Ask Slashdot: What Training Helps Older Programmers Most?

brown.dragon is an older programmer moving to Australia. He writes: I want to start an online solution that other programmers find helpful, and right now I'm wondering if I should go with "learning new technologies" or "getting really good at the basics". Both are targeted towards giving a career boost to older programmers...

Would you like to keep in touch with the latest technologies because that's what makes it easy to get jobs? Or would you like to be really good at answering (Google/Facebook/Amazon) algorithmic interview questions?
He asks programmers looking for an online educational tool, "which of these (if any), would interest you?" So leave your answers in the comments. What training do you think would help older programmers most?

Comments

Write software

[rsilvergun]

that's you're best bet. Just keep writing software. The best way to learn is by doing.

Do older programmers even need help?

[GoodNewsJimDotCom]

Most programmers I know can pick up a new tech in about two weeks and be average at it automatically then gain mastery of it over time. There's no need to have a tutorial because there are plenty out there already.
Personally, I do so much hands on coding and software engineering that I forget the terminology they used in college. I know how to do the stuff, but I forget the definitions they used. Its kinda embarassing in an interview to not know what they're talking about because I forgot the word they use for something super basic. There's webpages for this too. Not to discourage you, but older programmers can train themselves in just a few days if they want to.
Its not like older programmers today haven't been exposed to OO or something game changing. I'd even imagine older coders can pick up new techs faster than kids out of college just because of a lifetime of experience.

Re:Do older programmers even need help?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah. You and I know it. Just tell it to HR when they find out you're over 50. : (

Re:Do older programmers even need help?

[ShanghaiBill]

Just tell it to HR when they find out you're over 50. : (

If you are over 50 and you are trying to get a job by going through HR, then there is something wrong with you.

Someone with decades of experience should have a deep network, and plenty of ex-coworkers to tap for opportunities. If they don't, that is because those co-workers don't want to work with them again. So why should I hire them?

Re:Do older programmers even need help?

[johannesg]

They don't. My Powers of Programming have not diminished as I grew older (and by now I have reached the magic age of 45, i.e. I am entitled to tell you all how I was chased by dinosaurs uphill in my youth - at least that's what employers believe anyway).

But the problem is not that you somehow become less capable technically. The problem is that you become less accepting of bullshit. When I was 25, my boss asked me to fix a problem that required me to _stand_ (not sit) in a cooling cell (4 C; 39 F) for a day because there was a program running there that needed debugging. I did it without asking questions. All around me were guys wearing warm clothing who were carrying boxes in and out of the cooling cell, but noone thought to offer me any protection from the cold. When I walked out to warm up a little every once in a while they would in fact comment on my obvious lack of stamina and suggest I work harder to stay warm (again, this was a programming job).

And a few years after that, at a different employer, they hung a computer from a crane and had me stand next to it for a few days because that was the only way we could reach the relevant hardware - although moving it to a desk would only have been a few hours worth of work. I stood right next to a 10m drop for day, without any kind of safety in place - one wrong step and I would have fallen about 3 floors down.

Would I still do these things? No f'ing way! It's not that I _cannot_ stand for a day, or that my body feels the cold more, or that I'm scared of heights now, it's simply that I no longer think of myself as the lowest peon in the organisation - if they want my services, they need to at least marginally accomodate my needs as well. Also, I discovered somewhere along the line that my job is essentially a mercenary position: I rent out my skills for money, but there isn't any loyalty either way beyond the short term. There are in fact things in life I rate higher than spending hours in the office.

Employers very much prefer someone who only cares for proving himself to the big bad world, and is happy to do idiotic jobs without asking any questions - and has those things as the highest priority in life. Those people are generally speaking below 40, so someone over 40 finds it harder to get a job. And no amount of training or online courses will change this.

Re:Do older programmers even need help?

[jandersen]

The thing is - as an older programmer (which I am very much) it is no longer about programming. but more about other skills, like knowing frameworks and design patterns to a high level of expertise, leadership or even (heaven forbid!) management. I have been listening to a lot of science podcasts recently (not the "Aw, look at that, ain't it awesome" kind of thing, but proper science; they do exist) and one thing that stands out is the growing need for what is loosely called Big Data: the handling and analysis of huge amounts of data. One that I heard about this morning is the experiments they do at CERN - apparently they have something like a million proton-proton collissions per second to analyse in real time, and they expect to find 1 Higgs boson per hour - or was it day or week? Both a huge amount of data, very few events of interest and very little time to analyse it in because there is no realistic way they can store that much. And of course, CERN are not the only ones that produce vast amounts of data - all sciences do, from biology to medicine to physics to just about anything. When you reach my advanced age, you begin to have an outlook on life that makes real science look very, very attractive, I think.

Re:Do older programmers even need help?

