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FCC Official Asks Agency To Investigate Ban On Journalists' Wi-Fi Personal Hotspots At Debate (arstechnica.com)

Yesterday, it was reported that journalists attending the presidential debate at Hofstra University were banned from using personal hotspots and were told they had to pay $200 to access the event's Wi-Fi. The journalists were reportedly offered the option to either turn off their personal hotspots or leave the debate. Cyrus Farivar via Ars Technica is now reporting that "one of the members of the Federal Communications Commission, Jessica Rosenworcel, has asked the agency to investigate the Monday evening ban." Ars Technica reports: Earlier, Commissioner Jessica Rosenworcel tweeted, saying that something was "not right" with what Hofstra did. She cited an August 2015 order from the FCC, forcing a company called SmartCity to no longer engage in Wi-Fi blocking and to pay $750,000. Ars has since updated their report with a statement from Karla Schuster, a spokeswoman for Hofstra University: The Commission on Presidential Debates sets the criteria for services and requires that a completely separate network from the University's network be built to support the media and journalists. This is necessary due to the volume of Wi-Fi activity and the need to avoid interference. The Rate Card fee of $200 for Wi-Fi access is to help defray the costs and the charge for the service does not cover the cost of the buildout. For Wi-Fi to perform optimally the system must be tuned with each access point and antenna. When other Wi-Fi access points are placed within the environment the result is poorer service for all. To avoid unauthorized access points that could interfere, anyone who has a device that emits RF frequency must register the device. Whenever a RF-emitting device was located, the technician notified the individual to visit the RF desk located in the Hall. The CPD RF engineer would determine if the device could broadcast without interference.

176 comments

  1. i.e. I think I can ignore the law if I want to by Bruce66423 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Of course given that's the basis on which the USA came into existence in the first place, maybe we shouldn't be surprised if people are still offering that sort of justification... ;)

    1. Re:i.e. I think I can ignore the law if I want to by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The law bans active jamming of Wifi signals. That is not what Hofstra did. They just made a policy announcement. That is not the same thing at all.

      Should it be illegal for movie theaters to have cellphone bans? How is this different?

    2. Re:i.e. I think I can ignore the law if I want to by smooth+wombat · · Score: 0

      The trolls appear. The reason the U.S. exists is because it got tired of being England's whipping boy and paying tax after tax but getting nothing in return.

      The colonies then pursued peaceful means by sending protest letter after protest letter to the King outlining the usurpations they were enduring and even suggested remedies.

      In the end the King ignored all peaceful attempts at resolving the underlying issues. Only then did the colonists take up arms against those they perceived as oppressors.

      Hardly ignoring the law.

      --
      We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
    3. Re:i.e. I think I can ignore the law if I want to by MightyMartian · · Score: 0, Troll

      The American colonists had rather short memories, and seemed to forget that vast amount of coin Great Britain had to spend to defend its American holdings during the French and Indian War.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    4. Re:i.e. I think I can ignore the law if I want to by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The American colonists had rather short memories, and seemed to forget that vast amount of coin Great Britain had to spend to defend its American holdings during the French and Indian War.

      Not to mention the tax increase ended up being the second lowest tax increase in history, after the Springfield Bear Patrol tax.

    5. Re: i.e. I think I can ignore the law if I want to by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry, but this is elementary school history level, on par with the Peaceful Thanksgiving and abolition-as-the-motive Civil War fairytales. Grab an adult-oriented history book sometimes

    6. Re:i.e. I think I can ignore the law if I want to by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      that vast amount of coin Great Britain had to spend to defend its Canadian holdings during the French and Indian War

      FTFY

    7. Re:i.e. I think I can ignore the law if I want to by WolfgangVL · · Score: 0

      This is different because the movie theater is not offering you the use of a acceptable cellphone at a $200.00 price point.

      --
      You are being ripped off every second of every day, so that advertisers can help rip you off even more tomorrow.
    8. Re:i.e. I think I can ignore the law if I want to by MightyMartian · · Score: 2, Informative

      Um, the French and Indian War was between 1756 and 1763. There was no "Canada", save as a bit of a colloquial expression for the New France, which became British after the defeat of French forces in 1759.

      You might note that the American War of Independence didn't begin until 1775, and "Canada" didn't become a formal name until 1791 when the former territories of New France were carved into Upper Canada, where many Empire Loyalists were settling, and Lower Canada, where the Quebecois were dominant, and these two colonies later became Ontario and Quebec.

      So what you wrote is factually wrong. The French and Indian Wars was a war between France and Britain, an arena of the larger Seven Years War, and most certainly involved the defense of the British colonies (including but not limited to the Thirteen "American" colonies) in North America.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    9. Re:i.e. I think I can ignore the law if I want to by grcumb · · Score: 1

      Um, the French and Indian War was between 1756 and 1763. There was no "Canada", save as a bit of a colloquial expression for the New France, which became British after the defeat of French forces in 1759.

      Nitpick: The Treaty of Paris was signed in 1763. That was when the colony formally became British.

      --
      Crumb's Corollary: Never bring a knife to a bun fight.
    10. Re:i.e. I think I can ignore the law if I want to by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      walking up to a person and telling them that they have to turn off their device sounds like it would burn a few calories to me. I'm sure some doctors probably don't think that's active enough but, ymmv.

    11. Re:i.e. I think I can ignore the law if I want to by dougmc · · Score: 3, Insightful

      How is this different?

      Only the FCC can regulate the airwaves, much like only the FAA can regulate the navigable skies.

      Now, this idea of it being physical trespassing if somebody doesn't comply is interesting, but this has come up before, such as what happened here.

    12. Re: i.e. I think I can ignore the law if I want to by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe a good biography of Ben Franklin. You could read all about the Hutchinson Letters and Franklin's relationship with Parliament... you may be surprised to discover that this "elementary school history" has some truth to it.

    13. Re:i.e. I think I can ignore the law if I want to by by+(1706743) · · Score: 1

      Not to mention the fact that, AFAIK, there's no real ban on cellphones vis-a-vis data usage/spectrum usage in theaters -- there's only a ban on making noise/light. There shouldn't be a problem downloading Wikipedia in the background during a movie, so long as your phone is on silent.

      ...and seriously, $200? And I thought the in-flight wifi was expensive...

    14. Re:i.e. I think I can ignore the law if I want to by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Ah yes, vast amounts. It's so difficult to pay for a war when you have colonists to house, feed, equip, and serve as your troops. The first tax Parliament raised was used almost entirely to pay back colonists for supporting "more than their share" (Parliament's words) of soldiers during the war. It's a bit annoying to be taxed, just so that your government can pay the debt it owes you. When Franklin was called before Parliament to explain why no one was paying the tax, he had to explain that there wasn't enough hard currency in all the colonies put together to pay it. So yeah, those colonists sure were jerks!

    15. Re:i.e. I think I can ignore the law if I want to by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How does this (and that) relate to public/private places - i.e. Can't they just eject the offending item/owner citing that they just don't allow them?

    16. Re: i.e. I think I can ignore the law if I want to by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's different because cell phones really do annoy other paying customers in a theater, and their screens really do interfere with the darkened environment.

      This, on the other hand, is made up bullshit designed to make everyone pay $250 and quite likely to enable spying on the media using made up nonsense technical excuses. (The spying may or may not be done in cooperation or with the knowledge of the actual network operators of course, but there's no way our corrupt law enforcement is gonna pass up an opportunity like that and consequently no way I'd ever connect to any wifi network anywhere near a high profile event except maybe for the most basic non personal things)

      Either that or whoever is in charge of tech there is a know nothing fearful control freak like the guy I worked with once who'd blame every single wifi netwotk failure on the use of a microwave oven hundreds of feet away. Which was funny the day I unplugged the thing and waited for the inevitable network problem, which was of course actually caused by poor provisioning and bad network management. Competent network managers magically fixed all that.

      Yes, I know how wifi works, more than average people. More hotspots equals reduced range and reduced throughout. Not really a huge deal when the required range is a couple of feet and the situation is temporary.

    17. Re: i.e. I think I can ignore the law if I want to by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not quite right. What the Colonists were upset about was the fact that Parliment gave special tax deals to large British companies, most notably the British East India Company, enabling them to unfairly compete against local businesses.

      Yes, the Boston Tea Party was really a protest against corporate welfare. Seriously.

      Of course that's not how it's taught in schools because people these days might start getting ideas if they learn their own true history.

    18. Re: i.e. I think I can ignore the law if I want to by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      I would. Law enforcement is notorious for having crappy security themselves, twice so on their snooping devices. You can learn so many interesting things from them.

      Not from law enforcement, from their toys! You thought "if you don't know who controls your device, it ain't you" only applies to Windows 10?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    19. Re: i.e. I think I can ignore the law if I want to by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      The Founding Fathers were not only fighting the system but they were actually fighting a system propping up corporations?

