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Scientific Breakthrough Increases Plant Yields By One Third (wsu.edu)

Slashdot reader schwit1 writes, "Plant scientists have found a way to encourage plants to better use atmospheric nitrogen, thus increasing yields by more than one third. The technique not only produces healthier plants and more seeds, it reduces the need for fertilizer, the overuse of which can be an environmental issue." From WSU News: For years, scientists have tried to increase the rate of nitrogen [conversion] in legumes by altering...interactions that take place between the bacterioid and the root nodule cells. [Washington State University biologist Mechthild] Tegeder took a different approach: She increased the number of proteins that help move nitrogen from the rhizobia bacteria to the plant's leaves, seed-producing organs and other areas where it is needed. The additional transport proteins sped up the overall export of nitrogen from the root nodules.

This initiated a feedback loop that caused the rhizobia to start fixing more atmospheric nitrogen, which the plant then used to produce more seeds. "They are bigger, grow faster and generally look better than natural soybean plants," Tegeder said.

197 comments

  1. I for one welcome ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    ... our new legume overlords.

    1. Re:I for one welcome ... by Are+You+Kidding · · Score: 1

      This research was supported by the National Science Foundation and the US Department of Agriculture-- i.e. our tax dollars. So why do I have to pay EvilElsevier to read the paper I paid for?

    2. Re:I for one welcome ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because the government didn't publish the paper.

    3. Re:I for one welcome ... by BlueStrat · · Score: 1

      ... our new legume overlords.

      I'll just leave this here.

      https://youtu.be/wEUwtFg7PeI

      --
      Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
    4. Re:I for one welcome ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because the National Science Foundation and the US Department of Agriculture paid for the research, not the indefinite hosting of said research results in a readily and conveniently consumable version for ever and ever.

      Be honest: would you even have a hope in hell of understanding the paper if I dropped a free copy in your lap? If you DID have the training and background to understand the paper, it's likely you work for an institute that already has access to it without forcing you to pay out of your own pocket. If you DON'T have the training and background to understand the paper, then your download of the paper simply because "I paid for it, dad gummit!" simply drives up the costs of hosting and distributing it.

    5. Re:I for one welcome ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A great many people don't understand the US Constitution and that's freely available.

    6. Re:I for one welcome ... by dhammabum · · Score: 2

      So, Elsevier has an astroturf program?

      --
      I am not a robot. I am a unicorn.
    7. Re:I for one welcome ... by peawormsworth · · Score: 1

      What a load of junk.

      Poor people are just as intelligent as rich people.

      It costs less to put information online for free than it does to configure it behind a pay wall.

      You sound like someone who went through an expensive education system and now you are provided with special benefits in life. And that you would contrive any reasoning to justify why it should continue to be this way.

    8. Re: I for one welcome ... by lsatenstein · · Score: 1

      Yes. I have the ability to read and think and analyse.

      --
      Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
    9. Re: I for one welcome ... by lsatenstein · · Score: 1

      I was sarcastic.

      --
      Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
    10. Re:I for one welcome ... by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      Poor people are just as intelligent as rich people.

      https://brainsize.wordpress.com/2014/05/18/iq-and-income/
      https://pumpkinperson.com/2014/11/09/hypocrites-who-deny-linear-iq-income-correlation/

      Intelligence tends quite well to go along with income. There as also a weaker but positive agreement between wealth and intelligence.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    11. Re: I for one welcome ... by GaryHayman · · Score: 1

      Have you tried a university library? They have crazy numbers of back issues of nearly every journal.

    12. Re: I for one welcome ... by gzuckier · · Score: 1

      Why do you think they call us human beans?

      --
      Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
    13. Re:I for one welcome ... by mattack2 · · Score: 1

      It costs less to put information online for free than it does to configure it behind a pay wall.

      Sure, as a raw index.html file.. But what about a decent search algorithm, a decent index of issues/stories, etc.? Who pays for that?

      (BTW, I don't know if the site behind this particular "pay wall" does have those.. But they're some reasons why it might be even preferable from the end user's standpoint... I say that even though I ALSO think that since my tax money apparently paid for it, it should be freely available.)

  2. Attack Of The Killer Soy Beans? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So, are we going to be overrun by soy bean plants whose growth is now stuck in a feedback loop?

    1. Re:Attack Of The Killer Soy Beans? by fyngyrz · · Score: 4, Funny

      And what happens when the nitrogen levels in the atmosphere are depleted by these Genetic Horrors???

      The holy balance of 78.09% nitrogen, 20.95% oxygen, 0.93% argon, 0.04% carbon dioxide will be disturbed, increasing our oxygen intake, and BURNING OUT OUR CELLS AS OXIDATION RATES INCREASE!!!

      OMG where's my tin-foil-hat-equipped-with-supplemental-nitrogen-tank???

      \_(oo)_/

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    2. Re:Attack Of The Killer Soy Beans? by ColdWetDog · · Score: 0

      First they made the Habor-Bosh process and I did not speak out.
              Because I liked dynamite.
      Then came the Green Revolution and I did not speak out.
            Because I liked tofu.
      Then came our nitrogen fixing overlords and I did not speak out.
            Because I really like tofu.
      And then they came for me.
          After seeing a pirated copy of Little Shop of Horrors.

      Careful what you ask for.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    3. Re:Attack Of The Killer Soy Beans? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most likely some insect or herbivore will come along and liberate all that excess trapped nitrogen, etc from said plants.
      If nature basically had a means to increase plant growth rate by 1/3, then there must have been something else in nature which made it more efficient in the long run NOT to take advantage of it.

      Nerds like to think they can beat evolution, but as always, their real Achilles heel is a poor understanding of probability and complexity. And evolution LOVES both.
      Kind of funny that some spend so long trying to explain evolution to creationists, then fail to grasp it's basic implications elsewhere.

    4. Re:Attack Of The Killer Soy Beans? by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Evolution 'seeks' local maximums. It isn't necessarily the optimum solution.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    5. Re:Attack Of The Killer Soy Beans? by khallow · · Score: 1

      If nature basically had a means to increase plant growth rate by 1/3, then there must have been something else in nature which made it more efficient in the long run NOT to take advantage of it.

      What's in it for the bacteria to fix that much extra nitrogen?

    6. Re:Attack Of The Killer Soy Beans? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Genetic Horrors quickly evolve structures for extracting nitrogen out of other organisms, starting with the Holy Creator of the first plant. You'll need a nitrogen pellet gun with your tin-foil-hat-equipped-with-supplemental-nitrogen-tank to shoot snacks and distract the plants so you can make it to your sanctuary, made of seed tight plastic and flame throwers, topped with a Roundup(r) sniper position.

    7. Re:Attack Of The Killer Soy Beans? by Rei · · Score: 1

      Not to mention that what is a "maximum" depends greatly on context. For example: if some animal species' primary challenge in life is to be able to bend down tree branches to get at their fruit, then its "maximum" may be to become heavy and muscular; but in a context where harvests are unpredictable and the species needs to survive long periods of shortage, then its "maximum" may be to have much less muscle mass, and thus energy consumption, to survive until the periods of abundance.

      As I wrote below, I can think of a specific example where I live where nitrogen production by legumes ends up harming the species in the long run by boosting their competitors. The contexts of "growing wild in nature" and "growing in a farmer's field" are very different.

      --
      The internet is not a series of tubes. It's more like a net. Or a network of computers. Or an internet.
    8. Re:Attack Of The Killer Soy Beans? by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 1

      You don't even need to get that far. The scientist compared them to "natural" plants, saying they grow better. That means they aren't natural, so the food religion will shun them just like GMO.

    9. Re:Attack Of The Killer Soy Beans? by Rei · · Score: 5, Informative

      The plants basically breed them.

