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Implication of Sabotage Adds Intrigue To SpaceX Investigation (washingtonpost.com)

An anonymous reader quotes a report from The Washington Post: The long-running feud between Elon Musk's space company and its fierce competitor United Launch Alliance took a bizarre twist this month when a SpaceX employee visited its facilities at Cape Canaveral, Fla., and asked for access to the roof of one of ULA's buildings. About two weeks earlier, one of SpaceX's rockets blew up on a launchpad while it was awaiting an engine test. As part of the investigation, SpaceX officials had come across something suspicious they wanted to check out, according to three industry officials with knowledge of the episode. SpaceX had still images from video that appeared to show an odd shadow, then a white spot on the roof of a nearby building belonging to ULA, a joint venture between Lockheed Martin and Boeing. The SpaceX representative explained to the ULA officials on site that it was trying to run down all possible leads in what was a cordial, not accusatory, encounter, according to the industry sources, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because of the ongoing investigation. The building, which had been used to refurbish rocket motors known as the SMARF, is just more than a mile away from the launchpad and has a clear line of sight to it. A representative from ULA ultimately denied the SpaceX employee access to the roof and instead called Air Force investigators, who inspected the roof and didn't find anything connecting it to the rocket explosion, the officials said. This week, ten members of Congress sent a four-page letter to several government agencies about the SpaceX explosion, raising the question as to whether or not SpaceX should be leading the investigation. Elon Musk said the investigation into what went wrong is the company's "absolute top priority." He added, "We've eliminated all of the obvious possibilities for what occurred there. So what remains are the less probable answers." SpaceX aims to resume flights in November.

26 of 182 comments (clear)

  1. Insightful by alphatel · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Elon Musk said "We've eliminated all of the obvious possibilities for what occurred there. So what remains are the less probable answers."

    Solving a rocket failure is a complex task, on the order of magnitude of building a rocket from scratch.
    Generating theories that pseudo-government entities utilize sabotage devices from a mile away seems a bit John Nash.

    --
    When the foot seeks the place of the head, the line is crossed. Know your place. Keep your place. Be a shoe.
    1. Re: Insightful by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      We call those mysterious devices "guns", "rockets", and "drones". And if you think that a company wouldn't stoop to shooting a sniper rifle at a competitor's product when there are billions of dollars at stake, you are completely out of touch with reality.

    2. Re: Insightful by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You mean like ADAM and ATHENA, from a company called "Lockheed Martin"?

    3. Re:Insightful by TVmisGuided · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." -- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, "The Adventure of the Blanched Soldier"

      I'm just sayin'.

      --
      All the world's an analog stage, and digital circuits play only bit parts.
    4. Re:Insightful by Khyber · · Score: 2

      "Generating theories that pseudo-government entities utilize sabotage devices from a mile away seems a bit John Nash"

      Are you that blind to the technological capabilities of the world in this day and age? At a distance of a mile, a gun can easily reach target within seconds, or a 10+kW laser is more than enough to effectively fuck something up with a clear LOS.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    5. Re:Insightful by ravenshrike · · Score: 2

      Wouldn't even have to be that powerful. So long as it can create a spot of differential temperature high enough to destabilize the contents of the rocket it would work.

    6. Re: Insightful by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 2

      Though William of Ockham would have used a sniper rifle, that would have left physical evidence that a laser would not.

    7. Re:Insightful by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That assumes humans are infallible and will not misclassify the possible as impossible.

    8. Re: Insightful by tnk1 · · Score: 2

      True. It's amazing what you can put together after even an explosion. One charred and warped, but mostly intact panel with a hole consistent with a .50 cal anti-materiel round would be pretty conclusive.

      Of course, if you know how rockets are generally constructed, you might be able to put a round somewhere that isn't as easy to conclusively prove was from a rifle.

