · · Score: 1

      One problem with a global business is WHEN do you test the failover?

      Early Sunday morning in Atlanta? Well, it's the middle of the day on Monday in Japan, Australia, and a lot of other countries. Of course, because of business travelers, Monday is probably one of the worst days of the week for an airline to run a test - despite it being Sunday somewhere else.

      Sometimes, there is no good solution, and you end up continuing with what you have because anything else is an even worse idea.

      --
      Reading code is like reading the dictionary - you have to read half of it before you can go back and understand it.
    52. Re:Dumb by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For a major airline, the potential benefits of a Sabre re-capitalization are down in the noise, compared to the operational efficiency of a few dozen new 737 MAX's or Airbus A320NEO's. Airlines have (quite sensibly) invested what war-chest they had in fleet re-capitalization..

    53. Re: Dumb by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Delta incident completely grounded their fleet for 3 hours, and was a mess for a 2 or 3 days afterwards as they recovered. A literal drop in the bucket compared to the fuel and maintenance savings they'll get from the 200 or so new airliners they currently have on order.

  2. If it isn't broke... by TFlan91 · · Score: 1

    If it isn't broke, don't fix it. .... Wait. It is breaking, but you aren't fixing it?

    Anyway.... Why is it breaking to begin with? Age isn't a problem in IT, are they adding features that can't integrate with this system? Are there too many transactions? What gives?

    1. Re:If it isn't broke... by LWATCDR · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The Delta outage was caused by a power outage. Seems like TPF is not the problem.
      Considering how well this 1960s tech seems to be working replacing it may and doing it better may not all that easy.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    2. Re:If it isn't broke... by rot26 · · Score: 1

      The problem is likely that the average age of their programming staff is 20-something. They're morons.

      --



      To ensure perfect aim, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target
    3. Re:If it isn't broke... by Black+Parrot · · Score: 1

      I read somewhere that one of the airlines' problem was simple lack of redundancy of a power transmission switch. Not an IT problem at all, unless IT was responsible for the power.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    4. Re:If it isn't broke... by Jason+Levine · · Score: 2

      Age can be a problem in IT if your system was designed for 1960's travel habits/workload and now has to cope with 2016 travel habits/workload.

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    5. Re: If it isn't broke... by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1

      It most certainly is an IT and business process failure. No redundancy? If system is too old to be clustered then I disagree with grandparent if it ain't broke don't fix it. Problem is it is!

      There is a book out there called if it ain't broke break it! The death of any incompetent company is the one who follows if it ain't broke don't fix it. Successful turnarounds are never from companies who fear change and only do what works. It is those who change mindsets and actions.

    6. Re:If it isn't broke... by Mal-2 · · Score: 1

      But it was overhauled a decade ago (after 9/11 so it should account for those changes), the vendor is still in business and in reasonably good condition, and new hardware to run the software is still being made. When it comes to legacy systems, this one is practically a luxury item.

      No, the problem is finances. The solutions exist, they just don't want to pay for them. How's that race to the bottom doing for you guys now?

      --
      How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
    7. Re:If it isn't broke... by funwithBSD · · Score: 1

      One of the things that has changed is that back before the internet and sites like Kayak, Orbitz, etc the query rate for free seats and ticket prices was in the 1000s per hour.

      With automated scrapers, those queries have gone into the millions per hour and it keeps climbing.

      What you see now is TPM based mainframes with lots of middleware systems acting as buffers to handle the requests without querying the mainframe.

      --
      Never answer an anonymous letter. - Yogi Berra
    8. Re:If it isn't broke... by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      There's some merit to that as an architecture, even without the legacy problem. Having the mainframe dump transactions and schedules to a web front-end is probably the next-best thing to an air-gap.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    9. Re:If it isn't broke... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Standard problem: people have internalised the newer is better mantra. They don't stop to ask why, or what the actual problem was (ie a power outage) - just "old bad, need new with buzz".

      Besides as a manager "spearheaded major upgrade" sounds better than "made sensible decision and added a UPS".

    10. Re:If it isn't broke... by bugs2squash · · Score: 1

      Exactly, just because copper was discovered 11,000 years ago it does not mean they need to replace the electrical wiring with a new element. If it was working efficiently last year there is no reason to believe it won't continue to work if it is looked after by good, well compensated staff.

      --
      Nullius in verba
    11. Re:If it isn't broke... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Some people did experiment with aluminium house wiring. The results were... unfortunate. Google it.

