Uranium-Filled 'Lost Nuke' Missing Since 1950 May Have Been Found (bbc.com)

Although the U.S. government "does not believe the bomb contains active nuclear material," schwit1 shares this report from the BBC: A commercial diver may have discovered a lost decommissioned U.S. nuclear bomb off the coast of Canada. Sean Smyrichinsky was diving for sea cucumbers near British Columbia when he discovered a large metal device that looked a bit like a flying saucer. The Canadian Department of National Defence believes it could be a "lost nuke" from a US B-36 bomber that crashed in the area in 1950.... The plane was on a secret mission to simulate a nuclear strike and had a real Mark IV nuclear bomb on board to see if it could carry the payload required...

The American military says the bomb was filled with lead, uranium and TNT but no plutonium, so it wasn't capable of a nuclear explosion... Several hours into its flight, its engines caught fire and the crew had to parachute to safety... The crew put the plane on autopilot and set it to crash in the middle of the ocean, but three years later, its wreckage was found hundreds of kilometers inland.
The crew says they dumped their bomb-like cargo into the ocean first to avoid a detonation on land.

Comments

WTF?

[YuppieScum]

You fly a test mission, and do it using a "dummy" bomb that contains TNT and uranium???

Is it just me, or does this sound like complete bollocks?

Of course, actually telling everyone, "Oopsy, we *lost* a live nuke" would be quite embarrassing...

Re:WTF?

[wonkey_monkey]

Uranium is nearly twice as dense as lead. The test run was apparently to "see if it could carry the payload required" which means you'd want the right weight/size/shape. They took the most dangerous bit out, at least.

Re:WTF?

[Richard_at_work]

When you get to the point of heavy metals (such as the uranium in this instance), you start running into problems with simulating stuff made from them - you cant have a precise physical replica because the weight will be off, and quite often you cant add more mass because then you have something that is physically larger than the original.

In aircraft, weight and balance issues can affect performance considerably - so when you need to run simulation flights to test performance you couldnt really get a truly accurate result if you used a replica as it would either be too light or it would put weight in the wrong place on the aircraft due to the increase in size. You cant add ballast outside the weapon for the same reasons.

So the only way to run these tests back then was to use a proper weapon. Of course the core was removed, but on these aircraft they were always removed for take off, landing and cruise - a crew member literally had to insert the core into the weapon en route because the safety systems were still not trusted at that point, so keeping the core on board but separate would still result in an accurate test flight.

Re:WTF?

[pushing-robot]

The bomb would contain a layer of depleted uranium surrounding the plutonium core. Depleted uranium is not particularly radioactive and can't go critical on it's own, but assists the plutonium reaction.

Re:WTF?

[Anonymous Coward]

Uranium is a tamper that surrounds the plutonium pit. Removing the pit renders the bomb inoperable.

Re:WTF?

[pushing-robot]

Edit: Other sites are reporting this was a dummy bomb packed with lead. No idea why a dummy would have uranium, maybe BBC is in error.

In any case it wouldn't be the fissile variety. Depleted uranium is still toxic, though.

Re:WTF?

[Anonymous Coward]

Is it just me... blah blah

It's just you. Simulating bombing missions naturally uses equipment that is as real as possible. Military aircraft routinely fly and test live ordinance. In this case — while testing a new systems — they wisely substituted the most dangerous bit with equivalent but inert mass. All perfectly reasonable if you can think your way out of a damp paper bag.

Re:WTF?

[hey!]

The uranium in this case was unenriched, and incapable of going critical. It was part of the device's "tamper" -- a kind of shield that delayed the expansion of the material in the pit during explosion, thus boosting efficiency. It was used mainly for its phsyical density, not its nuclear properties.

The mark IV bomb was designed to be transported and loaded on the aircraft without the "physics package", which contained the actual fissile material. As such this particular bomb is no more dangerous than a small conventional bomb. There is no particular reason not to use one in a training exercise.

Which is not to say there weren't some hair-raising incidents over the years. The closest we came to a real disaster was the Goldsboro incident, in which two thermonuclear weapons were ejected from a disintegrating airplane with nearly all of their safety mechanisms too damaged to operate.

Re:WTF?

[NEDHead]

It has been a while since I built a early version of a plutonium fission bomb, but if I recall correctly, the depleted uranium jacket was there as an inertial mass to help concentrate the implosion energy inward. It was not directly involved in the fission reaction.

Re:WTF?

[meerling]

It makes no sense to use a simulated nuke shape that actually has a radioactive, dangerous, and expensive restricted component when it can easily be simulated by replacing it with a safe, inert, and cheap substance.

You get the volume of the entire device, the weight, and balance correct. You don't give a flying F about what the actual guts are, as you aren't building a real nuclear weapon, just something that can do the physical not explody testing part, like sitting around and dropping with the same characteristics.

So yeah, the entire story sounds like total b.s. crafted by someone that doesn't know which way to go to get their head out of their ass and assumes the public is too stupid to pick up on the stink in that story.