      They were *gasp* socialists?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    20. Re:i.e. I think I can ignore the law if I want to by stealth_finger · · Score: 1

      Should it be illegal for movie theaters to have cellphone bans? How is this different?

      It seems different because they said you can't use your own thing, you have to pay us $200 to use ours, rather than x is banned.

      --
      Wanna buy a shirt?
      https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
    21. Re: i.e. I think I can ignore the law if I want to by sabbede · · Score: 1
      There was a rather lengthy list of grievances, taxes being only one.

      He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good. He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them. He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only. He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures. He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people. He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within. He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands. He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary powers. He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries. He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance. He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures. He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power. He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation: For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us: For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States: For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world: For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent: For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury: For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies: For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments: For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever. He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us. He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people. He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation. He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands. He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

    22. Re:i.e. I think I can ignore the law if I want to by houghi · · Score: 1

      I think it would be illegal if they not only asked you to NOT use your phone but provide one of their phones at 7.50USD for the duration of the movie.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    23. Re: i.e. I think I can ignore the law if I want to by sabbede · · Score: 1
      Well, no, not really. For one, many of the colonies themselves were charted as corporations, as were many businesses within. In fact, it was the Virginia Corporation that established the first permanent British colony and sent off the single most valuable cargo shipment in history (first shipment of tobacco), driving Britain's interest in colonizing North America. And of course, Socialism wouldn't exist for another century or so.

      Long story short, don't be so hard on corporations in general (some specific corps deserve it though). The nation probably wouldn't exist without them.

    24. Re:i.e. I think I can ignore the law if I want to by sabbede · · Score: 1

      There were multiple taxes that upset the Colonies, many of which were 100% increases (not having existed previously). What really got them upset wasn't that there were taxes, but that they didn't have say in the matter. Hence, "No Taxation Without Representation!"

    25. Re:i.e. I think I can ignore the law if I want to by sabbede · · Score: 1

      You mean the global Seven Years War that Britain started by attacking the French colonies in modern Canada? Gee, I wonder why the colonists would have been upset by Britain starting a war with their neighbors and then having taxes imposed on them to pay for it without being given any say on the matter.

    26. Re:i.e. I think I can ignore the law if I want to by sabbede · · Score: 1

      No, that was more like "Laws imposed upon the governed without their just consent are invalid". Or, if you like, "We don't have to obey laws that we didn't get to vote on in any way."

    27. Re:i.e. I think I can ignore the law if I want to by DriveDog · · Score: 1

      Actually... what made a few mad enough to take action was the lowering of the tax rate in conjunction with strict enforcement, which would make life much harder for smugglers.

    28. Re:i.e. I think I can ignore the law if I want to by rickb928 · · Score: 1

      "Only the FCC can regulate the airwaves, much like only the FAA can regulate the navigable skies."

      Define 'regulate'. You mean send men with guns when someone does what is not allowed?

      Of do you mean escorting a user to the 'RF Desk' to agree to stop doing what is not to be tolerated?

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    29. Re:i.e. I think I can ignore the law if I want to by rickb928 · · Score: 1

      Sure they can. Ejecting the media because they want to use their hotspots instead of buying a $200 ticket to cover the First 2016 Presidential Debate might, to some seem questionable, for a variety of reasons. Like keeping the bloggers out.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    30. Re:i.e. I think I can ignore the law if I want to by rickb928 · · Score: 1

      True. Much of that territory became Massachusetts. Then Maine.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    31. Re:i.e. I think I can ignore the law if I want to by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Movie theaters don't ban you carrying a cellphone and having it turned on during a movie. What they do ban is talking during the movie (whether on a phone or otherwise) and using illuminated screens that distract the patrons around them.

      If the rule for the debate was "no use of bright screens at all", then that could perhaps be justified in the same way as for movie theaters -- it's potentially distracting. Allowing the use of such devices while regulating the frequency and encryption key they must use to transmit seems less defensible, and is clearly just a money-grab.

    32. Re:i.e. I think I can ignore the law if I want to by sabbede · · Score: 1
      Britain did a lot of things that made a lot of colonists angry. More than anything, it was that all local authority was being transferred back to Britain, thousands of miles away, and their political rights were being taken along for the ride. As they did in Britain, the colonists had the right to vote, they had local and regional representative governments, they had courts and laws, they had someone to go to if they had a grievance. Parliament was taking all of it away.

      Smugglers might not have been so upset if they could have still gone to a local assemblyman to say, "don't do this!", but suddenly anyone who wanted to do so had to sail back to Britain, where they would be ignored.

  2. Like it would have mattered by bobbied · · Score: 2

    When you have a large group of people sucking data on their cell phones in an area where they don't usually congregate, it's likely NOBODY will get ANY data to start with. Cell phone networks are usually provisioned for "just enough" capacity under normal circumstances and where they sometimes build in extra capacity in places where large crowds tend to gather regularly, they usually dump the bandwidth available to data into carrying voice as the crowd grows.

    So... Even if you had turned on your cell data, it's unlikely to have been very useful once the crowd started to show up and post on their facebook and twitter feeds.

    So, pay up if you want WiFi that's going to work you fools.

    --
    "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    1. Re:Like it would have mattered by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You seem to be drastically underestimating the speed/capacity of LTE/4G networks. That audience was not *THAT* big, and the article specifies journalists... It's not like the whole crowd was trying to stream video out over their skype/facetime/other apps.

      The "policy" sounds like a blatant money grab, and since they try to justify it by BS'ing about their separate network, and interference issues, Part 15 of the FCC rules could maybe come into play.

    2. Re:Like it would have mattered by dknj · · Score: 3, Interesting

      you underestimate the free or low cost tenant agreements mobile providers are given by the universities. on my little podunk state-funded school, we had 8 base stations per building to ensure sufficient coverage. they would provide additional mobile base stations for larger activities such as graduation. you know the one commonality all these devices shared? a fiber connection back to a switch in a room they controlled and an rj45 that came out which we gladly provided free bandwidth on our (then) internet2 backhaul. 2 hops and they were directly on the federal and education funded backbone (of the time).

      this was over 10 years ago. i'm pretty sure they (the mobile carriers) can handle the large^H^H^H^H^H relatively small gathering of people using data.

      -dk

    3. Re:Like it would have mattered by Snotnose · · Score: 1

      They actually have base stations in semi trucks they can move to where they need the data, add power and voila!

    4. Re:Like it would have mattered by NoKaOi · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You don't think a system at a university university with over 10k students streaming video over youtube, Facebook, netflix, etc, could handle a bunch of tweeting reporters?

    5. Re:Like it would have mattered by bobbied · · Score: 1

      You don't think a system at a university university with over 10k students streaming video over youtube, Facebook, netflix, etc, could handle a bunch of tweeting reporters?

      No, I don't think the CELL system would have handled the increased load unless the venue was used often at this capacity...

      Plus, doing WiFi for 3,000 in a small building is a lit more complex than it seems to the casual user...

      But that's not what we are really talking about in this article. I get the feeling they are mixing up a couple of things that don't really go together.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    6. Re:Like it would have mattered by bobbied · · Score: 1

      Which takes time and $$ to do. So what's in it for the Cell company? Not much, unless the venue offers to pay for the increased service, which, if I could venture a guess, isn't high on the "need to spend money on this" list, given that this was a one time thing. Plus, it can be a *real* headache to try and add coverage for a few thousand handsets without making trouble for yourself by putting the cells to close together where they overlap too much and cause a bunch of thrashing as phones keep switching cells to be attached too.

      I've been to large and not so large venues that had horrible cell service when full of people but where fine when empty, usually it didn't matter because being on the phone wasn't the point of being there. Where I'm sure the cell companies would LOVE to collect some fees and provide better service to the venue, usually the venues don't care because the customers don't care, if the entertainment is good.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    7. Re:Like it would have mattered by slew · · Score: 1

      For a presidential debate that lasts only a few hours, I imagine the big 3 would gladly roll in a 4G-LTE COWs that can handle a few hundred journalists gratis. No service provider wants to get the reputation with journalists that they are unreliable for a big story like this. That would be death by a thousand small cuts of ink (and you never want to make enemies with someone who buys ink by the barrel)...

      For 5K joe-averages at generic-medium sized entertainment venue, well, one COW won't do it anyhow, and it probably isn't worth cost in petrol...

    8. Re:Like it would have mattered by sexconker · · Score: 1

      No, I don't think the CELL system would have handled the increased load unless the venue was used often at this capacity...

      Well, you're wrong.

      Plus, doing WiFi for 3,000 in a small building is a lit more complex than it seems to the casual user...

      But that's not what we are really talking about in this article. I get the feeling they are mixing up a couple of things that don't really go together.

      WiFi wasn't needed from the venue. People needed to be able to use their own connections. The venue wanted to profit. And yes, they're profiting. $200 per head for access, equipment and install and config done as a line item on someone else's dime, and they keep everything in the end.

