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Oculus Accused of Destroying Evidence, Zuckerberg To Testify In $2 Billion Lawsuit (arstechnica.com)
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Ars Technica: ZeniMax Media, the parent company of both Bethesda Softworks and Id Software, says it will prove at trial that John Carmack and others at Oculus stole trade secrets to "misappropriate" virtual reality technology that was first developed while Carmack was working at Id Software. What's more, ZeniMax is now accusing Oculus of "intentional destruction of evidence to cover up their wrongdoing." Mark Zuckerberg, CEO of Oculus parent company Facebook, is scheduled to respond to those accusations in testimony starting tomorrow, according to a report by Business insider. ZeniMax's statement comes after Carmack testified at trial last week, saying the case was "ridiculous and absurd." His testimony echoed Oculus' initial reaction when ZeniMax's accusations first surfaced in 2014. In court filings leading up to the trial, ZeniMax detailed its case that Carmack, while still an employee at Id Software, "designed the specifications and functionality embodied in the Rift SDK and directed its development." Carmack's technology and guidance allegedly "literally transformed" Oculus founder Palmer Luckey's early Rift prototype from a "primitive virtual reality headset" that was "little more than a display panel." Carmack allegedly used "copyrighted computer code, trade secret information, and technical know-how" from his time at ZeniMax after he moved to Oculus as CTO in 2013. As the trial began last week (as reported by a Law360 summary, registration required), Carmack told the court of his development of a virtual reality demo for Doom 3 in 2012 and his search for a VR headset that would be suitable to run it. That's when he says he got in touch with Luckey, leading to the now legendary E3 2012 demo that introduced Oculus to the public. ZeniMax is seeking $2 billion in damage, which matches the value that Facebook paid for Oculus in 2014. The trial is expected to last three weeks.
flip a coin. they're all testifying.
It seems to me that the core team that made id what it is today have all the left company on bad terms.
Doom3 code is open source. Therefore, VR code is open source.
Seems that you've got the reading down, but your comprehension could use a little work.
Apart from the specific facts of what happened while Carmack was working on VR at Id Software.
It often happens that an employee starts investigating new technology that may not be directly tied to the company's existing products or plans. Typically, the employee will give demos and talks to management and other company employees, but the managers have a decision to make. It's one thing to allow one employee to go off on his own for six months looking into something which might be a breakthrough. It's another thing to assign a team of engineers, including management, marketing, UX and graphics, test, documentation, sysadmin, etc. and capital resources needed to bring the engineer's ideas to fruition. And all the while, there are corporate politics going on, with the "stock" of managers and engineers rising and falling in the firm. And people leave the company for better pastures.
If the company signs off on the project and says "Let's go!" then, great, chances are the engineer will hunker down and spend at least the next year or two trying to get the now fledgling project off the ground. But what if management balks, or worse, if they assign a manager who has very different ideas about what to do with the technology, and/or who should be the lead engineer? Certainly, the company has paid for the specs, drawings, prototypes and code that the engineer has developed to date, and properly owns them outright. But do they own what's in the engineer's head? Could HP's lawyers have gone after Stephen Wozniak in the '70s after Apple came out with a hit product?
None of the entertaining quotes from Carmack?
One line of questioning asked whether Carmack knew about a âoesecret meetingâ in a hotel room with Oculus co-founders Nate Mitchell and Palmer Luckey, to which Carmack responded âoeNo I didnâ(TM)t, it was a secret.â A MacBook was brought up during questioning as well, with the lawyer asking why it was never wiped, with Carmack responding: âoeI am not a Mac user unless under duress.â
http://uploadvr.com/john-carma...
And people will be following the dogs to clean up the dog poop.
Why didn't he just turn the stolen goods into a social media website? Nobody seems to care who steals those right?
ZeniMax is seeking $2 billion in damage, which matches the value that Facebook paid for Oculus in 2014. The trial is expected to last three weeks.
If the Instagram and Whatsapp overtures are taken into account, that could loosely translate into tens of dollars.
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.
Ernest Hemingway
Unless Oculus has a computer with Zenimax owned code on it or exact copies of blueprints/CAD stolen from Zenimax, this is just the lawyers lining their pockets. Slavery is illegal in the US. If you can't retain your employees, you lose the knowledge between their ears. Outside of patented ideas, they can and do take their knowledge to their next employer. This is like suing a software engineer's new company because he worked on GPS mapping software at his old and new company, it's just ridiculous.
This case should be slapped down hard with 10x punitive damages on Zenimax along with paying for Oculus court costs for filing a frivolous lawsuit.