  3. Aging? by sexconker · · Score: 5, Insightful

    What's wrong with aging tech? If most airlines are on TPF and TPF works and TPF is still maintained by IBM, what's the problem with TPF?
    Something being old doesn't mean it's bad. Quite often, the reverse is true. The mainframe is still the king when it comes to reliability and transaction integrity, for example.

    1. Re:Aging? by geek · · Score: 2

      What's wrong with aging tech? If most airlines are on TPF and TPF works and TPF is still maintained by IBM, what's the problem with TPF?
      Something being old doesn't mean it's bad. Quite often, the reverse is true. The mainframe is still the king when it comes to reliability and transaction integrity, for example.

      It's not "mobile first, cloud first" as my boss would say .................

    2. Re:Aging? by avandesande · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      If it isn't implemented with ROR or Node it is garbage.

      --
      love is just extroverted narcissism
    3. Re:Aging? by doconnor · · Score: 1

      It wouldn't be a problem if nothing changed, but as the posting pointed out new features are constantly being added and if those features weren't considered when the system was first designed they set up being kludges. When you're piling kludge on top of kludge for 50 years, it can get really bad. So bad that one day you have to reboot and it doesn't work and no one knows why.

      Sometime you just have to refactor. You can still keep any code that still works well (usually because it was refactored more recently).

    4. Re:Aging? by rmullig2 · · Score: 2

      "What's wrong with aging tech?" The documentation isn't written in Hindi.

    5. Re:Aging? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I thought that was what IBM did a while back. From the ground up rebuild to get everything back to an updated square one.

    6. Re:Aging? by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 1
      What? Desi coders read documentation? I thought the standard operating procedure for desi shops is to mark the project done, when it compiles. It does not run? File defect report!

      They have gone a level above, test-driven-development to user filed critical defects driven development. Why pay for QA when the users will do the testing for free?

      --
      sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
    7. Re:Aging? by doconnor · · Score: 1

      Sounds like they just rewrote the operating system. Necessary to keep it running on newer hardware, but probably just a faction of the code.

    8. Re:Aging? by lamer01 · · Score: 1

      I worked with TPF back in the late 80s/early 90s. Trust me, it needs to go. I am shocked they are still using it.There was a reason for it when it was invented. Airlines had to interact with thousands of travel agent terminals around the world and the system had to be fast. Hardware was not up to snuff back then. I remember our production mainframe was rate at 120 MIPS and I thought it was amazing at the time. Thus TPF was born. Very close to the metal OS. Slightest programmer error can crash the whole thing. No one in their right mind would use anything like that today. But, I don't think the outage was due to TPF. Although a cloud-based (even an on-premises, multi datacenter) solution would definitely have avoided their woes.

    9. Re:Aging? by magarity · · Score: 1

      "What's wrong with aging tech?"The documentation isn't written in Hindi.

      In order to pacify the "old code is still perfectly usable!" crowd I write all my documentation in cuniform

    10. Re:Aging? by ADRA · · Score: 1

      Its monstrously expensive to manage and maintain for one. Its essentially impossible to change, so adding new features also becomes monstrously expensive. I know some companies cut checks for millions per month. Consider that. Any industry run through oligopoly is charging huge premiums for the right. Making a new res system would probably cost upwards of 100mil, and you're not even guaranteed of a successful project in the end.

      --
      Bye!
    11. Re:Aging? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Look, I want to agree with you. Old code can be perfectly good code.

      Here's where the problems start though. If the code is old enough, it predates even Structured Programming, and SP was basically a reaction against many of the unmanageable coding practices that were commonly, routinely, near universally practiced. What sloppy coding practices? In no particular order:

      - little or no code comments;
      - what little commentary exists, doesn't follow any template or standard;
      - excessive use of GOTO;
      - failure to modularize functions, even when ample opportunity for this exists;
      - the result was spaghetti code to the max;
      - some languages (notably, not COBOL) had early syntactical forms that were massively abbreviated. Think single character verbs. It saved computer resources but was a bitch to read;
      - variable names. Where to start? It was nothing to see the variables a,b,c and x,y,z, and variants of this by the thousand. Intelligible variable names were a rarity;
      - no external documentation. Sometimes it had existed but was lost over time. Mostly though, it was never created;

      Also, mainframes use a reliability style that is, er, largely out of style. The mainframe philosophy is to get the hardware and software quality just right. Bugs are corruption and must be stamped out!! Most modern computing architectures spend a lot more time on fault tolerance, rather than just fault prevention. It's not a binary either/or, so don't flame me. And yes, I'm aware of Tandem, SysPlex, VaxClusters and all the rest.

      The result is that mainframes rarely sell to new businesses. Also, new software systems are rarely created on mainframes anymore. The mainframe is a legacy and maintenance business and it's a fantasy to say otherwise. No matter how much IBM wants to sell the "MIPS Shipped" story.