Re:WTF?

[Anonymous Coward]

The Uranium/Lead as a percentage of the total weight is lost in the noise, equivalent weight to a few seconds worth of fuel.

Re:WTF?

[Antique Geekmeister]

> when it can easily be simulated by replacing it with a safe, inert, and cheap substance.

When manufacturing uranium, one creates a _very_ large amount of depleted uranium. It would make a great deal of sense to let the weapon makers practice casting, molding, and shaping with the much safer depleted uranium. After all that practice, I'm sure several complete or nearly complete mockups were left over, and could very easily be repurposed for cargo testing.

Re:WTF?

[SEE]

Read the summary again. It wasn't a "dummy" bomb, it was a real Mark IV nuclear bomb.

What it didn't have was the fissile core loaded. Which is exactly what would be expected; the Mark IV was designed to have the core loaded into the bomb by the aircrew during the flight.

So, it certainly wasn't a dummy bomb; it was a real Mark IV, with the normal uranium and TNT in the casing. But it almost certainly wasn't a live nuclear bomb, because there would have been no reason at all for the plutonium core to have been loaded on the plane, and even if the plutonium was on the plane, no reason at all for the aircrew to load the plutonium into the bomb.

Real bomb and no plutonium core.

Re:WTF?

[Baloroth]

It makes no sense to use a simulated nuke shape that actually has a radioactive, dangerous, and expensive restricted component when it can easily be simulated by replacing it with a safe, inert, and cheap substance.

They removed the plutonium core (which is radioactive and expensive), and only had natural uranium, which on its own is none of those things (well, technically it's radioactive, but only barely. You could eat it without getting radiation poisoning. It'd kill you from heavy metal poisoning, but not radiation). Hell, you can buy it off Amazon. It's also almost twice as dense as lead, so you can't simulate it with lead (and anything close in density is fantastically rare and expensive, like platinum and gold). Not sure why they'd have TNT inside, though maybe they wanted to make sure it wouldn't explode during the transit process.

Re:WTF?

[Gussington]

so keeping the core on board but separate would still result in an accurate test flight.

So this highly radioactive core is still at the bottom of the ocean somewhere?

Re:WTF?

[Richard_at_work]

Yes. There are dozens of these things around - and some of them arent at the bottom of an ocean, some of them are "missing" on land.

Re:WTF?

[K. S. Kyosuke]

The uranium in this case was unenriched, and incapable of going critical. It was part of the device's "tamper" -- a kind of shield that delayed the expansion of the material in the pit during explosion, thus boosting efficiency. It was used mainly for its phsyical density, not its nuclear properties.

Technically, a uranium tamper is still fissioned with fast neutron flux, so it is partly there for its nuclear properties, isn't it?

Re:WTF?

[chill]

Boy, are you going to be surprised when you figure out how the Soviet Union used to dispose of nuclear reactors from ships and submarines. At least with the U.S. one it was an accident.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decommissioning_of_Russian_nuclear-powered_vessels

A Russian government report acknowledged in March 1993, that "during the period of 1965 to 1988 the Northern Fleet had dumped four reactor compartments with eight reactors (three containing damaged fuel) in the Abrosimov Gulf in 20 to 40 meters of water." Six other compartments, containing nine reactors in all, had also been dumped into the water in the 1960s and 1970s.

Re:WTF?

[serviscope_minor]

Uranium is nearly twice as dense as lead, so a lead bomb wouldn't make a hugely accurate dummy.

Re:WTF?

[hey!]

Technically, a uranium tamper is still fissioned with fast neutron flux, so it is partly there for its nuclear properties, isn't it?

Yes, the tamper does fission a little and adds somewhat to the bomb's yield, which is why I said "mainly". I didn't want to obscure the important point, which is that that the uranium in this bomb cannot be made to explode by any means without installing the pit.

"Natural uranium" (meaning unenriched) is reasonably safe to handle; if you look up the MSDS for natural uranium metal the main hazards are ingestion and inhalation. You can handle it with disposable gloves.

Re:WTF?

[Jzanu]

Wrong. An airplane is not a boat. Especially in maneuvering for normal flight the weight is critical. Ever think WHY the engines caught fire? They were pulling and dealing with more than they were designed for.

Re:WTF?

[blindseer]

Technically, a uranium tamper is still fissioned with fast neutron flux, so it is partly there for its nuclear properties, isn't it?

That's my understanding as well. It's the choice of materials for this outer casing that, as far as I can tell, is what separates a high yield three stage device (uranium), a low or medium yield two stage device (lead or steel), and enhanced radiation weapons (AKA a neutron bomb or salted bomb, using some other material).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Re:WTF?

[nojayuk]

Technically, a uranium tamper is still fissioned with fast neutron flux

Not quite. Uranium-238, the main component of depleted and also naturally occurring uranium doesn't fission. It WILL breed up into Pu-239 through neutron capture via an intermediate product and that will fission and produce energy if hit by neutrons.