[RabidReindeer]

I've seen HR reject because I had experience with similar products from other vendors. I've seen HR reject because my experience was with a newer verson of a product.

HR is brain-dead when it comes to understanding technical qualifications and abilities. And they don't care. There's always someone willing to lie and claim to be a perfect fit despite the fact that HR routinely publishes laundry lists which are statistically unlikely to have anyone on the planet be a point-for-point match.

Re:Do older programmers even need help?

[angel'o'sphere]

Some people are not good at networking.

And frankly it goes both ways, asking an ex colleague about job opportunities (when I'm vacant) is probably the least thing I ever would do.

Also, it is probably a culture problem, but in Germany it is often impossible to bypass HR. So a network would not help. And another culture problem is "friendship". My colleagues are not my friends. Regardless of job I had. I never would invite one to my birthday e.g. And for the same reason: I don't see any point to stay in contact with a colleague after he or I leave the company. Sorry, I'm a developer, not a marketing droid or Dilbert like manager who *needs* a network and is nothing without it. I don't nourish colleagues to have a network, for that I have linkedin and Xing.

If that makes me "non hire able" for you ... I wonder what else you miss :D

Re:Do older programmers even need help?

[johannesg]

That lack of enthousiasm is not because we have done it for 30 years, it is because we have put in that effort many times in the past, and received nothing in return for it. I've done my share of heroics - and getting a pat on the back was usually already too much. Financial compensation? Never. Bonus for job well done, above and beyond? Never. Time compensation? Only under the direst of circumstances. Additional carreer prospects? Don't make me laugh - they know I'm a lousy manager and an excellent engineer, so they'll never willingly move me out of engineering.

You are getting some grief from the other posters, but in truth there is nothing that separates you from so many other bosses: you think of engineers not as people, but as tools. And in return they think of themselves not as valued members of the team, but as mercenaries.

Re:Do older programmers even need help?

[Anonymous Coward]

I, sir, am a bona-fide computer geek. I don't have a deep social network. That would require that I actually be social! Did you want to hire a social person or would you rather hire someone who isn't social, but gets the job done?

And when I get laid off, the entire department scatters to the winds and never contacts each other again.

Re:Do older programmers even need help?

[mwvdlee]

I want design problems to keep them up at night.

The reality is probably that your personality flaws and the problems they cause are keeping them up at night.

Design problems are fun for everybody, regardless of age.

Dealing with easily avoidable problems caused by dipshits in decission-making positions ignoring or even overriding rational solutions is fun only for those people young enough to not yet have learned the reality of idiot bosses.

You won't believe how many times I've encountered non-issues labeled as "critical" by a manager (because not being able to showcase a feature nobody needs to a new prospective client is somehow "critical") which was promptly forgotten about by same manager a day later.

The only difference is that old engineers have learned to focus on getting stuff done instead of jumping through whatever latest bullshit hoops.

Re:Do older programmers even need help?

[WalrusSlayer]

If you are over 50 and you are trying to get a job by going through HR, then there is something wrong with you.

Someone with decades of experience should have a deep network, and plenty of ex-coworkers to tap for opportunities. If they don't, that is because those co-workers don't want to work with them again. So why should I hire them?

Unless they've spent a large chunk of their later career keeping their small startup venture alive and generating revenue, effectively keeping them cloistered while they apply their skill set. Yeah, I've got a small network from when things were more robust and I had to hire out some of the engineering work, but most was done by yours truly. The one thing I could have done better was keep more of those contacts alive, as a lot of them are pretty stale. But that time period coincided with kids showing up on the scene, which triaged that pretty far down the list.

So sure, the side-gigs I've gotten over the past 5-6 years have been solely through my small network, that's a good thing. But as the startup slowly winds down, my small network is not as lucrative as I'd like it to be. I haven't had to go the head-hunter route yet, but that's probably the next stop on this train.

All that said, when/if I'm to the point where I'm considering opportunities that involve an HR dept, then I'd say things would be in a pretty desperate state

Re: Do older programmers even need help?

[Anonymous Coward]

From a past job:
Peons like worked very long hours to meet a milestone.
Result:
VP : 100k + bonus
Director: 50k bonus
Peons: hotdog lunch in the parking lot, one hotdog per person only please!

Re:Do older programmers even need help?

[GLMDesigns]

Not everyone networks well. You can be a good programmer and a poor networker.

Re:Do older programmers even need help?

[TheRaven64]

Some people are not good at networking

Networking is a form of communication. If they're not good at this form, what others are they bad at? Code monkeys are cheap and plentiful, people who can communicate their designs, collaborate with others, and work on a team where everyone benefits from the specialist expertise that each individual has are rare. The latter are the ones worth hiring.

Also, it is probably a culture problem, but in Germany it is often impossible to bypass H

Bypassing means different things. If a company wants to hire you, then they'll put out a job ad that has a checklist of things for HR to approve that happen to be exactly the same things that you have on your CV.

