Work Emails After Hours Finally Banned in France (fortune.com)

Slippery slope by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-01 11:35 · Score: 2, Funny

It starts with vacation emails, next they'll be deleting first posts. Who would want to live in a world like that?

Re: Slippery slope by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-02 02:15 · Score: 1

Electricity in France is among the cheapest in Europe https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_pricing#/media/File%3AElectricity-prices-europe.jpg
Delicious
Awesome food is made by hard working people - French bakers, farmers, cooks who love their job and put on long hours every day.
Congratulations on staying many years over here and blending in. You fit right in with your negative attitude, that pessimistic trait is indeed a signature of many French people.
Re:Slippery slope by jellomizer · 2017-01-02 05:07 · Score: 2

I think the attitudes towards worker rights are with the two extremes with the United States and France. Americans tend to work too hard, and are generally afraid of being labeled lazy, so they work so hard that they miss out on opportunities in life. The French have so many regulations to curve how hard they can work, that they tend to take the easy lifestyle for granted, which then causes them to not be as ambitious or succeed, as they are more or less set on where they are at the time.

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If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Re:Slippery slope by Tamerlin · 2017-01-02 06:17 · Score: 2

Americans tend to work too hard, and are generally afraid of being labeled lazy, so they work so hard that they miss out on opportunities in life.
They also tend to accomplish a lot less. The ones who work the most hours are invariably the ones creating the most negative work, and they're also the ones getting promoted, leading to a downward spiral. More asses in seats, but less getting done. That's why the US is no longer a leader in many fields, other than how warm we keep our seats.
Re:Slippery slope by jellomizer · 2017-01-02 10:07 · Score: 1

I think it is more due to a culture that doesn't respect education, combined with an education system that is very elitists which is increasingly less concerned about the rigors of live and producing and more on overly abstract theory.
Your idea has the point in the means that Americans are working so hard, that they don't have the time to take time off get trained in a better paying position. The 35 hour week gives us that extra 5 hours a week to take a couple of college courses. Where today it is nearly impossible especially if you have a blue collar job which has strict rigors in what time and how much time you work.

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If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Re:Slippery slope by jellomizer · 2017-01-02 10:13 · Score: 1

Please give us countries that out produces the United States. This perceived decline is more do the the fact that most of the countries have recovered from WWII (where they were in rubble during the 1950's. China is the second largest economy, but they have 10x the population of the US. About the same size and resources available. In theory China should be able to smoke the United States. But it doesn't it is just competitive. Europe has a lot of problems with producing as well. The USA is still leading however other countries are catching up and are being competive, so it feels like we are slowing down, while everyone else is just getting back. Pre WWII the US wasn't the #1 nation in the world. It was a major force, but Germany and Great Britain were still beating us.

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If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Re:Slippery slope by dywolf · 2017-01-03 02:48 · Score: 1

sounds like France is ready for the all-robotic-labor-force already.
that puts them ahead of the US.
In yet another metric.

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The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.

Sorely needed in the US by waspleg · 2017-01-01 11:39 · Score: 5, Insightful

along with that 35 hour work week - without a pay reduction.

I'm hourly and required to carry a work cellphone 24/7 despite not being paid to do so in any way (money/comp time/whatever).

But the demonization of unions by big corporate money has been very successful in fucking shit like this up for the US.

Re:Sorely needed in the US by Tablizer · 2017-01-01 11:53 · Score: 3, Insightful

But the demonization of unions by big corporate money has been very successful in fucking shit like this up for the US.
Well, it's a trade-off. In the US it's easier to have more and bigger "stuff", but we work harder and longer for it, not always by choice.

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Table-ized A.I.
Re:Sorely needed in the US by waspleg · 2017-01-01 11:56 · Score: 4, Insightful

I'm in IT and not a teacher and I work K-12 and in my (red) state the legislature completely gutted the teacher's unions but people think they're amazing and that teachers barely work get summers off and have hot tubs in the lounge; couldn't be further from the truth.
The benefits get worse every year and it's standard operating procedure to keep people in fear for their jobs and to expect plenty of unpaid OT.
Teachers get shit on and everyone who supports them gets shit on worse (except managers, of course). The only thing their union does at this point that's worth anything at all is maintains legal counsel and usually they're toothless since the laws are.
Re:Sorely needed in the US by waspleg · 2017-01-01 11:59 · Score: 1

I'm aware of a great many people who are working longer and harder just to keep their head above water living paycheck to paycheck with nothing to show for it despite this supposedly super low unemployment rate and great economic recovery (with stagnant wages).
You might be right though, I know nothing about how "more and bigger stuff" translates overseas.
Re:Sorely needed in the US by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-01 12:08 · Score: 4, Insightful

So you want to earn the same money for fewer hours? In what world is that fair to your employer?
Don't want to carry the work phone, don't. If they fire you find a job with an employer that doesn't require it.
A couple years back I was told I could no longer work from home (company was purchased, new policy). Okay but I work 7:30 to 4:30. I do not check email after that time and will attend one evening meeting a week. Given I'm part of a team that is spread overseas that did actually matter and I work less now. Didn't get fired and am still working 7:30 to 4:30.
This is not something that requires laws. If you do not want to be tied to your work phone at all hours, don't do it.
Re:Sorely needed in the US by Dorianny · 2017-01-01 12:14 · Score: 1

In return they end up with the bottom of the barrel teachers that trains a know-nothing labor-force. Then Kansas sits there astonished how their Tax cuts couldn't convince the "overtaxed" Californian corporations to move there. Guess what Red States, the most important thing for Business is having the right tools to compete in the marketplace.
Re:Sorely needed in the US by waspleg · 2017-01-01 12:14 · Score: 5, Insightful

Their work is dealing with your shitty kids. Some are glorified babysitters and they're scared to do anything because the law favors the kids and the kids know it and most of those shitty kids are shitty because their parents are worse.
Good teachers are doing lesson plans long in to their personal time and doing shit for their classes while "off" over the summer. I've seen many pay for basic school supplies for kids in their classes out of their own pockets because the kid's shitty parents won't or can't.
I suggest you actually go to the school and see how it is before judging from across the street. If you're in an affluent area it's a different set of problems but still a shit load of work dealing with helicopter soccer moms.
They couldn't pay me enough to be a teacher. I've been in enough classrooms to know I'd go to jail, my patience and temper aren't suited for it.
Re:Sorely needed in the US by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-01 12:14 · Score: 3, Insightful

If you understood how life actually is in France... US salaries for technical fields are nearly double those in France, for one. Having lived and worked in both, I'd caution you to not fetishize the European lifestyle... one's not better than the other, they're just different, based on very different cultures.
There's a good book some years back from some Canadian journalists who lived in France for a while... the main point being, since the US/Canadian and French demographics are relatively similar, both in the West, you might think that the cultures are similar, but this is not at all true. The French are no more similar to Americans than people in Thailand.
Re:Sorely needed in the US by waspleg · 2017-01-01 12:19 · Score: 1

Most districts don't want to pay anything, and the race is on to hand over everything to corporations for kickbacks (i.e. charter schools) - both sides of the red/blue aisle are guilty of that.
So they do shit like TFA (Teach For America) where they don't require licensed teachers to actually be in the classroom just kids fresh out of college with a BS in something who have no clue wtf they're doing and are supposed to "teach" kids that are roughly their own age and experience level.
They usually last a year at most, of course there are exceptions, but not many. I've seen some quit inside their first week because of how the kids are.
I've seen all sorts of dirty tricks trying to get rid of the vets with 30 years experience and who know wtf they're doing to save money.
Obedient docile dumb fucks is what politicians want anyway. They're easier to sway and keep them and their corporate masters in power.
Re:Sorely needed in the US by waspleg · 2017-01-01 12:21 · Score: 1

I've seen that too. Some have 2nd jobs because they have no choice.
Re:Sorely needed in the US by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-01 12:26 · Score: 1

Such as?
Home
Re:Sorely needed in the US by AthanasiusKircher · 2017-01-01 12:26 · Score: 3, Informative

