Slashdot Mirror


Valve Is Shutting Down Steam's Greenlight Community Voting System (theverge.com)

Valve's crowdsourced Greenlight submission program, which let the gaming community select which games get chosen for distribution via Steam, is shutting down after nearly five years. It will be replaced with a new system called Steam Direct that will charge developers a fee for each title they plan to distribute. The Verge reports: Steam Greenlight was launched in 2012 as a way for indie developers to get their games on Steam, even if they weren't working with a big publisher that had a relationship with Valve. Steam users would vote on Greenlight games, and Valve would accept titles with enough support to suggest that they'd sell well. Kroll says that "over 100" Greenlight titles have made $1 million or more. But Greenlight has also had significant problems. Developers could game the system by offering rewards for votes, and worthy projects could get lost amidst a slew of bad proposals. Since Valve ultimately made the call on including games, the process could also seem arbitrary and opaque. The big question is whether what's replacing it is better. To get a game on Steam Direct, developers will need to "complete a set of digital paperwork, personal or company verification, and tax documents similar to the process of applying for a bank account." Then, they'll pay an application fee for each game, "which is intended to decrease the noise in the submission pipeline" -- a polite way of saying that it will make people think twice before spending money submitting a low-quality game. Steam Direct is supposed to launch in spring of 2017, but the application fee hasn't been decided yet. Developer feedback has apparently suggested anything from $100 -- the current Greenlight submission fee -- and $5,000.

99 comments

  1. Possibly good news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    If you are a serious indie game developer, this may be good news. Hopefully this will reduce the amount of scams/shovelware/asset flips by 80%. However, there was a good side to Greenlight: cross-promoting a Kickstarter campaign with it was useful.

    If Steam does not put in place anything similar (for games that already paid the fee but are still developing), it can take a big hit for marketing of indie games.

    We are just in the middle of deciding whether to do our campaign before or after Steam Direct closes the gates... :-)

    1. Re:Possibly good news by Quakeulf · · Score: 5, Interesting

      As a poor indie-dev if I have to pay up to four digits to get my game out there it will not happen. I have already passed Greenlight once and sold over 20000 copies on Steam, but as I also have to charge very little for my games a $5000 entry fee would eat up a lot of its income. This could kill a lot of serious submitters as well. What I hope is that they do it like Android and to some degree Apple (they're dinosaurs now), with a lower submission fee but with more weight on accountability. Then again, if they make it easier for people to get exposed to your crowdfunding campaign, that would help too, because right now all I see is crowdfunding campaigns just to afford the entry fee.

    2. Re:Possibly good news by spire3661 · · Score: 3, Informative

      As I understand it, the application fee is recoverable through sales. Think of it more as a deposit.

      --
      Good-bye
    3. Re:Possibly good news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As I understand it, not every indy dev has $5000 dollars to drop on the -chance- of earning back the money they put down just to start selling them.

      While I agree the greenlight process had a lot of noise and there was certainly abuse - the basic system was fine. Steam could have just looked for ways to smack down the abusers, but apparently this is more profitable to them.

    4. Re:Possibly good news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Valve isn't real big on accountability, at least not when it applies to Valve. They want a system they can set-and-forget and that doesn't require human resources to supervise. On the other hand, they need to address the toxic garbage fire that the Greenlight has become. We aren't even talking about merely shitty games anymore, we are talking about lowlife scumbags a step below email SPAMers turning the storefront into a tragedy of the commons. Given those business priorities they don't have much choice but to increase the barrier to entry. They should have done it years ago.

    5. Re:Possibly good news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You're saying that as if indie devs have never published anything on their own before Steam became a thing....

      I get it, you can reach a wide audience through Steam. Yeah, I get it, you will no longer make a low effort game that 10 years ago you'd be able to play through for free on miniclip and sell it on steam to make money, but there's still things like itch.io or newgrounds if you wanna publish your games. There's a ton of different games that Steam won't allow on their service that get a lot of attention elsewhere. Don't act like this is the end of the world for you. It was only a matter of time until the bubble burst since everybody's been exploiting this system to the maximum possible degree to make money off of people that will literally buy anything that has trading cards in it, or "ironically" just to post a "lolzy" review.

