Slashdot Mirror

← Back to Stories (view on slashdot.org)

Mitsubishi Overstated Mileage For More Vehicle Models, Japan Ministry Says (reuters.com)

Posted by msmash on from the scandal-s01 dept.

Earlier this year Mitsubishi admitted to using some less-than-correct tactics when calculating the fuel economy of four of its Japanese market vehicles. But that wasn't the end of the scandal. The Japanese transport ministry has announced that its investigation into Mitsubishi's practices has revealed eight additional vehicles with misreported fuel economy numbers. Reuters reports: Earlier in the day, Japan's transport ministry said its investigation had shown the automaker had overstated the fuel economy for eight vehicles including the RVR, Pajero and Outlander SUV models, in addition to four minivehicles initially confirmed in April. The latest announcement deals another reputational blow to Japan's sixth-largest automaker, which has been struggling to recover from the mileage scandal, which affected two minivehicle models produced for Nissan Motor Co Ltd. The company's market value has tumbled since the scandal broke, and the ordeal prompted the company to seek financial assistance from Nissan, which agreed to buy a controlling one-third stake for $2.2 billion.

40 of 56 comments (clear)

  1. I think you accidentally by pushing-robot · · Score: 3, Interesting

    a word.

    --
    How can I believe you when you tell me what I don't want to hear?
  2. What is this by show+me+altoids · · Score: 1

    stupid car article day on Slashdot?

    --
    I feel sorry for people that don't drink, because when they get up in the morning, that's as good as they're gonna feel
  3. Who says? by omnichad · · Score: 1

    Headline: "Mitsubishi says"

    Summary: "Japan's transport ministry said"

  4. But... by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

    But the Japanese are honorable and they would do nothing to bring shame to themselves or their company. At least that is the myth.

    1. Re:But... by omnichad · · Score: 1

      Getting caught is what brings shame. They didn't choose to get caught.

    2. Re:But... by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      Oh, right! It is the USAs fault of course. The Japanese never invaded Korea repeatedly throughout history and raped all their women. They can't be responsible for their actions, they are just puppets. A familiar story.

    3. Re:But... by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 1

      Too bad Japan didn't get the bomb first, huh? The world would have been such a better place.

    4. Re:But... by HideyoshiJP · · Score: 1

      Yeah, the US bombed Japan, but uh... wtf on the rest of that. Providing their national defense is not an occupation and it isn't illegal. I also don't know what you're talking about with the corporation thing either. Japan can't afford to keep western CEOs because the pay is so low compared to the west (as in $300K for a large corporation). People like Carlos Chosn (Nissan) and Howard Stringer (Former Sony) are very rare. If you want to talk about foreign interests pushing the Japanese around, usually Japan is compared to a lapdog, not a string puppet, which as different connotations.

  5. Does anyone really use these numbers? by cayenne8 · · Score: 1, Interesting
    Does anyone out there really use these mileage numbers in the decision making part of buying a car? Really?

    I mean, sure, they are there...everyone gives them a cursory glance, but do the numbers really play any meaningful role in most peoples' decision on which brand or model car to buy?

    i buy cars that make me happy and will be fun to drive. All I'm looking for is what is the best can I can afford to enjoy driving for the money I can spend....gas mileage, I don't really even look at...

    --
    Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    1. Re:Does anyone really use these numbers? by MyLongNickName · · Score: 3

      "i buy cars that make me happy and will be fun to drive. All I'm looking for is what is the best can I can afford to enjoy driving for the money I can spend....gas mileage, I don't really even look at..."

      Just because you don't doesn't mean all of us don't.

      Gas mileage was one of my top criteria for choosing a car. I bought a car that advertised 27 mpg city, 37 highway, combined 30 mpg. I get around 32 mpg combined, or 35 when I am driving to maximize gas mileage. Overall, I have dropped my gas expenditures 100 dollars per month (roughly) for a car that was under $14,000.

      So yes, many people like me do use it as a criterion for their car purchase.

      --
      See my journal for slashdot ID's by year. Mine created in 2005. http://slashdot.org/journal/289875/slashdot-ids-by-year
    2. Re:Does anyone really use these numbers? by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 1

      I just assume that the numbers are cooked or wrong but that all manufacturers are wrong or cheat the same so it is good to use as a comparison between similar cars. I do take gas mileage into consideration as I do drive a lot and my current car gets about 30% greater mileage than my previous one but (went from about 26 mpg highway to about 37 mpg highway).

