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Open Source Pioneer Munich Debates Report That Suggests Abandoning Linux for Windows 10 (techrepublic.com)

As an open-source software pioneer, Munich spent years moving away from Windows, but now politicians are debating a report that suggests the city could eventually abandon Linux. A report on TechRepublic adds: If the authority ruling Germany's third largest city backs proposals to make Windows 10 and Microsoft Office available across the council, it would be a significant step away from open-source software for an organization once seen as its champion. Over a nine-year period starting in 2004, the council moved about 15,000 staff from using Windows and Office to LiMux -- a custom version of the Ubuntu desktop OS -- and other open source software. At the time, Munich was one of the largest organizations to reject Windows, and Microsoft took the city's leaving so seriously that then CEO Steve Ballmer flew to Munich to meet the mayor. Now a report commissioned by current mayor Dieter Reiter to help determine the future of IT at the council has outlined a project to make Windows 10 and Microsoft Office available to all departments, and give staff the choice about whether to use Windows or LiMux.

15 of 176 comments (clear)

  1. It's not surprising... by HerculesMO · · Score: 5, Interesting

    In an enterprise there are two big costs... licensing, and support.

    Linux the cost of support is pretty high -- for models like Red Hat the cost often is higher than Windows because you don't get as high a per-seat discount. Then there are the other ancillary costs like productivity, accessibility, data governance, etc... which are harder to materialize but also make an impact.

    Ultimately most organizations use Windows because it meets the needs for those things that are ancillary while also staying competitive with the two larger costs of support and licensing.

    This isn't a religious conversation much as Slashdot would like it to be; I am a big fan of the best tool for the job and on the desktop sad to say, Linux still doesn't do the job. Server side the uptick is huge, which is also why Microsoft products like SQL Server or .NET Core can literally run on Linux, and are supported in Docker. Microsoft saw the light because being agnostic is financially rewarding, and lock-in doesn't work. But the desktop? Still the realm of Windows.

    --
    The price is always right if someone else is paying.
    1. Re:It's not surprising... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      > Linux the cost of support is pretty high [...]

      I think there are other forces at work. From TFA

      "Accenture was chosen to co-author a report assessing the use of Microsoft software, [when] the consultancy runs a joint venture with Microsoft called Avanade, which helps businesses implement Microsoft technologies"

      Hmmm. If I ask my butcher, he'll say: "Meat is good for you, oh yeah. Eat more meat!"

    2. Re:It's not surprising... by ninthbit · · Score: 4, Interesting

      How is the desktop support much of an issue? Enterprise support for databases and other server services can get very complex and I can acknowledge that a real TCO case could be made. But desktop? To me that's a simple, you have a problem, let's wipe you and reimage. I can't imagine a case where the costs difference exceed the license expenses.

      Now if every crybaby in management can't handle learning LibreOffice over Word/Excel, thats another problem..... Maybe get smarter people? It's Germany, they have plenty.

    3. Re:It's not surprising... by gmack · · Score: 4, Informative

      RTFA! They had used a custom version of Ubuntu so they were likely doing the support themselves with a custom setup tuned to their environment and on that level (15 000 desktops) it was likely cheaper. The larger problem is: What happens when someone sends you a document that your version of OpenOffice doesn't like or you need software that doesn't run on Linux? Libre Office file compatibility still isn't 100% (mostly there compared to word, chokes on PowerPoint sides and doesn't do VBA ever)

      And that is where it comes down to use cases. Linux has a lower total cost on the desktop when it does everything you need it to. But if you need something that Linux doesn't have software for, the lower cost just doesn't matter.

    4. Re:It's not surprising... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What you do when people pester you with unreadable proprietary documents? You tell them to fuck off, until they have learned to install another program which is free, and produce a readable document with it.

      This is not some two bit company struggling to make ends meet, if you want to tell them something in a document, you make sure they can read it. You do NOT get to dictate what software they should or shouldn't use.

    5. Re:It's not surprising... by war4peace · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What you do when people pester you with unreadable proprietary documents? You tell them to fuck off, until they have learned to install another program which is free, and produce a readable document with it.

      And this attitude is exactly why Desktop Linux hovers at around 2% or wherever it is today.
      Being smarter than your customer is one thing, shoving that in their face with a smug, asshole attitude is a totally different thing.

      Forcing everyone else to adapt to your tiny little world will end up with you being alone and ignored in your tiny little world.