    12. Re: Aging? by cyber-vandal · · Score: 1

      It's not webscale.

  4. Southwest by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Southwest airlines reservation system is run off a IBM System/360 mainframe they inherited from Pan-Am. I'd be surprised if there was another functioning unit anywhere else in the word. You could probably emulate the whole damn thing on cell phone.

    1. Re:Southwest by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are actually thousands of IBM mainframe installations in the world today, and the hardware is very modern and constantly being updated. You probably use them without knowing every time you access your bank or insurance information online.

    2. Re:Southwest by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, but that's a *modern* IBM mainframe.

      Southwest literally runs on a bare-metal, no shit, IBM S/360. I know this because I'm an electrician and I've serviced the location where this computer is installed.

  5. Automation has it's price after all by bobbied · · Score: 1

    Who's surprised by this? In the quest for the lowest fare possible, who has money for preventing something that "might* happen that keeps aircraft on the ground, say like a power outage in your computer center? Apparently NOT Delta.. I'm guessing most of the other carriers too, they've just not been lucky enough.

    Makes you wonder about all that expensive aircraft maintenance really getting done...

    Think of that next time you strap one of their aircraft on for a few hours..

    --
    "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
  6. What? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I thought the Delta failure was related to a transfer switch failure and the Southwest failure was attributed to a router failure. What does that have to do with using TPS on a mainframe?

    1. Re:What? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I thought the Delta failure was related to a transfer switch failure and the Southwest failure was attributed to a router failure. What does that have to do with using TPS on a mainframe?

      Dunno, but the datacenters I run are primarily built using Flexpod design, and if a router goes belly up the users won't even notice. Network, power, bandwidth, etc. are all at the very least double-redundant, and many things are quadruple redundant. Servers are running in virtualization clusters, so we can lose pretty big chunks of equipment and everything just keeps chugging along. Because it was all designed to be failsafe from the ground up.

      I'm not familiar with the TPS mainframe solution, but there's a possibility that their overall system design simply cannot be built without one or more single-point failure scenarios. It's also possible that the loss of part of the system can create some type of "sync" issue where simply replacing the failed pieces and bringing them back online is not easy, smooth, or at all graceful.

    2. Re:What? by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      What does that have to do with using TPS on a mainframe?

      Wrong fucking cover sheet was used. That's what's it has to do with it!

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    3. Re: What? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nice.

    4. Re: What? by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      I got downmodded for an Office Space reference. What has /. fallen to?

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
  7. interfacing with DHS by elcor · · Score: 1

    aging tech isn't the reason. The reason is the airlines have to interface with department of "homeland security" as per FAA demand and that's a big mess.

  8. Re:is it that complex? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ^--Clearly you've never had a job in the real world with your "how hard can that be" attitude.

  9. That's greed for you by H3lldr0p · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Always short sighted and thinking tomorrow will be the same as today.

    What I'm afraid of is this business / investment / management continues to infect the rest of the world. I can't wait until all of the stock markets are controlled by algorithmic trading, with the next quarter's number the sole goal.

    1. Re: That's greed for you by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1

      LOL

      They are. Supercomputers do a check and both buy and sell a stock at the same time to set the price at high frequency volumes. What you think a person actually trades today?

      Only 90 days count for the CEOs to beat the computer to get their bonus

    2. Re:That's greed for you by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Always short sighted and thinking tomorrow will be the same as today.

      The people who cause these clusterfucks see far enough in the future to "earn" their bonus and think that tomorrow they'll abandon ship before it goes down.

      I'd say that it was management's fault for looking at someone who's previously tanked a company and hiring them (thinking he's got "management experience"), but the company is full of these parasites all the way to the top. As long as the company's doors are still open, there's some value left to be stripped from it and more "management" lining up to profit from the disassembly.

  10. Grapplings by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What's that? Trouble grappling with aging technology?

    Don't you mean - having trouble grappling with H1B's that are moving up that pay scale? Never seemed to have such problems with "aging technology" in decades past when new tech was coming out every decade.....

  11. Fire caused by old reservation system? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Talk about correlation not being causation, was slashdot ever good?

  12. The Sky is Falling! The Sky is Falling! by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 0

    Don't be surprised if the airline industry lobbyists are hounding President Clinton for a government bailout in 2017.

  13. SSDD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The companies are installing luggage tracking.... 40 years after it was needed.
    Mobile Apps - because the latest buzzword has to be important...
    All of this is just paint for the creaky old barn - it needs rebuilding.

