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'Cultlike' Devotion: Apple Once Refused To Join Open Compute Project, So Their Entire Networking Team Quit (businessinsider.com)

mattydread23 writes: Great story about the Open Compute Project from Business Insider's Julie Bort here, including this fun tidbit: "'OCP has a cultlike following,' one person with knowledge of the situation told Business Insider. 'The whole industry, internet companies, vendors, and enterprises are monitoring OCP.' OCP aims to do for computer hardware what the Linux operating system did for software: make it 'open source' so anyone can take the designs for free and modify them, with contract manufacturers standing by to build them. In its six years, OCP has grown into a global entity, with board members from Facebook, Goldman Sachs, Intel, and Microsoft. In fact, there's a well-known story among OCP insiders that demonstrates this cultlike phenom. It involves Apple's networking team. This team was responsible for building a network at Apple that was so reliable, it never goes down. Not rarely -- never. Building a 100% reliable network to meet Apple's exacting standards was no easy task. So, instead of going it alone under Apple's secrecy, the Apple networking team wanted to participate in the revolution, contributing and receiving help. But when the Apple team asked to join OCP, Apple said 'no.' 'The whole team quit the same week,' this person told us."

13 of 239 comments (clear)

  1. Never Down by speedplane · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This team was responsible for building a network at Apple that was so reliable it would never down. Not rarely — never.

    Leave it to business insider to make ludicrous claims about network availability. If Apple's network had 99.99% uptime, and it would cost ten billion dollars to add another 9 to it, I'm pretty sure they'd rather pocket that money than spend it on more redundant switches/routers.

    --
    Fast Federal Court and I.T.C. updates
    1. Re:Never Down by cheater512 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Full redundancy still has outages, even significant ones.

      In my experience the more layers of redundancies, the more edge cases you need to catch.

    2. Re:Never Down by AK+Marc · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Full redundancy has piles of single points of failure. I've seen a BGP flap take out a Fortune 100 company with N+1 redundancy that cost billions. Redundancy increases complexity, and there's always a point where the "redundancy enabling" technology becomes a single point of failure.

    3. Re:Never Down by Gussington · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Um, you do realize that there are networking technologies to protect the network from practically every scenario that you mentioned?

      There are no free lunches. You either have a simple network that could fail and is easy to understand and fix, or a complex network that could also fail but is a nightmare to understand and fix. The other big issue with the latter network, is the size and complexity makes upgrades and patching difficult and expensive, and if people leave it's difficult to bring them up to speed on how it works. The results is that it costs more to maintain than you would lose with a few hours downtime each year. So there is no such thing as a network that never goes down, you either have one that is cost effective or you don't.

    4. Re:Never Down by AK+Marc · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And no, redundancy doesn't make things harder as long as it's implemented properly

      "properly" by your definition is prohibitively expensive. Almost nobody does it. Realistic redundancy leaves lots of gaps and holes. And in many cases, active/standby is dangerous. HSRP, STP, and many other protocols are active/standby with errors in the standby allowing massive networking failures. And, of course, the protocol to manage that redundancy is a single point of failure. You could abandon HSRP to avoid that single point of failure, and instead have multiple gateways and every endpoint running a dynamic routing protocol but that just moves the single point of failure to whatever routing protocol you pick, and isn't generally done for a variety of very good reasons.

      Nope, the simplest network is often more reliable than the rube goldberg redundant networks I've seen experts like yourself put together. KISS is one of the first rules, and the more you know, the more it matters. KISS. Anything else is expense for the sake of complexity.

  2. Re:Reasonable by DogDude · · Score: 5, Insightful

    We use Chinese made hardware because it works better than US made stuff (Cisco). If the Chinese gov't wants to spy on our business, they can have at it. It's worth it to us to have reliable equipment.

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    I don't respond to AC's.
  3. My network has 100% uptime. 2-0 team is undefeated by raymorris · · Score: 3, Insightful

    100% uptime means the network wasn't down in time period you're talking about. My network has 100% uptime this week.
    Maybe last year I had crappy up time, but this year my network doesn't go down (hasn't gone down).

    I enjoy the first few weeks of football season because my team is always undefeated, at least until the end of the first game.