      If you won't be able to afford to publish your game on Steam now, tough luck, can't have everything you want. Try one of a hundred alternatives for indie devs out there, actively promote your products and let people judge if it's worth supporting or not.

    6. Re: Possibly good news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      We're a mid-sized indie shop who has put two titles through Greenlight.

      This is fantastic news. Anyone who believes otherwise either has never had to go through the bullshit of Greenlight before, or is one of the shit-ware peddlers this is meant to filter out.

      If you believe in what you are doing, a $5k deposit is nothing. Do a kickstarter for it when you can demo a good playable product.

      Greenlight was terrible for indies. You were left in limbo for months not knowing if you would be able to pay employees soon, with a totally opaque approval process. The game you worked years on was lost in a sea of "Shower With Dad Simulators" made by children over the weekend.

    7. Re:Possibly good news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You only need 5 thousand sales if you sell your game for 1 dollar to make the money back and steam has several million users out of which hundreds of thousands are willing to invest in cheap games just to see what they are. If you make a quality product, it will DEFINITELY sell more than 5 thousand copies at 1 dollar.

      High fee will only encourage more good games on Steam and discourage opportunistic nerds looking to make easy money. 100 bucks was nothing to the average american child to publish their asset flips. 5 thousand is a different story.

    8. Re:Possibly good news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Steam policing their store and vetting things that are added too it would do the same thing and not siphon off smaller good developers.

      I guess it's just a shame Steam can't afford to hire anyone to do this...

    9. Re:Possibly good news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you're that poor, then self-host and advertise on Reddit on /r/gamedev and any other relevant subreddit you can find (genre-specific, indie-specific, etc.). Feedback from Reddit built Stardew Valley and he made millions.

    10. Re:Possibly good news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If you don't have enough confidence in your product to make a 5 thousand USD investment then maybe it's a sign that it's not good enough to be published. If you make a good game that people will want to buy, it'll pay for itself. If you make the opposite, it won't.

      Steam isn't some kind of free flash game site where everything goes, if you publish your game there it'll be sold alongside full-fledged AAA games and timeless classics of all eras of gaming. The entry fee for indies should've been high to begin with as that would at least assure SOME level of consistency in game quality.

      Anybody attempting to filter the flood of games on greenlight right now, greenlit or not, would lose their sanity before anything significant was achieved.

    11. Re:Possibly good news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you dont have enough confidence in your staff and store to police the content uploaded to it then maybe your store isn't good enough to be used?

      That line of thinking goes as easily against valve as it does against anyone making a game. Except first time indie devs might actually not have $5000. Wheras valve most certainly does have the cash.

    12. Re: Possibly good news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You don't seem very determined to do whatever it takes for what you want. Everyone wants their Netflix, cell phone, chicken meals, soda, cigarettes, outings with friends; but bitch and moan about being poor. So how is it then that I want something, I can have it regardless of my pitiful hourly wage? Is it because I live on less than $7 a week in food? Is it that I don't go anywhere other than work and hone to save gas?

    13. Re:Possibly good news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are no alternatives to Steam. You either get your game on Steam or it will be a commercial failure. Period.

      The days of publishing games any other way are long gone. Steam has effectively a monopoly on PC gaming. Everything else is just niche noise.

    14. Re: Possibly good news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're right. This is fantastic news for established developers because it keeps new players from entering the market and reduces competition.

    15. Re:Possibly good news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Then either make the investment to be on Steam or be satisfied with having a small circle of players on cheaper/free platforms and keep going from there. GOG exists, itch.io exists. It's not like they're completely deserted. If you make a nice game people inevitably will play it and maybe even support your future games. Eventually you'll have enough money to get your stuff on Steam and then some.

      Every tech giant and game studio started small and became big over time. It seems to me like indie devs think they deserve success, fame and money with the first game they make and are entitled to be part of any distribution platform just because they made a thing.