Natural uranium has about 0.6% U-235 which will fission so it's a better tamper than depleted uranium which is usually about 0.2%-0.3% or so, providing more bang for your buck as it only takes one neutron to cause an atom of U-235 to fission whereas the U-238->Pu-239 breeding and fission process requires two neutrons. This all has to happen in a short period of time, too before the expanding bubble of fissionable material gets too large.

Re: WTF?

[Anonymous Coward]

That's exactly what the depleted shell is there for: to facilitate the direction of the explosion inward toward the core.

Re:WTF?

[infolation]

"I don't know what's worse. The fact that this has happened, or the fact that we have a name for it."

Re:WTF?

[blindseer]

Depleted uranium is still toxic, though.

And lead isn't?

My question isn't why it would be packed with uranium, since uranium is rather unique in it's density and there is little else that would be of equivalent density and be as cheap. My question is, why would a dummy bomb be packed with TNT?

If it's packed with TNT then it is most certainly a live bomb. It might not be a nuclear weapon at this point but it can still "go boom" with considerable force if given a cross look.

As I understand nuclear weapon design the use of DU as a casing is beneficial for two reasons. First, it can provide enough mass to contain the force of the TNT explosive long enough to detonate the "pit" (nuclear primary) and not be too large to carry in a bomber. Second, even DU will fission if exposed to a "fast" neutron flux (where "fast" is defined by nuclear physics and in abundance during fission). This makes a nuclear weapon small, powerful, and "light" by 1950s weapons standards.

The presence of DU in a "dummy" nuclear weapon makes sense to me since it is a near requisite to make a proper stand-in for a real weapon without needing exceedingly exotic (for the military anyway) materials. TNT on the other hand is not terribly unique in the same way. I don't know how dense TNT is but I would imagine there are a lot of off the shelf stuff that would be close in density, chemical composition, etc. and still not "go boom" if in an aircraft crash or something.

Re:WTF?

[blindseer]

So this highly radioactive core is still at the bottom of the ocean somewhere?

If this was in fact a training mission then the radioactive core would not likely be on board. That is a very expensive and militarily sensitive part of the weapon. The rest of the weapon, the nearly 5 ton case, while still an expensive and sensitive piece of equipment is not nearly as easily lost, stolen, or capable of being simulated for a training mission.

Also, the plutonium used in the core has a half life of over 24000 years, not something many would consider "highly radioactive". Such material is regularly handled with only gloved hands, which is what the crew would have to do to arm the weapon while in flight.

Re:WTF?

[blindseer]

It makes no sense to use a simulated nuke shape that actually has a radioactive, dangerous, and expensive restricted component when it can easily be simulated by replacing it with a safe, inert, and cheap substance.

It makes sense if you have an inventory of hundreds of these weapons and you want to keep their specifications a secret.

A few questions for you. Who would build this "dummy" bomb? What would it be made of to keep the same size, weight, and shape? How far would someone want to deviate from the real thing in training or testing when considering that the success or failure could mean lives lost?

I'll answer the last question first, when doing testing like this they'd want to have something as real as possible since this is a matter of survival for future flight crews. To make this they'd want to use as much of the real deal material to keep the mission as close to a real deal mission as possible. The people that make the dummy would have to be the same people that make the real weapons for matters of security, and they will have access to the real stuff to make it.

My guess is that this "dummy" was one of two kinds of devices. It may have been a real deal bomb with all the important parts removed for the mission. The core was not likely on board, and if there was a core it would likely be a dummy device since the weight difference of that is not near as critical as the 5 ton case. It may also have been a "dummy" bomb in the sense it was a real bomb that failed during the inspection to certify it as a weapon fit for the inventory. It'd be stripped down of anything critical and be inert in many but not all respects. It'd still have to be guarded as a real weapon since in the hands of an enemy it could be used for all kinds of mayhem. Since it still matched the fit/form/function in many respects compared to a functional weapon it would be kept for missions like this one.

If you want to see something "expensive" then consider the expense of designing, producing, and testing, a handful of "dummy" weapons when there is an ample inventory of the real thing. When it comes to being radioactive consider that depleted uranium has a half life of billions of years, emits an alpha particle upon decay (which is easily blocked with a piece of paper), and is covered by the heavy steel casing. And then calling this "dangerous"? Of course it's dangerous. It's 5 tons and covered with steel armor, this is not something to be handled, ahem... "lightly". A simulation device would have to also weigh 5 tons and be covered with steel armor or the training mission is pointless.

Re:WTF?

[blindseer]

Ever think WHY the engines caught fire?

This was a B-36, those things would sometimes catch on fire because the radio operator farted. These aircraft were notorious for engine fires. A lot of this was because of it being a first of its kind, no one built an airframe that large before. It was put in service in spite of its problems because there were people that feared the Russians more than this aircraft.