    9. Re:Like it would have mattered by sphealey · · Score: 1

      I don't have a link for the specific article, but Washington University reported that they would have 8 portable cell towers in operation to supplement the usual service ( https://debate.wustl.edu/ ). That compares to the 1992 debate, when they had the phone company install 3500 temporary phone lines and converted athletic building showers into film developing cubicles [1]

      sPh

      fn1: still the 1904 Olympics gym and locker room at that time with heavy-duty tile everwhere

    10. Re:Like it would have mattered by PopeRatzo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No, I don't think the CELL system would have handled the increased load unless the venue was used often at this capacity...

      Hofstra has been used for this purpose before, and for much bigger conferences than the measly 1000 people in the hall last night.

      They charged $200/head for their wi-fi hotspot. $200,000 can pay for a lot of bandwidth for a 90 minute event.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    11. Re:Like it would have mattered by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No, it is about mutual benefit. Even if n journalists are competing for the limited cell signal, they will saturate 2.5 and 5ghz with hotspots, eliminating wifi as a useful tool.

      Using your phone as a camera or whatever would be fine... fight for cell signal. Everyone else benefits with more reliable wifi...

    12. Re:Like it would have mattered by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, pay up if you want WiFi that's going to work you fools.

      Because on the internet, it's not Free Speech, it's as much 'free speech' as you can afford. From your tone, I'd guess you can afford a lot. Enjoy it while it lasts.

    13. Re: Like it would have mattered by Dagmar+d'Surreal · · Score: 1

      The venue's measures would not change the situation. These devices do not operate with a requirement of exclusive access to frequencies. They *already* share spectrum remarkably well, and channel/frequency-hop and adjust power as necessary.

    14. Re: Like it would have mattered by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The venue's measures would not change the situation. These devices do not operate with a requirement of exclusive access to frequencies. They *already* share spectrum remarkably well, and channel/frequency-hop and adjust power as necessary.

      I guess you've never managed wifi setups with more than 2-3 devices. Remarkably well doesn't get you anywhere near 1000 devices, let alone users, and forget about 1000 APs running, in the same space, in uncoordinated fashion.

      However much of a bunch of fuckers they were to charge that much for something that was in their best interest (keep rogue APs out), they do have a point that they need to be able to ban hotspots in order to keep their own wifi functional.

    15. Re:Like it would have mattered by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      You think students wouldn't want to go online with their cell phones? Actually, PRIMARILY with their cell phone?

      What luddite university did you go to?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    16. Re:Like it would have mattered by rickb928 · · Score: 1

      "Cell phone networks are usually provisioned for "just enough" capacity under normal circumstances"

      Oh, like where I HAVE LUNCH MONDAY THROUGH THURSDAY?

      Yeah, where I eat lunch four days a week there is not enough cell capacity for those 2 hours when we all march out to eat, surf, and post.

      I can eat where 'free' WiFi is offered. If I choose something more interesting, I suffer the vagaries of cell service and the inadequate provisioning of my provider. Ack.

      And I stick it out, because the rest of the time it's good. My choice, my pain, feh.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    17. Re: Like it would have mattered by rickb928 · · Score: 1

      Then you accept it as a cost of doing business, add it to the expenses, and everyone is blissfully igonorant of your hard work making their experience easier.

      Or you profit.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    18. Re:Like it would have mattered by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You don't think a system at a university university with over 10k students streaming video over youtube, Facebook, netflix, etc, could handle a bunch of tweeting reporters?

      No, I don't think the CELL system would have handled the increased load unless the venue was used often at this capacity...

      Plus, doing WiFi for 3,000 in a small building is a lit more complex than it seems to the casual user...

      But that's not what we are really talking about in this article. I get the feeling they are mixing up a couple of things that don't really go together.

      You've never been to a major SF convention. 3K people is nothing.

  3. Trump by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

    Fucking journalists. I can't wait till Trump gets in office. Hopefully he'll develop a central news agency that is charged with releasing ALL NEWS to everyone in America, and make it a requirement for anyone that wants to tattle on people (journalists) to have to pay a fee to access this agency's resources, in order to spread the (well edited) "news". He can use that money to pay for more guns/ammo/military vehicles/hunting camps/gas for the police to track down these fucking tattle-tails. Just letting people say whatever they want over WI-FI is just fuckin steeeewwwwpid! Shit costs!!

    1. Re:Trump by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      Well, of course he will because "I'm SMART!"

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    2. Re:Trump by galabar · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I think central new agencies are a product of the left. Don't expect one with a Trump presidency.

    3. Re:Trump by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Indeed, central news agencies are a staple of such renowned leftist leaders as Kim Jong-un and Vladimir Putin.

    4. Re: Trump by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You mean as opposed to the 5 or 6 corporations that own almost all media outlets in the US, all of which tout corporate friendly lines and ignore corporate hostile stories? That kind of central media?

    5. Re:Trump by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    6. Re: Trump by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Right. I mean, after all, everyone knows we had a dirty liberal President and Congress when the Department of Homeland Security was created. Oh...wait...

    7. Re:Trump by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The last two agencies created (Department of Homeland Security, and Department of Veteran's Affairs) were both created under Republican presidents.

      Relatedly, which party has raised the national debt more in the past 30 years? The Democrats, or the "balance the budget/starve the beast" Republicans? (I actually don't know, but I know debts have grown a ton under Republican administrations.)

      You may want to rethink your sterotyping of political parties, and look past the soundbites and reputations to what they actually do when in office.

  4. Re:There's plenty of space by bobbied · · Score: 1

    Which frequencies are you suggesting they use?

    Spectrum is expensive and a finite resource for practical purposes and you have to coordinate who's using which ones where and when to avoid interfering with each other. You cannot just decide, say to use the frequencies dedicated to GPS use for high speed long distance data transmission, without creating an issue for the existing spectrum users.

    By and large, this is exactly why the FCC and the ITU exist, to manage the spectrum space..

    --
    "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
  5. Sounds like somebody was doing someone a favor. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Or perhaps it was just another "national security" concern where they deemed it necessary to monitor communication over the network.

    1. Re:Sounds like somebody was doing someone a favor. by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Apparently free press is increasingly becoming a threat to national security.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  6. This device must not... by Bartles · · Score: 0

    ...cause interference and must accept any unwanted interference.

    1. Re:This device must not... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...cause interference and must accept any unwanted interference.

      Those damned legal license terms for part 15 devices.... They sure suck.

  7. So They think they have a license for that band? by random+coward · · Score: 0

    Sounds like the debate/hofstra thinks they have a license for that band and don't have to accept any and all interference like FCC Part15 specifies. I don't think this will end well for them.

  8. Doesn't have to be a WiFi hotspot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I know reporters aren't the most tech savvy, but tethering to a LTE modem via USB should have been fine, right?

    1. Re:Doesn't have to be a WiFi hotspot by swalve · · Score: 1

      Or just bite the bullet and get a LTE card for their laptops?

  9. not limitless by OrangeTide · · Score: 3, Interesting

    There is not a limitless amount of bandwidth to broadcast in a small area. Most of these devices are operating in the same spectrum (since they are WiFi, UHF and SHF). The FCC almost certainly has the exclusive legal right to regulate the radio spectrum, but the organizer of an event should be given some way to coordinate and organize access to the limited resource. That the FCC lacks any way for an event to legally do something that I believe they should be doing. I argue that the FCC needs a form and a fee for this sort of thing before organizers are allowed to restrict WiFi access. And that requests are temporary and limited to santioned events and not for a coffee shop or theme park that wants to gouge customers.

    Of course I'm ignoring the issue of free speech. Does your right to free speech include running your own WiFi network to circumvent a potentially malicious organization's WiFi?

    $200 per head seems about right on price, if I had to hire some consultants to throw together a network for 3 days, then tear it all down, seems like a bargain.

    --
    “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
    1. Re:not limitless by ewhac · · Score: 4, Interesting

      $200 per head seems about right on price, if I had to hire some consultants to throw together a network for 3 days, then tear it all down, seems like a bargain

      I dunno what prices you've been conned into paying, but that parses as gouging to me.

      Consultants aren't necessary; Hofstra already has an IT infrastructure and staff in place. At worst, they'd have to deploy a couple dozen more WAPs and maybe a 24-port switch if you don't already have the ports free -- maybe USD$4000.00 worth of HW. Set up a new SSID for the reporters with a WPA2 login, which lands you on a temporary VLAN and subnet that routes directly to the Internet and nowhere else. Takes maybe a day to set up, and most of that is CS interns/undergrads pulling Cat.6 and placing WAPs/antennas.

      After the debate, turn off the SSID, VLAN, and subnet -- you can pull out the WAPs (if you must) at your leisure. Put the HW away; save it for the next big event, or when an endowment arrives for the next building.

      How does this justify $200/head? (Seriously; what am I not figuring here?)

