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Why Apple and Microsoft Are Using Last Year's Skylake Processors In Their New Computers (gizmodo.com)
Apple released new MacBook Pros yesterday that feature Intel's year-old Skylake microarchitcure, as opposed to the newer Kaby Lake architecture. Two days earlier, Microsoft did the same thing when it released the Surface Studio. Given the improvements Kaby Lake processors have over Skylake processors, one would think they would be included in the latest and greatest products from Microsoft and Apple. Gizmodo explains why that's not the case: In the case of the new 15-inch MacBook the answer is simple. "The Kaby Lake chip doesn't exist yet," an Apple rep told Gizmodo. Kaby Lake is being rolled out relatively slowly, and it's only available in a few forms and wattages. The 15-inch MacBook Pro uses a quad-core processor that has no Kaby Lake equivalent currently. That particular laptop really does have the fastest processor available. The same goes for the Microsoft Surface Studio and updated Surface Book -- both also use a quad-core Skylake processor with no Kaby Lake counterpart. But the Studio and Surface Book are also using much older video cards from the Nvidia 900 series. Nvidia has much faster and less power-hungry chips (the 1000 series) available based on the Pascal architecture. Microsoft's reasoning for going with older video cards is nearly identical to Apple's for going with a slower processor in its 13-inch MacBook Pro: the Nvidia 1000 series came out too late. The major intimation was that Kaby Lake and Pascal came so late in the design process that it would have delayed the final products if they'd chosen to use them. New technology, no matter how amazing an upgrade it might be, still requires considerable testing before it can be shipped to consumers. One minor bug, particularly in a system as engineered as the Surface Studio or MacBook Pro, can turn catastrophic if engineers aren't careful. In the case of Microsoft, it's frustrating, because that old GPU is significantly slower than the Pascal GPUs available. It's a little less frustrating in Apple's case, largely because of the old processor microarchitecture that Apple elected to shove into its new 13-inch MacBook Pro. Apple went with a new Skylake dual core processor that draws a lot of power -- more so than any Kaby Lake processor available. It then uses all that extra power to ramp up the speeds of the processor. Which means it is capable of pulling off speeds that can actually match those of the fastest Kaby Lake processor out there. The only downside to this decision is battery life.
Meh.
Fast I/O and 16GB of fast-ish ram is going to help a lot too. From what I've seen, Kaby lake is only an incremental speed boost anyway.
The dark side of this relationship between manufacturor and user is that the provider might want to sell both product lines rather than just the first one. "consumers on both sides of the tracks will have the unquenchable desire to have the latest flangle". In both cases, there may already be plenty of CPU horse power, so that even last years model works fine . Sorta feels like the cable industry letting go of the Triple play. Sometimes we users just dont need a new version. Or they will down-spec the initial to make the next rev required?
Time for a new Political party in the US (or two!) One is off the rails Other cant pony up a leader.
No, FOTU. Fear Of The Unknown
Current chipsets have enough power to make any device seem very quick to the average users. Only the super high-end buyers would even be able to name the latest. Why risk using a brand new chip?
How many incremental units do you ship because you used the latest new chipset v. downside risk of potential issues with a chip that has not been tested in a full market release?
It's math. Nothing complicated about it.
I understand everything. Still they had 4 yo laptops! They could wait 6 more months and create a modern notebook.
Besides, there are notebooks with kaby lake processors. Example: http://www.ultrabookreview.com/11638-intel-kabylake/
I am dissapointed with new Macbook Pro. I was waiting for them before do my decistion. I will go ahead and get this System 76 Serval for Machine Learning. https://system76.com/laptops/serval . At least they have desktop nvidia 1080 and desktop CPUs...
Perhaps if nVidia would quit changing BGA pinouts, companies would be more likely to substitute their newer processors.
Of course if they did that, companies might also substitute a competitors part instead. Then nVidia would end up having to compete on price/performance. And no one wants that.
This doesn't matter to me at all.
What matters to me is:
1) Moderately powerful discrete GPU options
2) Anti-glare LCD panels
3) Ports (you know, things like USB 2.0/3.0, Ethernet, headphone/microphone jacks, DisplayPort, etc)
4) More than 16GB of RAM
5) User replaceable batteries, OR a built-in battery of sufficient capacity this doesn't matter
6) Keyboards with a reasonable amount of key travel (0.5mm or whatever it is on the nMBP is hardly sufficient)
7) Apparently, I can add "keyboards with a reasonable amount of physical keys" to this list as well
A quad core CPU would be nice. Beyond that, I don't really care because anything "i7" is already fast enough for me. I don't need the latest greatest CPU the moment it comes out. It would be nice if the rest of the machine were kept up to date though, in terms of GPU options and other stuff, so that when I do decide to purchase a machine I'm actually getting something indicative of modern day technology (even if the CPU is a generation behind). Situations like the MBP (where everyone waited for this "major update") and nMP are pretty much inexcusable for a company with $200B in the bank.
nVidia already competes on price and performance... AMD is just not a great competitor, and basically nobody else is bothering to try. Still, the fact that nVidia does have such a huge position makes their pricing strategy pretty awesome (they could be charging more, but have been keeping prices stable or lower).