      It's important to note that root nodules operate as a very close symbiosis - not exactly to the extent of our mitochondria in our cells, but it's more than just "bacteria that happen to be living next to the plant". The plant roots grow a carefully structured channel specifically to allow bacteria to "infect" them. The bacteria and plants work together on this - the plants produce flavinoids to let the bacteria know that they're there, and the bacteria in turn respond to flavinoids by producing nod factors, which lets the plant know that the bacteria are present and that it needs to work to encapsulate them. When an "infection" is established inside the root, the plant closes off the channel, not only trapping the bacteria, but also protecting them. The plants then nurture the bacteria, providing them nitrogen, oxygen, nutrients, and even proteins that assist in the fixation process. When the plant dies, the extensive cultures of bacteria are released and become free to colonize other plant roots

      If you were asking why bacteria evolved the need to fix nitrogen in general... that's easy. Nitrogen is one of the essential components in life; they had to. It's needed for protein, DNA, RNA, etc; life as we know it can't exist without it.

      --
      The internet is not a series of tubes. It's more like a net. Or a network of computers. Or an internet.
    10. Re:Attack Of The Killer Soy Beans? by evilviper · · Score: 1

      And what happens when the nitrogen levels in the atmosphere are depleted by these Genetic Horrors???

      Don't worry... Volkswagen was planning ahead for just such a contingency! God bless those TDI engineers.

      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    11. Re:Attack Of The Killer Soy Beans? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We will replace the missing nitrogen with helium. Can you imagine the advances this will bring to arts like opera and to the music industry?

    12. Re:Attack Of The Killer Soy Beans? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What's in it for the bacteria to fix that much extra nitrogen?

      Extra carbon. The plants fix C02, the bacteria fix N2. The exchange is sugars for ammonia - perfect symbiosis. For plants the most often encountered limitation is lack of nitrogen in a form they can use (nitrates or ammonia). They can not process N2. That's why there was an explosion in agriculture after we developed the chemical process to make nitrogen fertilizer. Before that we had to dump piles of shit on the fields (we still do that but it is not enough).

    13. Re:Attack Of The Killer Soy Beans? by AJWM · · Score: 1

      That's how it starts.

      The next thing you know, civilization has collapsed and there are triffids prowling the countryside looking for walking nitrogen/nutrient bundles (aka humans).

      --
      -- Alastair
    14. Re: Attack Of The Killer Soy Beans? by Rei · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The "Monsanto sued a farmer for accidental cross pollenation case" is a myth.

      --
      The internet is not a series of tubes. It's more like a net. Or a network of computers. Or an internet.
    15. Re:Attack Of The Killer Soy Beans? by the_povinator · · Score: 1
      I am a little skeptical that this will pan out in practice.

      She is just increasing the levels of naturally existing proteins, and there is nothing to stop that happening in the normal course of evolution (it's not the same as developing a protein with a totally new function, which isn't as easy to evolve). If this were beneficial for soybean plants in nature, they would already have evolved these higher levels of transport proteins. So there must be a downside. For example, it might starve the roots of nitrogen and slow their growth, hurting the soybeans in drier soil or when other nutrients are limiting factors.

      --
      The .sig is dead, and I believe I had a hand in killing it.
    16. Re:Attack Of The Killer Soy Beans? by Immerman · · Score: 3, Interesting

      They are GMOs - the abstract specifically mentions that the plants are transgenic. How big a problem that is though depends on what exactly they did. I mean it's already almost impossible to get your hands on non-GMO soybeans in the US, and this modification manages to simultaneously boost yields, reduce fertilizer demands, and potentially improve long-term soil health. Exactly the sort of GMOs I'm actually (tentatively) in favor of.

      Since it's transgenic I'm guessing they now produce additional kinds of nitrogen-transport proteins rather than just boosting the levels of the proteins they already use, which does increase the potential for health problems to emerge in those who eat them, unless they're something already found in other food crops. Even if not though, they're far less likely to cause problems than transgenic "pest-resistance" genes, which as a rule specifically code for the plant to produce anti-pest toxins. Even if those poisons aren't an obvious short-term problem for mammals, thy may present longer-term risks - after all an awful lot of our cellular biology is still shared with insects and the like.

      Personally, I'd have a lot fewer problems with GMOs if we made two modifications to the law:
      1) eliminate gene patents, and with them a host of the perverse incentives currently infesting the industry.
      2) require all new compounds produced in modified organisms to undergo extensive independent safety testing at least on par with what the FDA (supposedly) requires for new drugs.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    17. Re:Attack Of The Killer Soy Beans? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If this were beneficial for soybean plants in nature, they would already have evolved these higher levels of transport proteins.

      What a stupid comment. Do you really think that evolution is ever "done"? If it were beneficial for soybean plants in nature, it may NOT have already evolved simply because it may be an area of their genome that is highly conserved due to the presence of other critical genes nearby, or it may be that the soybean genome is "good enough" such that being able to fix excess atmospheric nitrogen has little to no value to the soybean plant itself. Or, it may be dumb luck that this particular mutation hasn't occurred in a plant that survived for long in the wild for other reasons. Larger, more productive plants is a big deal for humans who eat the plant, but it may not be a particularly exciting or beneficial trait for the plant themselves in a state of nature.

      By your argument -
      If evolving cancer immunity were beneficial for humans, we'd have already evolved that immunity. I guess cancer is just fine, though.
      If evolving wings were beneficial for humans, we'd have already evolved feathery fucking plumage. I guess we can walk, though.

      Evolution is not a straight line, you dimwit. It is a random process of mutation, with the results of those random mutations being culled at higher or lower rates from the population based on the mutation's efficacy in helping the organism survive in its current environment.

    18. Re:Attack Of The Killer Soy Beans? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Natural ecosystems actually tend to retain higher levels of nitrogen than managed systems, but nonetheless in the nitrogen cycle the vast majority of nitrogen is in the atmospheric system, and only minuscule parts interact with the land and water systems of the world.

    19. Re:Attack Of The Killer Soy Beans? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm guessing you get more oxygen since the plant will fix more carbon.

    20. Re: Attack Of The Killer Soy Beans? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nonetheless the way theses sorts of patents infringe on property rights and the traditional practices of agriculture is cause of concern. Additionally the very idea of a patent on a living thing or gene is controversial even among those who are experts in and supports of patents as traditionally granted. Such patents give a few companies a huge influence and control over the global food chain, that could very well spell disaster should yet unforeseen events disrupt agriculture. The loss of diversity and locality, while increasing total yield has decreased the resilience of food systems at both the local and global scale.

    21. Re:Attack Of The Killer Soy Beans? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's be a lot fewer transgene crops if you did that. You're decreasing the potential rents, while increasing the costs to bring the research to market.

      The thing the keep in mind with pathogen and insect resistance traits is that you aren't choosing between them and nothing, but between them and applied insecticides, which often have much greater environmental contamination issues. Additionally insect damage can open crops up to fungal mycotoxins, which are the source of health concerns in quite small concentrations. The development if resistance is a known problem, which can be slowed and managed though multiple modes of action, refuge acres, and weather forecasting and population monitoring to tell weather or not use of a trait is needed.

      The problem with an FDA style regulatory scheme is that it is far to conservative, and generates a lot of type II errors, prohibiting something where the net benefit is still positive, because they are hard to detect and the type I error of failing to prohibit something that is a net negative is very easy to see. Such bureaucracies are far too risk-averse.

      I'll agree with ending gene patents and even shortening patents in general. You'll make up a lot of the research difference with public or cooperative institutions as the expense of improvements spreading through the industry more slowly. Probably well worth the trade-off of reducing corporate rents and influence.

      At the end of the day it's the cost, profit, and trade off( not neccessarily monetary) that you should be attention to, the rest is just variables.

    22. Re:Attack Of The Killer Soy Beans? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, are we going to be overrun by soy bean plants whose growth is now stuck in a feedback loop?

      In a year or two, you'll be able to say:

      Some studies say we going to be overrun by soy bean plants whose growth is now stuck in a feedback loop!

    23. Re:Attack Of The Killer Soy Beans? by ipb · · Score: 1

      The obligatory reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

    24. Re:Attack Of The Killer Soy Beans? by denzacar · · Score: 2

      We shoot Matthew McConaughey into space and that fixes everything.
      Also, we get space colonies and anti-gravity plus Anne Hathaway and Jessica Chastain are involved in the whole thing as well.
      Oh, and Matt Damon gets shot out into space out of an airlock.