The teachers do barely work.
I always love these statements. Perhaps you live near one of the few public schools in the U.S. where ALL of the teachers are lazy bums. When I actually worked in public schools for a few years (a little over a decade ago), working at least 8-9 hour days was standard, because there was no possible way to get your grading, planning, and other random administrative work done during school hours... unless you were a terrible teacher who never assigned anything or did anything in class. (And yeah, there were some of those people I knew who were out the door with the bell every day. Most of the other teachers looked on them as slackers. The only other teachers who weren't hanging around in their classrooms for at least a couple hours after school were generally those that coached afternoon sports and activities.)
Anyhow, sure, you can doubt me or maybe your school district is different or whatever. I'd just note that there are MANY states that have major teacher shortages -- estimates are that we're now short by tens of thousands of teachers nationwide. And attrition rate is HUGE -- roughly half of new teachers leave the field within 5 years, and ~2/3 of vacancies are due to "pre-retirement attrition," i.e., people who leave the field early in their careers.
So -- here's my question: if it's such a "sweet deal" to be a teacher, why do we have so much trouble finding them, and why do so many teachers leave the field so quickly? (And, by the way, the median salary for teachers in many states is much less than 60K -- in some states median salary is barely above ~40K. Starting salary in many states is frequently in the low 30s or even high 20s.)
Re:Sorely needed in the US by youngone · 2017-01-01 12:34 · Score: 4, Insightful

The demonization of the Unions has been hugely successful where I live also, begun largely by a small number of influential journalists in the 1980s.
The factory workers where I work stayed united and never lost any of their benefits. The non-union office people moan and whinge about all the "perks" they get, I say good on them.
Company profit last year? Approx $16 billion.
Re:Sorely needed in the US by Maxo-Texas · 2017-01-01 12:40 · Score: 1

For example, it's not uncommon for refrigerators to be half the size they are in the U.S.
Cars are often smaller as well. Livings spaces are smaller as well.
Partially, we have an issue in the U.S. with demand driving up the price of everything so it's harder to live even tho we make more money.
And it's not just u.s. citizen money, it's money from the well off all over the globe. They buy houses and buildings here to get their money out of their home countries. It's artificial demand that wouldn't exist if their countries were safer places to hold money.
But the end result is that the poor can live okay for $600 a month in China (in 500sq ft-cheaper food-much cheaper medical care) but you can't survive on $600 a month in the U.S. Just flat out can't survive.

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Re:Sorely needed in the US by Darinbob · 2017-01-01 13:02 · Score: 1

For me, I can't get up to productivity early. Too many people asking too many questions, too many meetings, too much email. In late afternoon I pick up and start getting stuff done. Now as a manager it's even worse. My enemy is me, saying in the morning "I'll just get this one simple 15 minute project done today" and it turns out I can't get to it. Now for a simpler job where there are simple tasks and you're paid by the hour, then sure, put a time limit on it. I'm more interested in flexible work hours myself, rather than forcing people into the worst times of day to commute.
Re:Sorely needed in the US by Darinbob · 2017-01-01 13:07 · Score: 1

School isn't even out at 2pm most places. And it's not like the start their day at 10am, or end the work at 2pm. It's a hard job, it's a low paying job, and now days it has no respect either. There's little reason to be a teacher anymore except for a bit of civic pride. All these yuppies sending their kids to private schools to get away from minorities and lower income classes are a big part of the problem even though they're the first ones to start accusing teachers of malfeasance.
Re:Sorely needed in the US by Darinbob · 2017-01-01 13:09 · Score: 2

No. Tenure does not keep bad teachers in schools. It is not the same as college tenure. All high school and elementary tenure does is mean you don't have to negotiate your contract every year, but you still can be fired for incompetence or poor performance. Schools don't want to do that because it's hard to get replacements, not because tenure binds their hands.
Re:Sorely needed in the US by Darinbob · 2017-01-01 13:16 · Score: 3, Informative

My father was a teacher and he saw the changes over his thirty years teaching. Restrictions on discipline, not even talking about corporal punishment but not even being allowed to raise a voice or keep a student after hours because the parents would bitch and whine about it. Even grabbing a child to keep him from running into the street got the parents furious. Then the school hours got shorter and the classes got bigger. And the "experts" coming in and saying how everything was being done wrong, so that every couple of years there was a new set of curriculum and workbooks to buy. And a school board easily manipulated. And students more unruly, parents not caring, and so on.
On the other hand I still have people coming up to me telling me what a great thing it was to have been in my father's class. He earned more respect in one year teaching a student than I can ever earn in an office job.
Re:Sorely needed in the US by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-01 13:17 · Score: 3, Insightful

So you want to earn the same money for fewer hours? In what world is that fair to your employer?
In the same one that says anything over 40 hours is overtime? At some level we've come to realize that we should work to live, not live to work. So if we decide that 35 hours is a reasonable upper limit on hours, even possible to the point of removing the option of overtime, so be it. With all the discussion of increased automation, we shouldn't be making moves towards greater overtime and yet that seems the major push for a lot of places because it's easier for them to pay more than to deal with more regular employees.
Seriously, the only "unfair" thing is if an employer is given no notice or the rules quickly and frequently change. A lot like employees already suffer from employers who quickly go from voluntary to mandatory overtime. Employers, of all people, should recognize "this is business" and just deal with it. Very few employers, by comparison, are as forgiving about the fairness or needs of their employees.

This is not something that requires laws. If you do not want to be tied to your work phone at all hours, don't do it.
And if employers don't want to abide by the laws of their country, they can just not do it. Given that employers have much more power over their employees than the reverse, it's a necessity that laws enforce working conditions. Some people will be unhappy because they'd prefer to be on-call because it excludes others from employment there. Well, sucks to be them.
Re:Sorely needed in the US by Darinbob · 2017-01-01 13:18 · Score: 1

Make the new generation stupid, then convince them that it's someone else's fault that their town is screwed up.
Re:Sorely needed in the US by Darinbob · 2017-01-01 13:21 · Score: 1

But without a good solid education, moving to new jobs becomes hard. So if the local job dries up how do you get a new one if you don't have a decent education? No employer wants to pay for on-the-job training, especially for someone that was a C student in high school. This makes the schools fundamentally important to having a good economy with low unemployment.
Re: Sorely needed in the US by Darinbob · 2017-01-01 13:28 · Score: 1

Germany has seemed a lot more stable economically than France and with a better work ethic for as long as I can remember. It still has good social programs but also a good set of industries to drive it. Right now Europe is a lot like what the US would be if we were split into 10-50 different countries. Some poor, some rich, some with their act together, some stuck in the past. The EU should have helped but it got screwed up in a lot of ways.
Re:Sorely needed in the US by haruchai · 2017-01-01 13:52 · Score: 2

My father taught at the high school level for over 30 years - English, Spanish, Geography, History - the stress of dealing with other people's ill-behaved, entitled oversized brats nearly caused a nervous breakdown. For about 1/2 those years, he also coached soccer & taught night classes to adults to make ends meet.
I'd sooner sell weed than teach high school. And there are a fuckton more hours spent working outside the classroom that in it.

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Pain is merely failure leaving the body
Re:Sorely needed in the US by AthanasiusKircher · 2017-01-01 14:52 · Score: 1

All high school and elementary tenure does is mean you don't have to negotiate your contract every year, but you still can be fired for incompetence or poor performance.
What you say various significantly from state to state. There are definitely places where unions make it nearly impossible to fire teachers even for cause.
For perhaps the most infamous example, in New York City, teachers who are accused of misconduct generally spend an average of 3 years in a so-called rubber room, being paid to do nothing, before their cases are arbitrated. New York spends tens of millions of dollars each year paying hundreds of teachers to do nothing. And in many cases the teachers aren't ultimately fired.
That's an extreme example, but there are other states and municipalities which make teacher tenure quite strong. It's true that MOST teacher tenure is nowhere near as strong as college tenure, but it really varies from place to place.
Re:Sorely needed in the US by cyn1c77 · 2017-01-01 18:09 · Score: 1

I'm in IT and not a teacher and I work K-12 and in my (red) state the legislature completely gutted the teacher's unions but people think they're amazing and that teachers barely work get summers off and have hot tubs in the lounge; couldn't be further from the truth.
The benefits get worse every year and it's standard operating procedure to keep people in fear for their jobs and to expect plenty of unpaid OT.
Teachers get shit on and everyone who supports them gets shit on worse (except managers, of course). The only thing their union does at this point that's worth anything at all is maintains legal counsel and usually they're toothless since the laws are.
Keep your eye on the ball:
Lower teacher salary = worse teaching = less well educated students = a less-intelligent population = an easier future constituency to manipulate
With that logic, why WOULD any legislature invest in teaching?
Re:Sorely needed in the US by angel'o'sphere · 2017-01-01 18:13 · Score: 1

The book is called "Sixty Million Frenchmen Can't Be Wrong". It is a funny read but also has many flaws (wrong informations), but those flaws don't really matter, it is entertaining and to show the differences in culture it is pretty good.