      --
      Time to offend someone
    3. Re:Does anyone really use these numbers? by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

      And, I bought a Honda Civic Hybrid. Oregon charged me $50 more to register it because "we don't get as much gas tax from it". Then I realized that the savings on gas were pretty much balanced out by paying more for the car and another $3000 every 8 to 10 years to replace the hybrid batteries. I still look at EPA mileage estimates, but I've come to realize there is no such thing as a free lunch.

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    4. Re:Does anyone really use these numbers? by MouseR · · Score: 2

      You wont have to replace your hybrid battery. That's myth brought on by cheap laptop & cell phones horrible power managements. Further propagated by the Cock Brothers (typo intended).

      Sparkie raked up more than 118,000 EV miles, on a car with more than 330,000 miles with no loss of charge on his 2012 Chevy Volt.

      Chevy has recently mentioned is has replaced exactly NONE of it's > 100,000 Volt batteries out there du to degradation.

    5. Re:Does anyone really use these numbers? by allquixotic · · Score: 1

      Yes, I **really** do use these mileage numbers as a key factor in deciding what vehicle to buy. Though, actually, there are other numbers that are more telling of fuel economy, like the number of cylinders and displacement; the weight and physical dimensions of the car; the presence or absence of hybrid or EV drive; and performance.

      It's all thermodynamics. Simple physics. Easy stuff. Let's see:

      1) The faster an object accelerates, the more energy it requires to reach a given speed.
      2) The heavier an object is, the more energy it takes to move it a given distance.
      3) On a larger scale -- you know, for those of us who care about the consequences of our actions beyond what will happen tomorrow -- the more carbon you pump into an atmosphere, the more the sun's heat is trapped by the planet until that starts to have a detrimental and destabilizing effect on the ecosystem that sustains our current way of life.
      4) Again on a larger scale -- unless you can prove that Earth has infinite mass, or unless you can disprove figures showing that we are consuming fossil fuels far faster than they are being produced anew, it is physically necessary that we will eventually run out of fossil fuels.
      5) Last one where you have to care about the future, promise -- Without a viable alternative to achieve the same level of energy density as fossil fuels on a massive, global scale, once there starts to be a fossil fuel shortage, the economy will collapse, people will be unable to get to their jobs, and there will be chaos, war, famine and death. So maybe it's a good idea to minimize the rate at which we consume these finite fuels?

      By the way, economics can matter, too, for those without limitless funds, even if you don't give a rat's ass about the continuity of the human species. What can simple application of economics to the above tell us?

      1) A vehicle that uses less fuel to go a given distance will cost less money to operate, since the cost of fuel over a given period of time scales linearly with the quantity of fuel that you buy over that time.
      2) If you spend less money on fuel, you will have more money to pay for other things you might need, or want. Or you can just give the excess money away to people who live in miserable squalor day-to-day to somewhat ease the human suffering of those around you, if you happen to be lucky enough to be extremely rich with all of your wants and needs satisfied.
      3) Based on the above physics principles, combined with the law of supply and demand, it stands to reason that, once there is fuel scarcity due to more demand than supply, the price of fuel will become very high. If you are the lucky owner of a vehicle that uses relatively little fuel to get around, you will be much less affected by the price of fuel than someone who owns a high fuel consumption vehicle, regardless of the distance you drive.

      In summary, unless you are a total fucking idiot, fuel economy matters. The **number** on the sticker mandated by the law may not be extremely accurate by itself, but it has been shown to at least have a positive correlation with the actual measured fuel economy of the vehicle relative to others on the market.

      So yeah, go ahead and ignore every possible rational reason for caring about fuel economy and just buy whatever. When there are massive resource shortages worldwide in a few decades, nature itself will start taking measures to reduce the demand of fuel by letting the most horrible things happen to the people who are unlucky enough to be without the resources they need to live, and we don't have to do anything. The problem will "take care of itself", in a way. You may as well go out on the streets and campaign for war and famine, because that's exactly what you're doing by being indifferent to a problem that will lead to exactly those consequences if we do not all, as a society, band together to do something about the problem.

    6. Re:Does anyone really use these numbers? by allquixotic · · Score: 1

      Addendum: And in case your beef is with the EPA MPG ratings (or the equivalent in your country), here's a real simple technique to determine fuel economy for yourself. A dealer may not let you do this with a car before you buy it, but you could certainly do it with a rental car or a friend's car, or one you currently own.

      Assuming you trust the MPG measured by the vehicle itself: On most modern vehicles, when you turn off the car, it will tell you your MPG for the trip you just made. This MPG is not an extrapolation or estimate; it is based on calculating the amount of fuel remaining when you turned on the car; the amount of fuel remaining when you turned off the car; and the distance you traveled. The MPG directly follows.