In 1950 the B-36 was still new and not all of its problems were discovered yet. No doubt they learned a few things from this crash. This aircraft was designed to carry a much heavier load than this, but whether the design, or perhaps this specific airframe, met those design specs can certainly be disputed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Re:WTF?

[Cramer]

You do realize there's a difference between weapons grade, enriched uranium and depleted uranium, right? To accurately gauge the weapon carrying capabilities, it would be loaded with a "dummy load" which means no actual nuclear fuel. It gets loaded with depleted uranium to match the mass and weight distribution. In other words, the small ball of plutonium that actually makes the giant kaboom, isn't on the plane. (i.e. everything but the core. "In tonights test, the part of plutonium will be played by a ball of depleted uranium -- because we have a lot of that shit laying around.")

Re: WTF?

[LanceMcGrath]

A quick Google tells me that dry sand with gravel would have roughly the same density as TNT. I suspect that would be somewhat less likely to go boom, too.

Re: WTF?

[LanceMcGrath]

Shit movie, AND you got the quote wrong.

Re:WTF?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not bollocks, we were actually told about this in high school in BC. How the US Goverment basically swooped in to salvage or destroy what was left of the plane, but no bomb was found.

Re:WTF?

[quenda]

My question is, why would a dummy bomb be packed with TNT?

Its not actually a "dummy", but a real bomb with the core removed.

Re: WTF?

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't the core into two halves? And isn't it true that simply bringing the two together causes suoercriticality?

Re:WTF?

[stoatwblr]

Unexploded nukes aren't "highly radioactive". Even the cores (in fact one of the big problems with cores was keeping the highly radioactive contaminants _out_)

You could sleep on a uranium mattress without ill effects.

On the other hand, uranium and plutonium are a biologically toxic metals regardless of radioactivity so you don't want them in the environment if you can avoid it.

I'd be much more worried about the stability of the TNT after all this time underwater.

Re:WTF?

[stoatwblr]

The interesting thing is that those dumped reactors (and a couple of downed nuke subs) are monitored closely and NO radioactivity can be detected in their vicinity. It's only when you get closer than about 2 metres that anything can be detected at all.

For that reason it's been deemed safer to leave them where they are than to try and pull them out of the water.

The BBC ran a documentary on these reactors and the monitoring processes about a decade ago. It's worth looking at if you can find it.

Re:WTF?

[stoatwblr]

The U238 casing is used as a fission booster in "H-bombs" (and is where most of the explosion actually comes from - the fusion bomb boosts the fission bomb, etc.

But this isn't an H-bomb. It's one of the early crude fatman designs and you're right.

For those wondering about why a bomb complete with explosives was used for test flights:

This was early 1950s US Military. Safety and commonsense weren't high on the list of requirements back then, which is why there were a number of nuclear incidents including several prompt-critical induced reactor vessel steam explosions at various sites and the godawful messes at Hanford & Snake river that need cleaning up.

Re:WTF?

[Anonymous Coward]

These older bombs had a plutonium "pit" that had to be manually installed inside the bomb while in flight in order to arm it. Without that, it was a like a bomb without a trigger. The regular explosives could go off, but no nuclear explosion because the core of it *wasn't there*. The uranium present is probably an unenriched damper that would augment the explosion if it was nuclear (i.e. due to the neutrons from the nuclear explosion), but otherwise not do much. It was very much short of a "live" atomic bomb.

Re:WTF?

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess it's better to be lucky than good?

Re: WTF?

[blindseer]

A "gun type" weapon has the core in two halves. An "implosion type" weapon has the core as a single sub-critical piece. This was an implosion device, with a single piece core.

Re: WTF?

[Anonymous Coward]

Like toothpaste? Believe it or not, it is close to the density of plastic explosive.

Re:WTF?

[BoogieChile]

Four tons of weight would not get "lost in the noise" if it suddenly decided to move from, e.g., the middle of the plane to the tail end of it.

Re:WTF?

[fuzzywig]

In some bomb designs a shell of non-weapons grade uranium (ie U 238) is used as a 'tamper', to increase the yield. As for the TNT, it's relatively non-sensitive compared to the fuel in the aircraft.

If the idea of an aircraft carrying a bomb without the nuclear 'pit' inside it, I recommend you don't read Command and Control by Eric Schlosser, because you'll find out about how many times the USAF flew around with fully armed warheads, or indeed the times they crashed (eg Goldsboro).

Re:WTF?

[RockDoctor]

So you didn't actually read the fucking article. The central core ("pit") of the bomb was removed before flight leaving the considerably less dangerous and less radioactive outer parts of the bomb (but most of the mass.

You probably don't know much about radioactivity, so you probably can't use the half lives of the isotopes (U-238 ~ 4470000 thousand years; U-235 ~ 700000 thousand years; Pu-239 24 thousand years) to calculate the (relative) activity. You'd probably be terrified if I gave you a shot of fine single-malt whisky in a vintage 1930s luminous green glass tumbler (with it's 3-5% of undepleted uranyl oxide colouring the glass). You would also be un-reassured by the fact that I let you choose which glass to use, and then drank from the other.