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Re:Sorely needed in the US by thegarbz · 2017-01-01 20:28 · Score: 3, Informative

The teachers do barely work.
Yeah. They totally don't spend all day with your children, all of their lunchtime and break time supervising your children. They don't prepare lesson plans after hours, or mark your children's exams on the weekend. They don't have a requirement for professional development, they don't supervisie your children multiple times a year for 24 hours a day while they are on camp. They most definitely don't spend much of their holidays preparing for the upcoming semester.
So behalf on my middle school teaching wife who works far longer than my 40h per week + on call roster, FUCK YOU.
Re:Sorely needed in the US by schnell · 2017-01-01 22:05 · Score: 2

But without a good solid education, moving to new jobs becomes hard. So if the local job dries up how do you get a new one if you don't have a decent education?
Here's the problem. The issue with jobs in the US today is not about education per se, but about fungibility of jobs.
A "fungible" job, or item, is one that can be exchanged equally at no loss or differentiation. (A US dollar bill is fungible, for example, because any dollar bill is equal to any other regardless of its source, condition or owner.) If one mechanical piece or the person who produces those pieces can be swapped out without any loss of productivity or quality then it is fungible. And as such it can be produced anywhere at a lower cost.
Education is not necessarily a defense against fungibility. If you have a theoretically white collar job of IT tech support but that job can be done equally well by someone with equivalent education/training in Hyderabad, then your job is still fungible despite your education.
Some jobs cannot be fungible because the quality of the person doing the job. Think of jobs where one person's talent is appreciably different than another's, like athletes, corporate strategists, artists, rockstar programmers, artists, musicians, financial advisors/fund managers, writers, architects or academics. Other jobs can't be fungible because of their requirements to be local, such as healthcare workers, local retail/tourism, or service providers (automotive/building/plumbing/contracting/cleaning/professional services).
So the bottom line here isn't whether you got a C in high school or not, it's whether you left high school early to take an apprenticeship in plumbing - which will probably get you lifelong local employment - or whether you got As in high school and a scholarship that led to a MFA in Medieval French Literature, which will probably get you a lifelong series of Starbucks barista jobs.
Advanced education is absolutely definitely important to a person's likelihood of future earnings. But not everyone is suited to (or wants to) have a college education. If everyone did, then college graduates would have no employment advantage, right? So the obvious conclusion is that it's not so important how much education you have - rather, it's what education you have in a field that people actually have jobs to hire for.

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Re: Sorely needed in the US by Eunuchswear · 2017-01-02 00:09 · Score: 1

Germany has seemed a lot more stable economically than France and with a better work ethic
Hahaha!
It's well known in France that it's not worth calling your German clients or suppliers after around 17:30 (or 16:30 on Fridays) because they'll have already left the office.

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Re:Sorely needed in the US by mjwx · 2017-01-02 00:46 · Score: 1

I'm in IT and not a teacher and I work K-12 and in my (red) state the legislature completely gutted the teacher's unions but people think they're amazing and that teachers barely work get summers off and have hot tubs in the lounge; couldn't be further from the truth.
This.

My housemate is a teacher, he works longer hours than most of us. 4 out of 5 nights he's preparing classwork or marking essays. Although in the UK it's a lot better than in the US, teaching is still not a highly paid career, most teachers do it because they genuinely care (which often leads to burnout).

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Re:Sorely needed in the US by bluegutang · 2017-01-02 04:20 · Score: 1

If the unions have been gutted and teachers are overworked, what's the proper response? To restore the unions? Maybe a better response is for the best teachers to take jobs at private schools for $20k more, and when the school district realized they're losing their best teachers, raise salaries to remain competitive with other districts?
Re:Sorely needed in the US by dgatwood · 2017-01-02 04:23 · Score: 1

If you understood how life actually is in France... US salaries for technical fields are nearly double those in France, for one.
On the flip side, the only reason Bay Area housing costs are so unreasonable is that salaries are nearly double those in France. :-)

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Re: Sorely needed in the US by Nethead · 2017-01-02 07:52 · Score: 1

And it's well known in the US don't try setting a 09h00 CET meeting time because the French haven't finished coffee yet. I'm in the US and work for a 125 year old French company.

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Re:Sorely needed in the US by archmedes5 · 2017-01-02 08:13 · Score: 2

I don't know of a whole lot of other jobs out there that require a 4 (or more) year degree yet pay just about enough to live on. Add to that, many teachers put in unpaid hours at home. The 3 months off? That isn't paid, so they either have to find work over the summer, or some districts allow them to spread their pay over 12 months, which trades the amount of the weekly paycheck for at least getting one every (2) week(s).

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Stupid is as stupid dies.
Re:Sorely needed in the US by Lord+Flipper · 2017-01-02 09:59 · Score: 1

I'm hourly and required to carry a work cellphone 24/7 despite ...
Man, my GF and I were just talking about exactly that... all the millions of people in your situation... She's a corporate lawyer, well-regarded, and plugged-in to work practically every minute that she's awake. In her late 60s, and it's burden, but she's well-paid, for sure, but... you're right about the war on unions, and I'd add (what you clearly are already aware of...) the scapegoating of unions, etc., being near the root of all of this horrid work "ethic" that is the American "way." It's an outrage, and unions and the return of organized workers, and encouragement of collective bargaining, is way way overdue...
Re:Sorely needed in the US by Tablizer · 2017-01-03 19:00 · Score: 1

But that's perfect to match a tiny wanker.

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Table-ized A.I.

More time for TV by Dorianny · 2017-01-01 11:44 · Score: 1

France already has very strong labor-protection laws. Nobody could be sanctioned because they didn't answer e-mail's while off the clock. This law is illogical, why stop people that want to work off-hours? Personally I often find it more satisfying to do some off-the-clock work then watch TV when I'm bored

Re:More time for TV by waspleg · 2017-01-01 11:52 · Score: 5, Insightful

The problem is it becomes expected that you be working/in touch 24/7.
Re:More time for TV by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-01 12:19 · Score: 1

Exactly. I hate receiving emails from workaholic colleagues on Sunday afternoon or emails from colleagues who are "on vacation" particularly when it's nothing urgent, they just don't know what to do with their free time. Working extra hours for free makes them seemingly more productive, so they are pushing the bar and slowly changing expectations put on everyone.
Re:More time for TV by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-01 12:33 · Score: 2, Insightful

I hate receiving emails because I'm lazy and incompetent.
Fixed that for you.
I was calling for this, so you nailed it :) But seriously - not wanting to work on weekends when my contract is for a 40h week is not lazy nor incompetent. Everyone looses if we all compete in this game except for the company shareholders.
Re:More time for TV by Luthair · 2017-01-01 12:46 · Score: 4, Insightful

I don't work for free because I'm not a slave.
Fixed that for you.
Re:More time for TV by SirSlud · 2017-01-01 13:06 · Score: 1

If you like doing off-the-clock work, great. Not sure what that has to do with labor laws, tho.

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"Old man yells at systemd"
Re:More time for TV by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-01 13:09 · Score: 5, Interesting

The problem is it becomes expected that you be working/in touch 24/7.
That happened to a friend of mine. HIs employer kept calling him out at all hours of the night so we just told him to ask to be paid to be on call. He came back and told us the answer was, 'sorry, no budget for that'. So we advised him that since his wife was giving him a hard time and he was thinking about quitting over this anyway he should just shut his work phone off when he left the office. It took about a week before there was a major emergency and the shit hit the fan. Hours upon hours of downtime, the upper management started riding lower management about what the fuck had happened. He gets called into a meeting with management and he tells them 'pas d'argent pas du Suiss' I'm not on call so I figured it's only fair to shut off the work phone. Next thing you know there is alluvasudden money in the departmental budget for keeping him on call. So come end of the month he checks his pay-slip, no pay for being on call so he goes and asks payroll what's wrong and they send him to the department head. It seems when they said that they had found money in the budget to pay him for being on call, what they meant to say, it was as of the following quarter but of course they expected him to be on call until then, sans pay. So he turns off his work phone again after work hours, shit hits the fan *again* and he finally gets his on-call money, paid retroactively. Give an employer an finger and they will devour your entire arm.
Re:More time for TV by Darinbob · 2017-01-01 13:30 · Score: 1

I think the law isn't forbidding employees from reading the email, but in forbidding companies from requiring it.
Re:More time for TV by dbIII · 2017-01-01 20:03 · Score: 1

It's for those things like people getting fired for not answering an email on a Saturday night.
Re:More time for TV by pla · 2017-01-02 05:00 · Score: 1

If you like doing off-the-clock work, great. Not sure what that has to do with labor laws, tho.