    2. Re:not limitless by bobbied · · Score: 1

      I was thinking that $200 was a bit too low, given the transitory nature of the setup, use 3 days and move on part of this... Network engineers on travel don't come cheap you know.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    3. Re:not limitless by CanadianMacFan · · Score: 1

      $200/head might be the price point that the media companies won't complain.

    4. Re:not limitless by infolation · · Score: 2

      As soon as you see a phrase like "defray the costs of the buildout" used to translate "we've turned your wifi off to make some money", you know they're struggling to justify what they're doing..

    5. Re:not limitless by Lose · · Score: 1

      If I gave them the benefit of the doubt, perhaps it was strategic: price it high enough to limit the strain on their wireless network, but then similarly not so high that those who would actually use it and need it to be reliable are screwed over. Then sod off anyone who didn't like it. Not that I'd expect them to actually come out and say something like that.

      But, let's keep going and try to make it look better for them.

      If we assume they sprung for high-end enterprise grade access points that won't drop dead under the load of several hundred clients in the area given, then a dozen access points might be at least a five-figure deal right off the bat. If the requirements for "separate network" also indicate complete physical isolation then additional equipment would likely be required. In addition to some decent switching equipment, they might need a good firewall to withstand the abuse. Maybe additional expense if they extended isolation to where they sourced their Internet connection from, as well. Several media outlets might have requirements for uplink bandwidth necessary to stream their event if they aren't doing satellite uplink or something like that. Perhaps in that scenario it'd require someone getting an impromptu fiber run to the site of the event.

      If the "tuning" they indicated was figuring out what propagation looked like post-setup and making adjustments to the placement of their access points that'd entail at a minimum a few more intern hours or at worst a few more access points.

      I sincerely doubt that even given the above figuring they lost their shirt over this wireless network. But I'm sure at the same time if everyone and their grandmother took out portable MiFi units or turned on the hot spot feature for their phone the service would have been absolute shit and littered with clients and ad-hoc wireless devices operating on cross channels.

    6. Re:not limitless by evilviper · · Score: 1

      the organizer of an event should be given some way to coordinate and organize access to the limited resource.

      They can... They get an FCC licenses for restricted RF bands, and use those, instead of heavy-handed attempts at individuals co-opting and monopolizing unlicensed bands.

      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    7. Re:not limitless by tlhIngan · · Score: 3, Informative

      If I gave them the benefit of the doubt, perhaps it was strategic: price it high enough to limit the strain on their wireless network, but then similarly not so high that those who would actually use it and need it to be reliable are screwed over. Then sod off anyone who didn't like it. Not that I'd expect them to actually come out and say something like that.

      Except it did go down. It completely collapsed under the load.

      I understand the need and that if everyone brought their own hotspot that it would be completely useless. But that's not the way to do it. At $200, it sounds like gouging - especially when you consider they actually did active scans for unauthorized WiFi and escorted people out.

      The problem is many - first, the price appeared to be gouging. Second, active WiFi scanning - granted, they didn't jam (which was what got the hotels in trouble) but escorted you off the premises so it was technically legal. Third, they could've offered suggestions that people use hard wire (USB) tethers or built-in WWAN modems to achieve connectivity instead of WiFI Most of the people there would be using tablets, laptops, etc, many models of which have WWAN capability either built-in through USB dongles. Or a USB cable to their phones (practically all smartphones allow USB tethering)

      Because right now, it appears to be gouging. Which is why the FCC is irked. I'm sure if they simply suggested other methods, politely asked anyone using WiFi to turn it off and use non-WiFi methods, etc.

      Yes, a lot of wifi causes problems - Apple has had problems during their keynotes because everyone had their hotspots on, but there are many ways it can be handled without it seeming like pure greed.

    8. Re:not limitless by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How does this justify $200/head? (Seriously; what am I not figuring here?)

      Hint: Profit.

    9. Re:not limitless by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... Seriously; what am I not figuring here?

      Not every journalist will be online. So the cost can't be distributed over every journalist who walks through the door.

    10. Re:not limitless by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So there is no cost associated with this build out because they already have staff

      Couple dozen waps. Ok so let's do the math

      Cheap unmanaged switch 24 ports vlan capable around 400 to 600 bucks
      cheap WAPs no wireless lan controller manually tunable to frequency to not overlap probably 150 each

      Amount of time necessary to perform a site survey and optimally setup the above probably around 2500

      I'm coming up around 6700.

      That's not even taking into account Staff Costs to run wiring hang ap's etc etc.

      divide 6700 by 200 and your at 33.5 individuals.

      I'm confident there were more then 33 individuals trying to use the system

      Frankly 200 is a bargain considering the scope of need.

      Furthermore this example is an absolute barebones approach. For something as important as the debate I would leave nothing to chance and would have blanketed the area with aps and a WLC properly surveyed and non overlapping.

      Asking people to refrain from using their own hotspot to prevent interference is very reasonable.

    11. Re:not limitless by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You aren't accounting for the fact that higher ed is where engineers go to retire early. Higher ed techs would rather sit around a table and talk about doing something or speculating about a configuration (rather than taking 2 minutes to check) than to do actual work - this results in pretty low skill IT all around, and the simplest task becomes a 'project'.

      Add to that the fact that this was an unbelievably high-profile event (meaning management is going to be sticking their fingers into everything) and no way you're having unskilled interns doing *anything*. And the guys who have been there forever? They aren't risking their benefits by doing a thing, so they hire outsiders to do it.

      Full disclosure - I'm one of those outsiders, though I have not worked with Hofstra specifically.

    12. Re:not limitless by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Clearly nobody on /. knows Hofstra. If there's money to be made, however slimy the justification, good ol' Hofstra will find a way. "We Sell Success" has been the University motto for decades now. Great school, lousy administrative policies.

    13. Re:not limitless by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      WiFi installation should be around $40k for a large building. If temporary, then on the lower end as you can reclaim the equipment. But people still gotta measure signal strength, lay cable, etc. It's not free to setup a decent network.

      IT staff may not be free to work on a project if they have other duties. Usually you hire a contractor that brings their own gear and staff.

    14. Re:not limitless by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's an interesting thought, but then how do you distribute the equipment to journalists? The standard these days for Apple and Android lovers is WiFi and BlueTooth.

  10. LTE-U by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Whenever a RF-emitting device was located, the technician notified the individual to visit the RF desk located in the Hall. The CPD RF engineer would determine if the device could broadcast without interference." says it was more than just announcement of a policy.

    And if CPD really believes their claims that they can't operate if devices outside their control broadcast in the unlicensed range then I expect to see them join the lobby against allowing cellular service providers to co-opt it with LTE-U ...

    1. Re: LTE-U by Luthair · · Score: 2

      With private property they can ask you to leave for pretty much any reason.

    2. Re: LTE-U by bobbied · · Score: 3, Informative

      THIS!

      You cannot emit RF to jam signals on your property, but finding an RF emitter and ejecting it (along with the owner) from the premises is permitted. You get bonus points for spelling out these terms in a signed contract too...

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    3. Re: LTE-U by BenFranske · · Score: 2

      Signed contracts are so 80s. These days you shrink-wrap contracts, or in this case you just put it on the back of the ticket or in the T&C you have to click through to obtain a ticket.

    4. Re: LTE-U by davester666 · · Score: 1

      I don't know why these dolts didn't just use USB. Oh, right. They're liberal arts grads.

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    5. Re: LTE-U by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Nah, just put it on the back of the ticket, should be enough. If they buy a ticket and then find out they cannot comply with the rules, sucks to be them.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    6. Re:LTE-U by rickb928 · · Score: 1

      SneakerJamming.

      It really doesn't matter whether you broadcast RF interference to deny a user's hotspot, or escort them to the 'RF Desk' to be told they will be removed from the venue if they do not comply.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
  11. Re:So They think they have a license for that band by bloodhawk · · Score: 2

    There is nothing that says you must allow people to use devices within your premises. while the fees sound excessive and were probably just a money grab I can't see why you think PCC Part15 would apply. It is actually farely reasonable in a wifi area to restrict how many wifi access points people can turn on to prevent interference (that you must accept if it is there).

  12. Blocking is illegal, but this isn't... by bobbied · · Score: 2

    The "blocking" that was illegal uses RF to kill a rouge access point, intentionally interfering with a licensed use of the spectrum the FCC is tasked to regulate..... This is squarely in the wheel house of the FCC, who's job includes protecting the licensed users of spectrum from interference.

    What was done here is put a requirement in a contract that required you to turn off your RF emitters carried into the facility unless the facility engineer approved it's use. This is 100% legal and the FCC doesn't have anything authority to regulate this. In fact, this is commonly referred to as "frequency coordination" and given the large number of possible devices showing up, makes perfect sense to me. You don't want some rouge RF device getting turned on and interfering with Lester's Wireless microphone in the middle of a question. So, you make it part of your contract that ALL RF emitting devices are subject to inspection and approval before they are allowed into the venue and turned on.