      If you're making games which are so good they can have a chance to become commercial successes, then you'll have no trouble getting on Steam because you either already have developer status or have enough money to get into Steam Direct. If you're making the kind of games that would get instantly nuked off of Newgrounds for being bad and can't afford the fee then Steam Direct is doing its job perfectly. Indie devs need to learn to deal with reality.

    16. Re:Possibly good news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hired humans only scale linearly. That's not scalable.

    17. Re:Possibly good news by yuriklastalov · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but this is Valve we're talking about. The Socialist paradise where every employee decides what they feel like doing that day and everyone wonders why nothing difficult ever gets done. gg

    18. Re: Possibly good news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The reality is there needs to be some barrier to entry. I used to look through the Steam new release list every couple days. Now it's so full of low effort games coming from Greenlight that I haven't bothered in a couple years.

      I think it's great that dev tools are free of very cheap letting basically anyone explore game development. But the reality is that not everyone has the skill or talent to make a good game. It's more than putting programming, art, and sound together. There's plenty of people who can work through those things. They alone don't make a good game. It needs characters, fun mechanics, and/or an engaging story.
       
        Simply put few people/teams can put that together successfully. Steam shouldn't be an outlet for anyone who managed to get a basic RPG Maker game running with stock assets one weekend. There needs to be some quality control and entry barriers tend to do that well. Nintendo showed this in the mid-80s with the NES and Seal of Quality. They essentially resurrected the video game industry from the crash of 1982 that was brought in by low quality shovelware games.

    19. Re: Possibly good news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What bullshit. Steam is not the only place to publish a successful Indy pc game.

    20. Re: Possibly good news by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 2

      If this change ends some of the perpetual betas on Steam that eventually die on the vine it will be a good thing. To extend the metaphor, all the dead-end stubs of growth on the vine will eventually weigh it down and the whole vine will tumble to earth.

      Customers need to have confidence in what they spend their dollars on. A long repeating history of perpetual betas that go nowhere actually hurts viable new startup projects by burning out the people who might buy into the project.

    21. Re:Possibly good news by lgw · · Score: 2

      days of publishing games any other way are long gone. Steam has effectively a monopoly on PC gaming. Everything else is just niche noise.

      Niche noise is all you need to raise $5000 to get your game on Steam (though I suspect it will end up lower than that, $5000 isn't unreasonable IMO).

      Greenlight is a worthless cesspool now. It's gone beyond Sturgeon's Law: 99% of the games there are 0-effort asset flips. It's nearly impossible for a player to find the 1 good game in 100 - and that can't possibly be good for devs either. For example, there have been some amazing games made with Unity, but Unity games have such a bad rep on Greenlight that it's hard to overcome.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    22. Re:Possibly good news by SolemnLord · · Score: 1

      5000$ is a huge barrier to most people. You can't make up that money in sales if you can't put the money down in the first place.

      It's a sensible move for Valve to make, 100%, but it only pushes the games on nu-Greenlight to be more predictable and safe, and developed by the already-established or already-affluent. That's not a good recipe for strengthening games in the long run.

    23. Re:Possibly good news by EvilSS · · Score: 1

      They should do like other platforms do and require devs to have a publisher. That way indie devs don't have to pay a fee, and Valve doesn't need to take on the responsibility of reviewing every single game that is submitted to them.

      --
      I browse on +1 so AC's need not respond, I won't see it.
    24. Re: Possibly good news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're right. This is fantastic news for established developers because it keeps new players from entering the market and reduces competition.

      If it means less broken half-assed crap like "The Ritual on Weyland Island" or such then it's a good thing.

    25. Re: Possibly good news by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      While I agree that quality is important, this is more likely to empower scammers (who can look at the price/revenue target, and invest 5k) than new to the scenes developers.

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
    26. Re: Possibly good news by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 2

      Is it because I live on less than $7 a week in food? Is it that I don't go anywhere other than work and hone to save gas?