In the US, if you are hourly, you cannot legally work "off the clock". Ever. Period. Not even answering emails on a work-issued phone. Those saying they do that would get their employer completely screwed if they complained to the DoL.

Now, if you're salaried... "Off the clock" doesn't really exist, so feel free to act like a slave... But fuck you if you think I'm responding to your "look at what a good little slave I am, working at 2am on a Saturday!" emails before Monday at 8am.

Why, Slashdot, why? by 93+Escort+Wagon · 2017-01-01 11:47 · Score: 1

Why do you insist on linking to older versions of your own stories which provide no new information or no -redundant context?

So this law takes effect, and employers are now required to set hours "when staff should not send or answer emails". Is there anything preventing the employers from declaring those hours to be 1:00am - 6:00am?

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#DeleteChrome

Re:Cue the incredulous comments from the Americans by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-01 11:48 · Score: 1, Funny

Fortunately it doesn't affect most of us - French laws only apply in Louisiana (along with France and Canada of course) so the rest of us can just ignore it.

Re:Good luck getting contracts! by ffkom · 2017-01-01 11:58 · Score: 5, Insightful

If your selection criterion for whom to contract with is their desperateness to get a contract no matter under what conditions, then chances are you'll contract with the worst botchers amongst their profession. Those who are competent have no need to ruin their private lives by being available for you 24/7.

Re:Cue the incredulous comments from the Americans by ffkom · 2017-01-01 12:05 · Score: 1

... and next day, like every day, they'll sing their company anthem, as depicted in https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

Re:Cue the incredulous comments from the Americans by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-01 12:05 · Score: 5, Interesting

Americans really have no idea how hard they let their work fuck them in the ass. I work for a multinational corporation and last year when they rolled out the new time tracking system they had a conference call on its features. That's when the Americans all found out their German colleagues were required to work only a 7.5 hour day instead of 8. The system, designed by the Germans and presented to us by them, also had a cap of 10 hours a day you could enter. The first question from the Americans was what to do when you work more than 10. There was a long awkward pause while the German presenters tried to grasp the question and eventually suggested that you enter any hours past 10 on the weekend.

In meetings with the Germans they can't understand why no American ever takes more than two weeks of vacation in a row while they routinely take the entire month of August off. They have less hours, have better pay, vastly superior vacation time, vastly superior benefits, and they have job security unlike our right to work for less/fire at will states...but look Americans! There's some dude on food stamps buying a potato with MUNNY DA GUBMINT STOLE FRUM U!

Re:Cue the incredulous comments from the Americans by msauve · 2017-01-01 12:28 · Score: 1

France:PSA::US:GM::Japan:Toyota. QED.

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"National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law

I disagree by SuperKendall · 2017-01-01 12:29 · Score: 3, Interesting

I'm hourly and required to carry a work cellphone 24/7 despite not being paid to do so in any way

Can you really not find other work? That seems unlikely for a technical worker these days. To put up with 24/7 duty with no extra pay is not something you should put up with. You should demand extra compensation, or leave.

Sorely needed in the US...along with that 35 hour work week

I disagree. When I was younger I worked 50-80 hour (or longer) weeks. But the thing is, I enjoyed it, a lot. More than that it set up a great base for a career to follow, because I had essentially got an extra year or two of experience over people who worked "regular" hours, indeed probably 2x the experience over people who worked 35 hour weeks...

It's not like i never take time for vacation, then or now (sometimes a lot). But I don't think there is any value mandating a cap on possible work, I feel like that is the best way to ruin and country and economy and frankly, a whole generation of people.

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"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley

Re:I disagree by Tamerlin · 2017-01-02 06:29 · Score: 1

Can you really not find other work? That seems unlikely for a technical worker these days. To put up with 24/7 duty with no extra pay is not something you should put up with. You should demand extra compensation, or leave.
That's why Amazon has such high turnover and is experimenting with a 35-hour work week also...

I disagree. When I was younger I worked 50-80 hour (or longer) weeks.
I worked with people like you, and discovered very quickly that even though a lot of the people I was working with who were working a lot more hours than I was had quite a bit more experience, I was getting a lot more done. And helping them get their stuff done. And rewriting their stuff when it didn't work due to simply being very badly written. And all that in spite of working a lot fewer hours.

It's not like i never take time for vacation, then or now (sometimes a lot). But I don't think there is any value mandating a cap on possible work, I feel like that is the best way to ruin and country and economy and frankly, a whole generation of people.
Reality says the opposite. Never keep overtimers on staff. Ever. The negative work they produce wastes the time of the competent workers, and just slows things down. Teaching people that overtime ok ruins them for the industry as a whole, and it's bringing the entire industry down.
Re:I disagree by SuperKendall · 2017-01-02 07:15 · Score: 1

I worked with people like you, and discovered very quickly that even though a lot of the people I was working with who were working a lot more hours than I was had quite a bit more experience, I was getting a lot more done.
Perhaps that is true, but I was learning more... which is my point!
And helping them get their stuff done.
Part of what I was doing in that time as helping a lot of other people get THIER stuff done... no-one was helping me.
And rewriting their stuff when it didn't work due to simply being very badly written.
I was also improving the code from the plodding oafs who worked rather a lot slower and less.
And all that in spite of working a lot fewer hours.
I did all of that but spent more hours at it, which meant I got more experience than you. I leverage that for more free time and a higher salary now because I have a deeper base of understanding and experience than most people in the industry.
Never keep overtimers on staff. Ever.
Because hiring and keeping people who are excited about the work and love to support your company is such a bad idea!
Believe what you like. I did a lot of good for that company and they were very, very happy to have me... as have been the other companies I have worked with and for. The stuff I produced stands the test of time and lots of it is in production decades later. Can you say the same I wonder?
Your real problem I think is you don't want to believe working long hours can be healthy, because it would mean someone can handle more than you can. Like Eastwood said, "A man's got to know his limitations". Don't feel jealous because someone truly can do more than you, feel happy for them. There are people that can work more hours than I can and still do excellent work, I don't trash talk them or try to read them down, I admire them. I don't try to emulate them because I learned through those long hours what my limits were. I can go up to them but I don't exceed them because it will be counter-productive.
So don't think so poorly of someone JUST because they work long hours. Yes I agree that working long hours alone is not an indicator of good quality but it also does not necessarily indicate BAD quality either.

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"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Re:I disagree by Tamerlin · 2017-01-02 08:18 · Score: 1

I wasn't jealous... I was annoyed that they were wasting my time and getting rewarded for it.

Also let's outlaw exercise so I don't feel fat. by Brannon · 2017-01-01 12:39 · Score: 1

That's pretty much what this amounts to.

There are, in fact, many people [like me] that enjoy working. My hobby is to casually log in and do some work. You're trying to outlaw my hobby...so, ummm, fuck you?

Re:Also let's outlaw exercise so I don't feel fat. by Eunuchswear · 2017-01-02 00:11 · Score: 1

Nobody's outlawing anything. The law says your employer can't force you to work out of hours.

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Watch this Heartland Institute video
Re:Also let's outlaw exercise so I don't feel fat. by dgatwood · 2017-01-02 07:04 · Score: 1

The problem is that then you get bosses who say, "No, of course you don't have to work on Saturday, but it will look good when you come up for promotion next year" or "It isn't mandatory, but all your coworkers will be working more hours. You don't want to be seen as less productive than your coworkers, do you?"
Extra work without extra pay should be outlawed. If they want you to work an 80-hour week, they should pay overtime rates for those extra 40 hours. If they want you to be "on call" all week, they should pay some reasonable percentage of your normal hourly pay for the on-call time, plus overtime for any hours that they actually used you during your time off. And so on. And if your boss won't spring for the extra pay, you shouldn't be allowed to volunteer your time. You should be allowed to volunteer for other organizations, but not for your employer, because that invariably leads to the employer expecting that volunteering in the future.

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Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

Re:No surprises here by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-01 12:55 · Score: 3, Insightful

Work has never been popular in France.

Slave work has never been popular in France.

Re:Good luck getting contracts! by SirSlud · 2017-01-01 12:57 · Score: 5, Insightful

Companies who give a shit about their customers and their employees can have enough people not to require people to be available 24/7. Note how this only applies to companies over 50 people. If you do business with people, your comment doesn't apply. If you do business with companies, nothing prevents a larger sized company from being available 24/7 without their employees being available 24/7.

