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EU Finance Ministers Line Up Behind $21B Tax Ruling Against Apple (herald-dispatch.com)
An anonymous Slashdot reader quotes the Associated Press: Dutch Finance Minister Jeroen Dijsselbloem urged Apple Saturday to "get ready" to pay up, as he and counterparts from other EU nations lined up behind a finding that the technology giant owes billions of euros due to more than a decade of improperly low taxation. Apple's bill could reach 19 billion euros ($21 billion) with interest, and both the company and Ireland, Apple's European headquarters are appealing the European Commission ruling. But on the last day of an EU finance ministers' meeting focused on ways to harmonize tax rules for international companies, Dijsselbloem told reporters that these "have an obligation to pay taxes in a fair way."
"International tax loopholes are a thing of the past," he said. Apple will have to pay back taxes both in the United States and Europe, he added, "so get ready to do that." Philip Hammond, his British counterpart, said the EU was keen "to make sure that international corporations pay the right tax at the right place. That's the fair way to do it, and we are going to make sure it happens."
Austria, France, and Italy are reportedly also watching the case closely.
"International tax loopholes are a thing of the past," he said. Apple will have to pay back taxes both in the United States and Europe, he added, "so get ready to do that." Philip Hammond, his British counterpart, said the EU was keen "to make sure that international corporations pay the right tax at the right place. That's the fair way to do it, and we are going to make sure it happens."
Austria, France, and Italy are reportedly also watching the case closely.
This is where push will come to shove.
You can have whole divisions of lawyers covering each and every aspect of the fine print to the nth level but the bottom line is;
Tax laws, breaks and reductions are not there to be professionally manipulated to the extent that you pay nothing.
Due to loopholes, exploitation and poor oversight megacorporations have had an unfair advantage for decades.
Apple execs will throw a hissy fit because they know they manipulated every legal loophole to pay less. "It's legal" they shout. The intent not to pay tax to any meaningful degree is fucking the rest of us over. The rest of us can decide to call BS and slap you with a fine to pony up what you owe.
Welcome to the iTaxes you owed us and never pay ALL THOSE YEARS -they are magical.
A 'singular oddity' is an event that cannot be explained and only happens when you are alone.
Except that it's not ex post facto. It's a step towards stricter enforcement, and that's why Ireland is also being spanked pretty hard right now, because the deals they made were in contravention of existing EU legal frameworks and treaties, and were as such illegal and thus invalid. It's enforcement of the actual law, not of an illegal and underhanded deal between irish politicians and various megacorps such as Apple, Microsoft, Alphabet and a whole crapton of others.
In my opinion it takes a lot of "courage" to ask them to pay those taxes. That's quite "innovative" if you ask me. The EU is not just thinking outside the box, they're "thinking differently" . And other puns...
They didn't change the rules afterwards. Irish politicians and corps like Apple, Microsoft, Alphabet etc made deals that were in contravention of existing EU treaties and laws. This trial, that has taken years to come to this verdict, goes back to strict enforcement of old treaties and laws
No, Ireland can set any tax rate as it wants. Nothing in the EU takes that right away from Ireland.
What Ireland is not allowed to do is to provide reductions for specific companies. EU laws try to create a fair playing field.
What trial? Was there a judge involved?
Sig?
A lot of people outside of Europe (and to be fair, even Europeans) doesn't understand how the EU works. Ireland can't simply decide to stop obeying EU treaties any more than a US state is allowed to all of a sudden decide that someone no longer have to pay federal tax. If that happened, you can be sure that the IRS would demand the taxes be paid in full after they found out about it.
So long as it doesn't let one company off of paying that tax
The Irish tax codes that Apple relied upon are available to any company based in Ireland that receives income from outside the country.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_arrangement
Have gnu, will travel.
Brexit just might work out after all.
Since the EU clearly believes corporations operating on its soil should actually pay taxes, an opportunity is raising its one-eyed head. Maybe the UK can set itself up with Jersey and the Isle of Man to become the Cayman Islands of the North.