Re:WTF?

[Gussington]

So you didn't actually read the fucking article.

Of course not. Are you new here?

No plutonium is not an issue here

[Anonymous Coward]

If that TnT is still active and unstable the nuke is basically a dirty bomb if it goes up the fall out from the uranium can contaminate a large area of Canada.

Also a diver found this and the people searching for it? Its a NUKE at what point do you say meh when looking for a lost nuke and stop searching.

Shouldn't this thing be radiating radiation how could they not find it from that?

Re:No plutonium is not an issue here

[pahles]

It is on the bottom of the sea, if it goes off there will be no fallout. Yes, the water will be contaminated, but depending on currents, the area could be a lot smaller.

Re:No plutonium is not an issue here

[Dutch Gun]

Shouldn't this thing be radiating radiation how could they not find it from that?

Perhaps the lead mentioned in the summary, who's purpose would likely be radiation shielding.

Re:No plutonium is not an issue here

[Anonymous Coward]

Seawater is already "contaminated" with uranium. As is rock throughout the world.

Re:No plutonium is not an issue here

[Strider-]

No, the lead was a simulator for the plutonium pit. The Depleted Uranium tamper surrounding the weapon isn't particularly radioactive. The tamper is there for two reasons, one the density and high inertia of it confines the chemical explosion long enough for the nuclear reaction to occur. Secondly, fast neutrons from the plutonium chain reaction then cause the tamper to fission, generating another portion of the weapon's energy.

As to why you're flying the aircraft with a weapon such as this, it's because it is supposed to be a live training mission, testing all the electrical interfaces, mission profiles, etc... and without the plutonium pit, the weapon is inert from a nuclear perspective. At that point, they also didn't have really viable simulators that could be used as a proxy.

Re:No plutonium is not an issue here

[Dutch Gun]

Interesting... Thanks for the correction and information. The low radioactivity would explain why it couldn't be detected then, I suppose. And it also explains why the military didn't bother to continue looking for it, since by your description, it doesn't seem all that dangerous (relatively speaking, as it's still a bomb).

Re: No plutonium is not an issue here

[Anonymous Coward]

Also, water makes for one hell of a radiation shield. It's been said that you could swim in the cooling pools of spent nuclear fuel assemblies and not get any extra dosage unless you dive down within a foot or two of the rods themselves...

Re: No plutonium is not an issue here

[K. S. Kyosuke]

A famous case in point. (See page 10 in particular.)

Re: No plutonium is not an issue here

[Anonymous Coward]

Obligatory XKCD what-if https://what-if.xkcd.com/29

Re:No plutonium is not an issue here

[stoatwblr]

Even without the lead, it would be almost impossible to detect from more than a few cm away.

Water is an incredibly effective absorber of alpha/beta/gamma emissions, which is why it's being postulated as the most effective radiation shielding for biologicals (ie humans) on interplanetary trips.

Poor summary and incomplete story

[mykepredko]

I don't know why the poster/editor put in the last line "The crew says they dumped their bomb-like cargo into the ocean first to avoid a detonation on land" as it adds confusion to the story. If you read TFA, it seems like the bomb was dropped into the water to avoid the problems of the TNT exploding and not the BOMB detonating (which doesn't seem possible).

I'd be interested in finding out why the USAF didn't try to recover the bomb if they thought they knew where it was.

Re: Poor summary and incomplete story

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe not cost effective.

Re:Poor summary and incomplete story

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe they didn't want Canada to know they had nukes flying around their country.

Re:Poor summary and incomplete story

[Anonymous Coward]

the TNT exploding and not the BOMB detonating (which doesn't seem possible).

Nuclear bombs are difficult to ignite. I would say impossible without specific triggering

If it were that easy, there would have been no need for the Manhattan Project and we'd probably all be speaking German right now. If it were a dummy bomb, there would not be a need to spend billions to find it.

https://what-if.xkcd.com/29/

Re:Poor summary and incomplete story

[Anonymous Coward]

If it's any consolation, we'll all be speaking Russian within 4 years.

Re:Poor summary and incomplete story

[s.petry]

I don't know why the poster/editor put in the last line "The crew says they dumped their bomb-like cargo into the ocean first to avoid a detonation on land" as it adds confusion to the story. If you read TFA, it seems like the bomb was dropped into the water to avoid the problems of the TNT exploding and not the BOMB detonating (which doesn't seem possible).

Given our knowledge of nuclear weapons at the time, I'm guessing there was concern about TNT blowing up next to uranium causing a reaction. I'm not a weapons person, and in my ignorance wonder that possibility myself.

I'd be interested in finding out why the USAF didn't try to recover the bomb if they thought they knew where it was.