Anyhow, what the OP says is mostly true. The minimum is doing no work. The maximum is being "at work" every minute you're awake. It's amusingly naive to believe that those who make themselves available all of the time are inherently better at what they do, or are more valuable. Anybody with a decent amount of experience in life and exposure to different working environments and disciplines knows this.

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"Old man yells at systemd"

Re:Good luck getting contracts! by hey! · 2017-01-01 13:00 · Score: 5, Insightful

I've had clients like you who felt they should be able to buttonhole my developers whenever they had a brainwave. As far as I'm concerned people like you can find yourselves another victim to work out your personal dominance issues. Hire me and I'll do a great job for you, because I know how to manage a friggin' development team. You don't.

The seldom-mentioned corrollary to "the customer is always right" is that you should be picky about who you work for, if you can manage it. I almost said "if you can afford it", but really the question is actually whether you can afford to work for an obstreperous, intrusive client who doesn't understand boundaries. Customers like that will eat up your slack then bleed you dry every... single... time.

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Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.

Re:Good luck getting contracts! by Dunbal · 2017-01-01 13:25 · Score: 5, Insightful

Those who give a shit about their customers and try to do their very best for them DO make themselves available 24/7. These are the people I will do business with. In my experience, the most important selection criteria for anything is the quality of the product itself, and the second close behind is the type of support you'll receive.

Of course usually you expect to pay premium price for premium service. In MY experience, the world is full of shitstains who want 24/7 availability but don't want to pay for it.

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Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.

Re:Good luck getting contracts! by haruchai · 2017-01-01 13:45 · Score: 1

Those who give a shit about their customers and try to do their very best for them DO make themselves available 24/7. These are the people I will do business with. In my experience, the most important selection criteria for anything is the quality of the product itself, and the second close behind is the type of support you'll receive.

Of course usually you expect to pay premium price for premium service. In MY experience, the world is full of shitstains who want 24/7 availability but don't want to pay for it.

As someone who's had to deal with more than a few such cheapskates, I take particular pleasure in waking them up when there's a service outage.
It's even better when the outage is resolved quickly or goes on so long that it overlaps shifts - the plebs get relieved but most of the senior mgmt can't leave the conf calls for very long

--
Pain is merely failure leaving the body

Re: Good luck getting contracts! by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-01 13:49 · Score: 2, Insightful

A better analogy is that Americans keep buying lottery tickets because they believe they will win, while French people understand they will not win at a tricked game and keep their money.

Re:Good luck getting contracts! by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-01 14:03 · Score: 1

Having driven nothing but Mercedes so far, I despise people who look at me as being a target just because of my car. They should look at what I do and what I achieved for the companies I wok(ed) for and for the people that I served as their formal boss. In all my manager roles (25 years by now) I have never expected anyone working for me to be available 24/7. In fact, i have pushed some of my best people to take more time off in order to keep them at their best instead of letting them burn out. I've worked very crazy hour myself in the past, taking days off only when the company forced me. After 16 years of doing that, I changed that - finally adhering to what I was telling my team to do all along. My efficiency only improved as a result, as sis my overall output..

There's a major difference between speed and progress..

Re: Good luck getting contracts! by Dahamma · 2017-01-01 14:06 · Score: 2

How is that a better analogy? There are over 8M millionaires in the US, and less than 500K in France. And while the American number is increasing, that French number is *decreasing* - http://money.cnn.com/2016/04/0...

What these policies are accomplishing is to get the entrepreneurs to leave France for other countries. Now, you might argue (as many in France do) that quality of life is more important than money. But for some quality of life it to be left the hell alone and not have your life run by a nanny state.

Re: Good luck getting contracts! by Kjella · 2017-01-01 14:10 · Score: 4, Insightful

You keep insulting me, the customer. I will not be doing business with you and will slander your name.

Dickhead clients will slander you anyway because they use up all your reasonableness until you have to put your foot down, usually in the middle of a big mess they've created. You will always be the villain, but keep the story small and it'll soon be replaced by lamenting their next "useless" contractors.

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Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings

Re: Good luck getting contracts! by hey! · 2017-01-01 14:15 · Score: 1

Good luck with that.

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Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.

Re: Good luck getting contracts! by hey! · 2017-01-01 14:19 · Score: 4, Insightful

I actually feel sorry for clients like that -- although preferably from a safe distance. The thing is what they're up to isn't business, it's working out their intractable personal issues. What they need is not a vendor, it's a therapist.

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Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.

Re:Good luck getting contracts! by hey! · 2017-01-01 14:34 · Score: 2

The danger with indulging clients like that is that you end up focusing on them and short-changing your reasonable (and more profitable!) customers.

You're much better off making a reasonable customer delighted than making an unreasonable customer less disgruntled.

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Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.

Re: Good luck getting contracts! by ShanghaiBill · 2017-01-01 14:39 · Score: 3, Insightful

What these policies are accomplishing is to get the entrepreneurs to leave France for other countries.

I live in San Jose, California, and I know four French tech entrepreneurs just in my neighborhood. All of them left France with the goal of starting a company here.

Now, you might argue (as many in France do) that quality of life is more important than money.

Having plenty of leisure time is not as important to quality of life as having a job. Unemployment in France is over 10%, twice the American level, and youth employment is over 25%. They are funding their budget deficits by borrowing from the Germans, and that is not sustainable. They are demanding more and more benefits without being able to pay for those they already have.

Oh, and one other thing: California wine is better too.

What this also shows by SuperKendall · 2017-01-01 14:45 · Score: 1

This is a good anecdote that shows not only that a company can and will take advantage of you, but also just how much power an employee really has even if it doesn't seem like they have much. The thing is that it takes a long time to find a good employee to hire in, longer still to train them as a replacement for most work... if you are being told to do something you do not think as fair, don't do it or demand compensation. Most middle managers will fold.

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"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley

Re:Good luck getting contracts! by ShanghaiBill · 2017-01-01 14:50 · Score: 1

In all my manager roles (25 years by now) I have never expected anyone working for me to be available 24/7.

Good for you. But it sounds like you are managing a development team, where 24/7 availability makes no sense. If you were managing a team admining customer-facing servers, your situation would be different. We have a few people in that situation, and they were told at the time they were hired that they need to sleep with their cellphone on and the company number whitelisted. If they weren't willing to accept that, they could have declined the job offer. We only needed to call someone twice in the past year, so it is idiotic to say we should just hire extra people to cover a few hours annually.

Re:Good luck getting contracts! by Joe_Dragon · 2017-01-01 14:54 · Score: 1

Then move the jobs back to the USA! EU has to meany workers rights now India needs to do the same as France

Re:Cue the incredulous comments from the Americans by drinkypoo · 2017-01-01 15:05 · Score: 1

There's some dude on food stamps buying a potato with MUNNY DA GUBMINT STOLE FRUM U!

They terk our jerbs to buy that potatoe!

--
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"

Re: Good luck getting contracts! by Dorianny · 2017-01-01 15:27 · Score: 2

How is that a better analogy? There are over 8M millionaires in the US, and less than 500K in France. And while the American number is increasing, that French number is *decreasing* - http://money.cnn.com/2016/04/0...

What these policies are accomplishing is to get the entrepreneurs to leave France for other countries. Now, you might argue (as many in France do) that quality of life is more important than money. But for some quality of life it to be left the hell alone and not have your life run by a nanny state.

In other words you have a %2.6 chance of being a millionaire in the U.S vs a %1 in France. Well I guess %99 of France is smarter then the %97.4 of the U.S in demanding policies that work for them instead of hoping that one day they will get lucky and be one of those tiny percentages

Re: Being able to obtain, vs being able to pay by hackwrench · 2017-01-01 15:31 · Score: 1

Well they are going to run into problems down the road that will force the world to take a hard look at the messed up economic system that forces people to create financial obligations they won't be able to live up to in order to get the situation they want, but unless they want to do that looking now, who cares about the non-live-up-to-able obligations?

Re:Good luck getting contracts! by __Paul__ · 2017-01-01 15:31 · Score: 1

Sure, I'll pick up after hours, but I start charging the moment it rings. You're not getting work for free.

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worldmobilenet.com -- World Prepaid Wireless Internet plans

Re: Good luck getting contracts! by SirSlud · 2017-01-01 15:37 · Score: 1

Whoa, the four French tech entrepreneurs you know in San Jose left France to start a company there? What are the odds?

