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How the H-1B Visa Program Impacts America's Tech Workers (computerworld.com)
Computerworld is running an emotional report by their national correspondent Patrick Thibodeau -- complete with a dramatic video -- arguing that America's H-1B Visa program "has also become a way for companies to outsource jobs." An anonymous Slashdot reader quotes the article accompanying the video:
The vast majority of people who work in IT did everything right: They invested in their education, studied difficult subjects, kept their skills updated... But no job is safe, no future entirely secure -- something IT workers know more than most. Given their role, they are most often the change agents, the people who deploy technologies and bring in automation that can turn workplaces upside down. To survive, they count on being smart, self-reliant and one step ahead...
Over the years, Computerworld reporter Patrick Thibodeau has interviewed scores of IT workers who trained their visa-holding replacements. Though details each time may differ, they all tell the same basic story. There are many issues around high-skilled immigration, but to grasp the issue fully you need to understand how the H-1B program can affect American workers.
Over the years, Computerworld reporter Patrick Thibodeau has interviewed scores of IT workers who trained their visa-holding replacements. Though details each time may differ, they all tell the same basic story. There are many issues around high-skilled immigration, but to grasp the issue fully you need to understand how the H-1B program can affect American workers.
The only response 'modern' technologies seem to get from Slashdot is how the 'old way is better'' and "it'll never work". "Those kids are going to have to deploy apache servers BY HAND like I used to. None of that Docker Cloud Crap".
For example "graphical programming languages", which by Slashdot standards are terrible, has a lot of job openings. There are plenty of jobs for hardware in the loop (HIL) testers. Same goes for people that know CAN/J1939 and the tools that go with it
For those training their replacements, I don't see what the problem is. I hate doing parts of my job, I've already done it once. I would be able to train a high school graduate to do 90% of it and if they have questions I'll be around for the other 10%. But it means that I get to concentrate on doing something else. If you're doing the same thing for more than a year heads up, someone or something is trying to automate it and replace you. Unless you think companies should still be bootstrapping a new Laptop instal by hand instead of having an imaging server.
I'm sure the older engineers that were replaced by kids straight out of college that knew CAD thought they were 'highly skilled' workers as well. Turns out an engineer that can draft is cheaper than an engineer AND a drafter. But don't let that get in the way of the narrative that your skills are 'up to date'.
There are jobs out there. A lot of them.
to work the way that it is sold as working.
(1) Keep the number of H1B workers about the same.
(2) Bring fewer new H1B workers into the country by offering permanent residency to ones already here.
(3) Require participating companies to meet minimum goals for H1Bs converting to permanent residency in order to continue participating.
(4) Since fewer new H1Bs will be coming in, raise the standard so they really do bring in hard-to-find skills.
Good people don't just take jobs. They create jobs. That's why employers like to locate in tech centers -- concentration of talent. So if someone's good, bring them in and keep them. It's beyond folly to have a program which kicks good people out of the country, along with skills and know-how that they've accumulated. It's disloyal to the country.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
It's not really a function of price so much as a function of skill level. Most of the H1-B folks I've had the displeasure of working with had very little experience, skill, or talent. Were there actually a glut of workers in IT, I'd say it made sense, but there aren't, and it's getting worse every day as more are imported annually, displacing folks that make better business sense to hire in every aspect save for price. There's a saying, "you get what you pay for." It may look good on paper to replace that $150k/yr rock star programmer with five $30k/yr H1-Bs (supposedly illegal, but it happens, and more often than you think), but one high quality developer will consistently produce more and better code than an army of mediocre ones. The biggest issue with this is, even though IT business process automation represents a major part of a given company's competitive advantage, if all the companies in a market play the same game and begin to all suck equally, any lack of advantage due to poor systems becomes moot. As a result, what used to be smart work done by smart workers becomes the domain of the MyComputerCareer lowest-common-denominator. And real fast, we're all out of a job.
Corporations laugh at the regulations that are never enforced unless there is some sort of massive publicity. Even then... Our congress is bought and paid for.
I'm amazed at all the idiots who think a billionaire who has gone bankrupt (yet somehow still has billions) many times with failed businesses is going to change that.
They don't even teach welding in highschools anymore, you need to go to a specialty college to learn even the basics. Seems to me though, your "stuff being taught at highschool" isn't. Rather it can grant partial college credits towards an applicable program...in college, we had that 20 years ago too. But a college doesn't have to honor the full amount that is gained, and the board of education can drop the accredited amount when you least expect it.
Om, nomnomnom...
People should stop beating around the bush and call this what it is: a government run program to subsidize labor costs for businesses and shareholders, to the detriment of American workers and taxpayers. "Fair market rates" only apply when they are to shareholder's benefit. When they actually give the worker a leg up for a change - fuck you, we're going to bring in some grads from India to do your job. Grads who can compete without five figures of student loan debt hanging over their heads.
no job is safe, no future entirely secure
When was the last time you heard of an H-1B worker taking a politician's job?
Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
In short - "It is entirely reasonable for American citizens to endure a drop in standard of living down to Third World levels in order to fluff corporate profits."
The usual pro-H1B supporters on here say there's nothing wrong, and it's really good that all these people are being brought in to displace American works and push wages down.