[nt]
You're a pooty head.
For development and testing. Pretty standard to co-opt competitors.
Did they really need that much text to explain the situation? I feel like that paragraph contained a lot of words, but said very little.
After the price and dongle debacle, this is the first I have heard of this issue. Think i can wait another year and see who implodes first. And who innovates.
nVidia already competes on price and performance... AMD is just not a great competitor, and basically nobody else is bothering to try.
There is no way in hell a system designer is going to substitute a newer part, unless they can:
(A) do it without a redesign/board relayout
(B) do it in a way that lets them back out of the decision when the newer part screws up horribly
If you object to the "when" in option "(B)", then you can object by making the part not fail, when I have the option of backing out the part choice. If you don't fail, I don't back out the part choice.
It's really very simple.
Don't want to say much, but I'd like everyone to remember that the CPU isn't the only major component in the system, and it's counterpart provides essential support for the CPU and the rest of the system, too, so if there's bugs to be worked out in it, then you really can't ship the CPUs, either. Most people don't know how extensive the testing of new silicon is and how many hundreds of people work on just that, and how much effort it takes to solve problems when the validation testing process reveals them. Just sayin'..
One word: "daughtercard".
Whine about thin form factors not allowing for it all you want, but you're wrong.
A card-edge connector where the mobo and daca sit on the same plane are not that uncommon. Barring that, use a ribbon cable.
Now you can swap parts and even interfaces. Bonus points for good form when you use established standards (like PCI-E).
It's not goddamned rocket science.
Source? That would be very surprising..
Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
amerucans r slowpokez, chinese will make it 10 times faster
And it was a disaster. Drivers just plain weren't ready. BSODs for months, epic fail. Thankfully, Apple is smarter than that.
"Apple and Microsoft use Skylake processors in new computers due to Kerby Lake unavailability"
There, a headline which explains everything you need to know about the summary and the article, and is one word shorter to boot.
Basically MS and Apple selected the CPUs and GPUs in their latest computers based on practical problems of release dates.
What makes this so interesting is that it represents a significant change in Apple's relationships with its suppliers that has evolved under Tim Cook's leadership. Before Apple would have been working with Intel or their GPU supplier much earlier in the product lifecycle and procured most of a new chip's initial supply so that Apple could be the only vendor with the new benefits for a time. The new management has decided that quarterly profit margin is more important than pushing its suppliers to advance technology.
So Apple has switched from leading edge to trailing edge.
Source: his ass.
There's no Kaby Lake in Surface Studio because suitable CPU does not exist yet.
Yeah, about 4W at full load. Is that "a lot" these days?
Also, from what (little) i've read about Kaby Lake the improvements from Skylake are minor - power consumption is in fact expected to be identical.
Because the consumers take it without complaining.
I'm guessing that something else is going on as to why the system manufacturers aren't using Skylake quad cores.. The argument regarding late in the design cycle has some merit, but not where drivers or chipsets are concerned... So that part is crap -> The same drivers will (should) work on both dual core and quad cores and the chipsets are the same - there are not different chipsets based on the number of cores (all else being equal).
So either:
1) There's some kind of (publicly undisclosed) problem with Skylake quad cores or..
2) The manufacturers don't like the pricing of the devices (not enough bang for the additional bucks) so they're collectively boycotting these devices or....
3) They don't like the power/packaging requirements and the extra cost that it introduces
It's probably #3 since capping at 16GB provides a convient excuse to solve both the extra costs problem and the power problem.
Boy even Apple's latest laptop's seem a generation behind Dell's offerings. That's always (mostly) been the case but this year it seems particularly severe. What - a Macbook with Intel Graphics for video editing - really Apple? Kind of a joke compared to nVidia and AMD mobile offerings. Only the most loyal fanboi would be able to justify that in their mind..
Somewhere in the bowels of 1 Infinite Loop I'll bet there's a mockup of a MacBook with an A10 processor. Or multiple A10 processors. Running a crude port of macOS. But because that would mean another round of porting legacy software over to the new chips it won't happen until they can get a good emulator experience. Seems to me that's where things should be headed, just basing on what's come up over the last few years.
"Well, good luck finding a judge that doesn't run a bestiality site."