If you disagree, please post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like
The Social Network 2:
Zuckerberg Gets Deposed About a Bunch More Shit
Nothing posted to
I remember back when Carmack was with id Software (owned by Bethesda by that point), and he was pretty vocal in the community about wanting to get VR to work. At the time, he was using one of the very early prototypes he put together (no a Rift), and made quite a few comments about how tracking really needs work, and talked about how he was hacking together solutions to make it better, etc.. About a year later, he demos Doom 3 BFG at E3 with an Oculus prototype with improved headtracking in the game. And a year after that, he was working for Oculus.
from the tone and language of your post, you sir are a closeted homosexual.
it's 2017, just be who you are already and lose the hate.
Palmer Luckey wasn't a "tech innovator"...he was a rich geek who frequented VR modding message boards, and just like everyone else took a smartphone screen and hooked it to community-made VR software
Occulus has always been more about hype than actual tech...that's fine as it goes...if I could start a hype driven company and get it purchased by Facebook for Billions I'd do it, but lets' not pretend or let marketing people write the history.
I'm not surprised at all that Occulus is being accused of doing this...doesn't mean it's true...but on the face of it, this fits with Occulus' modus operandi since it was just Palmer Luckey posting on message boards
Thank you Dave Raggett
Doesn't need to steal shit. These ppl need to shut the fuck up.
Doesn't need to steal, and didn't steal are orthogonal.
The claim is that Carmack copied stuff from id before he left. Of course Oculus's claim is that any of the stuff developed for Oculus was not from Id, but that doesn't necessarily mean nothing was "stolen", only Oculus claiming they didn't use any of the stuff Zenimax claims Carmack allegedly "stole". Any lawyer worth their salt wouldn't advise someone like Carmack make any public statement on this matter, so we have no idea if there is any factual basis for any of these accusations.
This is probably a set of facts that is best determined by examining evidence, not taking people's word for it. I suspect it is all a load of crap from Zenimax's lawyers, but if it wasn't Carmack, but some random Joe accused of "stealing" stuff from an Open Source project for use in Oculus, I suspect that people would be calling for a lynch mob. Somewhere along the line people stopped caring about facts and started rooting for people. Not sure this is a good thing.
I don't doubt that Carmack didn't *need* to steal anything, but don't forget lots of work happened between Id and Oculus *before* Carmack joined Oculus and just because Carmack move was or wasn't involved in a transfer of IP that Carmack worked on, doesn't mean that IP was transferred according to all the appropriate non-disclosure agreements between the two companies. Sometimes business agreements become super-complicated when principals change teams.
Carmack allegedly used "copyrighted computer code, trade secret information, and technical know-how" from his time at ZeniMax after he moved to Oculus as CTO in 2013.
The first two would be bad, but you can't stop someone from using their expertise when changing jobs.
Doesn't need to steal shit.
Funny you say that, because he actually did steal some shit back in his youth. Obviously that was a long time ago and not very relevant anymore, but those Apple IIs disprove your theory.
They better have real evidence. If you filled a 100ft by 100ft room full of the smartest people on earth- Carmack would be in the room. That's big game hunting.
You don't sue a person like that- you make a deal. Because he doesn't need to win- it was his brain. He already won.
Another consultant who stuck it out.
"We are the Priests, of the Temples of Syrinx..."
id as a company exists thanks to Carmak.
That cheapskate butthole who paid for id and did not bother to take good care of Carmak should be sued instead.
>Carmack is also noted for his generous contributions to charities and gaming communities. Some of the recipients of Carmack's charitable contributions include his former high school, promoters of open source software, opponents of software patents, and game enthusiasts. In 1997, he gave away one of his Ferraris (a 328 model) as a prize to Dennis Fong, the winner of the Quake tournament "Red Annihilation".[20]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
I have had the data related to this matter in my systems for the last two years.
I have no idea who is going to come out on top, or whether either side has any merit to their litigation.
I just keep the systems running. What the business does with them is their business. And apparently of interest to the readers of Arstechnica and Slashdot.
QUAD DAMAGES!!!
... and if by some miracle it survives and thrives, then try to grab what you think you can.
Saying he "did" doesn't illustrate a "need" to do so now. SMH
John Carmack was simultaneously working for Oculus, ID Software, and not mentioned at all here is Armadillo Aerospace where he was even doing NASA contracts all at the same time. Trying to be Buckaroo Bonzai by doing everything at once is more than most normal people could do. It was about the time Zenimax took over ID Software that John Carmack wanted to continue doing this sort of multi-tasking, but they insisted he decide who he was going to work for exclusively.... and he told them to go take a hike.