    So the two cases are not the same and the venue operator has broken no laws.

    --
    "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    1. Re: Blocking is illegal, but this isn't... by Luthair · · Score: 3, Funny

      Damn reporters tarting up their access points with makeup, shouldn't be allowed.

    2. Re:Blocking is illegal, but this isn't... by BenFranske · · Score: 2

      Exactly this. What the University can't prohibit is someone on different property running a competing wifi network. If they allow some hotspots or allowed you to pay a fee to run your own hotspot I could see some creative arguments to be made. What you absolutely don't have a right to do is to carry whatever you want onto someone else's property. Take for example weapons bans which prohibit students from bringing knives to school, to Disney World, etc. You can tell people that they are not welcome if they bring X onto your property all you want.

    3. Re:Blocking is illegal, but this isn't... by rahvin112 · · Score: 2

      Nobody that entered the arena signed a contract. You wanna claim that show me one.

      If I was one of the reporters I would have run my wifi hotspot from inside a pocket or backpack.

      There is simply no reasonable way you can enforce a restriction like this without jamming wifi hotspots. You'd need a ton of gear and a bunch of trained people to find the people running hotspots (triangulating this down to a single person in a group of a hundred people using wifi would be a serious pain in the ass) and eject them and I don't' think for a minute they had this gear. I fully believe they turned on the jamming feature in their routers just like the hotels and then forced everyone to buy wifi access. Though they might have the property rights to eject people for using hotspots (this is not a settled issue, no one can regulate the airwaves except for the FCC and this is certainly regulating the use of wifi), they certainly didn't have the power to enforce such a ban without jammers.

      I hope to god if they were using Jammers they hit them with a $750K fine like they did the last Hotel that was caught using jammers.

    4. Re:Blocking is illegal, but this isn't... by evilviper · · Score: 1

      What you absolutely don't have a right to do is to carry whatever you want onto someone else's property. Take for example weapons bans which prohibit students from bringing knives to school, to Disney World, etc.

      Except you increasingly DO have that right.

      "a growing number of states are passing laws where the right to ban firearms does not extend to vehicles in employer parking lots."
      - http://www.employmentlawdaily....

      Schools are increasingly being thrown open to concealed guns:
      - http://neatoday.org/2015/03/26...

      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    5. Re:Blocking is illegal, but this isn't... by lgw · · Score: 2

      So, you're telling me that selling licenses to use part of the radio spectrum for $200 is somehow not licensing the spectrum?

      Man, some people will twist themselves into knots to defend anything.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    6. Re:Blocking is illegal, but this isn't... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If my cell phone interferes with Lester's mic, there's something wrong with his mic, not my cell phone, as wireless mics are not permitted in the cell bands.
      All Hofstra had to do is grab a bunch of wireless APs, use all the available frequencies/channels, make them password protected and the reporters hotspots wouldn't work. Tell the reporters they can have access for $200 or go fish.

    7. Re:Blocking is illegal, but this isn't... by bobbied · · Score: 2

      No licenses where being sold, and the $200 was for access to the WiFi network, paying for the service. Apart from violating the TOS I have with my provider, I can sell wifi service to you....

      You guys are conflating is two separate things.... The "selling" of WiFi service (which is 100% legal), and the desire of the venue to coordinate the use of both licensed and part 15 intentional emitters within the confines of the venue which is legal too.

      But hey, don't let me get in your way of a good story line...

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    8. Re:Blocking is illegal, but this isn't... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They own the venue and can tell you to stop interfering with them. You don't have a right to yell over the speakers and can be tossed out if you do.
      What would give a person the right to interfere, even in the slightest, with their radio signals?

    9. Re:Blocking is illegal, but this isn't... by acoustix · · Score: 1

      What you absolutely don't have a right to do is to carry whatever you want onto someone else's property. Take for example weapons bans which prohibit students from bringing knives to school, to Disney World, etc. You can tell people that they are not welcome if they bring X onto your property all you want.

      This isn't the same. I'm still allowed to take my mobile device into the event. They just didn't want me to use a certain feature of that device. That is different than not allowing an item altogether.

      --
      "A plan fiendishly clever in its intricacies"- Homer Simpson
    10. Re:Blocking is illegal, but this isn't... by bobbied · · Score: 1

      Oh sure it is.. Private property owners are given great latitude in controlling who may access their property and under what terms they allow access. For instance the venue owner may make the following rule:

      You may bring in your phone, but you must declare it and it must remain in airplane mode at all times on the premises. (which is actually MORE restrictive than what happened here)

      Then the owners can legally enforce that rule by searching people entering, refusing to allow anybody who doesn't agree to these terms and further remove anybody (along with their device) should they violate the rule. There is nothing illegal about this as long as they don't start jamming using RF emitting devices...

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    11. Re:Blocking is illegal, but this isn't... by BenFranske · · Score: 1

      First, note thought that I was using the firearms example as a hyperbolic one, it's a harder argument to ban them due to constitutional protection and even so we're just beginning to see erosion of the right to ban them. Electronic devices would be somewhere far down the list. Second, we're not talking about a parking lot here, we're talking about an already secured area where many other things are also prohibited.

    12. Re:Blocking is illegal, but this isn't... by lgw · · Score: 1

      The obvious and intended effect of their actions was to deny access to that part of the spectrum unless a fee was paid. But keep inventing legal fictions - but why would you even try to defend these schmucks?

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    13. Re:Blocking is illegal, but this isn't... by bobbied · · Score: 1

      Gee, I will stick to my perspective while you keep changing yours...

      First they where selling licenses, but that didn't work with the facts so you dropped that. Now they where denying access to part of the spectrum, which isn't true either...

      They where NOT preventing anybody from operating on any spectrum they wished, you could walk outside of the venue and crank up your WiFi hotspot anytime you wished. Private property owners have the right to allow or deny any activity on their property they choose, including restricting if, when and where you may operate your cell phone with the wireless option turned on. Heck, they can even do things like refusing to allow you to enter carrying a firearm, a camera or recording device, carrying candy, drinks or food into the venue. They can enforce a dress code, make you wear shoes and a shirt, make you buy a ticket and/or enter into a contract which governs what you will and won't be allowed to do. How's saying "You can bring that cell phone in, but you cannot set up a private hotspot" not allowed? They could just ban them outright along with cell phones and any other devices they didn't want inside the venue if they wanted after all.

      If we don't have such property rights in this country, then why do we call it "private property"?

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    14. Re:Blocking is illegal, but this isn't... by evilviper · · Score: 1

      Electronic devices would be somewhere far down the list.

      Except these electronic devices can call 911 in the event of emergency, which gives them all manner of very special legal protections.

      Second, we're not talking about a parking lot here,

      That was only one of the two exceptions I referenced. The other isn't limited to parking lots.

      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    15. Re:Blocking is illegal, but this isn't... by lgw · · Score: 1

      They where NOT preventing anybody from operating on any spectrum they wished, you could walk outside of the venue and crank up your WiFi hotspot anytime you wished. Private property owners have the right to allow or deny any activity on their property they choose

      C'mon, that's so obviously not true I'm not sure how you finished typing it. Anyway, the airwaves are special. You can't charge a fee to have access to them on your property. (So many things are special that it's hard to think of them as special cases these days - there are exceptions to just about everything you wrote - for example, you can't make rules that have the effect of excluding black people from your property. There's lots of case law around dress codes.) Excluding is different from restricting to only those who pay a fee.

      If we don't have such property rights in this country, then why do we call it "private property"?

      Conservatives asking that for years now. Just try creating a pond on your property!

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    16. Re:Blocking is illegal, but this isn't... by bobbied · · Score: 1

      Well, now, cranking up your WiFi hotspot is NOT a legally protected activity nor does it put you in a protected class (Unless you want to argue it makes you part of some racial group or something). WiFi hot spots are already banned at other places and times (like on airplanes by the FAA). Way to go for the deflection...So around the bush again we go..

      This facility was within it's rights to ban WiFi hot spots from entering or being turned on, just like it can ban guns, knives, glass containers, alcohol, food, or even bottles of water from coming thought the door. There is no legal protected right that allows you to cry foul for any of this. Don't like it, leave. Also, this legally protected class business does NOT apply to non-commercial properties (such as my home) where ANYBODY can be denied access for ANY reason I choose. If you show up in my house uninvited where I live, I can even shoot you. Public businesses have a few more restrictions, but they too can limit access to their facilities to say "Members Only" or place other restrictions/conditions upon access as long as they don't discriminate on the basis of a protected class.

      In this case, there was no "protected class" argument to be made, so you are just being evasive.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    17. Re:Blocking is illegal, but this isn't... by lgw · · Score: 1

      You keep ignoring the difference between "banning everyone", and "only allowing those who pay a fee". Why is that?