    Actually 100% uptime even over a long period isn't THAT difficult - heteregenous reduncancy pretty much does the trick. That's heterogenous, not homogenous. In other words, you have redundancy for everything, but not by having two of the exact same things. You have a pair of connections (or sets of connections) to the outside world - a metro ethernet connection from one provider, and a direct MPLS connection from another. A Cisco router in the metroE and a Juniper on the MPLS.

      It's extremely unlikely that both providers will go down at the same time. It's extremely unlikely that both the Cisco (or pair of Ciscos) and the pair of Junipers will crap out simultaneously.

  4. Apple makes stupid hardware decisions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If I were an apple hardware engineer I'd quit too. Clearly a company that's selling 3-4 year old technology as a new "top spec" computer doesn't value their hardware wing.

    Don't get me started on the fact that their only laptop with a network adapter is 4+ years old...

  5. Re: After ripping BSD they deserve it by BlackSabbath · · Score: 3, Insightful

    > After ripping BSD

    *facepalm*

  6. Re:Reasonable by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Cisco buys from the Chinese. All the best stuff is made in China

    All the worst stuff too.

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    #DeleteChrome
  7. Re:Come on... by Required+Snark · · Score: 3, Insightful
    You want to know why software never really gets better? It's because "old timers" are deliberately flushed from the system, so there is no institutional memory. Over time the same mistakes get made over and over again because no one remembers what happened the last time.

    This is not the same as hardware, because in real engineering work there are people who have a long time track record. (The phrase Software Engineering is an oxymoron.) Unfortunately the same short sighted behavior is starting to invade some engineering disciplines, so they will end up producing crap as well.

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    Why is Snark Required?
  8. Re:Come on... by Voyager529 · · Score: 1, Insightful

    The definition of the term "better" is the key here. In broad terms, a product is "better" if it more closely meets the needs of the person or organization than what was previously being used.

    One thing that comes to mind that made old software "better" was how much smaller it was. The oldest Microsoft Office ISO I have immediately available is 2003 Professional. It's 410MB for, if memory serves, everything including Access and Frontpage. The Office 2016 Professional installer is 2.4GB, and doesn't allow for any installation customization unless you use the volume licensed editions. There are certainly improvements (>1 million rows in Excel, multiple Exchange server support in Outlook, sparklines, and better PDF support and WordArt in Word), but a sixfold upshot in installer size? Those don't align. A kitchen-sink installation of the current version of Winamp is about 50MB - a number that is incredibly bloated by 2.91's 26MB full install, but a bargain compared to the 200-300MB required by iTunes. Then, there is the train wreck that are HP printer drivers...

    Older software was much more frugal with its system resource usage. Today's software couldn't care less. Whether the increase in user friendliness really justifies the much larger increase in application size is an exercise left to the reader - there are plenty of examples in either direction. Install size is just one example. The increased requirement of an internet connection is a point of contention for me. The mass migration to "cloud applications" that are indefinitely rented, but never owned, isn't something I'm generally a fan of. The increase in telemetry and decrease in customization options are two things that I find are not things from which I benefit. There is a reason why OldVersion.com is a thing - because newer is not always better.

  9. Re:After ripping BSD they deserve it by DuckDodgers · · Score: 3, Insightful

    You're not being fair and you know it. Most of the public, through no fault of their own, is not educated in the value of software freedom. So they take walled gardens and digital rights management as a given. Now consider the difference between an iPhone and a Macbook versus a Samsung Galaxy S-something and a high end Dell laptop.

    First, Apple does have an edge in aesthetics in the judgment of most people. If that didn't matter, we Linux enthusiasts would be merrily running FVWM and Blackbox.
    The iPhone is likely to get software updates and security updates from Apple much longer than the Android device. Software updates for the Macbook might only be for four or five years, while Windows 13 will probably run on the Dell. The new Apple operating systems are cheap, too.
    And Apple support might charge through the nose, but it's fast and efficient. If you have to call Dell support, it's probably less painful to just light yourself on fire and be done with it.

    Android and Windows own most of their respective consumer markets because the great majority of smart phone and laptop shoppers can't budget the iPhone and a $1000 machine. But for people who can afford high end devices, Apple is not a waste of money only pursued by fashion victims and phonies.