      Assuming you don't trust the MPG measured by the vehicle itself: When you start your trip, pump out all the fuel in your car's tank and measure the mass. Then put it back in the tank, drive for a distance, turn off the car, pump out the fuel again and measure it again.

      You can directly compare two vehicles' fuel economy by driving as close to identical of a trip as possible in two different vehicles while seeing which one consumed less fuel.

      If you care about fuel economy but don't trust the marketing and rating of fuel economy by the government and/or the corporations, you can very easily do your own tests. Most people who actually do these tests find that the fuel economy ratings given by the government are not too far off the mark. If anything, the U.S. EPA ratings are slightly pessimistic for a driver who does not drive like a psychopath.

      Therefore I think it is fairly likely that someone who all but ignores the fuel economy ratings when shopping for a vehicle is not invested in the reasons for caring about fuel economy in the first place. For that, read my prior post.

    7. Re:Does anyone really use these numbers? by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      Lithium ion batteries degrade over time. With current technology, this can be slowed by smart battery management and using high quality cells but not stopped. It's accelerated by state of charge and high temperature.

      It's only been 4 years since 2012.

    8. Re:Does anyone really use these numbers? by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      1) The amount of energy required to reach a certain speed increases as the rate of acceleration lowers, not the other way around (due to the increased time it takes, more energy is converted to heat via friction). The efficiency of the engine may drastically reduce when you make it produce more power though.
      On the other hand, the faster an object accelerates, the more energy it requires to reach a given distance as it will be travelling faster, which implies more friction.

      2) A car with regenerative braking can re-capture some of the extra energy used to accelerate it. These cars (are pretty much all hybrid or electric) are both heavier and more fuel efficient than those without regenerative braking.

      4) What does mass have to do with anything? Burning fuel is not a nuclear reaction, no mass is converted in to energy. The mass of the exhaust from a car is equal to the mass of the fuel and air going in to it. (Ignoring any build-up of unburnt fuel or dirt inside the engine) The processes that created the oil in the first place are still happening. The water and CO2 being produced still get converted back to sugars by plants. Bacteria still break those sugars down in to simply hydrocarbons. The only problem is the rate at which these processes happen.

      *) Your beef seems to be with burning fossil fuels to move a car. Electric cars don't need to burn fossil fuels. Power can be generated by other means - Hydro, wind, solar, nuclear, tides, etc.

      In the case of Mitsubishi, the **number** on the sticker is related to the drivetrain of the vehicle, not the vehicle itself. an SUV with the same engine and transmission as sedan can share the same number, where as an SUV with a more efficient engine not available in a smaller car may have a worse number. Where has it been shown there is a positive correlation?

      The best one I've experienced was my old Subaru Legacy. It had the same economy ratings as a non-turbo charged Impreza, despite it being maybe 300kg heavier, worse drag due to being a station wagon and two turbo chargers. It's the same engine, same gearbox and same 4wd system though. Different car, different engine management, different engine 'accessories'. This was over 15 years ago though, so no one cared. Petrol was cheap.

    9. Re:Does anyone really use these numbers? by MouseR · · Score: 1

      118,000 EV miles. 53 miles per charge. That's 2,226 full charge cycles. Sparkie travels an average of 66,000 miles per year (long commute) since 2011 (2012 model... 2011... 5 years).

      That's more distance than most will do with their dino cars.

      Proper thermal management is done on these batteries because GM did their work: they have the largest battery lab.

      The Volt's Gen2 battery is 18.5kw but only about 14.5 is available for driving. The remainder is used for thermal management and avoiding deep charge cycles, which is really what destroyes life expectancy of Li-Ion batteries. And that's why they last long.

      Gen 1 used different battery capacities but still had that ~20% thermal overhead. Also, unlike laptop and phones, these batteries are liquid-cooled with their own glycol, 5-channel cooling system (Tesla only has a single-chanel system).

      Disclaimer: I both a Gen2 Volt and a CSRT4.

      My Volt will rot to the ground before I have to worry about the battery.

    10. Re:Does anyone really use these numbers? by tlhIngan · · Score: 1

      I just assume that the numbers are cooked or wrong but that all manufacturers are wrong or cheat the same so it is good to use as a comparison between similar cars. I do take gas mileage into consideration as I do drive a lot and my current car gets about 30% greater mileage than my previous one but (went from about 26 mpg highway to about 37 mpg highway).

      Actually, they're not cooked, or try not to be. There's actually a test protocol to get those numbers, which is *based* on real world driving, but doesn't represent real-world driving.

      The reason for this is consistency and comparison - consistency so the test can be repeated through a model cycle to make sure the test vehicle wasn't cherry-picked, and comparison so you can compare vehicles across model years and makes.