      I've lived like that. It sucks. It's not a badge of honor.

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
    27. Re:Possibly good news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As I understand it, the application fee is recoverable through sales. Think of it more as a deposit.

      Does not help much in the case of free games.

    28. Re: Possibly good news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Found the shit-ware maker. Sorry, you won't be able to reskin flappy birds anymore.

    29. Re: Possibly good news by Desler · · Score: 1

      Don't worry! The Waaaaaahmbulance is on the way!

    30. Re:Possibly good news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you don't have enough confidence in your product to make a 5 thousand USD investment then maybe it's a sign that it's not good enough to be published. If you make a good game that people will want to buy, it'll pay for itself. If you make the opposite, it won't.

      Just because a game was not made with a budget of millions, it does not mean it cannot be good. Also, even if you do make a "good" game, there is no guarantee at all that it will sell without investing enough in marketing. Even something made by a single person or as a community/open source project can be well worth having in a place where more people can notice that it exists. Some successful indie titles were made with little investment, surely there is a lot of junk around (and there will still be with the $5000 fee), but a low barrier to entry can still be worth it if it gives the occasional gem a chance. This has been one of the advantages of Steam, if you had to pay thousands just be able to release something there (even for free), you might as well publish it on the consoles instead. Actually, releasing a game on the PS4 may cost less than $5000, and it is even a larger market than Steam.

    31. Re:Possibly good news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are no alternatives to Steam. You either get your game on Steam or it will be a commercial failure. Period.

      The days of publishing games any other way are long gone. Steam has effectively a monopoly on PC gaming. Everything else is just niche noise.

      At least if more people released games elsewhere, even if they were primarily smaller developers, it could be a step towards moving away from Steam. Monopolies are bad, and a step like this might already be a sign of Valve getting lazy or greedy. Rather than actually putting effort into better quality control, they just increase the fee. And possibly again in the future as the shovelware will likely still keep coming anyway as long as it remains profitable. This change is in fact most punitive towards free games, because they obviously cannot recover the fee. Then again, that might not be a problem from Valve's point of view, given that 30% of $0 does not give them any revenue either.

    32. Re: Possibly good news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The majority of NES games were flat-out junk. Most of Nintendo's success in with the NES in a post-video game crash world was due to smart marketing, mostly to stores, who were weary of a passing fad taking up valuable shelf space. The Nintendo Seal Of Quality meant very little to consumers; Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde proudly bared the seal, as did shitware like Athena and The Uncanny X-Men.

    33. Re:Possibly good news by Man+On+Pink+Corner · · Score: 1

      Anything that involves letting the general public interact with your business model is fucking scary. How exactly is Valve -- or Apple, or Microsoft, or anyone else -- supposed to do that without going overboard in one direction or the other?

      If they exercise too much "accountability," as you put it, people will accuse them of being Nazi plantation owners who want to lock developers and customers alike into their walled garden. Not enough "accountability?" Then people will complain that their store is a garbage fire. How can they possibly make everyone happy?

    34. Re:Possibly good news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Niche noise is all you need to raise $5000 to get your game on Steam (though I suspect it will end up lower than that, $5000 isn't unreasonable IMO).

      The average game on Steam sells 7500 copies. At $1 a pop that leaves you $2500 before taxes. Good luck living on that while the shovelware developers this policy change is meant to thwart will have no problem making that payment.

    35. Re:Possibly good news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If you've got a title that is remotely marketable, any bank would approve a loan in that amount for such a purpose.

    36. Re:Possibly good news by rwven · · Score: 2

      This side of Valve annoys me to no end. It ends up as a super secretive organization that has one of the slowest development release cycles in the industry. They release a piece of software at about 1 every 5 years at this point.

      For instance, their refusal (or inability) to produce HL3 or episodes of HL2 is just flabbergasting. They have literally millions of people clamoring for it, willing to pay just about any reasonable price for it, and they can't get together the internal organization and direction in order to actually produce it. From the outside, as well as from the stories that have leaked out, it appears that Valve is one of the most dysfunctional and disorganized major companies in existence. A "do anything you want, and no one is your boss!" work environment is every bit as productive as it sounds.