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
  13. Someone just got ripped off by guruevi · · Score: 2

    I've seen the commercial offerings that claim you need to tune the antennas. They seem to have gone a step further and have a dedicated tech for "detecting interference". At best it is a hotspot management tool, usually it's expensive snake oil. Especially on a small area like this, a good set of APs should be able to handle the "load" and have enough power to handle other APs, especially the weak phone ones.

    --
    Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
  14. Not Surprising... by prince+hal · · Score: 1, Funny

    Wikipedia lists Bernie Madoff as one of the university's notable alumni. Discuss amongst yourselves...

  15. Re:So They think they have a license for that band by Chmarr · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Unfortunately, putting any kind of restriction on a part-15 device is exactly "sub-licensing", which you're not allowed to do.

    That it was private property is... going to be an interesting argument :)

  16. must have been 802.11b by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Perhaps the debate organizers should seek a refund from the network vendor

  17. Re:So They think they have a license for that band by bobbied · · Score: 1

    If you visit my house and your part 15 device interferes with mine, guess who shuts off their device or leaves?

    --
    "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
  18. Re: i.e. I think I can ignore the law if I want t by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Recommendations?

  19. Why the heck can't they just use a cable? by ZorinLynx · · Score: 2

    I can totally understand banning Wifi hotspot access points at big crowded events like this. Just a few dozen in the same area is enough to completely use all available bandwidth in the form of beacons. Performance will suck for EVERYONE, including the venue WiFi.

    Why not just use a cable? Most phones support tethering over USB, and it'll even perform better than WiFi hotspot mode because it's a direct cable connection so the only RF you're doing is cellular. I always try to do USB tethering when possible to avoid polluting the airwaves with my needless access point.

    1. Re:Why the heck can't they just use a cable? by evilviper · · Score: 1

      I can totally understand banning Wifi hotspot access points at big crowded events like this.

      I can totally understand many things which happen to be illegal. I don't think anyone is dumbfounded by the idea of theft, extortion, etc.

      Performance will suck for EVERYONE, including the venue WiFi.

      Then the venue should have licensed their own radio spectrum from the FCC. Guaranteed there would be zero contention for their band, then.

      You don't get to monopolize unlicensed spectrum, and tell people they can't use their legal devices around you. That's a recipe for the "electromagnetic sensitive" nut-jobs to demand everybody in proximity to them must shut off their cell phones. And the FCC takes a particularly dim view of this behavior when it's combined with FEES. If access to their on-site WiFi was free (and speeds were tolerable), the FCC probably would have just let it slide.

      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    2. Re:Why the heck can't they just use a cable? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What modern phone supports tethering over USB? Not Windows and iOS... does Android have it?

    3. Re: Why the heck can't they just use a cable? by Luthair · · Score: 1

      Actually on private property you can tell people they can't use their device or they can leave.

    4. Re: Why the heck can't they just use a cable? by evilviper · · Score: 1

      Actually on private property you can tell people they can't use their device or they can leave.

      Nope. There are presumably millions of exceptions to that statement. You're obviously not a lawyer, and clearly not qualified to weigh-in on whether any regs were violated. The fact that the FCC has taken an interest clearly shows it's not cut and dried.

      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    5. Re:Why the heck can't they just use a cable? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      YES!

    6. Re: Why the heck can't they just use a cable? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually on private property you can tell people they can't use their device or they can leave.

      Nope. There are presumably millions of exceptions to that statement. You're obviously not a lawyer, and clearly not qualified to weigh-in on whether any regs were violated. The fact that the FCC has taken an interest clearly shows it's not cut and dried.

      BZZZZZZ.... Fail.

      The FCC was ASKED TO INVESTIGATE by someone with political influence. Because of this, they will review the situation, and probably issue an opinion.

  20. Re:So They think they have a license for that band by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It is actually farely reasonable in a wifi area to restrict how many wifi access points people can turn on to prevent interference

    Actually it is not reasonable. The federal government through the auspices Federal Communication Commission (aka FCC) regulates all radio transmissions in the U.S. private property or not. The university has no role whatsoever or anybody else with private property. This has been proven through decades of case law. Just because you haul a transmitter device onto somebody's property suddenly give them the right to regulate rf devices themselves.

    Secondly, if the university was using certified FCC equipment, it has to be able to accept interference from other equipment operating nearby, which also happens to be regulated by the FCC and not the university.

    I really hope the FCC makes an example of the university and ding them with a seven digit fine, which is also under their discretion to do so.

  21. Libs Vs Libs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    So a liberal East coast institution of learning is trying to curtail the free use of the RF spectrum so that they may increase monetary wealth of the liberal East Coast socialites who hate the evil capitalistic system espoused by the racist candidate Trump? I would have never guessed (sarcasm)

      The difference between a republican and a democrat is the way the words are spelt. Both parties want to get rich, rich, rich and enslave the population of the USA. They keep the population duped and believing there is any difference and that it really matters who you vote for. No matter who you wins the election, the citizens of the USA will loose. But this is good business for Fox, CNN and /. so I guess it is all right.

  22. Re:So They think they have a license for that band by BenFranske · · Score: 1

    Sort of. I may not be allowed to regulate your Part 15 device (e.g. emission levels, etc.) but I can tell you not to bring it onto my property. There are absolutely private establishments which prohibit you from taking a cell phone, laptop, or just about anything else inside. There is no guaranteed right to bring anything you want onto someone else's property. Even guns, a right specifically enumerated by the constitution, can be prohibited from a private establishment.

  23. Re:There's plenty of space by BenFranske · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This. The FCC is important, RF regulation is important as spectrum is a shared resource and is not contained by walls, geographic boundaries, etc. Someone needs to be in charge of preventing interference and encouraging research of effective use of a limited resource.

    Side rant, I think it was a poor choice to raise a bunch of money by starting the sell spectrum to cell providers in the 90s instead of licensing it to them as had been done before and is still done for most frequencies. The FCC has effectively ceded regulatory control of huge chunks of spectrum so now a lot of power is concentrated into a few companies that own spectrum and it's not necessarily in their interest to pursue certain RF research or new RF technology and we have no societal via governmental way to force transitions to new technology. Imagine if TV stations owned their spectrum, we might never have been able to force a HD digital transition.

  24. Re:There's plenty of space by swalve · · Score: 1

    That's hard to get done for a one-off event at a university.

  25. Rogue wifi hotspots would be easy to find. by mmell · · Score: 1
    What about those of us who use Bluetooth tethering routinely? I only do it to take advantage of the vastly lower power requirements of Bluetooth (which my phone can serve all day) versus wifi (which'll slag my phone's batteries in under three hours, assuming they start out at 100%).

    *sigh*

    1. Re:Rogue wifi hotspots would be easy to find. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because the networks and newspapers buy cheap laptops without Bluetooth.

  26. I work for the media and... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I work as a freelance technician for the networks, but I was not at this event.

    At $200 the big media outlets won't care and probably already had made arrangements to have their own access point. What it will curtail is every Joe and Jane internet blogger live streaming the debates with a smartphone. I'm not opposed to bloggers, many are former journalists who have been downsized. They do a pretty decent job. Decent reporting and writing and a basic understanding of the business.The $200 fee will stop the others who have 8 followers and play journalist because it makes them feel important while the stream the event to their Moms.

    That being said, Marriott got a wrist slapping from the FCC for blocking WiFi signals. https://www.fcc.gov/document/warning-wi-fi-blocking-prohibited
    It was slightly different in this case because they did not actively block the signals. But sub-leasing part 15 devices is a not allowed. If it gets pushed, the FCC will probably tell them they were wrong and make them refund the fees. Protesting on the day or not complying are not viable options either, your credentials get yanked and/or the Secret Service puts you on their no-go list. Both bad for your career. When covering the POTUS and elections, you play by the Secret Service rules or go home, even if the are arbitrary and overreaching at times.

    On a related note, every major event that I have worked, has a local RF coordinator who works with the accredited media to coordinate all the radios at the event. Most modern wireless microphones are frequency agile and can be quickly adjusted in the field. When unexpected devices show up, they are tracked down and the offending device is brought into compliance or the party is excluded from the event. The frequencies involved are different, but I could see how one "accepted practice" of spectrum control gets carried into the WiFi realm by managers who are greedy or naive about it. It could be a bit of both.

  27. Re:So They think they have a license for that band by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 1

    But they weren't preventing people from bringing the devices onto their property.

    Instead, they were sublicensing the spectrum that the devices were using.

  28. Re:So They think they have a license for that band by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    INCORRECT. They are not putting a restriction on the devices operation, they are forbidding you from using the device. A restriction would be sub-licensing and not allowed. Not allowing their use at all is actually fine.

  29. Re:So They think they have a license for that band by bloodhawk · · Score: 1

    I can't regulate your device, but I can say you may not use your device. subtle but important difference.