      It's win-win-win-win-win... win-win all the way.

      --
      Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
    25. Re:Attack Of The Killer Soy Beans? by Immerman · · Score: 1

      Yes, there would be fewer coming to market, and that would probably be a good thing - we're playing with a science potentially far more dangerous than atomic bombs, mainly because it can so easily entirely escape our control, and we're still scarcely in the finger-painting stage of actually understanding what exactly we're tinkering with.

      Those that did get released though, would likely have faced far more unbiased scrutiny, as well as being primarily developed for more altruistic purposes as rent-seeking would be far more difficult, and hopefully correspondingly more broad-mindedness about the potential long-term ecological and sociological repercussions. And what rent-seeking there would still be would tend to lean such crops to carrying Monsanto-style "terminator genes", a good idea for an only lab-tested organism being released on the world. If a transgenic wheat modification is found to cause problems after a decade or two, it would be nice if wiping it out was easy instead of having it be cross-bred into half the wild grasses in the country.

      For many things I agree that low regulation is a good thing - actual medicine might well benefit from such an approach - it does invite a certain type of charlatan, as well recklessness, but the potential harm is restricted to those who voluntarily participate. An carelessly designed GMO though could rapidly become an invasive organism plaguing the entire world - just look at how "successful" they've been at eliminating ordinary rabbits from Australia...

      Not to mention things like gene drives, which make it possible to ignore the normal rules of inheritance and force a modification to be inherited by 100% of their descendants, making for potentially *extremely* rapid large-scale ecological changes.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    26. Re:Attack Of The Killer Soy Beans? by the_Bionic_lemming · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but plants that change do things like killing off life. Like when they started dumping a poisonous gas into the atmosphere.

      Oxygen was deadly when they did that.

      --
      _ _ _ Go for the eyes Boo! GO FOR THE EYES!
    27. Re: Attack Of The Killer Soy Beans? by slashrio · · Score: 1

      Yeah right, and wikipedia can be trusted on this kind of controversial topics.

      --
      "Trump!!", the new Godwin.
    28. Re:Attack Of The Killer Soy Beans? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      \_(oo)_/

      Stop flashing your boobs to reinforce silly arguments. People are prone to nose bleeds around here.

    29. Re: Attack Of The Killer Soy Beans? by Rei · · Score: 1

      There are links. Check them for yourself. Contrarily, present any evidence whatsoever that he was charged with accidentally planting GM seeds and had argued that it was accidental.

      --
      The internet is not a series of tubes. It's more like a net. Or a network of computers. Or an internet.
    30. Re:Attack Of The Killer Soy Beans? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thank you, l learned something today.

      Man, /. is really going downhill. I come here to troll or be trolled!

    31. Re:Attack Of The Killer Soy Beans? by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      I know you're joking, but...
      Reducing atmospheric nitrogen does not increase the partial pressure of oxygen. Astronauts use low pressure atmospheres with roughly the same partial pressure of oxygen as seen on the earth's surface.

      Smaller, more efficient internal combustion engines would be possible.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    32. Re:Attack Of The Killer Soy Beans? by khallow · · Score: 1

      My point here is that the higher rate of nitrogen fixing may have been detrimental to survival of the bacteria in the wild. If a colony goes all out and another one cuts back a bit, the latter may be more numerous in the soil when all is said and done.

    33. Re: Attack Of The Killer Soy Beans? by gzuckier · · Score: 1

      Chlorophyll Park.

      --
      Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
    34. Re:Attack Of The Killer Soy Beans? by John+Jorsett · · Score: 1

      require all new compounds produced in modified organisms to undergo extensive independent safety testing at least on par with what the FDA (supposedly) requires for new drugs.

      Given how much cost that would add, that would pretty much close the door on any new developments.

    35. Re:Attack Of The Killer Soy Beans? by Immerman · · Score: 1

      Why would it be terribly expensive? You insert a gene to produce protein X into your organism, at the very least protein X should be concentrated and subjected to the same safety tests as any other artificial drug or food additive. Doing otherwise essentially subsidizes reckless commercialization of untested GMOs.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    36. Re:Attack Of The Killer Soy Beans? by jwhitener · · Score: 1

      The plants basically breed them.

      Or you can deliver a highly selected set of them to the plant via whatever irrigation method you use. My father and I have been working with freeze dried bacteria that can be re-constituted and applied to any crop. Over 10,000 acres now. The 'good bacteria' we've surrounded the plant with block out other bad bacteria/disease vectors, as well as fix atmospheric nitrogen, increase carbon mass in the soil, give the roots a big head start early in the grow season, etc..

      And none of this is GMO, so we avoid that 'debate'. http://www.bridgetownorganics.com/ . It isn't very well known though. Many farmers look at us skeptically when we say this little pinky finger size vial of white powder can fertilize 12 acres:), but it works.

      It will be interesting to see how the combination of the these finding will work with the stuff I've mentioned above. I'm a little unclear where the additional proteins were added based on the article though. Added to the plant? Added to the bacteria in the nodules?

  3. Not "Gloom & Doom" misoanthropy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This isn't gloom-and-doom "humans are TEH EVUL!!!" misanthropy?!?!?!

    What's it doing here?

    1. Re:Not "Gloom & Doom" misoanthropy? by pushing-robot · · Score: 2

      Well, these are transgenic plants according to TFAbstract, so the anti-GMO crowd can still demand we not have nice things.

      --
      How can I believe you when you tell me what I don't want to hear?
  4. Great, but by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Can it be applied to a non-garbage plant? Something other than soy, which is one of the most god awful things you can put in your body - industrial processing to make it edible and hormone-like effects abound....

    1. Re:Great, but by phantomfive · · Score: 4, Insightful

      industrial processing to make it edible and hormone-like effects abound....

      Uh, you mean it has to be cooked? Edamame is a delicious dish of straight soybeans........
      Also, every food you eat affects your hormones......

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    2. Re:Great, but by amiga3D · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Leave him alone with his paranoia.

    3. Re:Great, but by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also, every food you eat affects your hormones......

      I respectfully disagree. When I bought that gourmet meal for her, my whore didn't moan. But that cheeseburger made her moan in disgust.

      So, not all food affects whore moans.

    4. Re:Great, but by Ramze · · Score: 3, Informative

      I think he's referring to the isoflavones in soybeans which mimic estrogen and are possibly linked to multiple hormone-related health issues.

      While everything you eat affects your body in some way or another, consuming isoflavones in sufficient quantities which convert into phytoestrogensis a bad idea as hormone balance is especially sensitive to such consumption... well... for men anyway. For post-menopausal women, there have been beneficial effects in studies that show it's similar to taking low-dose hormone-replacement therapies -- ie estrogen pills. There's also a theory that increased soy products have aided in increased breast sizes, early puberty, and low sperm counts... though it's far from proven.

      The National Institute of Health states results from various studies are mixed and that it supports further study, yet cautions women who are at high risk of breast or cervical cancer from eating lots of soy.

      https://nccih.nih.gov/health/s...

    5. Re:Great, but by phantomfive · · Score: 3, Insightful

      There's also a theory that increased soy products have aided in increased breast sizes, early puberty, and low sperm counts... though it's far from proven.

      If that were true, wouldn't regions that eat a lot of tofu have women with generally larger breasts?

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    6. Re:Great, but by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's also a theory that increased soy products have aided in increased breast sizes, early puberty, and low sperm counts... though it's far from proven.

      If that were true, wouldn't regions that eat a lot of tofu have women with generally larger breasts?

      No because the phytoestrogen in soybeans binds preferentially to the beta 1 and 2 estrogen receptors, alpha estrogen receptors are the ones that modulate primary sex characteristics. Hops, for example, contain alpha receptor binding phytoestrogens which are then converted by gut bacteria into even more powerful phytoestrogens, which is why if you drink too much beer you get moobs.