      So the real world results generally will be close, but sometimes can be quite far off depending on how your drive is compared to the "standard drive". And as VW has shown, it's easy to detect a "standard drive" and kick in fake more efficient modes of operation.

      Likewise, there's a "standard drive" for emissions testing too - so emissions measurements are again comparable.

  6. Pajero? by Mister+Transistor · · Score: 1

    Really? A car called "Pajero"?

    Years ago, a buddy of mine from Honduras told me that was local slang for "jagoff". We used to call each other "Paja" for short, it was hilarious. I never heard it used again until now!

    --
    -- You are in a maze of little, twisty passages, all different... --
    1. Re:Pajero? by Shatrat · · Score: 1

      That's why it was renamed the Montero when sold between the Atlantic and Pacific.

      --
      09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
    2. Re: Pajero? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Huh? Montero? Where I come from that's what people call a bunch of faggots buttfucking each other in a big gay circle.

    3. Re:Pajero? by Mister+Transistor · · Score: 1

      That's as bad as a Buick LaCrosse - that also means masturbation in Canada, where they rename the car to "Allure". Absolutely hilarious! Don't they do searches for this shit?

      --
      -- You are in a maze of little, twisty passages, all different... --
  7. manishs must be shopping for a new car by OffTheLip · · Score: 1

    That's fine but don't involve the slashdot tech world in your search.

    1. Re:manishs must be shopping for a new car by allquixotic · · Score: 1

      Last I checked, vehicles are among the most technologically advanced products commonly purchased by consumers. They somewhat-reliably and comfortably transfer a large amount of stored potential energy from chemical fuels into kinetic energy of human beings and cargo. They do this while keeping the inhabitants entertained, informed, and sometimes safe. These feats are accomplished using a fusion of mechanical, electrical, chemical, materials and computer engineering, with state-of-the-art research in all of these fields being applied to the manufacture of these vehicles.

      It's rather interesting -- to me, at least -- when something notable happens in the world of vehicles, because almost everything about vehicles is inherently bound to technology. Vehicles also tend to be "stuff that matters" to those who are forced to commute a non-trivial distance to an on-premises job. Just because you don't sit down in the driver's seat of a vehicle and start typing commands into a shell with a keyboard, doesn't mean they aren't (interesting) technology. Slashdot never claimed to be a site that's only about [insert your favorite subset of the technology world here].

    2. Re:manishs must be shopping for a new car by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      Oh yeah a car is really technically advanced. About 100 years ago.

  8. Difference Between Asian & Western Executives by Luthair · · Score: 2

    Asia - we're sorry

    Western - fuck you, we did nothing wrong even though we've agreed to pay this massive fine.

  9. Difference Between Asian & Western legal syste by Solandri · · Score: 2

    Asia: No you can't sue them. They already admitted guilt and paid the government a fine and compensation. If you were harmed by their actions, go collect your share of the compensation through the government's compensation program.

    Western: Yup, they said they were guilty. Sue them for everything they're worth.

    When you make it an incalculable liability to admit guilt, you shouldn't be surprised when people refuse to admit guilt.

  10. Wait... Mitsubishi is still in business? by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

    Go drive around for a while, and see how long it takes you to see a Mitsubishi on the road!

    --
    I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
  11. Correct me if I'm wrong, but... by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

    Don't the mileage and emissions numbers come from tests performed by the vehicle manufacturer themselves, and not by an independent third party? Meaning that not only would any sane person expect them to be inaccurate, but also that the solution is obvious. Oh, and if you're going to do emissions testing, run it for an hour on a dynamometer at highway speeds -- let's see them rig the firmware to cheat on that!

    --
    I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    1. Re:Correct me if I'm wrong, but... by Dare+nMc · · Score: 1

      > Don't the mileage and emissions numbers come from tests performed by the vehicle manufacturer themselves,

      https://www3.epa.gov/otaq/test...

      Not sure about Japan, but US does have the manufactures report the tests and results to the EPA, and the EPA reviews, and will then test 15%-20% of the vehicles themselves.

      Issue is that manufactures need to advertise cars in advance of when they go on sale, with Fuel economy posted. So they are not production models, but prototypes. So they will change things, remove add extra features, so different tires different weights... So even the EPA tested ones are easily fudged if they specially prepare the vehicle they send.

      The EPA does say it has started testing used vehicles, not sure when they started doing that, and what they do with the results...

    2. Re:Correct me if I'm wrong, but... by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      run it for an hour on a dynamometer at highway speeds -- let's see them rig the firmware to cheat on that!

      If it were me, I'd use the accelerometer and gyro in the traction control system to detect if the car is actually moving. The car isn't going to go over random bumps or turn a corner when it's strapped on a dyno.