      Still, given all the things you have to do just right to enable space flight with rockets, I'm still going to regard this as pretty unlikely. The fact is that somebody inside that conglomerate would have to have hired a professional and had a pretty detailed program to make something like this happen. You're not just going to put a sniper on the roof and tell him to take potshots at it. That sniper will need to have been given a briefing with specific places he needs to hit with one shot to havethat effect. And he'll probably need to practice it. All of that takes time, money, and most importantly, other people committed to a secret that they all know would be very, very illegal. Such people exist, certainly, but are those people going to be involved in something as petty as this? No idea.

    9. Re:Insightful by Jeremi · · Score: 3, Funny

      "I, however, do not like to eliminate the impossible." -- Dirk Gently, Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency

      --


      I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
    10. Re:Insightful by david_thornley · · Score: 2

      No, the act was to prohibit redlining, meaning that there would have to be fair criteria. The act did not require banks to loosen their criteria. They didn't have to make ninja loans. If the Federal government was pressuring banks to make bad mortgages in the seven years before 2008, that really wasn't Clinton's fault.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  2. What implication? by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 2

    Rather than as an implication, it seems to be more about covering all their bases.

    --
    Ezekiel 23:20
    1. Re:What implication? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      They're not going to let us know the real cause, because of the "implication."

      It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia - The "Implication"

  3. So basically nothing's ever Musk's fault. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Tesla crashes are always the user's fault, SpaceX explosions are sabotage...

    Why ever worry about QC if you can blame all your failures on someone else?

  4. Grassy knoll? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    The link to the SpaceX "evidence" is an alien conspiracy video. Anyway, I'm guessing SpaceX is implying ULA had a shooter on the building? A .50 anti-material rifle like a Barrett or a Tac-50 with a single HEIAP round could do the trick easily, space rockets are fragile little toys. Timed right it would look like a failure or the rocket and the chances of anyone finding any indication of what really happened after the resulting explosion would be pretty damn slim. Only things I could think of would be punctures opposite the force of the explosion and shell fragments (good luck finding those). Any residue from the shell would most likely be burned off (if you could find it to begin with).

    But I don't think anyone with enough knowledge of rockets would be that stupid. If you didn't get it to explode immediately there's a good chance the damage would cause the rocket to veer off course. The range safety officer would initiate self-destruct or the rocket would finally explode at that point but either way you're putting other people and equipment at risk.

    What is interesting is that SpaceX uses Pad 40 and ULA uses Pad 41 so taking out Pad 40 would not affect Pad 41 (insert ominous sound effect here).

    Personally I'm now convinced it was aliens *cough*.

    1. Re: Grassy knoll? by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 4, Informative

      It turned out that the pad systems actually aren't independent so there were some potential issues (ultimately prevented only with a great deal of effort). Regarding the tanks, I believe they're an aluminum-lithium alloy, so I'm not sure a piece of it with a bullet hole would be even guaranteed to survive.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    2. Re:Grassy knoll? by MTEK · · Score: 3, Interesting

      When Musk tweeted earlier, "particularly trying to understand the quieter bang sound a few seconds before the fireball goes off", I was kinda hoping he wasn't implying something.

    3. Re:Grassy knoll? by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 3, Interesting

      When Musk tweeted earlier, "particularly trying to understand the quieter bang sound a few seconds before the fireball goes off", I was kinda hoping he wasn't implying something.

      I doubt it. Immediately before the disassembly, there was a screeching noise, and then another noise. Whatever it was, it didn't sound like any firearm.

      Commentary such as is is just people trying to put what pieces they can find together after the event. I'd like to understand those sounds as well. For the life of me, I can't imagine a competitor a-sniping.