      I understand that business is about money, but it should also be about continually producing something you can be proud of, or something that makes an impact on people's lives. At the moment it seems like they're just sitting back with a couple absurdly slow dev teams working on CSGO and DOTA2, and raking in the money from Steam.

    37. Re: Possibly good news by Desler · · Score: 1

      That seal of quality meant nothing more that the game was guaranteed to run on the NES. There are tons of shit-tier games with that seal.

    38. Re:Possibly good news by tepples · · Score: 1

      Does not help much in the case of free games.

      If your game is free software, can't you just distribute it through GitHub's binary release system?

    39. Re: Possibly good news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And what is the average number of sales for Indy games?

    40. Re:Possibly good news by Desler · · Score: 1

      By "free" they mean "no cost" (aka the definition used by 99.9+% of the world). They are not using the Stallman pedantry definition.

    41. Re:Possibly good news by edwdig · · Score: 1

      They realized that they can make way more money selling items in games like Team Fortress and DOTA than they can off a game like Half Life. That's the main issue here.

    42. Re:Possibly good news by Desler · · Score: 1

      Then maybe that is a sign that running a game company isn't in the cards for you.

    43. Re:Possibly good news by edxwelch · · Score: 1

      but haven't they already enforced a payment fee some time ago?
      If that didn't stop the scammers before, then it's unlikely to make any difference this time.

    44. Re:Possibly good news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You mean the makers of some of the most highly rated games of all time, the dominant force in online sales for PC?

      Once again "Save us from socialism - it might improve our lives!!!" is the chant of those willing to ignore the evidence in their face.

    45. Re:Possibly good news by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      If you make a good game that people will want to buy, it'll pay for itself. If you make the opposite, it won't.

      Unfortunately, it's hard for a game to stand on its own merits.

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
    46. Re:Possibly good news by spire3661 · · Score: 1

      You are joking me right? DOTA 2 just had a $20 million dollar prize tournament. HTC Vive is killer and smacking Oculus around like its their bitch. The last Steam UI 'surfacing' update DOUBLED the user-purchase rate. TF2, a 10 year old game is currently #5 in Steam's top played, talk about legs. HATS! CS:GO pretty much prints money.

      Lighthouse alone is a killer technology that is already seeing use outside of VR, think Lighthouse guided house robots. They have 3 full length VR games in the pipeline, one of which is for sure L4D3. Steam is so profitable there is no real accurate way to determine what the company is actually worth.

      --
      Good-bye
    47. Re: Possibly good news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, that one where for mods.

    48. Re:Possibly good news by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      I read the reason there is no HL3 is they have the "Chris Carter problem" where they have come up with so many disjointed threads (like Chris Carter did with the X-Files lore) that there isn't any way they have come up with to wrap things up that won't come off as a giant ass pull.

      The G-man, the Combine rulers, the Vortigants, the teleported ship from Aperture Science in the arctic....how do all of these things tie together? Fuck if I know and neither apparently does Valve which is why no HL3.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    49. Re:Possibly good news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Words can have multiple meanings you nitwit.

    50. Re:Possibly good news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Kickstarter?

    51. Re: Possibly good news by nitehawk214 · · Score: 1

      Steam: publicise the risk, privatize the profit.

      Thousands of indie devs take the risk for multibillion corporation Valve

      Will this stop the scam games? Probably not. And Valve doesn't care since they make money on the scams.

      --
      I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
    52. Re:Possibly good news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That defeats the entire point of being indie: you work with platform-owners (directly or semi-directly) instead of publishers so the middle-man is cut out.

      What should happen is heuristics, like an algorithm to determine whether a game deserves to be on Steam. It could look at the number of purchases compared to the number of refunds, player review scores, player review commentary, and general community "mood" as hints for whether a game meets the cut. Players should be the ones choosing what stays on Steam.