You sound like the engineering version of the salesman that says "Well I've sold this feature to the client, so you make it work" regardless of how hard it does everybody else's job. Marketing will have a harder time trying to sell new features, accounting might find they can't charge as much of a premium so margins are shit, but the system designer has decided there's "no way in hell" we're replacing that CPU/GPU. Maybe if it's capacitors on a board but when it comes to headline features I expect those choices are made a couple pay grades above the system designer. Obviously you need to inform them what it'll cost in time, resources and risk and to push back when they make unreasonable demands for changes - like do we all - but I doubt it's really "that simple". Anyone who doesn't see that the interests have to be balanced probably won't be employed very long, at least not in a position where they get to decide anything.
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
That's been my experience as well. Bluetooth audio seems to be very limited. My phones 4,5,6 iPhone, my cars, Infiniti, E350, highlander - they never sound as good as when connected with wire. The bass is clearer and the sounds is just 'crisp' lol. You know what I mean.
So why is this?
You are articulate and sound very well educated. You large vocabulary is impressive. The use of a maximum of two syllable words is astute. You must have a well paid, highly technical, white collar job and are definitely not a janitor or drive thru worker. English certainly must be your first language.
Shut up
You are articulate and sound very well educated. You large vocabulary is impressive. The use of a maximum of two syllable words is astute. You must have a well paid, highly technical, white collar job and are definitely not a janitor or drive thru worker. English certainly must be your first language.
I speak and write at the level of my audience.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
Nerds need to learn more about lead-time, etc. before inventing conspiracies.
One word: "daughtercard".
Whine about thin form factors not allowing for it all you want, but you're wrong.
So because you can't get your shit together and keep you BGA layout the same, I have to make up for it by making a separate carrier card that rearranges the pins so that they are the same again on an edge connector?
It's not goddamned rocket science.
I agree: if you want a PCIe interface, then export one at the BGA level, and don't make me add cost to my product because you are too lazy to route the pins yourself.
Or, you know, I could just use your older product that I know already doesn't suck, and you can just wait a year to 10 months for the product referesh to start selling your chips.
Pick one.
Obviously you need to inform them what it'll cost in time, resources and risk and to push back when they make unreasonable demands for changes - like do we all - but I doubt it's really "that simple".
They got that: having a different BGA is going to cost them 9 months (minimum) of not selling their chip on Microsoft Surface or Apple MacBook products.
1) Moderately powerful discrete GPU options
15" MBP is a Pascal based GPU, not the most powerful but fairly powerful. 4GB at max.
2) Anti-glare LCD panels
They have been since forever. My 15" from 2013 has anti-glare stuff on the screen.
3) Ports (you know, things like USB 2.0/3.0, Ethernet, headphone/microphone jacks, DisplayPort, etc)
It has four ports that are any of those things you want plus more, with a very high rate of transfer.
4) More than 16GB of RAM :Not impossible you know. It will just cost a lot more. Since the OS is less bloated than Windows and uses memory compression tech now, it's sort of like having a 32GB Windows laptop though...
5) User replaceable batteries, OR a built-in battery of sufficient capacity this doesn't matter
It's (b) already. If you must replace it (though why you would, I don't know, I've not had to in three years of service from my current laptop) you can do that yourself with some effort, or just take it to any Apple store and have them do it on-site for a small fee.
6) Keyboards with a reasonable amount of key travel (0.5mm or whatever it is on the nMBP is hardly sufficient)
This is frankly a stupid ask, it's not the travel (at least not all), it's how the keyboard feels to use.
7) Apparently, I can add "keyboards with a reasonable amount of physical keys" to this list as well
I'm sorry, what number is greater than "infinite + 13?"
Because the TouchBar can be sets of ANY keys desired, along with all of the old FN keys (and ESC) simply by holding down the FN key that already exists unused on every Mac keyboard to date.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
A standard headphone jack (cuz bluetooth audio sounds like shit even on mediocre headphones)
iPhone 7 ships with a standard headphone jack (via dongle) or superior digital audio interface if desired (which the included WIRED headphones use)
An SDCC card (cus the vendor trumpets xx gig storage, without mentioning 3/4 xx storage is crapware you can't delete)
iOS has a low and predictable memory footprint and does not ship with crapware.
Nougat, cuz it's been out for a month or two now
From personal experience you do NOT want to get nougat in the phone, it's a bitch to clean out of ports.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Apple went with a new Skylake dual core processor that draws a lot of power -- more so than any Kaby Lake processor available. It then uses all that extra power to ramp up the speeds of the processor. Which means it is capable of pulling off speeds that can actually match those of the fastest Kaby Lake processor out there. The only downside to this decision is battery life.
Or you can wait and buy a ramped up Kaby Lake.
Yup. The only downside. In a portable device. Idiots.
Watch this Heartland Institute video
New MacBook Pros Max Out At 16GB RAM Due To Battery Life Concerns
Watch this Heartland Institute video
If Kirby inhales you, does he get a cute little Guy Fawkes mask and the ability to troll forums?