  30. More like Jim Hoffa University by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hofstra spokesweasel, Karla Schuster: "The Rate Card fee of $200 for Wi-Fi access is to help defray the costs and the charge for the service does not cover the cost of the buildout. For Wi-Fi to perform optimally the system must be tuned with each access point and antenna."
     
    What a load of bullshit. Hofstra had a monopoly and knew they could charge whatever they fucking well wanted and get away with it. "Help defray costs" my ass. Someone should use FOI to expose Hofstra's Wifi budget then we can see if they were profiteering.

  31. Re:So They think they have a license for that band by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They were doing no such thing. They were flat out forbidding the use of the devices. perfectly ok, restricting how they use the devices would have been sublicensing.

  32. Re: There's plenty of space by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...and there's the thing. It's the FCC's job and purview to regulate the airwaves--not the venue's. The venue's cited reasons are bunk. Putting everyone on the same (their) SSID will not magically increase the bandwidth available.

  33. FTC on deceptive trade practices and bundling too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    $200.00 is a suspiciously nice round number for something that's supposed to only cover costs.

    Those posters saying "$200 per head sounds rights" are talking with their anuses. If OP said it was $400 or even $2K per head you can bet they would be saying the same thing. Maybe they're Hofstra PR attempting damage control. The Commission on Presidential Debates hasn't commented either on the "rule" Hofstra claims they were enforcing so makes me wonder if Hofstra didn't make the whole thing up as a ruse.
     
    FCC is investigating. FTC should look at this too since bundling and deceptive trade practices is illegal.

  34. Hofstra vs the First Amendment by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

    Because a presidential political debate is a public function from which reporters are expected to file stories as part of their editorial function, Hofstra has no business preventing people from using their own cellular communications and should be massively spanked for this action. Besides, it's a university, with a crapton of money rolling in from those huge tuitions, not a hotel trying to run a business - though the FCC has already ruled that convention hotels can't do this either..

    1. Re:Hofstra vs the First Amendment by RogerWilco · · Score: 1

      If a thousand people try to use their wireless devices at the same time, none are going to work, unless a lot of engineering has been put into designing things.
      Cell Phones might work if there are enough towers covering the area, but WiFi will not as it wasn't designed for that kind of thing.

      --
      RogerWilco the Adventurous Janitor
    2. Re:Hofstra vs the First Amendment by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

      Exactly! That's why the expensive house WiFi collapsed for those who ponied up the $200 gouge.

      All the more reason to let attendees use their own cell connections.

  35. Re: So They think they have a license for that ban by Dagmar+d'Surreal · · Score: 1

    What part of "you must use our wifi network or nothing" do you not understand to be "restricting" their use?

  36. Re: So They think they have a license for that ban by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That is not restriction/regulation of use. The specific is "you may not create a wireless access point here", perfectly acceptable and a common requirement in government departments, business and security locations throughout the US. e.g. we have the exact requirement where I work here, you may not enable any wireless access point and must use the provided wifi service. Done for security reasons.

  37. Re:So They think they have a license for that band by lgw · · Score: 1

    They were doing no such thing. They were flat out forbidding the use of the devices.

    That's what "licensing a spectrum" is! Only approved devices are allowed to use this (part of the) spectrum. It doesn't get any clearer than that. Want to use this part of the spectrum? Pay a $200 license fee.

    --
    Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
  38. Re:There's plenty of space by evilviper · · Score: 3, Informative

    I think it was a poor choice to raise a bunch of money by starting the sell spectrum to cell providers in the 90s instead of licensing it to them as had been done before

    Bandwidth auctions are only selling off a LEASE of that spectrum in the first place.

    so now a lot of power is concentrated into a few companies that own spectrum

    Auctioning is a good way to allocate limited resources. The significant expense highly discourages carriers from buying anything they won't extensively use (leaving it open for smaller organizations) and have also encouraged the FCC to open up more spectrum to get in on some more of that big cash.

    it's not necessarily in their interest to pursue certain RF research or new RF technology

    It's money from the cellular carriers that has been paying for developments of 3G and 4G technologies, and is continuing with a surprisingly fast push to work on 5G.

    And again, the huge expense of buying new spectrum in an auction is encouraging cellular carriers to "densify" their networks, instead of just expanding their bandwidth.

    Imagine if TV stations owned their spectrum, we might never have been able to force a HD digital transition.

    There's been no need for the government to force carriers to start shutting off their 2G networks and rolling out 4G. There's competition in the market, and tighter integration between sender and receiver. TV networks could never have hoped to force their audience to upgrade their all their TVs, but cell carriers can and regularly do.

    --
    Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
  39. Re:So They think they have a license for that band by MrDoh! · · Score: 1

    They should put a 10dollar a minute charge on breathing air too. And fine people who bring in their own oxygen tanks.

    --
    Waiting for an amusing sig.
  40. Re: So They think they have a license for that ban by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Here's a concept absolutists and libertarians have a hard time grasping. What people accept depends on the circumstances.

    Want to ban electronic devices in theaters? Fine. Screens interfere with other peoples' enjoyment so it's generally accepted. Ban voice calls on airlines? With connectivity existing now there is zero technical reason for this but people accept and even encourage it for other reasons (they use tech as an excuse, which pisses me off, but I understand their motivations for not wanting some self important blowhard yakking next to them for 3 hours)

    On the other hand, unreasonable bans are met with hostility and legal changes to your precious private property rights. In my state, overreaching employers lost the ability to stop employees from having legally owned guns in their cars on their precious private property for instance. Act like children, be treated like children. Ban stuff to make money or to act like a corporate weasel, expect pushback. Sometimes hard pushback.

    It's the same reason people accept crowd control measures and restrictions on where they can go, even technically illegal ones, when an actual emergency is going on near them. Yet they tend to get upset when it's for a made up reason like to stop a peaceful protest. In the real world a lot depends on circumstances.

  41. Re:So They think they have a license for that band by Opportunist · · Score: 1

    Me. In accordance with part 15, because my device obviously causes interference. And until it does, stfu.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  42. Re:So They think they have a license for that band by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That changes if you host a nationally televised debate with major political impact on the nation. And then try to tell the media they can't connect to the internet to report their information unless they pony up your $200 extortion fee. Your private residence and a public forum hosted on a privately owned campus are two very different things. You open your doors to the public your "private property" rights are significantly reduced. Yes you still have some, but comparing it to your house is not a valid comparison.

  43. Sign says "No Guns Allowed" or by mpercy · · Score: 1

    On their property, Hofstra certainly has a right to say "No WI-FI Hot Spots Permitted", just as they have a right to post "No Guns Permitted".

    If you do not wish to comply, move along or face trespassing charges.

  44. Trying running your own extension cord... by mpercy · · Score: 1

    Want to talk about profiteering? Try plugging in a projector in a meeting room or running an extension cord from the wall to your laptop.

    Watch the IBEW folks come running at you screaming!

  45. I hope Hofstra thought ahead. by sabbede · · Score: 1

    I don't know if it was legal or not, right or not, or whatever. I do know that at least one FCC commissioner is going to be at each debate, each convention, and any major party or inter-party event; so it really pays to make sure all your i's are dotted and t's are crossed.

  46. HU has an open guest wifi network by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Judging from one of the University's tech support pages, HU has an open, free, guest wifi network available to anyone without registration. Why wasn't this network made available to the journalists without a $200 charge?

    Further text quoted below is from this link: http://www.hofstra.edu/about/it/itscs/itscs_wireless.html

    HU GUEST

    The 'HU GUEST' network is available to university guests and can be used by Hofstra students and employees to connect wireless devices that are not capable of connecting to 'eduroam' (i.e. devices that don't support WPA2-Enterprise encryption).

    Hofstra students and employees can connect their wireless devices, which are not capable of WPA2-Enterprise encryption, to 'HU GUEST'. Game consoles, mobile gaming devices, Apple TVs, Rokus, older Kindles and Nooks can all be used on the 'HU GUEST' network with no registration required. If you have a wireless device that will not connect to 'eduroam' or 'HU GUEST' please contact support using the contact information in the upper right corner of this page.

    University Guests: Any device with web browsing capabilities can be connected to 'HU GUEST'.

  47. Why don't idiots STFU by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just a few dozen in the same area is enough to completely use all available bandwidth in the form of beacons.

    BULLSHIT

  48. They were not licensing spectrum. by Aqualung812 · · Score: 1

    They were prohibiting the use of a type of device. I see nothing about bans of Bluetooth or ZigBee using the 2.4 GHz range.

    I've also seen no reports of sending de-auth packets, which is exactly what the FCC can enforce.

    An institution saying "If you shout during the debate from the audience, we will escort you out" is not a ban on free speech.
    Likewise, saying "If you bring your own access point, you we will escort you out" isn't licensing the 2.4 GHz spectrum.

    --
    Grammer Nazis - I mod you "troll" unless you actually add something on-topic. Yes, I know I have mispellings in my sig.
  49. Excuses, pronto by bestweasel · · Score: 1

    Now we got the FCC and the press making a fuss. Quick, think up some reasons why we have to charge $200 for WiFi.