Worse weather. Better tax haven. Everybody wins!
I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
I don't think there are many tulips in Sweden, where IKEA actually is from.
They are not paying it back to EU. They are paying it back to Ireland.
Eu don't collect business taxes, and I don't think any companies pays tax to EU.
By that reasoning, if you make an honest mistake when filing your taxes and this mistake is not caught by the government when you submit your tax return netting you a substantial larger income tax refund than what you should have rightfully received, then you should be able to keep any money you get from them, and not have to pay any of it back when they discover the mistake? While you may not actually be guilty of tax fraud in such circumstances, are you going to argue that you should be able to keep everything that they sent you? You shouldn't be charged any interest for the intervening time between when the taxes were filed and when the mistake was discovered, of course, but why shouldn't you have to pay the difference back?
This actually happened to me, by the way... It was actually my employer's mistake, but it was unintentional on their part as well. I still had to pay back the difference between what they sent me and what I should have received. (Without interest penalty though... as long as I paid it back within a certain time of the date that they sent the notice of the error).
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
If you don't pay your taxes, there doesn't need to be a judge or trial to collect those back taxes.
Apple could fight this ruling at a hearing, in front of a judge. But they know they'll just lose.
You are welcome on my lawn.
That analogy doesn't quite hold, because the taxes are paid to Ireland, not the EU. It's more akin to one US state deciding that a company doesn't need to pay state taxes. This kind of thing is completely legal in the USA, which is why states in the US have seen a race to the bottom for various tax rates. The problem with the ruling is that, until a few months ago, everyone thought that this was legal in the EU too. It has, however, always been illegal for an EU nation to subsidise a particular company (with a few carefully regulated exceptions).
The recent ruling is saying that an agreement that says that Apple doesn't have to pay $21B that it would normally have had to pay is equivalent to the Irish government giving Apple $21B. I have a lot of sympathy with that interpretation (you give me $1 and I give you back $1 is very similar to you not giving me $1 in the first place), but it's a little bit surprising that this kind of clarification would happen after decades of lots of similar deals. It's also quite surprising that Ireland hasn't been fined: If this is illegal state subsidy, then the state providing the illegal subsidy is more in the wrong than the company accepting it, yet it appears that their punishment is to receive $21B that they didn't expect. I would be very happy to be punished by the EU in exactly the same way...
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
Ireland ratified the Treaty of Lisbon on October 21, 2009 (Dáil Éireann) and October 22, 2009 (Senate). Presidential assent was granted on October 27, 2009.
You are welcome on my lawn.
Corporate taxes in the US are too high; that's why these profits have been kept offshore for so long. Most Republicans and Democrats, including Obama, recognize that.
The major political candidate who says she wants to raise corporate taxes is... Hillary. Although, to be fair to Hillary, she is probably lying.
In my opinion it takes a lot of "courage" to ask them to pay those taxes. That's quite "innovative" if you ask me. The EU is not just thinking outside the box, they're "thinking differently" . And other puns...
Apple's lawyers had a referendum on the subject, but apparently they held it wrong.
(moar bribes pls)
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Actually, EU member countries do have limits on what their level of taxation is. Specific taxes have specific minimum and maximum values. That is all part of the EU treaties. In my opinion, one of EU:s main achievements is its work against tax competition of countries.
But, let's keep in mind that Ireland joined EU and those treaties willingly and they can also leave EU if they so choose.
Ireland actually joined the EU in its prior state as the EEC in 1973. And the rules that got Ireland in trouble here were in place way back then as well.
The Treaty of Lisbon is just another treat expanding the EUs constitution.
Well, in this case the people (Ireland) that stands to collect appealed...
Unfair moderation of the parent. I'm Dutch, and completely agree with the sentiment expressed. Dijsselbloem is a hypocrite, as he, as Minister of Finance of the Netherlands has done absolutely nothing to prevent this type of back-dealing with large companies by his department. Ireland is probably the greatest offender of using taxation to screw over the other EU nations, but the Netherlands is a close second.