    Maybe, for example, they should hire a few programmers who develop porn websites, where the
    flow of information is 24/7 - 365 and credit cards work, and such, on a scale that surpasses the airline reservations system...

    And maybe invest in switchover-backup systems and new datacenters so business is 24/7-365 instead of 23/6.9 - 361.
    And not be so short-sighted about investment versus profit maximization. Delta will pay/lose much more than they gained
    because of their lack of a philosophy for the long run ( 3-10 years versus next quarter ).

  14. I call BS by wcrowe · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is bullshit. Software does not "age" the same way that a car or a washing machine ages. The hardware can age, but the hardware can be replaced, and in this case we are talking about IBM software and hardware, which has a long-standing reputation for reliability and for maintaining backwards compatibility.

    I think the more likely story is that the interfaces to these systems are being compromised. That's why it's happening, first at one airline, then another. Someone, somewhere is fucking around with the airlines' reservation systems.

    I think these stories about "fires" and "aging" software is covering up for the fact that these systems are getting hacked. If people start to lose confidence in the systems they'll fly less or stop flying altogether.

    --
    Proverbs 21:19
    1. Re:I call BS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Software doesn't age, but the hardware it runs on will eventually become obsolete and you won't find parts anymore. Non-open-source solutions usually have the same problem - the corporate entities that prop them up can go out of business and software becomes pinned by the fact that its owner doesn't exist anymore. Obsolete software. Languages can lose favor, like Java did. Nothing in the computing world is base truth and legacy code really is the code that you just finished typing (by the way there's a new version of that DLL now...).

      All software has defects but if we don't keep the development effort running constantly then eventually these defects get discovered...usually by hackers. Even road-workers get some credit for keeping roads drivable but keeping software going is seen as cost. Refactoring can drive down those costs but that's seen as unnecessary work. Can't win.

    2. Re:I call BS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    3. Re:I call BS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Considering that almost all major corporations still run code from 1960's in mainframe enviorments i find this comment.. rather amusing...

    4. Re:I call BS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm rather amused on these coder's whom often goes that how stuff should be made again and again from zero after certain time has passed...
      hell often the old mainframe systems stays running despite modernization of systems is successfull according coders&higher ups, but the peasant workers just stick to old dabase&stuffs becouse they dont really feel like wrestling with system that cant list items correctly and is half-ready, but sold as ready... worst-case scenario i've seen is 4 systems doing supposedly samething... and the most horrible to use in modern sense... is actually most usefull to regular workers in production lines... it's scary stuff :D

    5. Re:I call BS by ADRA · · Score: 1

      The worst thing a res system can do is stop you from boarding a plane, any maybe to allow bad actors to avoid mandatory pre-screenings.

      --
      Bye!
    6. Re:I call BS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      sure software ages, e.g. Y2K. I'm waiting for the 2038 shitshow.

  15. Re:is it that complex? by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 0

    The late Dan Weinreb had a great presentation on ITA's effort to build their own reservation system named Polaris. If I recall correctly, the basic problem was the cornucopia of input formats in which the relevant airline data is being periodically updated, all of them being "mainframey", with all the idiosyncrasies it entails. It's a clusterfuck. I wonder if the reservations themselves aren't a comparatively simple part of the whole thing.

    --
    Ezekiel 23:20
  16. Ignorant managers don't recognize their ignorance. by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 1

    It is likely that many airline managers have no knowledge of technology, but like to make decisions anyway.

    Also, managers are dominant. They hire low-pay employees and don't train them so that they can make more money. Yesterday's Delta story: Delta Air Lines employees mistake New Mexico for Mexico (Aug 11, 2016)

  17. Re:is it that complex? by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

    He's not technically wrong, you know. You probably could build a reservation system like that. Even a decent one, perhaps. Just not one that could deal with all the hard crap that needs to be dealt with, especially interfacing. (Hell, I even remember one that we were doing at a programming competition when I was like nine or so. In BASIC. On an eight bit home computer. But that's obviously several degrees lower still...)

    --
    Ezekiel 23:20
  18. So, which is it? by GerryGilmore · · Score: 1

    While it's true that the technology itself is "dated", so is Unix. Also, as TFS mentions: " is still updated by IBM, which did a major rewrite of the operating system about a decade ago." Of course, they could do a RAD/SCRUM/No-SQL/Other-Buzzword-compliant technology rebuild and achieve the same results, with no downtime and seamless transitioning, right? Right?