If you are an engineering who is moonlighting on multiple side projects, it can definitely get a little bit fuzzy about what stuff you develop on your own time vs. what you develop for your employer. In Carmack's case, the previous management was a whole lot more open to him pretty much doing as much as he wanted to do and however he wanted to do it as long as they got a piece of the action. ID Software got the better end of the bargain in that situation and made a whole bunch of money off of the work that John Carmack was able to perform on their behalf.
That these asshats tried to kill the goose that laid golden eggs... is what they are pissed about. Even more because that goose flew away rather than them getting to eat goose for dinner and laid some golden eggs for somebody else instead that made billions of dollars for those investors.
I have great respect for Carmack. He's given every engine he has ever worked on away to the opensource community. I see Carmack as on of the few people with real ethics and vision in the gaming industry. I can't imagine a better scenario than him getting 2 billion dollars from a monstrous surveillance engine like Facebook.
pagol
" www.pagol.com "
But if Carmack wrote code on a computer owned by id software, powered by electricity paid for by id software, in an office rented by id software, while sitting on a chair paid for by id software, with a salary paid for by id software.... come on, we all know how this works. Guess who owns the code.
But if Carmack wrote code on a computer owned by id software, powered by electricity paid for by id software, in an office rented by id software, while sitting on a chair paid for by id software, with a salary paid for by id software.... come on, we all know how this works. Guess who owns the code.
A company with a mailbox in the Eastern District of Texas.
Stop with this stupidity. A company is not a living thing. It cannot talk. It is not ZeniMax talking. There are single individuals doing the talking and other individuals giving them scripts to read out loud.
Do not let people hide behind their organizations.
Excuse me, you posted something earlier about bushings. Are you selling them still?
About time the peons get put in their proper place!
Quote: "Carmack allegedly used '[...] technical know-how'"
OMG, wait, OOOOMMMMFFFFGGGG!!!!
Seriously, were they expecting Carmack to be brainwashed so he couldn't use anything he has learnt?
Id Software hasn't made 2billion in it's lifetime. Yet Zenimax is asking for 2billion for a little piece of code that Carmack wrote while still being employed at Id Software. This company is bad.
Frankly this should never be an issue. While working any job (but especially a high-tech one) you learn new skills, explore new avenues. If you make a breakthrough with this at a subsequent job your previous bosses do not get to claim ownership of it.
Nobody gets to own the inside of your head but you - no not even the people who put stuff there.
What's next ? Disney Pictures suing me for remembering a scene from Avengers ? "The defendent made an unauthorized copy of the film on the neurons of his brain"...
Unless he took physical hardware, or specs with him - there is no issue. Maybe you could complain if you can show he took copies of code with him - but even then you have to prove it's code written on company time using company resources - otherwise think where that leads. If, while working a job to pay the bills, you develop something over the weekends which you will subsequently launch a startup around - your old boss can subsequently sue your startup for it's full value claiming they own the whole thing because some of the code was written while you were still their employee ?
This reminds me too much of Snowcrash: "I own what's in these people's heads and I have a right ot make sure they can never use it for anything but working for me".
Unicode killed the ASCII-art *
F**K zenimax!
BOYCOTT zenimax
LONG LIVE OCULUS!
I agree, mod parent up
This is all completely 100% legal in terms of actions of John Carmack
Zenimax suffered from poor management, they should be firing the manager in charge, who didn't do their job properly, and tried to kill the goose that laid the golden egg, and eat goose for dinner. John Carmack behaved completely legally. Zenimax is filing a frivilous lawsuit simply because they want to see a pay day
What is this *contract* of which you write?
The vast majority of employees have no contract - they are employed at will. Tomorrow you could hear "you're fired" and be out the door with nothing.
Employees are often subject to the terms of an employee handbook which is not a contractual obligation (no "meeting of minds", no "offer and acceptance", etc.), and which can be changed unilaterally by the employer.
It is true that technology workers in California often will sign some sort of "assignment of rights" and "pre-existing IP disclosure" forms when being hired on. And, in California (where this litigation is taking place), there's fairly clear laws about "working on stuff at home not being property of employer", although the employer may get a "shop right" to use IP developed with their information/resources without having to pay a fee.
actually did steal some shit back in his youth
Carmack is also noted for his generous contributions to charities
I don't follow, are you implying that this guy is Robin Hood? Following the comment of "he did something bad" with "he did something good too" doesn't make sense. I'm not saying that a person can't recognize their wrongdoings and turn their life around but copypasta from Wikipedia isn't a real strong argument to that case.
Nobody gets to own the inside of your head but you - no not even the people who put stuff there.