Sorry, but no. Apple (and Ireland) thought that a certain law was meant to be what they wanted it to be, and now got informed that they got it wrong.
Like, say, you going to jail for killing your mother in law because according to your definition she's not a human being, and the law disagreeing with you.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
They can still set whatever tax rate they like. What they cannot do is set a different tax rate for a specific company.
The US funds their 'Greek states' by funneling federal money over to them and reducing their sovereignity even further in the process. 'Schengen' is there in the US -- do you need a passport/visa to cross state lines? Who takes care of immigration in the US? And finally, the only civil war the US had was about leaving the union, a thing we're now going through with Brexit. No war in sight.
I'm not really clear on what you're arguing for here. Should the EU be structured more like the US, reduce sovereignity, and start building up the military to force Great Britain in line? Or should the US get rid of the dollar so that every state can devalue their own currency when they're in trouble? Please explain what the right structure of the EU would be, one that the US can follow without civil wars.
Of course, and a statute of limitations applies here too. That's why it only goes back to 2003 and not to 1991 when Ireland artificially lowered the amount of tax they said Apple would have to pay
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
Since corporations are theoretically immortal, there should be no statue of limitations on them. There are many corporations over 1,000 years old. The statue of limitations is based around the idea of degradation of evidence. Yet in these cases, there are rock-solid records of the accounting so that doesn't apply. Another reason is that a normal person is "punished" by their conscious over time; but corps don't have morals, conscious, mortality, or any other human similarities. For most publicly traded corps it's all about next quarter's profit; let the lawyers fend everything else off.
This is a remarkable display of ignorance and stupidity. I've seldom seen so much wrong in one comment.
Apple has to jack up their prices to pay for this huge financial hit. Every future consumer of Apple products is hurt.
The 'hit' is on their profits. That means that they can leave prices untouched and still not lose money.
Since this is a tax payment it'll also be offset against any tax they pay when repatriating their profits back to the US. So it's not even additional cost to them, it's just payment to Ireland instead of the US Government.
The only people that lose out from this are the US taxpayers.
The EU gains power from a legal precedent, which it will use to abuse other companies.
The EU were already enforcing the treaty obligations against state subsidies anyway, including ones comparable to this.
So no new legal precedent.
Also no abuse. The only abuse in this whole sordid tale is Apple's abuse of the tax laws.
The EU gains $21 billion, equal to 9% of Ireland's GDP.
No. Ireland gains $21 billion. Although Ireland is in the EU, none of that money goes directly to the EU.
(Some of it will likely get there indirectly).
This money will be used to grow the EU bureaucracy, enabling it to further abuse everyone living in the EU.
Holy shit. I voted for the UK to leave the EU and even I don't describe the EU as abusing everyone living here. Since the money wont reach the EU, no, it wont expand the bureaucracy.
Another tax haven, where decent people can escape thieving government, is lost.
Decent people couldn't take advantage of the special terms Apple negotiated, so nothing is lost. Apple is a company and not people, and is pretty fucking far from decent, so again nothing is lost.
And you consider that a good thing.
Hell yes.
Absolutely.
Completely.
It's awesome. Fantastic. Magnificent.
Any other questions?
Which is why unenforced laws are such dangerous things.
When we are all criminals, we can all be arrested at the discretion of the authorities.
How many pages are added to the US federal/EU law books every year?
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Both Apple and Ireland claim that the tax rate always applied to everybody and not just to a specific company. Furthermore, Apple claims to be current on all of their Irish taxes and to, in fact, be Ireland's largest tax payer.
The EU claims that none of these statements are true.
It'll be interesting to see which side is closer to the actual truth once the facts slowly become public.
Do you understand that the court system is part of the government too? And it wasn't "the mob" who said Apple did something wrong.
You are welcome on my lawn.
You're joking, right? Please tell me you're joking.
Did you really just equate Apple having to pay taxes with the Holocaust?
You are welcome on my lawn.