    1. Re:So, which is it? by jittles · · Score: 1

      While it's true that the technology itself is "dated", so is Unix. Also, as TFS mentions: " is still updated by IBM, which did a major rewrite of the operating system about a decade ago." Of course, they could do a RAD/SCRUM/No-SQL/Other-Buzzword-compliant technology rebuild and achieve the same results, with no downtime and seamless transitioning, right? Right?

      I guarantee you they can duplicate Monday's results. That's about all I can guarantee.

    2. Re:So, which is it? by funwithBSD · · Score: 1

      I can tell you that they try that with every major change in technology, and it usually fails.

      One of the problems is that those old systems got to grow with the business, getting fine tuned along the way.

      The new systems have to work right, and work right starting with drinking from the firehose.

      --
      Never answer an anonymous letter. - Yogi Berra
  19. Re:is it that complex? by HBI · · Score: 2

    Sounds awfully much like the old e-mail form that used to get passed around every time someone had a solution for spam.

    Disclaimer: I used to work on what is essentially a middleware message processor for military use. It supported dozens of different inputs from myriad systems, some indeed "mainframey". The failing of the system wasn't the system itself - it was rock solid, UNIX based, and had decent hardware and procedures for maintaining maximal uptime in crappy environmental conditions. The ancillary systems that provided message feeds, on the other hand, weren't so reliable, and when they failed, guess who got blamed?

    I suspect airline reservation systems probably are in the same boat.

    --
    HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
  20. self servingly lies by Lead+Butthead · · Score: 2

    continuous complaint about times are bad or union is rendering the business unprofitable has never stopped their officers from drawing ever larger compensation packages, nor has it prevented their board from approving those compensation packages. to claim that there's no money to reinvest into company infrastructure is but a self serving lie.

    --
    ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI!?
  21. Taxes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Airline profits are 1% of every ticket.
    40% is taxes. That is why they have no money.

  22. "good years" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Most airlines were on the verge of going out of business for many years, so investment of any kind had to have short pay-back periods,"

    You really only see this type of thinking in the West. Most sensible companies know that when times are good, you build a war chest, when they are bad you invest the war chest to grow your business and be competitive. The problem wasn't that times were bad. You can always say times are bad. The problem was that they didn't make the best of things when times were good, and therefore deserve the cluster fuck situation they are in now.

    Do you know how to become a millionaire in the airline industry? Start off as a billionaire and then my an airline.

    Generally speaking there are / were few-to-no good times over the past few decades. Most airlines have declared bankruptcy (sometimes more than once).

    Seriously: I have no idea why anyone would want to be a shareholder as the ROI tends to be negative.

  23. Re:is it that complex? by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

    The first programming book I checked out from the library before I owned a computer in 1983 was COBOL programming. Payroll was the killer app in the 1960's.

  24. article is rubbish by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In the Delta example, the problem was having the primary and backup servers in the same physical datacenter. This isn't an "aging technology" problem. It's a bad management decision problem. Professionals have known for decades that the failover server need to be physically located somewhere else. Article is just clickbait nonsense.

  25. Re:is it that complex? by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 1

    Based on my experience in the late 90's, to "webify" the access to these systems, you pretty much have it.

    --
    "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
    Never been known to fail..."
  26. Re:is it that complex? by dysmal · · Score: 1

    ...and 60 years later most companies still can't get this shit right.

  27. What's actually going on here... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...is that some salespeople are trying to take advantage of one rare period of downtime to hawk unnecessary software, maybe possibly fixing something that's broken but introducing a thousand other bugs in the process.

    It's reworded neutrally to look like a piece of journalism, but that's good salesmanship for you.

  28. Maybe Cut Back On The Ads? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When automated check-in kiosks were new they were easy, just type in your number (scanner never worked), select baggage, and go. Now more than every other page is an ad. Do you want to change seats on your first flight? Second flight? Add trip insurance? Buy an earlier place in line? Add rental insurance? An earlier place for your second flight? Are you sure you don't want to upgrade your seating? How about you change your class instead? These people paid us money to show you their logos. Look at these hotel and rental car brands. Are you done looking? Your plane is extra small so you'll have to check your luggage. Our airline credit card is giving you 50,000 free miles (I actually took that offer, but not from the kiosk. It saved me $470). Are you sure you don't have explosives? How about little kids? Sign up for this service and you're magically not carrying anything bad so you can go through the TSA-Pre line. Add $50 for the executive lounge that's 80% empty with leather couches and big chairs while people are standing downstairs because they've run out of chairs. Etc...

    Kiosks are so fucking annoying. Ok, so all those things bring in $$$ for the airlines, but their service is crap and is just getting shittier and shittier while Greyhound's buses are getting nicer and nicer. They've added all the crap onto their existing systems, removing it should lighten its load.