A saucer shaped big-ass weight would have lots of cool ways to travel. Logistics on finding it would have probably put it out of reach..

Re:Poor summary and incomplete story

[Anonymous Coward]

If it's any consolation, we'll all be speaking Russian within 4 years.

Just imagine how Chinese government official feel. They spent all that time buying all of our debt, and then Russia helps push this con man in and ruins their investment!

Re:Poor summary and incomplete story

[DarkOx]

My guess is there was concern the TNT could detonate and spread radioactive uranium over a considerable area, not there would be a nuclear chain reaction. It could have been essentially a dirty bomb if the TNT blew.

Re:Poor summary and incomplete story

[Gussington]

A saucer shaped big-ass weight would have lots of cool ways to travel. Logistics on finding it would have probably put it out of reach..

Seems odd to make a bomb out of something that flies so unpredictably though right? Isn't the idea of a bomb to land at a predetermined point from where you drop it?

Re:Poor summary and incomplete story

[Anonymous Coward]

It's the TNT that detonates - a chemical reaction triggered by its own pressure wave.

Re:Poor summary and incomplete story

[Anonymous Coward]

China owns less than 10% of US public debt,

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/moneymatters/ss/How-Much-US-Debt-Does-China-Own.htm

Re:Poor summary and incomplete story

[blindseer]

Uranium makes for a very poor choice as a dirty weapon. Uranium is a toxic metal, so don't eat it, but it is not a radiation hazard. People tasked with handling it will have gloves, a mask, goggle, and maybe a rubber suit. Usually this is because they have to protect the uranium from the people. The uranium in a nuclear reactor or weapon must be very pure to work properly, a fingerprint or hair on the uranium fuel could prove to be dangerous to power plant workers, or merely expensive in fixing the reduced power output.

Depleted uranium ammunition is a hazard for people, because people tend to be the targets hit with them. The uranium dust kicked up from firing these DU shells is suspected to be the cause of many cases of Gulf War syndrome. Gulf War syndrome is likely the result of some combination of exposure to the DU dust, smoke from burning oil wells, traumatic brain injury, chemical weapons, and battle stress. Placing the blame on uranium poisoning alone has been difficult. An unarmed uranium bomb detonating it's TNT primary would spread uranium around but not in a kind of heavy dust seen from firing shells from an M1 tank or AC-130. It would be large chunks and any dust would settle in the outdoor air quickly and become nearly undetectable among the naturally occurring uranium in the ground.

A nuclear weapon without it's "pit" would be a similar hazard as an unexploded WWII era 2 ton bomb. This bunch of TNT wrapped in heavy metals is like handling a hand grenade the size of a refrigerator. Unless the bomb is near a populated area it's just best to cordon off the area and leave it to rust. If it did detonate it would not be a dirty bomb, but it would leave a good sized crater and potentially kill anyone within perhaps a mile of it from the resulting shrapnel.

Re:Poor summary and incomplete story

[Anonymous Coward]

Given the blast and heat from a mere 10K.... you really don't care much if it fits in a 50ft circle vs say a mile or two...

Re:Poor summary and incomplete story

[Bartles]

The object found was also described as saucer shaped, bigger than a king size bed, perfectly flat on top, rounded on the bottom, with a hole through it like a bagel. It takes about 2 seconds to realize that can in no way be the desctiption of a "fat man" nuclear bomb. This is a sensationalist story about a guy who found a piece of trash in the ocean and some old dude said "maybe its a nuclear bomb". I saw this movie. It's called Joe Dirt.

That's what you get when big government owns stuff

[Anonymous Coward]

Big government is so stupid, they lose everything.

Therefore, we should put all nukes in the hands of private nuclear contractors.

you could say their test was a success

[Anonymous Coward]

"to see if it could carry the payload required"

apparently it couldn't

Broken Arrow

[xororand]

Lost nuclear bombs are also called "Broken Arrow".

>the US Department of Defense has officially recognized 32 "Broken Arrow" incidents, including but not limited to
        1950 British Columbia B-36 crash
        1956 B-47 disappearance
        1958 Mars Bluff B-47 nuclear weapon loss incident
        1958 Tybee Island mid-air collision
        1961 Yuba City B-52 crash
        1961 Goldsboro B-52 crash
        1964 Savage Mountain B-52 crash
        1965 Philippine Sea A-4 incident
        1966 Palomares B-52 crash[6]
        1968 Thule Air Base B-52 crash
        1980 Damascus, Arkansas incident

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Re: Broken Arrow

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't forget the 25% of nuclear reserves Hillary's allies lost to Russia; or the US nukes that were lost from never being made due to the agreement Democrats sighed that stopped us production while allowing foreign countries to keep making nukes.

Re: Broken Arrow

[serviscope_minor]

Well this post proves that if you write a post attacking Hillary here, it does not matter how stupid it is, it'll still get modded up.