    7. Re:Great, but by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Plant and animal hormones share a chemical structure.

      We're evolved to eat 'pseudo estrogens'. Picking a particular plant to fear, misses be basic point.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    8. Re:Great, but by queazocotal · · Score: 1

      Neglecting the anti-soy - if increasing nitrogen transport from the nodules improves their efficiency, it seems at least plausible that doing this for other plants which naturally fix nitrogen would also help. So - mostly legumes.

    9. Re:Great, but by codeButcher · · Score: 1

      wouldn't regions that eat a lot of tofu have women with generally larger breasts?

      The way I have it is that the traditional fermentation process (also when soy sauce is made the old-fashioned way) diminishes those phytoestrogens considerably. In other words: traditional tofu and soy sauce not problematic, factory produced stuff as available in the West probably problematic.

      (As I'm steering away from all processed foods - due to a general desire to live healthier and a particular desire to increase my quite low testosterone levels, all due to a medical condition -, and since whole soybeans are quite hard to come by in any case in my locale, I don't really care. What I do care about is that soybeans (mostly GMO these days in any case) are a cheap feedstock (together with sunflower and maize) in my locale going into milk, egg and meat production and all contribute to the unhealthily high omega 6 : omega 3 ratio. So for that reason I also try to source organic versions of such food products - and am happy to report that it works me out cheaper too.)

      --
      Free, as in your money being freed from the confines of your account.
    10. Re:Great, but by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Plant and animal hormones share a chemical structure.

      We're evolved to eat 'pseudo estrogens'. Picking a particular plant to fear, misses be basic point.

      First: they are phytoestrogens not pseudo estrogens.

      Second: different estrogen class steroids bind differently to different receptor types

      Third: different receptor types have differing physiological expressions.

      Your reply is like saying we share opioid structures with plants and have evolved that way so different plants and different opioids do not matter.

      You have definitely missed the basic point of my post which, just to make clear, was soy estrogens do not cause breast enlargement at any humanly consumable level, but 8-Prenylnaringenin, which is converted by gut bacteria from Isoxanthohumol is far more potent and binds to the receptor which will cause breast growth.

      In case anyone is wondering genestine (the phytoestrogen in soybeans), is 100 times weaker than 8-Prenylnaringenin.

    11. Re:Great, but by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      wouldn't regions that eat a lot of tofu have women with generally larger breasts?

      The way I have it is that the traditional fermentation process (also when soy sauce is made the old-fashioned way) diminishes those phytoestrogens considerably. In other words: traditional tofu and soy sauce not problematic, factory produced stuff as available in the West probably problematic.

      (As I'm steering away from all processed foods - due to a general desire to live healthier and a particular desire to increase my quite low testosterone levels, all due to a medical condition -, and since whole soybeans are quite hard to come by in any case in my locale, I don't really care. What I do care about is that soybeans (mostly GMO these days in any case) are a cheap feedstock (together with sunflower and maize) in my locale going into milk, egg and meat production and all contribute to the unhealthily high omega 6 : omega 3 ratio. So for that reason I also try to source organic versions of such food products - and am happy to report that it works me out cheaper too.)

      Processing is not the problem. Genestine, the phytoestrogen in soy, is substantially weaker than typical estrogen and binds preferentially to beta 1 and 2 sites. Sexual differentiation is a function of Alpha estrogen receptors, not typically the beta receptors. The typical human female would need to consume about 16-20 lbs of soybeans a day in order for the genestine to have any substantial effect on them. Now 8-Prenylnaringenin, which is converted by intestinal flora from Isoxanthohumol found in hops, is a different story, it binds to alpha receptors and is 100 times more potent than genestine.

    12. Re:Great, but by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey, now, you're not allowed to know what you're talking about here -- we're a bunch of IT geeks who think we know everything because we went to high school.

    13. Re:Great, but by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Leave him alone with his paranoia.

      I'm too busy playing with my huge man-tits to care!

    14. Re:Great, but by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because the first things you think about Asians is the soy and the big tits...

  5. Big agro GMO ploy by Entrope · · Score: 4, Funny

    This is all a sinister plot by big agriculture to poison us all with nitrogen, amirite? They're just looking for ways to stuff more nitrogen and other fillers into our food supply!

    1. Re:Big agro GMO ploy by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 1

      Projections are that the atmosphere could be 78% nitrogen in the future if this is allowed to go forward!

    2. Re: Big agro GMO ploy by gzuckier · · Score: 1

      Everyone knows nitrates are cheaper than day rates.

      --
      Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
    3. Re:Big agro GMO ploy by TechnoJoe · · Score: 1

      Damn straight! We need to stop this conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids!

  6. GMO by phantomfive · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Wait until anti-science folks realize this is GMO.

    --
    "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    1. Re:GMO by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You don't have to be anti-science to think that we need better regulation on GMOs. In particular the Monopoly (or almost of ) by Monsanto on a lot of the base patents when it comes to GMOs is a bigger issue than almost any other with GMOs.... there is more but I'm tired and don't feel like typing more... so...

      TL;DR: Political issues with GMOs and how they are being controlled/used in society doesn't make you anti-science

    2. Re:GMO by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1, Funny

      Wait until anti-science folks realize this is GMO.

      Wait until Trump supporters find out that soybeans make you gay.

      http://www.wnd.com/2006/12/392...

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    3. Re:GMO by Rei · · Score: 2

      They totally missed the chance for an appropriate cover picture for that story.

      --
      The internet is not a series of tubes. It's more like a net. Or a network of computers. Or an internet.
    4. Re:GMO by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      If you don't like GMOs, shouldn't you be happy that Monsanto patented it all so it becomes less widespread? Which patent number in particular do you think should be 'liberated' from Monsanto?

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    5. Re:GMO by NEDHead · · Score: 1

      What is the expiration date on these cited patents? Do no others exist ? Are you anti-patent?

      Or do you resent others accomplishing that of which you are incapable?

    6. Re: GMO by negRo_slim · · Score: 1

      I for one am anti-patent, or rather anti-intellectual property in general. Protections should go to 7 plus 7 if they need to exist at all.

      --
      On the Oregon Cost born and raised, On the beach is where I spent most of my days
    7. Re:GMO by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry, your're argument is ex post facto. None of the original anti-GMO arguments are valid so they invented a new one.

    8. Re:GMO by ChromeAeonium · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You are right that political issues don't make you anti-science, but the vast, vast majority of complaints about GE crops I see claiming to be 'political issues' are simply nonsense dressed up to justify irrational opposition. I'm not sure which specific patent problem you are referring to though.

      You are also right that we need better regulation. The regulations on GE crops are so strict right now that only one non-corporate GE crop is presently in use right now...the Rainbow papaya, developed by the University of Hawai'i, and even the creator of that one believes that the only reason that one made it is because it was released before the regulations became stricter. Very recently we saw approval of an apple by a smaller company. If you want to avoid excessive corporate control by Monsanto (which by the way isn't actually a monopoly considering that the are several other similar companies out there, like Pioneer, Syngenta, Bayer Crop Science, and Dow AgroSciences) then what we need are regulations that will allow innovations like this to actually come to use instead of being shelved indefinitely, which is the fate of most university developed GE crops.

    9. Re:GMO by ChromeAeonium · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Monsanto's first generation of GE soybean went off patent a while back and anyone can now use it. Unlike copyright, plant patents do actually expire.

    10. Re:GMO by OverlordQ · · Score: 1

      There's a difference between hating GMOs because they're GMOs and hating a company that makes GMO crops. There's nothing wrong with GMO.

      --
      Your hair look like poop, Bob! - Wanker.
    11. Re:GMO by Carewolf · · Score: 1

      You don't have to be anti-science to think that we need better regulation on GMOs. In particular the Monopoly (or almost of ) by Monsanto on a lot of the base patents when it comes to GMOs is a bigger issue than almost any other with GMOs...

      Monsoto is a pretty bad company and there are many things wrong with them, but they are not monopoly or a near monopoly, they are not even the biggest player on the market.