    At least the last few times I've flown I didn't hear the "Do not leave your baggage unattended" messages. Or maybe I've just completely tuned them out.

  29. I work in Dallas, Airline software is cancer. by netsavior · · Score: 0

    Working as a developer in Dallas, TX... Every team I have ever been on has contained at least one bass-ackward programmer who "used to work at southwest" and liked to poison our source control with garbage. "The Southwest way!"

    Every time I have been looking for a job, 3 or 4 recruitroaches would call me daily about 3 month contracts with Southwest!!! great place to work!!!!111!!!.

    you know you only get the primo talent when you are only willing to budget for 3 months of work at a time.

    I used to work with a guy who claims to have written part of their wildly complex "fare forecasting" software, you could probably imagine how shitty his code was to work with.
    He's the kind of asshole who would do a bit shift in a SQL statement instead of multiplying by 2 because it was faster that way on 1950s hardware.

    1. Re:I work in Dallas, Airline software is cancer. by ADRA · · Score: 0

      I don't know about Southwest itself, but fare forecasting is basically a white rhino, it doesn't exist. 8 years ago I worked at a fare management company who's job was basically a simpler view of what the fuck the company (and competitors) were doing with the industry, because some airlines didn't even do that much (fire anf forget fare management.

      Some business leaders and I (programming) demo'd predictive/trending fares into the product, but it went nowhere because nobody was asking for it, and nobody wanted to pay. The fare analysts are terrified of computers replacing them, and their managers don't have a fucking clue how much money they're throwing on the ground due to poorly prices fares.. good times. Of course you could also blame our sales/marketing for not seeing the advantage such a tool could bring to table in the market.

      --
      Bye!
  30. Age... Well, maybe, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There's probably a huge swathe of shit for brains IT/developers who have no clue as to the business model, the requirements or for that matter the ability to design large scale systems. But hey, nothing another majestic herd of H1B's or similar couldn't solve.

  31. Re:is it that complex? by im_thatoneguy · · Score: 5, Informative

    Reservation system could be implemented in chapter 10 of your first programming book. It seems trivial thing?

    It's actually really really complex.

    It's not just a "reservation system" where you lock out a ticketed space for X seconds until someone completes a transaction. You really have to view it as "The Company" when you're talking about airlines. Let's say a pilot has been in the air too long due to a delayed departure in New York. He hits his max flight time for the next 24 hours but he was scheduled to fly from his destination to another leg. So now you need to replace the pilot. Which pilot? Well there is a plane coming into the airport around the same time as the NY flight. But is that pilot rated to fly that same aircraft? Ok he is, great. But because 30 of the 300 passengers are going to miss their connections now because of the delayed arrival they need to be moved to different flights. But those flights are maxed out. So you have to bump some passengers on a scheduled flight and move them to a later flight as well. Because the plane is getting in late it's also going to depart late. So you also need to either arrange all of the passengers at the next destination to be on different flights and set of a chain reaction or you need to pull in a different plane at the 2nd destination to short circuit the chain reaction. But where can you get a plane from for the cheapest? And how much will it cost to put people up in a hotel vs flying an extra crew in on overtime?

    This is all simple enough to calculate with like 1-2 planes. But when you have 1,000 aircraft and all of the seat assignments effectively being interdependent along with business interests (profit/loss of changes), customer service interests such as ticket class... and you have to stay up to date instantaneously with dozens of terminals all trying to do the same thing manually in addition to the automatic callbacks for unexpected events... it's big engineering effort to not create some sort of automatic-trading style feedback loop that accidentally sets off a chain reaction that cancels every flight in the country.

    Every change has a cost. No human can orchestrate thousands of interdependent variables with millions of passengers manually. You have to have a central director system which instantaneously handles all of the callbacks and dependencies for a change throughout the entire graph.

    It's actually very cool when you stop and think about how well it does at keeping everything relatively straight.

  32. Re:is it that complex? by orlanz · · Score: 1

    The UN once wanted a single simple reservation system. The concept was simple, and the requirements were very simple compared to what most people would assume. Users were equivalent to a small international employee base... all could do English. Vendors were very few and contracts were simple.

    Except it had ONE requirement that made it impossible: There should be ONE standard.

    Simple enough, except each party said "Yes, we demand one standard, as long is its ours."

    Never underestimate the shear stupidity of the human mind and its confusion of want and need.

  33. Complete and utter bullshit by gweilo8888 · · Score: 1

    Even the industry lobbyists don't make the ridiculous claims you do, but instead say profit margin is 3% and taxes are 21%. (http://airlines.org/media/ticket-cost-breakdown/) And you can pretty much guarantee even those figures are crap.