My colleagues are not my friends. Regardless of job I had. I never would invite one to my birthday e.g. And for the same reason: I don't see any point to stay in contact with a colleague after he or I leave the company.

Maintaining a professional relationship with someone doesn't mean maintaining a close personal relationship with them. Can you name 10 people that you've worked with in the last decade who you'd want to hire? Most competent people know which of their coworkers are also competent and which aren't. If they're given the choice, they'd rather work with someone competent. If you moved jobs, who would you want to come with you and who would you want to leave behind? If none of the people you've worked with recently seem competent to you then either you're in a job below your ability or you're the incompetent one on the team.

Re: Do older programmers even need help?

[xtal]

If you know who Knuth IS, you're better than 90% of the programmers out there..

They know it already

[tomp]

Older programmers know the basics and they know how to learn new technologies. Matter of fact, that's precisely what they know. Those who don't move into management before they become "older programmers".

There's always a need for better learning tools. But tools for "old programmers" doesn't make any more sense than tools for female coders.

Wrong question

[Snotnose]

You should ask "I've got this bunch of folks with 10-40 years experience. How do I make them most productive?"

I've been around for, jeez, 38 years now. I'm really good at C, C++, Java, RTOS systems, embedded systems, device drivers, talking to hardware in general, and meeting avoidance. I'm not good at "team building", "Agile development", "Synergy", "open office", "ping pong", "free cokes".

Tell me what you want me to do. I'll give you feedback on how reasonable your desires are. I listen to you, you listen to me, you give me a nice quiet place to work, and stuff happens.

Re:Wrong question

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

But... How will the product owner stay in the loop as you work through your backlog items so they know what to put in the plan for you to do during the next sprint?

And what do you mean you just turned off your phone, mail, Slack, Basecamp, Skype and HipChat?

Oh, you just established the requirements and then built something to meet them? Already? Never mind, then.

Re: Wrong question

[Zontar The Mindless]

And you sound like dead wood. No-one wants to do your work for you while you worry about "fitting in socially".

Re:Wrong question

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

You also probably wouldn't use Basecamp, Slack and HipChat together.

Apparently spotting sarcasm is also a skill that changes over time. :-/

Re:Give up

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

The simple fact is that as we age we become less able to pick up new things easily.

I've yet to see much evidence of that. I see a trend for more experienced people to be less willing to learn lots of new things all the time, but that's partly because they better at recognising potential. They know that a lot of the heavily hyped new things in the tech industry aren't really new at all and/or probably won't last five minutes. They know there will be plenty of time to learn the ones that do have staying power, if and when they need them. In the meantime, they tend to prioritise using and learning those things that will actually help to get the job done or done better. This, grasshopper, is the difference between knowledge and wisdom. :-)

Re:Give up

[arth1]

I find that older people are better at picking up new things. They have a lot more experience and context than someone still wet behind the ears, and if old enough, are also used to figure out things on their own, because there was no training. In fact, they may have a harder time with training than without. Give them a man page, not a teacher.

The main problem I see is letting older people do something new. They tend to be experts at things that requires experience, and which is vital for the business. So they aren't allowed to move away from that.

Re:Patience with the yonge ones :-)

[FryingLizard]

Javascript baffles many "older" programmers, usually it's something along the lines of "Why the fuck is this godawful shit-show of a language so widely used?"

Been doing this for 30 years

[EmperorOfCanada]

I am shocked at the number of 20 somethings that are a decade or more out of date. I am not talking about jumping on the latest and greatest, node.go or whatever, but simply aren't using the latest version (often off by years) of their existing tools. I am not talking religious wars such as C++ vs Java, but programmers who aren't using testing, not using any code analysis tools, not using patterns properly, using globals like they were bicyclist in a performance enhancing drug mart, and all the usual bad practices.

Then to make it worse they will use "modern" techniques like they are some magic spell. If you way-over apply the technique, then it will magically make up for the lousy choice in just about everything else. Let's use multi inheritance OOP on our single SQL call to the single table in the single database. Or let's use the factory pattern for what should have been a single function that takes one parameter.

I am not leaving older programmers out of this. Usually there are subtle differences. They don't realize that things have massively changed in the last 10 years. Threads aren't bad, the GPU can do stuff, disk is pretty much free, don't conserve memory in your single purpose server with 32GB and your application is only using 2.

My advice for any programmer, young or old, is to be flexible. A great choice may not really be the great choice, it may be an illusion. So be prepared to change. And experiment. Lots and lots of experiments. Try out new languages. Try out new datastores. Try out new OSs. Try out new IDEs. If you see the cool kids doing something that requires a fundamental new skill that you don't have, then learn the fundamental new skill. With ML you need linear algebra and some calculus to really get to the meat of the subject. So learn the libraries and if they seem like your future, learn the fundamentals.