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"Old man yells at systemd"

Re:Not Everyone Is The Same by PPH · 2017-01-01 15:42 · Score: 1

Simple solution. Work the graveyard shift.

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Have gnu, will travel.

Re: Good luck getting contracts! by ranton · 2017-01-01 16:05 · Score: 2

In other words you have a %2.6 chance of being a millionaire in the U.S vs a %1 in France.

Note quite. If you work both hard and at least a little smart in the US you are almost sure to become a millionaire by retirement. It would take less than 10% of median income in retirement savings over a 45 year career to reach millionaire status (in 2017 dollars). Either way for it to be nearly 3x harder to become a millionaire, which is by no means rich for a someone in the developed world, in France vs the USA is a serious problem.

Well I guess %99 of France is smarter then the %97.4 of the U.S in demanding policies that work for them instead of hoping that one day they will get lucky and be one of those tiny percentages

As long as the 97.4% don't need salaries paid for by millionaire owners your logic is valid.

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-- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke

Re:Good luck getting contracts! by 50000BTU_barbecue · 2017-01-01 16:23 · Score: 1

Good, likewise. I like to work at 3AM. What was that thing you wanted again? Let me call and find out.

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Mostly random stuff.

Re:Good luck getting contracts! by l0n3s0m3phr34k · 2017-01-01 16:27 · Score: 1

"every minute your awake"? HA. The head of our IT called me last month at 4:15AM. Of course, it was 10:15 in Limerick. All because a server we host was "not working", and it turns out it was THEIR side of the VPN that was having issues. Didn't even bother asking his network admin to look at anything, just calls me first because we host it.,

Re: Good luck getting contracts! by Cmdln+Daco · 2017-01-01 16:40 · Score: 1

And then, when you reach retirement, you can finally slow down and start to enjoy life, with your million dollars (pinky at corner of mouth.) If you live long enough, of course, and your therapist doesn't retire at the same time as you do.

Re: Good luck getting contracts! by Cmdln+Daco · 2017-01-01 16:42 · Score: 1

A better analogy is that Americans keep buying lottery tickets because they believe they will win, while French people understand they will not win at a tricked game and keep their money.

All you have to do is look at how many people GTFO out of Europe the second they show any signs of success in life. Ask yourself: where do they go, and why?

Apparently, as you imply, everybody still left in Europe is unhappy and a failure at life.

(citation needed)

Re: Good luck getting contracts! by Cmdln+Daco · 2017-01-01 16:49 · Score: 1

Guess what: if they are always right, they aren't a customer. They are a slaveowner.

Re:Good luck getting contracts! by Cmdln+Daco · 2017-01-01 16:51 · Score: 2

You're generally better off dumping said 'customers' in the lap of your competing suppliers.

Re: Good luck getting contracts! by SirSlud · 2017-01-01 17:05 · Score: 1

Man, I love saying stuff nobody can prove or disprove! I'm so right!

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"Old man yells at systemd"

Re: Good luck getting contracts! by Dorianny · 2017-01-01 17:16 · Score: 2

In other words you have a %2.6 chance of being a millionaire in the U.S vs a %1 in France.

Note quite. If you work both hard and at least a little smart in the US you are almost sure to become a millionaire by retirement. It would take less than 10% of median income in retirement savings over a 45 year career to reach millionaire status (in 2017 dollars). Either way for it to be nearly 3x harder to become a millionaire, which is by no means rich for a someone in the developed world, in France vs the USA is a serious problem.

In the U.S thanks to the disappearance of private sector pension systems, you better be a millionaire (in 2017 dollars) or soon after retirement you will be living just on the Social Security Income which is only supposed to be a safety net retirement income. In France the Social Security System is more like a pension system then a safety net

Well I guess %99 of France is smarter then the %97.4 of the U.S in demanding policies that work for them instead of hoping that one day they will get lucky and be one of those tiny percentages

As long as the 97.4% don't need salaries paid for by millionaire owners your logic is valid.

Millionaires don't pay salaries, the companies they are shareholders of do, they end up making more in dividends from those shares, then all the salaries paid to the employees working hard for the company. Salaries have remained stagnant for decades now meanwhile Corporate profits have skyrocketed. Most of those profits have been paid out as dividends to the rich shareholders thanks to the "Shareholder Primacy" theory which holds the employees to be just Red Ink on the balance sheet

Re: Good luck getting contracts! by ShanghaiBill · 2017-01-01 17:23 · Score: 2

Well I guess %99 of France is smarter then the %97.4 of the U.S in demanding policies that work for them

Sure, except that the policies aren't working. French unemployment is sky high, productivity is stagnant, and their public debt is unsustainable. So instead of dealing with any of those issues, they vote themselves more bread and circuses.

Riding the pendulum, productivity to soul-draining by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-01 18:00 · Score: 1

Giving someone a cell phone and expecting them to be staring at it 24/7 causes personal life to become Interruptable, and with shrinking staff and increasing expectations. its either burn out or fail. There needs to be some balance, some renumeration for salaried folks. There is something sour about being on a conference call from 8 AM Saturday to 1 PM and as the ONLY full time employee on the call, you are indeed the only one not being paid for losing a day off. The Fail is that the enthusiasm wanes and you get numb and drop in so many ways. Does any one else find this to be true?

Re: Good luck getting contracts! by Dorianny · 2017-01-01 18:47 · Score: 1

Well I guess %99 of France is smarter then the %97.4 of the U.S in demanding policies that work for them

Sure, except that the policies aren't working. French unemployment is sky high, productivity is stagnant, and their public debt is unsustainable. So instead of dealing with any of those issues, they vote themselves more bread and circuses.

We just elected Trump, a populist egomaniac with no experience and ambiguous, often contradicting policy agendas. Are you sure you want to talk about the circus?

French Bashing Is Easy, but ... by AncalagonTotof · 2017-01-01 18:58 · Score: 1

please note that :

- the law says 35h/week, but it is not enforced everywhere, far from that. Almost all companies have a negotiated agreement. The law say that if you work 35h/w, you get nothing, and if you work 39h/w, you get about 22 days of additional free time. The agreement usually says you get 10 to 15 days, period.
So I can work 35h/w and get 15 days ? Yes, may be. But most people work 39h/w, and often more.
So, who is the winner ? The company of course. The law and its application are different.

- there are many countries which have work hours less than the French 35h/week. what not talking about these ones ?

- what about productivity ? Many studies show that French are much more productive than many other countries.

Cliché ?

Alright, my turn : stop bashing France, you Americans who will kill themselves working like crazy 50, 60, 70h/w or more. Your productivity is less than French.

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Totof

Re:There are employers in France? by AncalagonTotof · 2017-01-01 19:00 · Score: 1

"socialist shithole" ? Seriously ?
Did you had a look at what happened the last 5 years ?
The socialist president and governments have done more for companies, and less for people than the previous, right wing one. Socialist does not mean anything anymore. It's just a label politics chose when they get out of the ENA (National School for Administration : it's where most politics come from, they never had a real job).
Once in charge, they only do things to please their friends and sponsors

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Totof

Re:Good luck getting contracts! by tsotha · 2017-01-01 19:02 · Score: 1

There are a lot of similar regulations in the US that kick in at the same employee count. I'm sure the government would like them to apply to all companies, but there are economies of scale in dealing with bureaucracies, and the feds know they can't get away with putting every mom & pop shop out of business. It's difficult to imagine the French government is operating under different constraints.

Re: Good luck getting contracts! by MightyMartian · 2017-01-01 19:07 · Score: 1

I've personally fired one asshole client who thought the money he paid my organization meant he somehow owned the staff. We gave him a refund for the services we had not delivered and sent him on his merry way, because what he really was was a pathetic prick with the patience of a three year old, and an infantile disposition to match. Yes, we lost some sales, but when the staff heard he was gone, it did more than a bonus would have done for morale.

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The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.

Re:Good luck getting contracts! by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-01 19:23 · Score: 1

You can add to this the ITT's that land on your desk on the 24th of December and the closing date for responses is 2nd Jan.
The company issuing the ITT then all piss off for the holidays while you and the rest of your team work through the holidays.

One particular American company loved to do this to us (we are in Europe). After the 3rd such ITT where we responded and didn't get the business we found out that they'd issued the ITT to a few other companies and none had responded. We were the only ones to do so.
The ITT Issuer could not compare responses with only one so they canned the project for 3-6 months.