      --
      ...gis sdrawkcab (usually not responding to ACs; don't bother posting as AC)
    6. Re:It's not surprising... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      A "custom distribution" can be so little as Debian with a local repository and patches to a few dozen packages.

      Yes, I know how Ubuntu and Debian work, as someone who does debian packaging as part of his job. And I also know that "patches to a few dozen packages," as well as managing changes coming in from an upstream distribution, could easily be a full time job for me. So again - you're still looking at requiring hiring engineering talent & running internal infrastructure and resources, for your "free" operating system. That makes it "not free."

      That isn't all too hard to pull off, if you have two or three competent people.

      Again: headcount = not free. Administering Windows for 120 users probably wouldn't require more than 1 or 2 people, too, and probably you could hire IT staff a lot cheaper than you could handle a couple developers capable of customizing an entire repo. You can debate relative costs, but you cannot get away with claiming that "Linux = $0" and "Windows = $INFINITY" when you're comparing costs. There are specific costs associated with both. You can pay less on Linux licensing, but you're probably going to pay more in the headcount needed to support it, because you need people with deeper technical skills. You can pay more on Windows licensing, and get your headcount a lot cheaper for support, because your Windows desktop support can fall back on Microsoft support when they hit something beyond their skill level.

    7. Re: It's not surprising... by Anne+Thwacks · · Score: 4, Informative
      Just this week I had a government subcontractor send me an Excel spreadsheet that did not work in LibreOffice.

      I politely emailed him back saying that I had a problem with it, because it was in a non-standard, MS proprietary, format and please could he send it in the ISO standard ODF format instead. He did. It worked.

      MS formats don't even transfer from one computer to another if you have different printers. Windows is NOT fit for prime time. Its just that some people don't know, and a whole lot of the others were bribed.

      --
      Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
  2. Let me guess... by 110010001000 · · Score: 4, Funny

    ...the report was funded by Microsoft Europe.

  3. TRANSLATION.... by Lumpy · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Microsoft made them a deal they could not pass up. Betting it was gobs of free licenses for all microsoft products and possibly even hardware.

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    1. Re:TRANSLATION.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I still haven't got any training for using the ribbon. I still quite often hear people swear with passion when using MS Office. I'm not saying that LibreOffice is better, but somehow training is not needed when MS changes an interface but it becomes an issue if the software is not made by MS. Why is that?

  4. The grass is always greener by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 4, Insightful
    This is like the time a coworker's husband had a side business, and I was supporting his Mac for free. His buds were big PC fans, so every time he had a problem his buds would say it was because he was using a Mac (with Quicken) Finally, after he started bitching at me because I sent him down the wrong path, I told him he should get a PC. Another guy at work bought his Mac off him, and he bought one of those better PC's. In the end, he had more problems, and didn't get the free tech support from me any more. His computer buds didn't supply it either.

    Listen up people. No matter what platform or OS you use, there is going to be someone who tells you you were making a mistake. That's just life. And if these folks in Germany think Linux is bad, they should just switch over to W10.

    --
    The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
  5. Microsoft Germany Headquarters by gmf · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Of course this has nothing to do with the fact that Microsoft just moved its German Headquarters with about 2000 employees from Unterschleißheim (near Munich) to Schwabing (in Munich), and is now presumably a major tax payer in the city.

  6. Re:I can see why by Tough+Love · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I haven't touched MS Office in many years. I rely on LibreOffice (formerly OpenOffice) for my office-type needs. It does all the spreadsheeting and document preparation I need, way more than I need, actually. I get free lifetime updates. When I need to communicate with inmates on the Microsoft prison island, PDF works fine. When I need to collaborate on documents, Googledocs. Whatever. Microsoft is just irrelevant these days, some folks haven't gotten the memo yet.

    --
    When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
  7. Munich's mayor is closely related to MS by DarkDust · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Dieter Reiter has attacked the Limux project from day one he was in office, starting to spread FUD like his inability to access his mobile mail was due to Limux flaws instead of workflow issues. His head of IT publicly denied Reiter's claims and refuted them. Mr. Reiter has "outed" himself as a Microsoft fan in the past (before he became mayor) and was personally involved in moving Microsoft Germany's headquarters from the Munich suburb to the city of Munich itself. So this is more of a personal/political issue. Munich's IT staff still thinks Limux is a good solution and luckily there is opposition to Reiters FUD in the town hall. Going back to Microsoft would be very costly but now that Microsoft has its HQ in Munich, I'm pretty sure the lobbying has taken up steam and there's going to be "deals benefiting both sides" here.