To be a great programmer you have to be both a specialist and a Renaissance man. So nail something like C++ networking(as just one specialist example), but make sure you can configure a database, set up a server, program in Python, etc.

Then there are the domains of knowledge. This is where it can get tricky. Do you perfect the game industry, or do you jump from games, to banking, to engine control units? We all know that having a diverse experience will really help. I am dead certain that what you learn in games could easily bring some wildly creative approaches to engine control units; yet the HR types are "How many years have you been working with ECUs?" I have successfully leapt more than once from pretty fundamental tech to completely different fundamental tech. Not easy, but very worth it.

When to leave

[penguinoid]

How to recognize when a company quietly labels you an "older programmer" rather than an "experienced programmer".

Let's define old

[hughbar]

I had my 66th birthday, a week ago. So, officially in the UK, I'm retired.

However, I still program and still learn new stuff, at the moment a lot of technology around the Raspberry Pi. I'm also a philosophy undergraduate and, as such, I have to do formal (propositional and predicate) logic, so I'm refreshing my Prolog a little, because we're going to do a workshop for some of the other students.

I don't consider myself to be particularly bright, but I do enjoy technology (and learning, in general) so I'm self-motivated by curiosity. My feeling is that motivation will probably matter more than age, if the person isn't somewhat engaged, they probably are not going to learn. It's one of the big dangers of doing something just because it's well-paid. I've been lucky, working at something I like and it's pretty well-paid as well.

What Training Helps Older Programmers Most?

[MindPrison]

What Training Helps Older Programmers Most?

Here's your answer: Stop thinking of yourself as older!

When we get older, there are several hurdles we need to pass, one of them is our mindset. If we see ourselves as "older" instead of more experienced, we will often display this trough our actions and our talk with others. People will then also perceive us as "older" rather than experienced.

If youre the "go-getter" type that will rater spend time solving tasks and problems than spend time on age related issues, you will soon forget age. Sure, the occasional aging symptoms like back pains and other irritating signs of age will remind you, but if you try to stay healthy and fit - you need not remind yourself of this and others will take no notice of your "age".

Im in my 50s now, and people often remark how young I am, why? Its my attitude. I get things done, I have fun with my coworkers, and I totally forget my age. In my mind Im not a day over 20.

Those companies who miss out just because of ageism - will lose big money on it, not to mention sour up their own work-culture as everyone will be afraid of becoming older rather than embrance this valuable experience. Those companies have a tendency to fail in other areas too.

Your best training - is your mindset.

Ninjitsu training

[thisisauniqueid]

Apparently to code with kids these days you need to deserve the title of "ninja". So I recommend ninjitsu training.

Team facilitation and project management skills

[Bearhouse]

Based on my observation of "older", (I'd prefer to use "senior" or "experienced") programmers, I'd say they fall into two camps:

(a) The guys with 20+ years of experience, who is comfortable with his technical competence and does not want to move into management. They stay current on what they need automatically, and get the job done.
(b) The guys with 1 years experience 20 times. They stopping learning a long time ago, and you cannot help them.

So the first group is your target; what I've often observed is that their meeting and PM skills could be improved; hence their contributions (direct and indirect : how often have you seen a "senior guy" make a quiet suggestion that headed-off disaster?) are persistently under-estimated...

Weightlifting and regular walks

[mi]

What Training Helps Older Programmers Most?

Overall decline in health is, what threatens aging professionals the most — not ignorance of the exciting new technology of the week. Learning a particular tool has never been especially valuable — education is supposed to teach you one thing, primarily: how to learn new things on your own. If you are a developer already, you must've mastered that long ago.

So, strength training and regular walks and/or yoga (while still legal).

Re:As an older programmer...

[Big Hairy Ian]

As an older programmer if I need to learn a technology I learn it! The problem I face is the amount of ageism in this industry! Once you're over 40 most firms just don't seem to be interested.

Re:As an older programmer...

[hey!]

Same is true in my experience. It doesn't matter what your record of accomplishment is either -- in fact it's almost a handicap to have an impressive resume when you're older.

One thing I noticed is when it started to get harder to get interviews, when I did get an interview everyone would seem excited about bringing me on ... except the hiring manager. The first time it happened I thought it was a fluke, but after it happened a number of times I realized: nobody wants to supervise someone with more experience than they have.

So my advice to older programmers is: don't put your hopes in gaining even more expertise. It works against you. Start your own business, or get training in some other kind of job.

Re:As an older programmer...

[cayenne8]

So my advice to older programmers is: don't put your hopes in gaining even more expertise. It works against you. Start your own business, or get training in some other kind of job.

Get into contracting, where experience is very much valued.

If you have a clean record, get into GOVERNMENT CONTRACTING....you can make good money there, and contracts are long lasting (years at a time).

Do make sure to incorporate yourself first.