      Though if they are allowed to bought by Bayer, they probably will be combined.

    12. Re:GMO by Entrope · · Score: 1

      Government restrictions of this thing are a problem, therefore the solution is more government restrictions of this thing!

      I had something for this.

      Oh, right, a brain.

    13. Re:GMO by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Wait until Trump supporters find out that soybeans make you gay.

      I would have thought that finding out that soybeans give you man boobs would have been enough (and it is actually supported by the available science) but alas, no. People of Wal-Mart, indeed.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    14. Re: GMO by tsotha · · Score: 1

      I'm with you. At this point the patent system is an impediment to technical progress rather than an aid.

    15. Re:GMO by tsotha · · Score: 2

      Wait until some asshole injects politics into a story about plants... oh, nevermind.

    16. Re:GMO by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      Wait until some asshole injects politics into a story about plants... oh, nevermind.

      Hang in there. It'll all be over in a few weeks. Well, to be honest it was all over back in August, but some dead horses really deserve a good beating.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    17. Re:GMO by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      That is a very silly post, phantomfive. Patent numbers are usually not published in newspapers. And ordinary people don't know how to "google" for them.

      But if you give us a list of numbers and the relevant information what it is about, you certainly would get enlightening answers.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    18. Re:GMO by phantomfive · · Score: 2

      You are not an ordinary person. You are extraordinary.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    19. Re:GMO by slashrio · · Score: 1

      It's not the GMO that causes cancer (Seralini, Ibe Pedersen), but the roundup that it allows to be used.
      Well, maybe also the GMO, but glyphosate truly does.

      --
      "Trump!!", the new Godwin.
    20. Re:GMO by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      I don't talk to people about glyphosate unless they also understand half-life. The vast majority of people don't know what they're afraid of, the just read some propaganda uncritically.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    21. Re: GMO by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Since the Constitution requires that patents "promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts" as the current laws do not do that, Copyright and Patent in the US is illegal (unconstitutional). Too bad the government doesn't agree with me.

    22. Re:GMO by slashrio · · Score: 1

      Ok, maybe not the glyphosate but one or some of the additives then. Half-life moot.
      They test for glyphosate, ergo Round-Up, ergo additives.
      What is the half-life of the additives?
      Or, what are the products remaining after glyphosate is 'digested'?

      --
      "Trump!!", the new Godwin.
    23. Re:GMO by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Glyphosate is classified by the WHO as a "probable carcinogen" (IARC Group 2a) not a carcinogen (IARC Group 1). Not that IARC classification means much, because it doesn't actually account for HOW carcinogenic a substance is. Definite group 1 carcinogens include alcoholic beverages, salted fish, sawdust and solar radiation, substances that few people freak out over, yet are better evidenced carcinogens than glyphosate.

    24. Re:GMO by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Organic fertilizer (aka, shit) has actually made people sick. Which additive are you talking about that has made people sick?

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    25. Re:GMO by slashrio · · Score: 1

      Polyalkoxylated surfactants such as the polyoxyethylene alkylamine in RoundUp are contaminated with 1,4-dioxane.
      Vision, a glyphosate product by Monsanto, contains 1,4-dioxane at a level of 350 ppm.
      1,4-dioxane is carcinogenic, and is known to damage the liver, kidney, brain and lungs.
      And we are spraying this on wheat about one week prior to harvest...

      --
      "Trump!!", the new Godwin.
  7. That's great, but by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    what about the adverse health effects from consuming legumes? They never were an appropriate food for humans, and that's not going to change.

    1. Re:That's great, but by Rei · · Score: 4, Informative

      People have been consuming legumes (beans, peas, chickpeas, lentils, etc) since we were hunter-gatherers, and have long formed the staple diets of numerous regions across the world. Legumes are a rich source of plant protein, fiber, carbs, and minerals.

      --
      The internet is not a series of tubes. It's more like a net. Or a network of computers. Or an internet.
    2. Re:That's great, but by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While legumes may have some of the weirdo keto peeps freaking out (many of whom never ate a decent diet their entire lives), note that they have a fairly high fiber to carb ratio. They're not like eating potato chips. Enjoy the beans, they are fantastic for you. Please teach your kids to eat them as well.

      * Disclaimer: married to a spouse that refuses to eat any type of bean "because".

    3. Re:That's great, but by Rei · · Score: 2

      Note that to a primitive peoples, carbs are a very good thing. They're basically pure energy. They don't keep you "full" for as long as fats and protein, so they're not advisable for dieters, but in terms of giving your body energy - one of the primary tasks of any hunter-gathererer - they do the job quite well.

      Fats of course are a "denser" energy source, but they're not found as abundantly in plant sources. And contrary to common perception, with most hunter-gatherer societies, the vast majority of calories tend to come from plants, not animals. It varies depending on the tribe and location (for example, in the high latitudes and altitudes animal sources of energy tend to be more dominant), and of course with the wider spread of megafauna in the past, it's logical to consume a higher portion of meat than today's hunter-gatherer societies (most of whom hunt primarily small game). But regardless, there's no question that in the big picture, plants made up a large portion of their calories, and of those calories, most would be carbs.

      --
      The internet is not a series of tubes. It's more like a net. Or a network of computers. Or an internet.
    4. Re:That's great, but by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... and a source of farts.

      These have only adverse effects for the people around you though.

    5. Re:That's great, but by Type44Q · · Score: 1

      People have been consuming legumes (beans, peas, chickpeas, lentils, etc) since we were hunter-gatherers

      See, that's why we call it hunting and gathering... because it didn't include activities such as consuming legumes [which require cooking to break-down toxic phytins/lectins]. This was the neolithic era; legumes did not begin to be cultivated on a large scale a few tends of thousands of years ago (early neolithic).

    6. Re:That's great, but by Type44Q · · Score: 1

      Typo; the 'hunter-gatherer' era was the paleolithic; the 'Taco Bell era' is the neolithic. ;)

    7. Re:That's great, but by Rei · · Score: 2

      The "Paleo diet" concept that hunter-gatherers do not consume grains and legumes simply because they don't farm them is patently false. Indeed, if you look at the best preserved paleolthic human find, that of Ötzi the Iceman, it appears that a large portion if not a majority of his diet was grains (his second to last meal was herb bread with some red deer). Hunter-gatherers today frequently collect wild grains and legumes, and surely did so in the past as well. Legumes are typically are roasted whole or ground then fried on rocks, rather than fried in fat or boiled as is more typical for modern preparations. The many tribes of Australian aboriginees, for example, relied heavily on acacia pods (particularly in arid areas), with the seeds ground, mixed with water and made into a bread.

      --
      The internet is not a series of tubes. It's more like a net. Or a network of computers. Or an internet.
    8. Re:That's great, but by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are lots of nutrients in poop, too, but that doesn't mean it's a good for you to eat. And while it's not relevant, I doubt people have been eating beans since the hunter-gatherer times, because most beans need ridiculous amount of processing and cooking before they're immidiately edible, and then they still contain damaging proteins. Some beans can not be eaten at all, no matter how you cook them.

    9. Re:That's great, but by Rei · · Score: 2

      There are lots of nutrients in poop, too

      No, there aren't - at least from a human perspective. Sometimes small amounts can be gained by sifting through dried manure for undigested seeds and the like ("second harvest"), but not much.

      I doubt people have been eating beans since the hunter-gatherer times, because most beans need ridiculous amount of processing and cooking before they're immidiately edible

      1) "Beans" are just one category of legume.
      2) No, beans do not need "ridiculous amount of processing and cooking". Dried beans need to be soaked in water for a day or so, then cooked. Non-dried beans do not need to be soaked.
      3) Yes, hunter-gatherer groups, to this day consume significant quantities of legumes. Usually either directly roasted or ground into a flour and made into a bread.
      4) Every type of food contains at least something that can be "damaging" in some context.
      5) "Some X can not be eaten at all" also applies to every type of food, regardless of your category of X. Some berries? Yep. Some leaves? Yep. meats? Yep. Shellfish? Insects? Fungi? Yep, yep, yep.