      Spacex has been having some issues with that second stage. This isn't surprising that issues come up. When dealing with candles, there is a big learning curve, and if anyone doubts it, NASA and before them NACA, had rapid disassembly events on the launchpad - a lot of them. They are all on Youtube for people to see.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
  5. And I was modded down... by Ecuador · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The direction of their investigation was obvious from their previous release where they were talking about the breach in the helium system. They had a "large breach" that could not be explained, so what else fits the description better than a projectile? I was actually modded down for pointing that out (people saying you can't get within 8 miles of the launch etc), but, yeah, that's what they are looking at (among other things I assume). It is not that far-fetched I guess, I mean there are billions at stake here. And if you think about it, if you wanted to sabotage a rocket fueling would be the perfect time - low security compared to a launch (not to mention no bullet-time cameras etc rolling) and yet some activity that could be thought to be related to the cause.
    I'm not saying it was certainly sabotage, but, regardless of what Giorgio Tsoukalos might tell you, it is much more probable than aliens ;)

    --
    Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. Polar Scope Align for iOS
    1. Re:And I was modded down... by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 2

      No they were not. The engines were not fired. It happened during fueling.

      You are correct, the engines were not running. This happened before the static test. My confusion was based on it being part of the test. My bad for certain.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    2. Re:And I was modded down... by taiwanjohn · · Score: 2

      I'd bet that from now on SpaceX will have a Hi-Def camera mounted on every lightning tower, recording 24/7, whenever there is a rocket on the pad. Also, if possible, they might add a few more sensors to the upper stage if they can spare enough telemetry channels for the data.

      I suspect they'll also voluntarily eat the cost of running the static-fire tests before integrating the payload for the next year or so, just to avoid higher insurance fees for their customers. (How long before they start offering vertical integration as a 'menu option' service?)

      --
      XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve your problem, you're not using enough of it. --AC
  6. I wouldn't put it past them by ooloorie · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Lockheed Martin and Boeing

    Given the amount of money at stake, I wouldn't put it past them to engage in a little bit of industrial sabotage.

  7. Re:James Bond Did It... by murdocj · · Score: 2

    I could picture Musk stroking a white cat in his underground lair.

  8. the congressmen.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The Congressmen in question here aren't exactly unbiased towards SpaceX, you'll note that they are all from places where ULA has major operations: Florida, Alabama, Colorado, Texas.

    Now I wonder why would those folks have any interest in seeing SpaceX fail..hrmm.

  9. Imagine by burtosis · · Score: 4, Funny

    If it was actually a meteorite impact. Now that would be funny.

  10. Re:What's with the video? by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Not only does the video link not match the description,

    "video that appeared to show an odd shadow, then a white spot on the roof of a nearby building"

    it's tantamount to a propaganda video of exactly the sort I'd pay for if I wanted to ridicule anyone conducting an actual investigation into my industrial sabotage. How the fuck did this get past Slashdot editors?

    Amazing your post has been modded as flamebait. Really amazing that Slashdot is playing to the Alex Jones crowd.

    The video, which I have watched dozens of times, doesn't show anything weird at all. One of the "UFOs" was a seagull, another probably a bug. There is a fellow who does Youtube videos who calls himself "thunderfoot" - yes - that thunderfoot, the anti-modern day feminist, but he puts together a pretty good analysis.

    While not conclusive, he pretty much debunks this conspiracy theory of launchpad sabotage.

    As well, anyone wanting to sabotage the second stage would find the easiest path would be during buildup of the second stage.

    The breach almost certainly started at the interface between the second stage fuel and Oxidant tanks, which share a shell. Where in that area remains in question, but that's where it starts. There is an odd screech a second or so before the rapid disassembly that may or may not be connected to the event. The camera was some miles away, so a lot of things in between might make noise.

    note: that screech, if related, sounds like what happens when an extremely cold substance comes in contact with warmer metal. You can duplicate this by putting a penny on a piece of dry ice. The penny will make wierd noises.

    But don't the conspiracy folks have better things to do, like proving the moon mission was faked, or that Ted Cruz's father put the hit on John Kennedy, or that 9-11 was an inside job, or that electrical companies put the kibosh on perpetual motion?

    --
    The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.