The sad truth is that not all H1Bs like the situation either. I met one who worked for an American international subsidiary in India and was now a H1B in the US. Four of them lived in a two room apartment, provided by their employer. They never went out to lunch with the other American folks on their project . . . because their wages were so low, that they could simply not afford it. Instead, they went home and cooked for themselves.
The one I met lamented that he wanted to go back to India to get married and start a family. He also commented that they could sense the disdain for H1Bs among their American colleagues.
So, American workers do not like H1Bs, the H1Bs don't like being H1Bs . . . who likes the H1B concept? Oh, yeah . . . top level management. Well, at least someone is happy here.
Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
How about instead of a lottery, distribute the visas starting from the top paid applications?
That would take care of the low end pretty fast.
> They could likely afford it, but the typical H1-B is hoarding as much money as possible so they can take it back to their country.
Of course they are. They're being thoughtful, responsible people planning for a future, and perhaps even planning for their family's needs. Americans spending s much as we do on "entertainment" as part of our work life, on expensive lunches and expensive hobbies is why so few of of my younger colleagues in the field have any savings, or fallback plans if their startup stock options turn out to be worthless.
There are reasons to dislike the results of H1B immigration. Fiscal caution by the H1B holders is not a reasonable one.
So let me get this right..
You are voting for a guy who regularly stiffed laborers of their pay (hundreds of cases on record), who stiffed subcontractors and other businesses on their pay, and who said he was using u.s. labor when he was found to be using foreign labor.
P.T. Barnum put it best. There's a sucker born every minute.
Fortunately, Trump has basically lost the race.
Just for funsy's go to Youtube and search for "trump praise clinton". You'll see only 7 years ago he was saying she was terrific and would make a good president or vice president.
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
The upper middle class doesn't give a shit what happens to the lower middle class, at least not until it happens to them. No big surprise there.
Sure we do. We just get accused of racism/nativism/protectionism instead of lauded for our noblesse oblige.
I remember this same discussion 20 years ago when I was in grad school for electrical engineering. I was a Pat Buchanan voter arguing with a neocon-ish professor at my lab about how important it is to keep manufacturing jobs in the United States. He said "but we don't want those jobs here, we want tech jobs." Okay, that's great in theory, but the vast, vast majority of our fellow citizens are not as intelligent as we Masters/Ph.D. electrical engineers. I cannot take a 100 IQ auto worker and run him through engineering school and have him come out with a 150 IQ. It doesn't work that way.
I'm opposed to illegal immigration because it drives down wages and decreases the safety of my poor countrymen. I'm opposed to unfair "free" trade agreements because they eliminate the jobs and drive down the wages of my working class countrymen. The purpose of "the economy" and national trade and immigration policy is to serve the interests of the citizens. It is not the purpose of the citizens to serve the interests of "the economy."
We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
There are plenty of jobs for [this, that, and the other thing]
There are plenty of job ADS.
This is because, in order to hire an H1-B, the employer must first advertise the job to US persons.
But there are whole classes given on how to gimmick the hiring process so that anyone who applies, other than the desired H1-B, can be plausibly turned down as unqualified. The US applicants waste their time, and the H1-Bs get the positions.
Give us a call when there are plenty of HIRES of US citizens for these, or any, positions.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
A lot of people deride unions, but unless we have them, corporations pull this type of shit again and again. The government is either apathetic or complicit, which means the only protection for this type of shit is unions.
Actually I think it's more accurate to say "I can't be price competitive because I must live in the American economy". My generation didn't make things expensive here, that was done before me. We're just the unlucky bastards that are alive post-globalization and have to live with first world prices and third world wages.
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
Absolutely!
In part, it's all about how things look on the budget sheet. Replacing one North American worker for two Indian workers - and paying less - looks good. And the numbers can be shown to management. The downside - inferior code, taking longer to produce - isn't captured as neatly. And the numbers can't be shown to management anywhere near as easily.
And one other fun fun fun detail ... managers get promoted based on the number of people they manage, not the total salary of their underlings. So replacing your home-grown, competent North American worker with multiple lesser-skilled, lesser-paid foreigners means the managers get bumped up a pay-grade.
So ... while the outsourcing (or, in the case of H1-Bs, in-country outsourcing) means that companies pay much, much more for the same software, the people making the decisions don't care about that - they care about promoting themselves.
And one final candle on the cake: the stock market punishes companies that deviate from the pack. If one company were to stand up and say "Hey, this outsourcing is costing us more! Let's stop doing it!" then their stock would take a hit. And corporations are run by the board, for the board: the largest part of their remuneration is stock options.
A country without borders is no longer a country.
In an ideal world, the flow of labor, capital and ideas should be free and borderless - but we do not live in an ideal world.
Countries have differing laws, social programs and structures. To protect a country's citizens and its social programs and infrastructure, there needs to be sensible immigration control.
Flooding any nation with immigrants until social structures break benefits no one. Immigration is a noble thing (both of my grandparents were immigrants), but there are practical limitations that need to be enforced.
It be fair, it's not ALL Americans, it's just the poor and middle classes.
... only in America do software developers making $150k/yr consider themselves "poor".