The next year we declined and had two weeks off. I went to Florida where I ran into the purchasing manager of the US Company.
He was astounded to see me. "Why aren't you working on my Tender?" he asked.
As I was sitting by the hotel pool, I simply stood up and pushed him into the pool fully clothed.
We never even tried to business with that company again.
I was CEO of the European Company.

Psychologically unhealthy by ook_boo · 2017-01-01 19:29 · Score: 1

I work for a European multi-national. Some of my colleagues (sometimes the French ones too) are on all the time, and some colleagues are on-call during working hours only, and who take a month off every year (even some Americans!), during which time they are not available for anything. 1) I see no correlation between competence/getting things done and being on all the time. 2) Those who are on all the time tend to to be much more personally invested in work outcomes, so they are the ones who blow up every time some little thing doesn't go exactly their way. Overall, this makes these colleagues more difficult to accomplish things with, and I prefer the ones who have lives outside the company. This is basic time management. Of course, being asked (and paid) to be on call in case of an emergency is a different matter: I'm talking about normal work projects.

Re:Good luck getting contracts! by buss_error · 2017-01-01 19:35 · Score: 1

then I'll find someone else.

Good. Please do that. Thank you.

35 years in IT. I've never seen anyone outside a large business or an ISV that truly needed 24x7x365, and when they did, they simply staffed appropriately. It's only cheap skates that want a free ride that work people to death.

--
Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.

What if your boss physically just comes over? by mark-t · 2017-01-01 19:42 · Score: 1

You can probably ban all forms of technological communication between employer and employee after work, but can you prohibit absolutely all forms of contact outside of work hours if the purpose happens to be work-related?

Generally speaking, it is not illegal to require employees that are not telecommuting to live in a certain geographical area, so it may often be entirely possible for an employer to bypass this prohibition on emails by just physically showing up at the employee's door and talking to him in person.

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Re: Good luck getting contracts! by Dahamma · 2017-01-01 19:46 · Score: 1

Having plenty of leisure time is not as important to quality of life as having a job

I think we have similar opinions on some of these issues, but this still does depend on what "leisure time" really means. While the American mentality is often to work to keep accumulating wealth ("he who dies with the most wins"), the European mentality is much more about leisure time as the payoff, not "stuff". Of course, there are SO MANY other theories on this - Puritianism vs Catholicism, income and sales/VAT tax levels, social welfare, social/family structures (aka "living with your parents") - that it's never simple...

Oh, and one other thing: California wine is better too.

I've got to give French wines credit at the top end, and they generally age better. For the price, though, you're right, it's not even close :)

Re:Good luck getting contracts! by dbIII · 2017-01-01 19:52 · Score: 1

All that is fair enough and not even against this French law.

This law and similar ones are for those situations where people were informed when they started a job that it was 9-5 without being on call, but now they are expected to be on call for no extra pay and without ever agreeing to be on call.
It's not there to punish employers who where honest up front. It's about those who decide to change employment conditions without consent and get some free extra work out of their employees. From looking at this there's no idiocy of "hire extra people to cover a few hours annually" because your employees have already agreed to extra work if required.

Re: Good luck getting contracts! by ShanghaiBill · 2017-01-01 20:09 · Score: 1

We just elected Trump, a populist egomaniac with no experience and ambiguous, often contradicting policy agendas.

... and Marine Le Pen is leading the the French presidential polls.

Re: Good luck getting contracts! by Lennie · 2017-01-01 20:54 · Score: 3, Insightful

Why is the number of millionaires a good measurement ?

How about quality of life, longer life and overall higher standard of living, good education, less stress, easier to get healthcare, etc. ?

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New things are always on the horizon

It's a shame it has to be made into a law by NecroMancer · 2017-01-01 22:09 · Score: 1

This shouldn't have to be forced on people in a law! It should be common sense for all employers!

Re: Good luck getting contracts! by Stephan+Schulz · 2017-01-01 23:14 · Score: 1

In other words you have a %2.6 chance of being a millionaire in the U.S vs a %1 in France.

Note quite. If you work both hard and at least a little smart in the US you are almost sure to become a millionaire by retirement. It would take less than 10% of median income in retirement savings over a 45 year career to reach millionaire status (in 2017 dollars). Either way for it to be nearly 3x harder to become a millionaire, which is by no means rich for a someone in the developed world, in France vs the USA is a serious problem.

Well, that seems to be dubious math to me. According to this article, median personal income was about US$ 32000/year in 2005, and has mostly gone down since then. 10% of that is US$ 32000, and summed over 45 years, gives you US$ 144000, or US$ 856000 short of the first million. You need a very good return on investment to make up that gap (and that ignores inflation).

Moreover, the basic comparison is skewed. In the US, you mostly rely on your own accumulated funds for retirement. Social security is not a big contributor for high-earners. In France, state pensions kick in at age 62, and you get full benefits after 41 years of employment or at age 67, whichever comes first. State pensions are a significant part of retirement funding, but don't show up as personal wealth. And, IIRC, basic health insurance is free for pensioners - another factual and tangible benefit not accounted for by just looking at personal wealth.

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Stephan

Re: Good luck getting contracts! by Eunuchswear · 2017-01-01 23:50 · Score: 1

and Marine Le Pen is leading the the French presidential polls.

Citation?

Because she isn't.

--
Watch this Heartland Institute video

Re: Good luck getting contracts! by Eunuchswear · 2017-01-01 23:51 · Score: 1

If the US presidential elections were run using French rules Hillary would have won.

--
Watch this Heartland Institute video

Re:Good luck getting contracts! by Eunuchswear · 2017-01-01 23:58 · Score: 2

If an American and a Frenchman both see someone drive by in a Mercedes, the American thinks, "Someday, I'll have a car like that". The Frenchman thinks ...

The Frenchman thinks "oh, look, a taxi driver".

Seriously, a Mercedes is not exactly an amazing status symbol here.

The owner of the small business making electric window shutters near me drives a Maserati GranTurismo. Whenever I pass it with French friends they tend to say things like "Vroom! Vroom!"

--
Watch this Heartland Institute video

Re:Cue the incredulous comments from the Americans by Knossos · 2017-01-02 00:34 · Score: 1

As someone that had lived and worked in Germany for the last 6 years. My experience is solely in the software development sector.

You are almost completely on the ball. The German system reflects the concept that a happy healthy employee is a productive employee.

The job security swings both ways too. You can't just be fired and thrown out with no pay. However, you can't just leave either. You need to give a good (usually over a month) time to bring someone else up to speed with what you were doing.

About vacations though... I have never met anyone that takes an entire month of vacation. The most we take is two weeks. Though, that is probably because you want to leave vacation days to deal with appointments and family illnesses. Health insurance will cover you looking after your children if they are ill, but not your partner, as an example.

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Android Software Engineer

Re: Good luck getting contracts! by stoborrobots · 2017-01-02 00:36 · Score: 1

Depends on what you call a "very good return on investment".

At 5% per year, $3,200 per year for 45 years comes to a bit under $550k

To end up with $1M after 45 years investing $3,200 per year, you need a return of under 7.1%

Compound interest makes a big difference...

--
"Go to CNN [for a] spell-checked, fact-checked summary" -- CmdrTaco

Re: Good luck getting contracts! by mjwx · 2017-01-02 00:38 · Score: 1

You keep insulting me, the customer. I will not be doing business with you and will slander your name.

Dickhead clients will slander you anyway because they use up all your reasonableness until you have to put your foot down, usually in the middle of a big mess they've created. You will always be the villain, but keep the story small and it'll soon be replaced by lamenting their next "useless" contractors.

This,

What dickhead clients forget is that vendors also rate and talk about them. Slander one provider, you'll find that others will also stop taking their calls. When it was revealed that Uber also allowed drivers to rate passengers I was completely unsurprised. Businesses rate their clients all the time, just not on public forums.

--
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.

Re: Good luck getting contracts! by Stephan+Schulz · 2017-01-02 00:59 · Score: 1

Depends on what you call a "very good return on investment".

At 5% per year, $3,200 per year for 45 years comes to a bit under $550k

To end up with $1M after 45 years investing $3,200 per year, you need a return of under 7.1%

Compound interest makes a big difference...

It does. But at the moment, getting 5% or even 7% for a small time investor seems to be unlikely. And the compound interest effect is contributing less if, realistically, your income increases over time as you get experience and promotions - you're able to safe less in your early career, with lower pay and (often) higher expenses.

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Stephan

Re:Good luck getting contracts! by pezezin · 2017-01-02 01:07 · Score: 1

The last paragraph is pure gold. You sir made my day, if I had mod points I would have given you a +1 Funny.