  12. Re:The numbers have gotten worse by Razed+By+TV · · Score: 1

    When I was shopping for a car, maybe around 2009, I picked up the car edition of Consumer Reports. The car I was looking to replace was a late 80's Toyota Camry station wagon. I could reliably get 28 MPG on the highway, and maybe was getting 24 MPG on average, driving around suburbia.

    After looking in the Consumer Reports at pages and pages of cars, I found that the average MPG was around 20, and highway driving was 24ish. The average 2009 car did not come close to the 20 year old car I was looking to replace. There were cars that were outliers, mostly Toyotas and Volkswagons, and these cars commanded a higher value for being more fuel efficient. I was thoroughly disgusted that in 20 years, the average car didn't beat mine.

    Then again, I never looked at how bad the other cars were in the late 80's.

  13. Who else? by allquixotic · · Score: 1

    Should just be able to do a mind meld and get to the bottom of this. Is basically EVERYONE doing this? Yeesh.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

  14. Re:How is this a scandal? by allquixotic · · Score: 1

    Where are the stories about the "real crooks"? Slashdot is more or less a news aggregator, which means that in order for an article to get posted to Slashdot, it needs to have been covered by someone else in the media; Slashdot will then summarize and link to that media.

    So, by all means, find some articles about the evil-doers you want to go after, and submit them to Slashdot. The community will decide whether they're worth being posted to the front page. Go ahead, it only takes a few minutes and nobody's stopping you. If these American companies are indeed as awful as you claim they are, it's worth a few minutes of your time to give the problem a larger audience, in hopes that the negative PR, consumer outrage, and maybe activism will take place and start to solve the problem you perceive with these companies.

    Otherwise, you have no grounds for complaint.

  15. Re:The numbers have gotten worse by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

    The average car these days is a lot heavier, due to all the safety requirements. It also produces less pollution.

    In order to meet the ever increasing emissions standards, efficiency has had to take a hit.
    You can increase the compression, add a turbo charger and direct injection and it's going to be very efficient. It's also going to spew out NOx compounds because that's just what happens when you burn all the fuel and there is excess oxygen left over. It combines with the nitrogen in the air due to the high temperatures.
    Catalytic converters aren't 100% effective, don't work at all when they're cold and also restrict the exhaust flow.

  16. Re:Difference Between Asian & Western legal sy by Plammox · · Score: 1

    Except that no European VW owners will ever see any compensation for VW's fraudulent behaviour. This is only in the USA, AFAIK.

  17. Nissan too... by PortHaven · · Score: 1

    I commute over a 100+ miles a day. Mostly highway. I had a Nissan Versa rated for 38mpg, that averaged around 35.5mpg. Not bad. 93% of rated HWY.

    I now have a Nissan Rogue, rated for 32mpg. Now I average around 23.5MPG, or around 73% of the rated HWY mileage.

    =(

    1. Re:Nissan too... by PortHaven · · Score: 1

      I bought a 2014 Nissan Rogue, equipped with a 3rd row, rated at 32MPG HWY/25CITY. I expected to at least get around 27-28MPG. I do not get anywhere close to that. I recently drove a Jeep Cherokee rental. It got equivalent gas mileage. So ya, not happy with Nissan, as I sacrificed ability to "tow" for better gas MPG. And it hasn't been even close to the rating. And as you can see, my 23.5MPG is pretty typical. That's a "big" miss.
      http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg...

      If that wasn't bad enough, my HVAC system has not worked properly since the vehicle was 13 months old. (But was out of warranty because I had just passed the 36,000 mile mark.)

      So sick and tired of cars.

  18. ABSOL-FRIGGING-LUTELY by PortHaven · · Score: 1

    It was the #3 deciding factor of my purchase.

    #1 - within my budget (this eliminated Tesla, sadly)

    #2 - 3rd row seat

    #3 - highest MPG possible.

    #4 - AWD/Towing

    I bought a 2014 Nissan Rogue, equipped with a 3rd row, rated at 32MPG HWY/25CITY. I expected to at least get around 27-28MPG. I do not get anywhere close to that. I recently drove a Jeep Cherokee rental. It got equivalent gas mileage. So ya, not happy with Nissan, as I sacrificed ability to "tow" for better gas MPG. And it hasn't been even close to the rating. And as you can see, my 23.5MPG is pretty typical. That's a "big" miss.
    http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg...

    If that wasn't bad enough, my HVAC system has not worked properly since the vehicle was 13 months old. (But was out of warranty because I had just passed the 36,000 mile mark.)

    So sick and tired of cars.