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A New Programming Language Expands on Google's Go (infoworld.com)
"One sure sign your language is successful: When people build other languages that transpile into it." An anonymous Slashdot reader quotes a report from InfoWorld:
The Have project uses Go's toolchain, but sports a different syntax and makes key additions to the language... Previously, a language named Oden worked with Go's toolchain to add features that Go didn't support. Now Polish developer Marcin Wrochniak has introduced Have, a language that transpiles to and expands on Go.
In the blog post that introduces the project to Go developers, Wrochniak describes Have as a hobby project, with the goal of becoming a "companion" to Go that addresses some of its common "landmines"... Go uses curly braces in the manner of C/C++, while Have uses block indents, like Python... The way that variable declaration, structs, and interfaces work have all been modified in Have to be more consistent with each other and to avoid internal inconsistencies that Wrochniak feels are a common source of bugs.
In the blog post that introduces the project to Go developers, Wrochniak describes Have as a hobby project, with the goal of becoming a "companion" to Go that addresses some of its common "landmines"... Go uses curly braces in the manner of C/C++, while Have uses block indents, like Python... The way that variable declaration, structs, and interfaces work have all been modified in Have to be more consistent with each other and to avoid internal inconsistencies that Wrochniak feels are a common source of bugs.
We need at least five new programming languages per year because C++ simply doesn't do the job. C++ doesn't even have a code of conduct! How am I supposed to know what to do if somebody takes offence at my code?
I'm glad to hear they got rid of the curly braces and copied Python. It's a truly excellent idea to have indentation determine program flow. I think this could be extended further and have program flow dictated by the font you use in your editor. Arial instead of if statements, Comic Sans instead of for loops, etc.
Anyway, I'm really happy to see programming languages going the same way as user interface designs, with people desperate to throw away what works and replace it with something inferior because they believe they're innovative and creative. Maybe we could do the same with cars next; I've always thought steering wheels where a stupid idea and you could steer far more easily with a system of cogs and pulleys.
"Curly" braces to denote blocks of code and semi colons to denote end of statement are the marks of a sane language.
Anything else just asks for subtle bugs.
40 years programming experience has taught me this but if you want to find this out for yourself carry on :)
Love the name. Especially I love trying to find any information on this bloody language:
* have tutorial
* have language tutorial
* have programming language tutorial
* have to go transpiler
* how to program in have
* have wiki
Next up, a webserver written in have called "the", a debugger for the language called "how", and IDE for it named "it" -- "debugging the with how in it".
Indentation is the strongest indicator of block structure to the people reading and writing the code, but the toolchain uses a *different* set of indicators (the braces and semicolons). Any person who is looking at code - especially just quickly scanning code - is going to rely on the indentation to denote blocks first, and then to a lesser degree things like curly braces - the spacing and positioning are simply stronger visual cues.
In most languages, this is what can lead to a few types of subtle bugs, e.g.
if (x y);
doSomething();
Python's stance is that the humans and the tools should use the same block identifiers. Sure there are other ways to solve the problem (like make the tools look for likely errors and warn the user), but Python chose the route of just getting people and tools on the same page - it's not a bad solution.
Personally, I've used Python for many years now, in everything from tiny startups to Fortune 500 companies, for everything from small tools to enormous, distributed systems. Like any language, it has its strengths and its weaknesses, but the indentation is not an issue in practice, but is instead an asset. All of the potential or theoretical problems that people complain about with indentation-based blocks are overblown and simply doesn't occur in practice - at least no more than any other type of problem (I can't even remember the last time we had a bug due to it - probably not in this decade).
If that's not your cup of tea, that's fine. I just find it interesting that (a) it does not actually cause problems in practice and (b) when I hop over to a language like C++ I find that curly braces are just noise and feel wholly unnecessary - just extra stuff to help the tools along, and not there for my benefit as a developer.
Delete the last tab on the last line of a python block. Does the code still run? Almost certainly. Does the interpreter give a warning? Nope.
Now delete the last curly bracket from a C/C++/java block. Does the code compile? Not on your life. And if I have to explain why then you have no business giving an opinion on this topic.
Python's stance is that the humans and the tools should use the same block identifiers. Sure there are other ways to solve the problem (like make the tools look for likely errors and warn the user), but Python chose the route of just getting people and tools on the same page - it's not a bad solution.
Sorry but it is a bad solution. I used to be a fan of indentation until I started writing large programs. Such big projects often require refactoring of the initial design and thus massive cut-and-pasting, with all the standard ensuing pitfalls.
This is a problem that clearly didn't occur to the Python designer and to this date is both unsolved and a major source of bugs.
I think I get the point you're trying to make, but I'm a bit dubious - it's a syntactically valid change, so there's no reason for the tool to complain. That's in the same class of errors as deleting a digit from a constant, accidentally pressing '+' instead of '-', removing the '=' from a '=' expression, and so on.
I personally don't care if certain people like Python or not - language preference is often fairly subjective. I'm doubtful, however, about claims that the indenting is bad in any objective way - I've seen too many people use it for too many years on too many projects without it being a problem. I mean, don't you think this would be tripping people up constantly if it were a real issue in practice?
I've watched veteran devs pick up Python as well as recent college grads pick it up, and this just isn't an issue. I can maybe/kinda/sorta almost convince myself that I've just been extraordinarily lucky to have never had this be a problem, but for it to not be a common problem for all of those other people, on all of those other projects? Nah, it just doesn't add up. Everything I've seen suggests that this is a problem that could occur in theory, but rarely if ever does in practice.
Agreed. And more importantly, if you have braces, it is possible for the IDE to programmatically fix the indentation so that it is easy to read. There's absolutely no sane reason to require a programmer to use whitespace for any reason other than between tokens that would otherwise be a single token if shoved together. All other use should be superfluous, and the IDE should make it readable for you without the need for a person to do it.
And the reason braces should be in every programming language, IMO, is that it makes it easier to jump to the end of a block. When I have nested blocks in a properly braced language, I can hit percent in vi, and I'm at the end of that block. I don't have to move the cursor to the beginning of the line and laboriously hit the down arrow key a line at a time until I find a line that isn't indented as far. Therein lies the path to madness.
Want to dramatically improve the programming world in a single project? Design a meta-language for code formatting so that a set of text-based rules can enforce everybody's own quirky code formatting standards. Make it handle at least the twenty or so most popular programming languages. Then open source it under a BSD license so that the interpreter can be readily built into every IDE on the planet. Then, we can finally dispense with all of these silly programming languages that use whitespace syntactically once and for all.
Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.