      --
      The internet is not a series of tubes. It's more like a net. Or a network of computers. Or an internet.
    10. Re:That's great, but by OrangeTide · · Score: 1

      wild rice has been available in North America since the first humans migrated here. And people have a very long history of eating them, even if they weren't planting them intentionally.

      And here's a video of a man planting a primitive sweet potato patch. Everything he's done in the video is available to a person from the middle paleolithic, and possibly as far back as the lower paleolithic. (building a cooking fire starts to become less common when you go back far enough)

      --
      “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
    11. Re:That's great, but by tsotha · · Score: 1

      .. because it didn't include activities such as consuming legumes [which require cooking to break-down toxic phytins/lectins].

      Only if you're using your own private definition of "hunting and gathering". Are you trying to say people in hunter-gatherer societies didn't have fire, or that they didn't cook at all? When it comes to edible plants the only qualification is they didn't engage in agriculture.

  8. Whatever. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Post when they invent Salmon that can be farmed by sunlight only - and still have the Omega-3s.

    Wouldn't that be wild? Salmon with grass green skin?

  9. Great news by pjbgravely · · Score: 1

    Now all we have to do is increase the other plant food, CO2 and the world will plenty of food.

    --
    Star Trek, there maybe hope.
    1. Re:Great news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was thinking the same thing. Something that got plants to pull CO2 from the air at a greater rate would be groundbreaking.

    2. Re:Great news by queazocotal · · Score: 1

      The above does that to a degree.
      It both does not use nitrogen fertiliser - which means no CO2 is used in the production and transport of the bacteria, and grows bigger - which absorbs more CO2.

  10. Yeah.. by johnsmithperson123 · · Score: 0

    Honestly, this is a good example of why we shouldn't panic about rising population levels- our farming efficiency growth exceeds our population growth.

    1. Re:Yeah.. by amiga3D · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Honestly having enough food is the least of the problems with too many people on the planet.

    2. Re:Yeah.. by lobiusmoop · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The big problem is that every calorie of food requires the input of 10 calories of fossil-fuel energy, mainly from oil and gas, which will be running out within your lifetime.

      --
      "I bless every day that I continue to live, for every day is pure profit."
    3. Re:Yeah.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The big problem is the dicatorships and other oppressive regimes which cut off the supply of food aid to their constituents.

      The problem isn't having enough food. The problem is getting it to the people that need it.

    4. Re:Yeah.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      But why should we want more people on Earth? We want more productive people on Earth, but the most productive societies in the world tend to have the lowest reproduction rates as their members carefully curate a few offspring rather than spawn prolifically in hopes that a few will survive and care for them in their old age. As automation increasingly eliminates jobs, we should be working on increasing the quality, not the quantity, of people on the Earth.

    5. Re:Yeah.. by codeButcher · · Score: 1

      The big problem is that every calorie of food requires the input of 10 calories of fossil-fuel energy, mainly from oil and gas, which will be running out within your lifetime.

      Well, people have been producing calories far longer than they have been using fossil fuels to do it. But a return to those methods may not be very compatible with the modern Agribusiness/GMO complex.

      At least all those overweight people will finally be able to use up the reserves...

      --
      Free, as in your money being freed from the confines of your account.
    6. Re:Yeah.. by nedlohs · · Score: 1

      It's not "the modern Agribusiness/GMO complex" that it would be incompatible with, it would be incompatible with current global human population levels.

      And it's no those overweight Americans who will starve...

    7. Re:Yeah.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Earth is as much the home of animals as it is the home of humans. Don't forget that.

      Humans have cause the greatest mass extinction since the prehistoric big asteroid hit. Earth is already suffering because of us. We are the worst pest this planet has ever had.

    8. Re: Yeah.. by johnsmithperson123 · · Score: 1

      Well, one of the big problems is that in developed nations, the people with the lowest incomes have the most children.

    9. Re: Yeah.. by the_povinator · · Score: 1

      Agree with both parents.

      --
      The .sig is dead, and I believe I had a hand in killing it.
    10. Re:Yeah.. by PPH · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Maybe. But then there's that little bit in TFS that says "it reduces the need for fertilizer". Which means less petrochemical input into the food cycle. That could be a good thing.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    11. Re:Yeah.. by Xenna · · Score: 1

      "mainly from oil and gas, which will be running out within your lifetime."

      I should be so lucky. I'm afraid we're going to need some even more spectacular scientific breakthroughs to make that happen :(

    12. Re:Yeah.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why? Malthusians have been crying about overpopulation since 1798 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malthusianism

      Thing is, you are always wrong. And every so many years, a new band of useful idiots comes along and we have to hear the same ol bullshit again.

    13. Re:Yeah.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nope, incompatible with the US / first world complex. The entire world can easily be fed on organic produce, but the majority of westerners demand luxury foods and insane amounts of it. We can support an estimated 40 billion people with the bare minimum diet to survive. This isn't new information, it is old, yet so many people repeat your bs.

    14. Re:Yeah.. by nedlohs · · Score: 1

      You are simply lying. The green revolution is the only reason we can support current population levels let alone your ludicrous number.

    15. Re:Yeah.. by amiga3D · · Score: 1

      What's your point? Do you think the planet can support an unlimited number of people? 7 billion people who all want to live at the same level as the average first world citizen? Use a comparable amount of resources? Food isn't really a problem today other than actually getting it to starving people. However billions of cars and houses with A/C and swimming pools and all the other stuff of modern life taxes the planet's resoucrces much more than some people living in a hut alongside a river. I don't subscribe to "the sky is falling" group of climate change evangelists but certain facts are hard to deny. The current level of industry on Earth is causing heating of the planet. This will obviously continue as there will be no real change in output. It's a problem, not the end of the world but it will most likely cause a lot of strife down the road. And people will continue to breed and the population will continue to grow. People being people you can be absolutely certain that war will happen and it'll be all the worse for it having been so long since the last big one. I imagine population growth will cease to be such a huge problem after that.

    16. Re:Yeah.. by tsotha · · Score: 1

      Because that's the most cost efficient way to do it. When fossil fuels get more expensive food will get more expensive, but don't buy into the idea we're going to see mass starvation. Not at current population levels.

      And fossil fuels will not be "running out" in our lifetime or anyone else's, though they will become too expensive to use for noncritical transportation.

    17. Re: Yeah.. by slashrio · · Score: 1

      Allow the people to prosper and the reproduction rate will go below 1.

      --
      "Trump!!", the new Godwin.
    18. Re:Yeah.. by stigmerger · · Score: 1

      Honestly, this is a good example of why we shouldn't panic about rising population levels- our farming efficiency growth exceeds our population growth.

      Yeast populations face two problems as they grow: (a) running out of sugar, (b) getting poisoned by the alcohol they generate.

    19. Re:Yeah.. by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Do you think the planet can support an unlimited number of people?

      Yes.

      7 billion people who all want to live at the same level as the average first world citizen?

      Yes.

      The current level of industry on Earth is causing heating of the planet.

      So if all those industries used solely solar, would the earth still be heating?

      We have a long way to go before we are unable to produce enough food to feed everyone. And like food getting to those who need it, much of the over-consumption is about getting the niceties of life to those who are in need, not about the ability to build them sustainably.

    20. Re:Yeah.. by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

      This 1/3 increase would approximately cover the increase in human population since the early 1990s. As I recall, starvation was not exactly unknown in the 1980s.

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
    21. Re:Yeah.. by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      About 50 years ago Isaac Asimov pointed out that at the then-current rate of population growth, in about 6000 years the entire mass of the universe would be people. That constitutes a hard limit on the number of people the planet can support.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    22. Re:Yeah.. by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      The area of the Earth is about 128 billion acres. Sufficiently aggressive use of non-"green revolution" agriculture could feed much more than the current population (where "sufficiently aggressive" includes covering the oceans with farm-barges and growing only the most productive food crops.)

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    23. Re:Yeah.. by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      Earth is already suffering...