    A casual glance, for example, at Delta's 2015 FY statement shows total operating revenue of $28,898 million, and net income of $4,526 million -- that's 11% profit, inclusive of cargo. Looking at passenger traffic specifically, they show an operating cost per available seat mile of 13.33 cents, and a passenger mile yield of 16.59 cents. That's a 24%+ profit margin.

    Yes, that's looking at the most profitable US airline specifically, but your numbers are complete hogwash even if you look at the others. The US airline industry is posting record profits -- about US$22 billion between American, Southwest, Delta and United last year -- and has plenty of money to invest in its future if it wants to. But you can pretty much guarantee it won't, because it will rely on a bailout to save its ass again if the profits dry up.

  34. Ugh by sootman · · Score: 4, Informative

    Do reporters even read these stories as they are writing them?!? "Airlines will likely suffer more disruptions like the one that grounded about 2,000 Delta flights this week because major carriers have not invested enough to overhaul reservations systems based on technology dating to the 1960s... [TPF] is still updated by IBM, which did a major rewrite of the operating system about a decade ago."

    Big, complicated system, written by a big, experienced company, still maintained... Do they think we'd be better off if it were rewritten from the ground up as a Ruby on Rails app or something?

    Psst, I don't want to cause a panic, but I heard that large, important chunks of the Internet run UNIX, which also dates back to the '60s.

    --
    Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
    1. Re:Ugh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is the likely fix the old is bad crowd is going to deploy:

      if old then
            res=bad;
      else /*
            todo
            what is res ???
      */
      fi

  35. Matches what I've seen with all logistics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Pretty much every logistics network I've come across is the same. Systems as old as I am, running in some forgotten cabinet that nobody has even laid eyes on in years because someone tweaked it til it was unkillable. Instead of going to the trouble of finding the box, they just built new software on top of the interface. In the event that someone did find the box, well the software vendor disappeared a decade ago, so the best we could do without gutting the entire stack was to host it on a VM. And hey, the stack NEEDED gutting, but who's going to sign off on that?

    The worst are the goofy, home-grown solutions to integrate legacy and modern systems on the client side. Someone said "release early and release often" but as soon as the bugs in the first live version get fixed, development abruptly ceases.

    Couriers, workshops, airlines apparently, they're all the same.

  36. Missing the point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The article about TPF was fundamentally flawed. Using a former CIO from United who was replaced because he didn't do his job as your anchor for your premise that TPF was at the root was foolish. The writer obviously didn't fact check and let his article hand on the quotes of a disgraced former CIO and allowed the message to imply that TPF was and is going to be the cause of future failures. So far we've all been able to read that common between all of the failures, not just the Delta and Southwest ones of late, are actually faulty disaster recovery plans. If the plans were sound and tested, then when invoked they would have worked. In these cases they didn't. The TPF systems are designed to recover quickly and aren't going to be down for 6 hours - no architecture team would allow it to be set up that way, with the exception of Bob Edwards' team at United.

  37. important things often neglected by marmot7 · · Score: 1

    We have perfectly tuned devices and VR on the way but fly a metal tube a few thousand miles just isn't worth the trouble to get right. It's other basic infrastructure, too, people will pull all nighters to get an app done but nobody's pulling all nighters to make sure the drinking water's clean and the bridges are sound.

  38. This is what you get with offshored support. by sethstorm · · Score: 1

    Combine the worst qualities of offshoring & agency labor with the worst of legacy systems and you get this disaster.

    --
    Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
  39. Why old systems should be bad? by manu0601 · · Score: 1

    It seems we assume old systems should be bad. I am not sure modern stuff is more reliable than what was produced decades ago.

  40. STOCK PUMP AND DUMP AIRLINES + contracts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    NSA coordinated the Delta flight interruption. Now suddenly on FBI slashdot they anticipate more.

    Investors salivate... wow that could be contracts...

    Remember the airline shorts of 9/11/2001? Just some innocent folks herding goats on camel back no worries friends.

  41. Re:is it that complex? by smpoole7 · · Score: 1

    The issue isn't simple number crunching and database retrieval, it's the fact that it's global.

    --
    Cogito, igitur comedam pizza.
  42. MOD PARENT UP by rsmith-mac · · Score: 1

    The parent is spot on.

    And just to add to that, until their recent run of profitability, the last time the airlines as a whole were consistently profitable was in the 1990s, before the dot-com bubble popped. Between roughly 2001 and 2011, they cumulatively lost money (the one bright spot was 2006, but of course the Great Recession hit).

    http://web.mit.edu/airlines/analysis/analysis_airline_industry.html (apologies for the tiny image, but historical data more than 5 years out is typically paywalled).