Unfortunately this is not necessarily true, and there are many lawyers working to make it even less so. Look into the murky rules surrounding trade secrets. In many jurisdictions it is becoming increasingly more feasible for a previous employer to basically boot you out of your career path if you cease working for them. I also thought this was incredibly unfair when I first learnt about it, but that is because I'm an engineer, and grew up with a idealistic belief that life is about what you can give to humanity, not trying to grab as much of everyone else's stuff for yourself.
Carmack supposedly 'appropriated' Carmack's Reverse from a lecture given by a guy at Creative Labs' (who had patented it before giving the lecture, if I remember correctly!)
And Carmack, Romero and one or two others violated their employment contract with SoftDisk by producing their early games (I forget what, Commander Keen and maybe something else?) and publishing them independently while under contract to SoftDisk as programmers.
So just based off those two items without getting into anything else, I would say it is not out of line to believe Carmack might do this, although one would have hoped given his age, financial status, and social stature, that he would be mature, responsible, and professional enough to not have done so.
captcha was 'baseless'... Sure hope so. If not it is just one rung further fallen down the ladder from being an Indie gaming legend during the 90s and early '00s.
Oh come onnn..., I got VR headset as a present by Oculus, way to try to put a bummer on it. Why the negativity of such a new technology? Should there not be more concern for the public interest than a company's claim to one guy's work?
Everyone know VR Jesus (Palmer) invented it in a garage. There was nothing before Palmer came up with VR.
I love how contracts can state they have a right to what you dont even know yet. Everyone want a piece of the upcoming VR/AR revolution.
This reminds me of telling my friends in the mid 80's of going "online" and getting commodore games and software. All I hears is online is a fad, its for nerds only. :-)
I hear the same crap about VR/AR. In 20 years all glasses will be connected and VR/AR will me mainstream, but now its a fad its only for nerds
And then there's the story about him & Romero borrowing workstations from their employer (Softdisk) to write games on at home during the weekends ;). They really need to make a movie about him & Romero's early days.
Zenimax loses it's star employee to a better offer so the board decides to tarnish ex-employee's reputation and possibly get a sizable settlement from a company with the deepest moat. Any settlement offer will oblige Oculus to hand over it's source code -- who's stealing again?
this is the reason I never installed the native develoment kit for android in my pc, because anything that I would start to develop would be stolen by facebook motherfucker hipsters.
If you make a breakthrough with this at a subsequent job
Sounds like that is not what they are arguing though.
ZeniMax detailed its case that Carmack, while still an employee at Id Software, "designed the specifications and functionality embodied in the Rift SDK and directed its development." ... Carmack allegedly used "copyrighted computer code, trade secret information, and technical know-how" from his time at ZeniMax after he moved to Oculus as CTO in 2013.
My how trollish.... I'm sure there's a special place in hell for pedists
Anyhow the point of my comment is that Zuckerberg is a thief not a programmer. John Carmack is a legendary programmer, not a thief.
Yes the suit is actually between companies... but the accusation is leveled at Carmack. The notion that a guy with his talents needs to steal code is completely absurd.
And... all these people are involved IN LIEU of people not mentioned but who are NOT assumed as the real brains, right? Because voices are being heard over the heads of those involved. I am very annoyed, in 2000 there WAS a company offering virtual reality in a helmet and even had the APIs for download. I was developing my MIDI guitar applications, Roland, and had already downloaded the VR libraries and waiting for things to come together to... well, bring all these together for MY OWN GUITAR application and connectivity and integration. By the time things start coming together... no trace of the company and ALL THE GEAR gets stolen, before GUITAR HERO happens, see? An offshoot from the already working code, not even worth the while to menu it and mode the app when using the guitar was, uh, SO EASY, you know what I mean? Anyway, my idea is that of AFRICANIZING GLASSES. Yes, I already had the started the notes, I think they were along the lines of OLED... those notes where indeed snatched but later returned save a few pages... BUt the idea is still there and sound: to see things the way African eyes see them. Is IBM promising such hypervisor anytime soon? Gee! All these people messed in this while all my computers get stolen and I trying to tell people: I have an idea! I KNOW how to do it! - Nope, the idea was the Castle Wolfenstein as it was in Apple II would look great in 3D, but at the time I only had an idea of how to split geometry with trees, not the technical capability to do it in applesoft basic nor the computer for that matter.
My guess is Chris was specifically pointing this out:
Some of the recipients of Carmack's charitable contributions include his former high school,
He repaid the high school for what he did in a way. This doesn't excuse what he did though.
APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
But, the suit is from Id, not Facebook.
APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?