      Did you have to think a great deal to write something so stupid, or was the process of thought not involved at all?
      Earth does not have a brain or a nervous system. It can no more suffer than a rock, a cup of soup, or a bowl of vegetables can suffer - Sylvester the cat notwithstanding.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    24. Re:Yeah.. by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      There is a limit, but that limit isn't finite. Not that it means it's infinite, but there is no "hard" limit. The practical limit will be reached before a "hard" limit.

  11. Rushing? by Tablizer · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Why didn't natural selection already "discover" this? Perhaps there's a big trade-off that hasn't been discovered yet.

    1. Re:Rushing? by N!k0N · · Score: 1

      Seems natural selection went for "carnivorous" (see venus flytrap, sundew, etc).

    2. Re:Rushing? by Rei · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Natural selection optimizes to a plant's natural environment. Intensive modern agriculture is not a plant's natural environment. Everything comes with tradeoffs, and in nature there are a lot of things that come into play beyond just "racing to as many seeds as possible". Perhaps, for example, by producing more nitrogen they'd be fertilizing the soil for their competitors which would outgrow them - maybe they were limiting the nitrogen for a reason.

      Indeed, this actually does seem to happen. Here in Iceland, lupine is not a native species, but it's taken off like crazy since it was introduced (to try to restore our soil), pushing out native species. However, evidence shows that after an area has grown lupine for several decades, it tends to slowly die out, being replaced by native plants that can now - due to the improved soil - outcompete the lupine. Lupine is, of course, a legume.

      --
      The internet is not a series of tubes. It's more like a net. Or a network of computers. Or an internet.
    3. Re:Rushing? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it doesn't exactly optimize as much as it gives pressure to be just good enough to survive long enough to produce offspring.

    4. Re:Rushing? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What's more, natural selection is optimizing for survival, not crop yields.

  12. This should be used with Cannabis by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Higher crop yield and less fertilizer? Maybe the prices will drop, but probably not.

    1. Re:This should be used with Cannabis by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      Higher crop yield and less fertilizer? Maybe the prices will drop, but probably not.

      Or what usually happens: we grow more humans.

    2. Re: This should be used with Cannabis by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I came here hoping this would dominate the discussion. Sadly disappointed. Maybe I'm on the wrong forum?

    3. Re:This should be used with Cannabis by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 2

      Or what usually happens: we grow more humans.

      Nope - more efficient food production leads to more leisure time which leads to more education which leads to lower population levels. Feed everybody as much as possible if you want the population to decline.

      https://www.ted.com/talks/hans...

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    4. Re:This should be used with Cannabis by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      I have to disagree. It depends on the culture and environment of a group. When given more food, some make condoms, others make babies.

  13. Oh by fubarrr · · Score: 1

    That's a breakthrough. It will be interesting to see if this can stack up with induced nodule growth methods

  14. The anti-GMO know-nothings by jodido · · Score: 0

    Here's yet another chance to grow more food in a world where billions of people don't have enough, but I am 100 percent certain the anti-GMO pro-hunger gang will oppose it, as they have with so many other opportunities.

    1. Re:The anti-GMO know-nothings by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you really cared about those people then you'd allow them to make a copy of this breakthrough.

    2. Re:The anti-GMO know-nothings by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      MOD PARENT UP!!!
      Science not money!

    3. Re:The anti-GMO know-nothings by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Growing enough food isn't a problem. We already grow enough for everyone.
      Problem is, the people without food aren't worth enough to warrant the cost of getting the extra food to them.

    4. Re:The anti-GMO know-nothings by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      more food in a world where billions of people don't have enough

      "More food" isn't the issue - we have a food surplus but it's typically politics which prevent delivery.

  15. Legal weed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ever since cannabis was legalized for recreational purposes every day there's a new magic breakthrough fertilizer or grow media that will boost your yields by 1/3rd i promise.

    Hell if you mix all that shit together you are guaranteed to be growing 20 ton weed plants in your closet.

  16. WTF? Anti-Gay? by nicoleb_x · · Score: 1

    You're good with links so please show where Trump and his supports are anti-gay? You're probably confusing Trump with Hillary who happily takes money from the leaders of countries where being gay results in the death penalty. Or maybe me who happily buys gas refined from oil purchased from countries where being gay results in the death penalty.

    1. Re:WTF? Anti-Gay? by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Calm down yo, it was a joke.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    2. Re:WTF? Anti-Gay? by loganljb · · Score: 2

      While you would probably consider politifact to be biased (or think that not supporting same-sex marriage isn't the same as "anti-gay"), how about this: http://www.politifact.com/new-...

  17. Neo-Triffid tech. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Can't wait for this to cross over to the Venus Flytraps or other endearing little pretties. Or twisted proteins having unexpected results. Despite the rigorous and extended testing that was tirelessly carried out before being approved by top financial CEOs.

  18. and by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 0
    Immediately slashdot goes apeshit nuts because Evil Scientists! Because this will end up killing everyone because ....

    I have heard that genetic modified food causes autism.

    --
    The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    1. Re: and by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or it creates human sized plants that feed on humans with an insatiable appetite.

      FEED ME SEYMORE!!!

  19. whoosh by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

    Perhaps there needs to be some kind of "I am kidding" tag for situations like this. Like /S... maybe I should do this:

    <JustKidding> Jk! Jk! Jk! </JustKidding>

    --
    I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
  20. maybe, maybe not by doug141 · · Score: 4, Funny

    An economist is walking through the park with his son. "Look, Dad! There's a $20 under that bench!" Dad says, "Don't be absurd... if there was, someone would have picked it up."

  21. They can go pound sand by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    we're gonna do this come hell or high water. It's the only way to feed everybody. With our aging population we're gonna need higher crop yields per unite of labor or we're gonna have mass starvation.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:They can go pound sand by currently_awake · · Score: 1

      GMO has nothing to do with feeding the poor starving masses. Western countries limit food production so we don't suppress food prices and put farmers out of business while third world farmers can't afford to buy seeds so they will never see the benefits. GMO exists only to increase profit margins. Also third world countries already have mass starvation. Food is the only limit on their population, so no matter how much food production increases they will eventually return to mass starvation.

    2. Re:They can go pound sand by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Also third world countries already have mass starvation.

      Those are fourth world countries mate, and there aren't many countries like that left.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    3. Re:They can go pound sand by ChromeAeonium · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Bollocks, what of all the GE crops like Golden Rice, BioCassava, Bangladeshi Bt Eggplant, and Brazilian golden mosaic virus resistant beans developed exactly for that purpose? These of course are equally opposed by anti-GE activists, probably more so because of how they disprove your claim. Besides that, GE is such a broad term that you might as well say cooking exists solely to make McDonald's money.

    4. Re:They can go pound sand by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      what of all the GE crops like Golden Rice, BioCassava, Bangladeshi Bt Eggplant, and Brazilian golden mosaic virus resistant beans developed exactly for that purpose?

      As a species we throw away six times as much food as we'd need to feed the hungry every year. The notion that we need new food crops to feed everyone is... notional. If we're not willing to solve the problem through distribution, we need only to abandon these environmentally inefficient monocultural farming practices. Robotics provides the way forward here as in so many other disciplines, where we have gone awry in the name of labor efficiency. Planting guilds with integrated pest management meaning trap crops and attractants of beneficial insects both reduces pests (who are attracted to monocultures, which in turn breed super-swarms) and reduces fertilizer and even water requirements.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    5. Re:They can go pound sand by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Except for Somalia and Sudan, 3rd world countries don't exist anymore (since 20 years).
      And the problems in those countries are political and not a farming/water/harvest/food problem.

      However your tag regarding GMO is right.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    6. Re:They can go pound sand by slashrio · · Score: 1

      That's a myth. And just like you I don't post a link to prove my point.

      --
      "Trump!!", the new Godwin.
    7. Re:They can go pound sand by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      Pointing to "distribution" as the problem glosses over the fact that repressive governments prevent distribution of food to their enemies.

