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Microsoft's x86 on ARM64 Emulation: A Windows 10 Redstone 3 Fall 2017 Feature (zdnet.com)
Mary Jo Foley, reporting for ZDNet:Since January 2016 (and maybe before), there's been talk that Microsoft was working on bringing x86 emulation to ARM processors. Sources of mine are now saying that this capability is coming to Windows 10, though not until "Redstone 3" in the Fall of 2017. Here's why this matters: Microsoft officials continue to claim that Continuum -- the capability that will allow Windows 10 Mobile devices to connect to external displays and keyboards -- is going to be a key for the company, its partners and its customers. There's been one very big limitation to Continuum so far, however: It only allows users to run Universal Windows Platform (UWP), and not full-fledged x86 apps. What if an ARM64-based device could run x86 apps via emulation, the same way that the WOW (Windows on Windows) emulator allowed 32-bit apps to run on 64-bit Windows? That would make Windows 10 Mobile, which as of now, continues to support ARM only, and Continuum a lot more interesting, especially to business users who need certain Win32/line-of-business apps.
Allow it to run ARM-compiled Desktop Apps and they will magically start appearing.
I hope they don't cripple it like they did Windows RT. People ported some desktop applications to the ARM architecture, but it wouldn't run any applications not signed by Microsoft.
Rather than just provide x86 emulation on ARM, we can use x86 emulation on ARM to run Oracle's x86 Java implementation. We can run the jRuby interpreter in that. And we can use jRuby to run this ATARI 2600 emulator.
I bet a lot of you folks can suggest a more absurd one than that.
Bruce Perens.
Isn't WOW using hardware "emulation" (running in 32 bits mode in a 64 bits hypervisor) whereas this would require software emulation and be hopelessly slow?
emulation of x86 for apps not sufficient, that doesn't make drivers work.
Microsoft had the same basic thing on Windows NT 4 for Alpha. It had the FX!32 x86 emulator. IIRC it was a dynamic recompiler that saved off the recompiled code for faster operation the next time the app was run. Doesn't .Net also do this?
... that you had enough memory in your phone.
You're about to get x86 AIDS.
Maybe if we keep posting serious technical articles about Win10, people will eventually start to ignore what an abomination it is.
Don't You?
Sent as ripples into the electromagnetic field. No single photon has been harmed in the process.
Only one more year to wait to see how well, or poorly. x86 programs run on Windows Mobile devices. The problem will be that, I presume, that only 0.1 percent of Windows Mobile will have the horsepower to actually make this a useful thing to do. Looks to me like a Surface Phone could come out at the end of 2017 that will do the job with outstanding hardware, a high price, and will sell very well. Anything else will be ignored.
Why are they still pretending Windows 10 mobile isn't dead?
http://betanews.com/2016/07/29...
No, no it's not dead, it's just resting... Beautiful plumage!
I was worried that I wouldn't be able to play minesweeper on the new ARM processors.
Is there some reason to not go this route? It seems a lot more obvious to me; no emulation needed. Continuum on Windows 10 Mobile on x86 solves most of these problems. I think Microsoft's last best chance for Windows Mobile to be anything other than a footnote is to support corporate desktops, and x86 phones that are also a corporate workers desktop seems like something they can manage in short order. At that point, good old-fashioned Microsoft inertia takes over and plenty of people start using their work platform as their personal device as well.
I don't see it conquering the world, but it's probably a profitable niche at least.
Or do they really need to keep making up names?
I'm one of the few with a 7" x86 tablet running Windows 8. It's an awesome little machine. I get to use full feature desktop programs from a machine that fits in my pants pockets. Pair it up with a bluetooth keyboard/mouse and I can even run a number of modern games (HD3000 gpu) and program on it...
The #1 problem that prevents me from recommending anyone get one is battery life. Even Intel's tablet class Atoms suck down batteries... I'm lucky to get 4 hours with the tablet in sleep mode! Switching over to ARM64 with x86 emulation, even if there is a 50% speed reduction, would greatly solve this issue.
Of course, it doesn't really solve the #2 problem with the device. Tablets are content consuming devices, not content creation devices. Windows has always been a content creation centered OS. And that sort of defeats the purpose of putting it on any mobile device. Buy a laptop... It has the added benefit of easily running Linux or BSD.