Re: Broken Arrow

[Anonymous Coward]

The red-necked, gun-toting, bible-thumping, climate change denying, science hating, evolution denying shills subverted and took over Slashdot a long time ago.

The "moderation" system became a censorship system in their hands. Silencing opposing views, banning other users (despite the fact that the new owner does not realise this is possible)... One of their favourite tactics is to paint anyone who does not adhere to their right wing views as a raving loony communist. It is purely black and white with them (not really, but that is how they present it on this site that they have taken over).

My theory is that it is only old retired independenly wealthy people who have the time to sit around all day gaming the moderation system on slashdot in order to manipulate public perception of issues. Thus the right wing slant in the resulting content of slashdot. The rest of us have to work - those of us who hold real world moderate progressive views. Also, they have the money to pay people to do this. It has been this way for over 10 years now. It dates back to a particular South Park episode that was a masterwork of propaganda. People realised you don't have to be Goebbels to do it. Goebbels had no idea how sophisticated it would become, he could only have dreamed of such effective propaganda. Nazi propaganda was childlike and extremely simplistic by comparison.

Old news. Still sad, but old news. Techies are a target, we can't have smart people freely posting their thoughts now can we?

Re: Broken Arrow

[Anonymous Coward]

tl; dr.

But from my skimming: seriously, you believe that crap?

Re: Broken Arrow

[Anonymous Coward]

You must be new here.

Re:Broken Arrow

[AHuxley]

A lot of fires too :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
"As experts were reviewing problems with the US nuclear force, the Air Force was withholding the fact that it was investigating damage to a nuclear-armed missile in its launch silo caused by 3 airmen" (Jan. 23, 2016)
http://www.usnews.com/news/pol...
The internal secrecy even from top cleared US experts is also an issue. The newer accidents are just not getting reported to the public as much anymore :)

Complete non-story

[Anonymous Coward]

Good lord how does this crap even make it to the front page. From TFA:

But while the military and the diver believe they may have found the lost nuke of Bomber 075, Mr Septer says the diver's location is totally wrong, given what we know about the plane crash. "It could be anything," Mr Septer said. "Whatever he found, it's not the nuke."

Now I realize that there is a long tradition on not reading TFA on /. but I had hoped that tradition didn't extend to the idiots actually posting the stories.

Re:Complete non-story

[ColdWetDog]

Good lord how does this crap even make it to the front page. From TFA:

But while the military and the diver believe they may have found the lost nuke of Bomber 075, Mr Septer says the diver's location is totally wrong, given what we know about the plane crash.

"It could be anything," Mr Septer said. "Whatever he found, it's not the nuke."

Now I realize that there is a long tradition on not reading TFA on /. but I had hoped that tradition didn't extend to the idiots actually posting the stories.

The Canadian military seems to think it a high enough chance to route a few ships towards it. This guy may have studied the incident and may have an opinion, but he may well be wrong. We don't have a GPS track of the plane. It happened a long time ago.

And you are completely discounting the possibility of some Godzilla-like creature slowly moving the device towards it's lair? Have you thought of that?

Re: Complete non-story

[Anonymous Coward]

Also too the mark 5 looks like nothing like a flying saucer, it looks like a huuuuge dumb air dropped bomb

Re: Complete non-story

[Anonymous Coward]

Or not. It is looking increasingly like the diver found an actual flying saucer. There's been a massive amount of military activity in the area lately. Two giant pieces of disc have been salvaged from the ocean floor and delivered to two huge tented area about a mile inland. There's a mile deep cordon of military personnel around the tents. The whole area us brightly lit (you can hear the generators from back here - maybe three miles away. The insides of the tents are equally brightly lit. You can see people moving inside without the need for binoculars.

Trusted source?

[ebonum]

Do you actually trust the U.S. government to be honest? It may have been a complete weapon - plutonium and all. They simply made something up to make sure people wouldn't panic (or the real motivation to lie: people would criticize the government for f'ing up. Again.). No one outside a select few has the ability to find out if it had been loaded with plutonium. If they were actually worried about safety, there would not be any TNT or uranium in it. They would have filled the bomb with something inert to give it the same mass, center of mass and maybe even moment of inertia. Nuclear bombs don't go off unless properly triggered, so the risk of a full explosion is about zero. There is a very real risk of it potentially becoming a dirty bomb.

Lying and deception are completely legit when keeping Americans safe. Doubly so for anything classified.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Re:Trusted source?

[hey!]

While you can't trust the military to report honestly to the public on an accident, in this case there is every reason to believe this bomb is quite safe. The Mark IV bomb had a hinge on it so you can open it up and load the fissile pit into it in flight, during an actual bombing run.

During a training mission there would be no reason to have the fissile pit on the aircraft.

Re:Trusted source?

[ebonum]

Sounds like you've done this. I'd mod you up, if I could.

Re:Trusted source?

[Anonymous Coward]

What inert material can you think of that would have the density of depleted Uranium? Oh wait, depleted Uranium is already inert and there isn't anything with its density.