      Improved nitrogen fixation allowing reduced use of expensive (and in some cases energy-intensive) fertilizer is a big deal, and should be encouraged.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
  22. WAIT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Isnt this how bad science fiction movies usually start.. some well intentioned invention and next thing you know some unexpected plague or mutant is terrorizing the planet! Damn scientists, have you learned nothing from popular media?!?!?!?

    1. Re:WAIT by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      I kind of feel like it will end up with a plant eating someone named Audrey.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    2. Re:WAIT by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      The Day of the Triffids is the standard in the carnivorous plant genre, and Wyndham's novel is generally regarded as being among the best.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
  23. We All Know Where This Will Lead To by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  24. Electrolytes? by TJHook3r · · Score: 1

    It's electrolytes isn't it? The taste that plants crave?

  25. Unintended consequences: by macraig · · Score: 1

    More and bigger plants will also mean even faster exhaustion of micro-nutrients from the soil. Since not all the biomass produced in that soil is being recycled into it - the whole point of agriculture is our removal and use of parts of the plants - then the soil will slowly be exhausted of its non-infinite supply of those nutrients. The future results is food crops that contain less of those micro-nutrients, leaving future generations that consume them with a deficit. We've already seen this effect in the last century or less. A very deliberate effort could be made to restore what is exhausted, but this is COMMERCIAL agriculture FOR PROFIT; money is the ultimate motivation, not long-term soil health or the health of people who eat what grows from it.

  26. SMAC is right again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Remember, genes are not blueprints. This means you can’t, for example, insert “the genes for an elephant’s trunk” into a giraffe and get a giraffe with a trunk. There are no genes for trunks. What you can do with genes is chemistry, since DNA codes for chemicals. For instance, we can in theory splice the native plants’ talent for nitrogen fixation into a terran plant.

    —Academician Prokhor Zakharov,
    “Nonlinear Genetics”

  27. The Secret Life of Plants (book) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Decades ago plants were already being made to give better yields through natural means. Examples - George E. Smith, Luther Burbank, and I'm sure more.

  28. Feed me ... by PPH · · Score: 1

    ... Seymour!

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
  29. I am allergic to soybean by ctrl-alt-canc · · Score: 1

    you, insensitive clod!

    1. Re:I am allergic to soybean by oic0 · · Score: 1

      Same here lol. They already put it in EVERYTHING. With this advancment they'll probably just replace all food with it completely and ill be forced to grow my own food.

  30. Local minima by aepervius · · Score: 1

    Simplified, Natural selection is only about competitive advantage to reproduction and escape predator to come to reproduction age. It is not about the *most* efficient ways to get there, but sometimes simply just be a bit better than the other species. As such, it can simply stay stuck at a local minima if there is no selection pressure. In other word, there is not always a trade off. Sometimes it is simply that there is no selection pressure where this could bring something to the plant reproduction.

    --
    C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
    visit randi.org
    1. Re:Local minima by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      They are also competing against members of their own species.

    2. Re:Local minima by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

      As such, it can simply stay stuck at a local minima if there is no selection pressure.

      More to the point in this case, they can get stuck in a local maximum which is not a global (or even regional) maximum, with no path of continually improving results that will lead away from the local maximum. At which point, natural selection won't be able to drive the system away from the non-optimal solution.

      A system might be able to evolve away from such a situation, but it probably relies on "lucky leaps" of evolution, such as gene duplications.

      Natural selection is undoubtedly powerful, but is not a panacea.

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
  31. Already over populated by OrangeTide · · Score: 1

    I think every human being should be able to own 1 square mile of land.
    Of course that means we only have room for 57 million people.
    The Earth is about 1250% over populated by my standard.

    --
    “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
  32. Not again? Did they use Klebsiella planticola? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    From the Slashdot article: "Tegeder designed a novel way to increase the flow of nitrogen, an essential nutrient, from specialized bacteria in soybean root nodules to the seed-producing organs."

    From: http://www.saynotogmos.org/kle...
    "In the early 1990s a European genetic engineering company was preparing to field test and then commercialize on a major scale a genetically engineered soil bacteria called Klebsiella planticola. The bacteria had been tested--as it turns out in a careless and very unscientific mannner--by scientists working for the biotech industry and was believed to be safe for the environment. Fortunately a team of independent scientists, headed by Dr. Elaine Ingham of Oregon State University, decided to run their own tests on the gene-altered Klebsiella planticola. What they discovered was not only startling, but terrifying--the biotech industry had created a biological monster--a genetically engineered microorganism that would kill all terrestrial plants. After Ingham's expose, of course the gene-altered Klebsiella planticola was never commercialized. But as Ingham points out, the lack of pre-market safety testing of other genetically altered organisms virtually guarantees that future biological monsters will be released into the environment."

    1. Re: Not again? Did they use Klebsiella planticola? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I call Bullshit.
      http://www.nature.com/nbt/journal/v19/n4/full/nbt0401_292.html

    2. Re: Not again? Did they use Klebsiella planticola? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your bullshit detector is working perfectly.

  33. No it is not. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Kitazawa Seed Company (kitazawaseed.com) -- Over a hundred years old and survived interment during WW2! Major kinds of seed for most asian cuisine.
    Baker Creek Seed Company (rareseeds.com) -- Nationally recognized anti-GMO seed grower/finder/seller/redistributor. Lots to read here too.

    There are dozens or hundreds of other companies just across the US, and Baker Creek has projects going with lots of other trial farm projects worldwide.

    (Unrelated to either mentioned company, but a proud customer/supporter of both!)

    1. Re:No it is not. by Immerman · · Score: 1

      Then why would the paper discussing the effects refer to the plants being transgenic? Last I heard traditional crossbreeding isn't classified as transgenic.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
  34. just check the nutrient levels, okay? by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

    Nutrient levels in vegetables are down sharply since the 1930s and even down since the 1980s.

    https://www.scientificamerican...

    A landmark study on the topic by Donald Davis and his team of researchers from the University of Texas (UT) at Austinâ(TM)s Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry was published in December 2004 in the Journal of the American College of Nutrition. They studied U.S. Department of Agriculture nutritional data from both 1950 and 1999 for 43 different vegetables and fruits, finding âoereliable declinesâ in the amount of protein, calcium, phosphorus, iron, riboflavin (vitamin B2) and vitamin C over the past half century. Davis and his colleagues chalk up this declining nutritional content to the preponderance of agricultural practices designed to improve traits (size, growth rate, pest resistance) other than nutrition.

    âoeEfforts to breed new varieties of crops that provide greater yield, pest resistance and climate adaptability have allowed crops to grow bigger and more rapidly,â reported Davis, âoebut their ability to manufacture or uptake nutrients has not kept pace with their rapid growth.â There have likely been declines in other nutrients, too, he said, such as magnesium, zinc and vitamins B-6 and E, but they were not studied in 1950 and more research is needed to find out how much less we are getting of these key vitamins and minerals.

    --
    She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    1. Re:just check the nutrient levels, okay? by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      Multiple studies have duplicated the results.

      The Organic Consumers Association cites several other studies with similar findings: A Kushi Institute analysis of nutrient data from 1975 to 1997 found that average calcium levels in 12 fresh vegetables dropped 27 percent; iron levels 37 percent; vitamin A levels 21 percent, and vitamin C levels 30 percent. A similar study of British nutrient data from 1930 to 1980, published in the British Food Journal,found that in 20 vegetables the average calcium content had declined 19 percent; iron 22 percent; and potassium 14 percent. Yet another study concluded that one would have to eat eight oranges today to derive the same amount of Vitamin A as our grandparents would have gotten from one.

      I had some tomatoes the other day and they literally tasted like grapes (they had that much sugar) instead of tomatoes.

      We seem to have gotten past the "tastes like cardboard there is so much cellulose to improve shipping life" stage and gotten things that look better and taste better but they are significantly lower in nutrition.

      I think it's possible to have the nutrients- but we need to measure them and report on them for companies to target on them. If you don't measure nutrients, companies are going to focus on looks and taste over nutrition.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.