Re: Good luck getting contracts! by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-02 01:55 · Score: 1

I live in San Jose, California, and I know four French tech entrepreneurs just in my neighborhood. All of them left France with the goal of starting a company here.

What an amazing coincidence! Did all of the people from Venezuela you know in San Jose also leave Venezuela to live in San Jose? Who would have thought?

Oh, and one other thing: California wine is better too.

The rest of your post was dubious at best, but this line completely destroyed any credibility you may have had left. Even Australian wine is better than Californian wine.

Re: Good luck getting contracts! by Blaskowicz · 2017-01-02 02:54 · Score: 1

Not necessarily. There might have been Sanders vs Trump on the second voting round.

Re: Good luck getting contracts! by Eunuchswear · 2017-01-02 03:32 · Score: 1

How? Hillary beat Sanders in the primaries.

--
Watch this Heartland Institute video

Re: Good luck getting contracts! by dgatwood · 2017-01-02 04:05 · Score: 2

Having plenty of leisure time is not as important to quality of life as having a job.

Having experienced doing only a month or two of work-from-home contracting over the course of almost a year, I beg to differ. Having more leisure time, at least from my perspective, is far more important to quality of life than having a job unless you are in a financial situation where not having a job means constantly fretting about whether you'll be able to pay your bills.

Having a job is only crucial to quality of life if you aren't highly creative. If you are, you'll find ways to fill up every minute of your time even without someone telling you what to do. In fact, when I took a job at the end of that ten-month period, I asked for almost an entire additional month before my start date (for a total of ~11 months) to wrap up personal projects. I have enough personal projects to keep me fully occupied for the next decade without coming up with anything new (Hah!), so that month was just enough to wrap up one big project that had been in progress for thirteen years (my trilogy of sci-fi novels).

By contrast, having free time is always crucial, because it means you can take time to fly to wherever your family lives for the holidays. It means you can go on vacations during the year. It means you can spend time with friends. It means you can take the occasional day off for various church events. And so on.

Now to some degree, there is a point of diminishing returns beyond which more free time is of less value because your friends have to go to work or school and you can't spend time with them anyway. Many of the sorts of things I enjoy doing do require other people, so it would obviously be better if everybody had more free time, rather than just me. But I decided that it was time to start earning some income again, so I went back to work (and then almost immediately regretted taking a job that provided so little free time).

But everybody is different. For people who see their work as their entire life, not having a job means not having an identity, not having friends, etc. Those folks absolutely depend on work for quality of life, and having more free time probably doesn't benefit them much at all. This is why there's no one-size-fits-all answer.

--

Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

I'd be totally on board with this by ErichTheRed · 2017-01-02 04:35 · Score: 1

I'm OK with this, which is probably going to get me labeled a lazy French socialist. (I'm in the US.) But, I've worked jobs where I've had to be available 24/7 on an on-call rotation basis. Weeks where I've had to do this sucked badly. It was earlier in my career pre-kids, but the feeling is exactly like having a newborn at home in terms of the sleep quality you get. You're never fully asleep after being woken up at 3 AM for yet another false alarm (or real emergency!) And, I was lucky it was rotation work -- lots of companies have cut so much staff that they just make everyone on-call for the applications they support these days.

I think that a lot of people, especially young ones in their first jobs, don't realize how much they're being taken advantage of by employers. The other people against this are hard-driving "tech entrepreneurs" who have the crazy Type-A personalities anyway and would work 30 hours a day if it was possible. If you're just out of college and don't have a family, significant other, or even a time consuming hobby, you might not realize that it's healthy to turn off work when it's time to go home, and spend the remainder of the day focusing on your own pursuits. Same thing with the entrepreneurs, they live to work and have no idea why anyone would want to be doing anything other than responding to 3 AM emails. The reality is that the vast majority of people are not driven to work 18 hour days -- they want more out of life.

Does this make me lazy? I doubt it -- I work like crazy to fit my tasks into a standard workday, and count myself lucky that I'm not in support anymore responding to pager calls at night. I do have a self-imposed flexible schedule -- my wife has a long commute so I sometimes do a lot of family things during the day. So, I will occasionally send out a 2 AM email, but it's my choice because I left work 3 hours early that day. What i don't get is people who call this move by the French "lazy" -- do they really want to be chained to work 24 hours a day? Do they not have lives outside of work?

GDH by raind · 2017-01-02 05:28 · Score: 1

Gross Domestic Happiness - let's Evolve....

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Get up!

Re: Good luck getting contracts! by ZorroXXX · 2017-01-02 07:57 · Score: 1

If you are implying that long work hours like common in USA makes it easier for people people to get rich, that is demonstrably false. Norway have more millionaires per capita than USA. It even has more billionaires per capita than USA. And we have 37.5 hours per week as standard, just 2.5 hours more than the French.

Also notice that in Norway the government intervenes with many things that you probably think classifies as "nanny state". And we have higher much taxes. Despite of this we have more rich people than you.

Recommended watch: TEDx talk Where in the world is it easiest to get rich? by Harald Eia.

--
When you are sure of something, you probably are wrong (search for "Unskilled and Unaware of It").

Re:Cue the incredulous comments from the Americans by UnderCoverPenguin · 2017-01-02 09:44 · Score: 1

At the company I work for, the European office has customers that are willing to pay 3 times the prices the US office is able to get from its customers. The European engineering staff is twice the size of ours in the US. Corporate manage seems happy to let the European office have that many engineers, but expects us in the US to handle twice the total workload as the European office.

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Don't try to out wierd me, three-eyes. I get stranger things than you, free with my breakfast cereal. --Zaphod Beeblebr

Re:Cue the incredulous comments from the Americans by UnderCoverPenguin · 2017-01-02 09:52 · Score: 1

In meetings with the Germans they can't understand why no American ever takes more than two weeks of vacation in a row while they routinely take the entire month of August off.

I also work for a multinational corporation.

In the US office, the middle and higher level managers routinely take all of August off. It's the rest of us that have trouble trouble taking even 2 weeks off, Not because management won't approve 2 or more weeks, but because after even a week off, the pile of problems we come back to is very oppressive. After 2 weeks, it's almost not worth having taken the time off.

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Don't try to out wierd me, three-eyes. I get stranger things than you, free with my breakfast cereal. --Zaphod Beeblebr

Re: Good luck getting contracts! by michael_wojcik · 2017-01-03 02:36 · Score: 1

Now, you might argue (as many in France do) that quality of life is more important than money. But for some quality of life it to be left the hell alone and not have your life run by a nanny state.

Indeed. My quality of life depends, in no small part, on my flexible hours. That includes being able to do whatever sort of work I want, including reading emails, whenever I want to.

I don't read work email all the time. I keep my MUA disconnected from the server, so I don't even see that I have new messages until I tell it go fetch. And I don't even have access to work email from my phone or personal laptop; I have to be using my work laptop to get to it at all.

But if I happen to be up at 5:00 or 23:00 and decide to write some code, I'll probably check email just for the hell of it. And I certainly wouldn't want a bunch of jackass legislators telling me I can't.

Re: Good luck getting contracts! by michael_wojcik · 2017-01-03 02:41 · Score: 1

I think we have similar opinions on some of these issues, but this still does depend on what "leisure time" really means. While the American mentality is often to work to keep accumulating wealth ("he who dies with the most wins"), the European mentality is much more about leisure time as the payoff, not "stuff".

I'm not particularly interested in accumulating wealth - though I seem to have done so, more or less accidentally, in the process of doing things I enjoy. I do protect my leisure time, and use it for relaxation and entertainment.

What I certainly don't want is the government telling me when my leisure time is scheduled. Maybe I want to work all day Saturday, and then take Monday and Tuesday afternoons off. Maybe I'd like to start working at 5:30 and be done at 13:30.

I'm in favor of strong labor rights, broadly speaking - but they're supposed to empower workers, not confine them to some idiot bureaucrat's idea of the ideal work experience.

Re:Good luck getting contracts! by SuiteSisterMary · 2017-01-03 06:06 · Score: 1

There are a ton of cultural differences. I remember reading a fascinating book called 'The Culture Code' by a Frenchman who moved to the US at a relatively young age.

He points out, for example, in the US, the kitchen is a central gathering place in the home, and nice, stainless steel appliances are a status symbol. In France, on the other hand, guests would never ever see the kitchen, so the appliances are chosen strictly for utility.

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Work Emails After Hours Finally Banned in France (fortune.com)

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