Re:Trusted source?

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you actually trust the U.S. government to be honest?

No, that's why I voted for Donald Trump.

Oh goodness, Soviet Canuckistan has The Bomb!

[davecb]

Build a fence!

Re:Oh goodness, Soviet Canuckistan has The Bomb!

[BarbaraHudson]

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau: Someone set us up the bomb.
Quebec Premier Phillippe Couillard (Operator) : Tabernak! Main screen turn on
Poutine on screen: All your base are belong to us/
Poutine on screen: You have no chance to survive. Make your time.
Minister of National Defence Harjit Sajjan: Take off every zig!
Minister of National Defence Harjit Sajjan For great justice!
President-elect Trump: I welcome our poutine-munching overlords.
President-elect Trump: I love poutine.
President-elect Trump: I will build a YUGE WALL OF POUTINE.
President-elect Trump: And make Canada pay for it!
Prime Minister Justin Trudeau to President-Elect Donald Trump. We were going to build it anyway.
Prime Minister Justin Trudeau to President-Elect Donald Trump. You Americans keep crashing our immigration site.
Minister of National Defence Harjit Sajjan to Prime Minister Justin Trudeau : We shall do the needful!

Re: Oh goodness, Soviet Canuckistan has The Bomb!

[Anonymous Coward]

Spectacular! Thanks for the gut laughs!

interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

droping your load in the ocean was a common practice if something goes wrong for military crafts for obvious reasons. uranium was never mentioned.

Alpha radiation blocked by tissue paper, air

[raymorris]

Uranium emits alpha particles. A few things that stop alpha radiation include:

Tissue paper
Rubber gloves
Water
Air (centimeters)

They could detect the radiation from the uranium IF the measuring instrument were touching the uranium directly.

On the other hand, you emit some BETA radiation, which isn't stopped by air. Mostly it's the potassium in your body which makes you far more radioactive than uranium is, at any distance greater than 4 centimeters.

So, That's a "No", Then?

[Greyfox]

So I'm guessing the outcome of the study was that the plane can't carry the payload?

Re:So, That's a "No", Then?

[BarbaraHudson]

So I'm guessing the outcome of the study was that the plane can't carry the payload?

With the extra 4 jet engines in addition to the 6 piston engines it could fly with only 3 of its 6 piston engines, but not a smart move when they're on fire. (That's right - 10 engines).

Re:So, That's a "No", Then?

[ColdWetDog]

No, it's really a test to see if anyone would read TFA.

The plane's engines caught on fire.

Re:So, That's a "No", Then?

[Anonymous Coward]

Because they were overloaded trying to keep the plane the air carrying too much weight??

Re:So, That's a "No", Then?

[_merlin]

No, just because it was a B36 - it would've been more surprising if at least one engine didn't catch fire. The B36 had propellers in pusher configuration on the trailing edges of the wings to reduce turbulence in the leading edges and improve lift. This required the radial engines be flipped front-to-back relative to how they were designed to be installed. This meant that the carburettors had cold air passing over them rather than air that had been warmed by passing over the engine, leading to ice build-up. This caused fuel to somehow come out of the carburettors the wrong way, make its way onto hot parts of the engines, and catch fire. The B36 was infamous for engine fires thanks to this highly questionable piece of engineering.

Re:So, That's a "No", Then?

[Bartles]

The icing carburetors were an entirely different problem. The engines overheated and caught fire just because air cooled engines do not work well in a pusher configuration. It's difficult to get airflow here it's needed.

Re:So, That's a "No", Then?

[Bartles]

Actually I was remembering wrong. The icing carburetors directly contributed to the problem.

What's going to happen...

[Anonymous Coward]

Hello SAC ? I was fishing here in the offshore of Canada and I found a device that could be yours. If you wait I send you a picture.

(fisherman grabs his Samsung Galaxy Note 7 to take a picture of the device)

Here it is, now I send it to you. I just press the "send" button and you get the pic, just wait...uh, oh!

KABOOM!

Clean up the toy-box

[Tablizer]

I bet somebody knew where it was but didn't bother saying anything, until Trump was elected.

A Live One is Still Missing

[rotorbudd]

Off the coast of GA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Re:A Live One is Still Missing

[Anonymous Coward]

A bunch of live ones are still missing.

Doesn't Sound Like A Nuke

[Toad-san]

That strange description given by the discoverer certainly doesn't sound like any nuke I've ever seen or heard of.

Sure he found a nuke...

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm still more interested to know, did he find any sea cucumbers?

As the wikpedia article will tell you:

[Anonymous Coward]

The key issue was that the engines used were designed for a tractor/puller engine configuration, and were mounted on the b-36 in a pusher configuration without modifications. The result (I forget if it was overheating, freezing, or radiator issues) was that the engines had a much higher tendancy of conditions which would result in the engines backfiring and catching on fire as a result.