What do apps use to talk to the hardware?
Drivers!
Brought to you by the geniuses that realized the nightmare of executable code in emails
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
Is there anything about this better than an RDP solution now?
You mean other than not having to pay hundreds of dollars per year to a cellular carrier for a data plan so that you can run RDP while riding the city bus or otherwise out of range of Wi-Fi?
I can't even get qemu to emulate a raspberry pi faster than the pi itself on a Core i7 processor. I don't suppose going the other direction would work any better.
I am sure that's going to be a huge success, especially in the mobile market.
I remember way back when, when Apple shifted Macs from 68000-based processors to the Power PC. Instantly, the fastest 68000-based Mac was the 68000 emulation mode of the Power PC. And native was faster still.
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
Microsoft could make a desperate move to get back into the mobile phone space - an x86 mobile phone guaranteed to run Windows10 natively.
Microsoft could throw $$$ at AMD to design / build the CPU, as Intel has given up.
Modern x86 processors convert the x86 CPU Instructions into RISC Micro Ops.
AMD could build an x86 CPU that converts the x86 CPU instructions to ARM Ops. The hardware conversion should be very efficient.
This was done 20 years ago with FX!32 to run x86 Windoes binaries on Alpha.
Is there much need for this, even in the corporate world?
I think what's much more useful in the corporate world is screencasting, so that the screen is essentially agnostic and you can project any video source on it, not be limited to x86 phone apps. That way if you want to use a windows mobile app with attachable keyboard, that's fine. If on the other hand you use an iPhone or Android app, it will still work just fine.
Microsoft has to face facts: They've lost the mobile market and have to create standards that others are compelled (either due to corporate environment or actual user needs) to follow.
Help! I'm a slashdot refugee.
Maybe other apps? It's hard to tell.
It's not like he's ever making sense anyway.
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According to the latest ruleset, this post should be modded as Vorpal Flamebait +5.
Fall 2017, so that's around April then??
sub-$300 tiny underpowered laptops are still offered by the usual suspects. In my experience netbooks are a waste of money, and I usually recommend people save up until they have around $650 to spend for a laptop
I have a 10" Dell netbook from six and a half years ago, but it's showing its age, and I fear not being able to find replacement parts once it finally does bite the dust. Is there a market for laptops that are smaller than 12" but not underpowered?
Normaly, the less powerfull architecture is virtualized/emulated in the more powerful one.
That's why you could run (whay back when) X86 on alpha, but not the other way around.
If we asume ARM64 in Mobiles, X86 in Workstations, Desktops and Laptops, and a mix of both in tablets, we see that ARM64 is the weaker architecture, NOT BECAUSE OF THE ARCHITECTURE ITSELF (that's open to debate), but because of thermal disipation limits and power (battery) limitations.
Therefore, the emulation will probably be ARM64 emulated on top of X86 Hardware.
Besides, just to top it off, Microsoft is an ARM licensee, so they can implement the ISA however they see fit (including via emulation), while emulating X86 on top of ARM may open a can of legal worms with both intel (x86-32) and AMD (X86-64).
*** Suerte a todos y Feliz dia!
...no one will buy one.
Microsoft would have been better off to choose an Intel mobile chipset and worked on this other stuff. Then when it was ready they could switch to ARM if they liked. However, chances are that even if ARM does get x86 emulation it will be terrible. It'll eat batteries and it will chug. Microsoft should also be tooling up their Developer Studio to spit out universal binaries using LLVM or similar. If an exe is compiled natively on first invocation then it doesn't matter what processor it runs on and performance should be good on all of them.
Intel just dumped 10 billion dollars into a sink hole trying to run ARM out of town only to end up running back home with their tail between their legs. AMD might have again have a competitive product on the desktop next year but they've been in poor shape for a long time. I can't imagine AMD management wanting to sign up to repeat Intel's expensive failures. Maybe if Microsoft offered a deal where they took all the risk/cost off their hands this might sign on. But Microsoft doesn't seem like they want to actually stick their neck out there and do the hard work to fight it out in mobile so I doubt they would offer that. They just want to show up and win because for some reason they think people actually want Windows on their phone.
Wouldn't that hybrid CPU that AMD is making for both x86 and ARM work for Microsoft in this case?