    It wasn't until we exited the Great Recession, airlines started charging for food and bags, and airlines did more to increase the passenger load factor (percentage of seats that are filled) to historically crazy levels that they finally became profitable as they have been in the past few years. Until then, even in decently good times, the underlying costs were pulling them down. Too many pilots and attendants drawing too high of a salary, too many flights going out less than full (i.e. too much spare capacity), etc.

    So you can imagine why airlines weren't in any rush to invest in high cost, risky IT upgrade projects. When you're trying to just stay in the black, any optional cost not part of the core business (flying) is a risk.

  43. Not Defending Delta, But ... by smpoole7 · · Score: 1

    Maybe they do need to upgrade their systems. And actually, Delta is making a profit right now. Maybe they have the money, maybe not. I don't know.

    Final disclaimer: I don't know the details of what caused Delta's meltdown. But I'll share my own, much smaller-scaled personal experience to let you know why I shall at least hesitate before pointing fingers at the airline.

    I work for the best company in US radio broadcasting. (Personal opinion, but there you go.) (Heh.) We are willing to spend the money on new equipment and systems to keep our radio stations on air. We have a backup generator at our studios and UPS units on all critical systems. They're tested and serviced frequently.

    We've had severe storms in our region (I'm in Birmingham, Delta is in Atlanta) lately. We have had power failures where the AC will flicker on, off, on, off, rapidly, for several seconds, then finally die. Speaking from experience, this can cause all sorts of problems. (Don't believe me? Plug your favorite UPS into an outlet strip and toggle the AC on and off, on and off, while it's under load. Don't be surprised if it finally barfs.)

    At any rate: our generator controller got confused and refused to crank the genset and a couple of critical UPS units shut off. I won't bore you with the details, but by any definition, it was a low probability event. We fixed it, we got back on air, and I designed a mod for our 10-year old Kohler generator controller. In fact, I'm ordering the parts now.

    Here's the point: it's always something. If you lock the doors, the bad guys come through the window. If you bar the windows, they'll chop a hole in the ceiling. It's a never-ending battle. You examine the failure, do a post-mortem, then figure out a way to prevent it from happening again ... and THEN, wait for the next Big Bite(tm). :)

    So ... maybe Delta mighta-shoulda spent some money to prevent their failure from happening. I'm not going to say that they've invested the money to ensure that what happened shouldn't have happened. But I'm also prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt. :)

    --
    Cogito, igitur comedam pizza.
  44. Focusing on the wrong systems by dottrap · · Score: 1

    "But they have avoided the steep cost of rebuilding their reservations systems from the ground up,"

    As somebody who had family affected by the Southwest outage 3 weeks ago, the reservation system was one of systems that remained up the longest. Southwest still could happily take your money even if nobody was going anywhere. (I suspect they manually took it down later it became clear the day was lost.)

    Focusing on the reservation system sounds like a contractor lobbying to sell something...

     

  45. Re:is it that complex? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    greybeards that wrote original are on pension on somewhere else. There is no competence available here so it will all be offshored to a company that lied it knows it all. That is if managers are insane. If they are sane they will not let this shit be rewriten completely at all unless they will be forced to. They will do small updates till kingdom come.

  46. Cost of upgrades vs biting the bullet by ed1park · · Score: 1

    "Henry Harteveldt, founder of the travel consultancy Atmosphere Research Group, said some airlines are choosing to risk outages that might cost them $20 million to $40 million rather than invest, for example, $100 million on technology upgrades. He believes investors and the general public will apply increasing pressure on airlines to avoid outages at any cost."

    How much did this cost Delta? Both directly and indirectly.

    How much will preventing this single point of failure cost?

  47. 'Strategic bad times? by martrootamm · · Score: 1

    That reserves cannot be built up, looks like an inherent vulnerability in the system.

  48. maybe air travel needs to go the way of the dinosa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    fucking polluting noisy bullshit meant for busybodies

  49. Re:is it that complex? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Not only that, but an Airline Reservation System has a lot of moving parts. Airlines are usually divided into market segments (A, B, C, D) and each class has an increasingly complex number of requirements.

    For example, some reservation systems need to interface with other third-party systems to support GDS, Government Security services (per country, mind you), as well as side services like car rentals and insurance.

    Don't forget that modern airlines also have multiple points of booking: web, phone, mobile, travel agencies, etc. Yes, the reservation system should handle those as well while maintaining scalability.

    Oh, you have a customer loyalty program? The reservation system also handles that.