  50. Re:There's plenty of space by rickb928 · · Score: 1

    If you're hosting an event such as this, you should anticipate and plan for the needs.

    Go to a sporting event, like an NFL game, and see how 60,000+ fans tax your RF environment. You solve the problem.

    Hofstra could have handled this better, or the Debate Commission could have. The method they chose is subject to some criticism, isn't it?

    --
    deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
  51. Re:There's plenty of space by bobbied · · Score: 1

    Hofstra could have handled this better, or the Debate Commission could have. The method they chose is subject to some criticism, isn't it?

    I think not. What they did was reasonable and it wasn't like all the reporters didn't know what the deal was. Not to mention Hofstra was only following the contracted agreements they had with the Presidential Debate commission....

    My guess is somebody got a bee in their bonnet about something and thought they'd get their 5 min of fame out of it. After all, it was pretty likely all the reporters who had to pay the $200 where a bit miffed at the cost, not knowing how much this kind of thing actually costs to set up, and would love to be in the news themselves by reporting on this. Journalistic standards have sunk that low... If you cannot find a story, just make one.

    --
    "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
  52. Re:So They think they have a license for that band by MooseTick · · Score: 1

    "The university has no role whatsoever or anybody else with private property."

    The same argument could be made that places can't ban smoking because the cigarettes are someone's private property.

  53. If the Commission on Presidential Debates made by John.Banister · · Score: 1

    this requirement, then it sounds like the reporters should pass the bill on to the Commission. The members of this commission are the same fine individuals who always decide for us that we shouldn't hear the voices of any third party candidates. So, now I learn that they don't want me to hear live data that doesn't pass through their own network. I wonder what they'll decide I shouldn't hear next.

  54. This is a technical no-brainer. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I build large wifi networks for resorts. They only work if you dont have a bunch of rogue access points blanketing the area with noise. I wont bother building one if there is no commitment to eliminate un-official AP's because the customer whines about slow inet or deadzones.

    this is no different, you cant have a hundred personal hotspots fire up and expect the wireless network there to function. tho i dissagree with the cost... thats an obscene amount. 10 bucks tops, bandwidth limited of course.

  55. Not surprising by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I've dealt with the inept folks of SmartCity many times, and can say with 80% certainty that this was simply a money grab. "don't use your personal hotspot which is free, use our service that we are charging for."

  56. Re:So They think they have a license for that band by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No. You are inventing new definitions to suit your views.

    They are not licensing your use of the spectrum, they are restricting your use of your device while on their property.

  57. Re:So They think they have a license for that band by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The FCC doesn't give them that right.

  58. Re:There's plenty of space by lister+king+of+smeg · · Score: 1

    If you're hosting an event such as this, you should anticipate and plan for the needs.

    Go to a sporting event, like an NFL game, and see how 60,000+ fans tax your RF environment. You solve the problem.

    Hofstra could have handled this better, or the Debate Commission could have. The method they chose is subject to some criticism, isn't it?

    Funny you mention WiFi at sporting events last month I went to a baseball game in Seattle with my father and the Free stadium WiFi was faster than the internet speed I get at home.

    --
    ---Saying gnome 3 is better than windows 8 not so much a compliment as it is damning with light praise.
  59. Re:So They think they have a license for that band by Agripa · · Score: 1

    INCORRECT. They are not putting a restriction on the devices operation, they are forbidding you from using the device. A restriction would be sub-licensing and not allowed. Not allowing their use at all is actually fine.

    Really?

    http://www.govtech.com/policy-...
    https://www.cnet.com/news/fcc-...

  60. Anybody remember the Port Authority? by Agripa · · Score: 1

    The WiFi bands are unlicensed and users *must* accept interference from other users. The FCC already went through this with the Port Authority when they tried to ban their tenets from offering WiFi services.

    http://www.govtech.com/policy-...
    https://www.cnet.com/news/fcc-...

  61. Ah - the excuse of the ignorant American abroad! by Bruce66423 · · Score: 1

    I didn't vote for these laws, so I don't have to abide by them... So does that mean that the residents of New Jersey don't have to obey the laws of New York when they visit the Big Apple? For the record, the Supreme Court rejected the claim of a non-citizen of the USA about not paying taxes quite early in the days of the Republic. Funny that...

    The colonists in America were there by agreement with the sovereign power - Britain - and so should have obeyed its laws. The refusal to do so had disastrous consequences for African Americans, who were probably enslaved for an extra 30 years, given that slavery was abolished in the British Empire in the 1830s. And then of course the Germans had to be defeated TWICE because the Americans were free to play at isolationism until the consequences of their doing so finally got through to them.

    Isn't thinking things through fun?

  62. Wihch country? by RockDoctor · · Score: 1
    Didn't bother going on once I realised that the submitter (and/or editor) didn't even bother to tell readers which country this took place in, and therefore whose laws applied.

    Probably America ; probably someone else's problem.

    --
    Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
  63. Re:Ah - the excuse of the ignorant American abroad by sabbede · · Score: 1
    The Constitution's "Full faith and credit" clause, Federal Supremacy, and a "law of the land" legal tradition is how the "New Yorker in New Jersey" issue is handled. There's also the matter of the Social Contract, binding everyone to the outcome of a vote. Britain broke the contract, rescinding rights already possessed and imposing laws from afar, cutting the colonists out of the decision making process.

    Keep in mind, the colonists were British citizens, and had all the rights that entails. When Britain ceased treating them as citizens, well, the Declaration of Independance covers the response, it's legal and philosophical justification, and lists the grievances that motivated it.

  64. Re:Ah - the excuse of the ignorant American abroad by Bruce66423 · · Score: 1

    'The Constitution's "Full faith and credit" clause, Federal Supremacy, and a "law of the land" legal tradition is how the "New Yorker in New Jersey" issue is handled.'

    Very cute; so because it is now catered for under current legal doctrine, the clear issue is put to bed. Whereas the clear legal doctrine of the day - that the Crown in Parliament was the supreme ruler of the territories of the Crown - is not acceptable. Funny that.

    "There's also the matter of the Social Contract, binding everyone to the outcome of a vote. Britain broke the contract, rescinding rights already possessed and imposing laws from afar, cutting the colonists out of the decision making process."

    At the time Britain made no particular claims to be 'democratic' with 'rights'. The 'rights' were only ever what the law defined by the Crown in Parliament granted - or took away. What you are appealing to - the 'Social Contract' theory - was a new, self serving belief that suited the rebels of the day, along with their support for chattel slavery. It may well be progress that Lockean Social Contract theory has become more popular and chattel slavery less, but BOTH are disputable political / moral theorems.

    "Keep in mind, the colonists were British citizens, and had all the rights that entails."

    Hmm - dubious. Given the undemocratic nature of the Parliamentary electorate of the time, their rights were quite circumscribed.

    ' When Britain ceased treating them as citizens, well, the Declaration of Independance covers the response, it's legal and philosophical justification, and lists the grievances that motivated it.'

    It offers a figleaf of self justification based on a conveniently self serving modern political philosophy. Marxism is equally a modern political philosophy; most of us wouldn't want to live under an implementation of that, especially one of the Leninist school.

    I note you ducked: 'For the record, the Supreme Court rejected the claim of a non-citizen of the USA about not paying taxes quite early in the days of the Republic. Funny that...' as well as my little rant about the consequences of the American rebellion. The most important lesson from history is that we all have skeletons in our cupboards, and there are very few unambiguously positive events in history. Failure to recognise this is a form of idolatry, and like all idolatry, will lead you away from the truth.

  65. Re:Ah - the excuse of the ignorant American abroad by sabbede · · Score: 1
    I didn't duck it, my time is limited and I didn't think it particularly important at the time to go over an example of working out legal details.

    As my time is still limited, I'm going to start by saying that yes, they were not just breaking the law, they were committing high treason and knew all too well the consequences for them and their families when they signed the Declaration. The conditions under which the Crown was placing the Colonies had become intolerable, amounting to tyranny. They presented a long list of unredressed grievances and explained how they amounted to a violation of the very purpose of government, thereby invalidating its power over them.

    So yes, they broke the law in grandiose fashion. They explained exactly why they were breaking it and that as the law was unjust it was inherently invalid and had to be broken.

    And please do keep in mind that the Enlightenment perspective towards government that underpinned the Declaration also held sway in Britain. Also, the Social Contract was Rousseau's, not Locke's. It was also a criticism of Hobbes' and Locke's view of social development. .

  66. Intolerable? by Bruce66423 · · Score: 1

    The conditions of African Americans in some of the slums of the modern USA are intolerable. But to describe the rule of the British in the 1770s as intolerable is just silly.

    1. Re:Intolerable? by sabbede · · Score: 1

      Sure, everything was so great that the Colonists were calling British moves "The Intolerable Acts" ironically.