    53. Re:Possibly good news by Quakeulf · · Score: 1

      Why need to produce anything when Steam provides them with all the income they ever need. Valve seems like a playground for adults at this point.

    54. Re: Possibly good news by Quakeulf · · Score: 1

      I've lived liked that as well. Feels terrible man, but at least I made games.

    55. Re:Possibly good news by lgw · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That average includes the 0-effort asset flips - which is to say, outright scams.

      This isn't the phone market. If your game isn't garbage people will pay $5 for the typical indy-fare with nothing inspired in the graphics or mechanics (assuming decent play-time, seems to be about $3 for short games). Games with some original or interesting element and solid art direction (not necessary good graphics, just an interesting look) will sell for ~$10 (assuming a steam sale discounting it from $15-20).

      And if you actually have a cool idea and it's not your first game, you can probably get a kickstarter going.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    56. Re:Possibly good news by tepples · · Score: 1

      If a game is available to the public without charge, what prevents it from being released under a free software license?

    57. Re:Possibly good news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For an example of a distributed-at-no-cost title that would logically not be distributed under a free software license, look towards a) advert games (games that are themselves adverts for things, like a Coca-Cola TM (R) (C) bejeweled skin or something along those lines) or b) games containing adverts (where the game is distributed without charge where the copyright assignee expects to recoup development and distribution costs through sale of advertising space presented in the game).

      The assignee -could- distribute those under free software licenses if they chose, but that would result in a) clones without the branding, meaning the game would be generating its own competition and reducing the advert purchasers exposure and defeating the purpose of the title (assuming it was created purely on a mercenary basis) and b) duplicates with the advertising prompts and delays removed. (I expect you'd call these an anti-feature. For 'the house', they are the feature.)

      And when the assignee decides its no longer profitable to service those games, they would be withdrawn from distribution. I doubt anybody would miss some naff Flash pinball game based on Mr. Pibb, but yes some brand licensed advert games are good in their own right and they're 'gone for good' (ie not being distributed anymore or not legal to distribute).

      And beyond an economic argument, consider art assets, code libraries and trademark/likeness licenses. Some modern racing games and I believe all James Bond titles aren't available even for sale for these reasons.

      These elements might not be licensed under terms that extend to compatibility with a free software license.

      If somebody in charge at Codemasters decided to open source the no-longer-available GRID, the cars most likely wouldn't be available in a potential free software edition, making the game pretty useless. It would be a cost to get the game into a useful condition, or to remove the non-distributable elements to make the underlying code available in a useful condition.

    58. Re:Possibly good news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I use the term 'copyright assignee' here as a catch-all for whomever the entity is (publisher, software house, solo developer) that eventually holds the copyright or enough of the copyright, and would be capable of distributing the game under a free software license. Apologies if it's not an entirely accurate term, but you can see what I'm getting at.

      In some cases the assignee might be a consortium instead of an individual and there's a new deck of worms for you.

    59. Re:Possibly good news by tepples · · Score: 1

      If your game is available without charge, why can't it be distributed as an MSI installer on your website?

    60. Re:Possibly good news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Uniquely developed game code intended to be used in the capacity of a trade secret for the same or future titles.

      You've made observations about Doom's 'Knee-Deep In The Dead' episode in the shareware model here tons of times. Would Doom have made as much money for iD if KDITD (or just its code) had also been open source? (At the time.)

      If you had any answer to that question in mind, you're wrong. Predicting is useless. But, it's a conceivable, and more importantly avoidable risk.

      I can't think of many games that exist on the Free Software-but-you-can-pay-for-the-super-edition-to-get-better-serviced-stuff model. If you can show reliable repeatable figures that show that that business model is a 'done deal', then that risk will be shown to be a phantom and maybe you will see more Free Software games, or at least perhaps demos of games.

    61. Re:Possibly good news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      some naff Flash pinball game based on Mr. Pibb,

      P.S. It just occured to me that reproductions of old physical pinball tables (into physical new units or virtual 'compilations'), would be the textbook case of this. They're licensed every which way from Sunday. You've got a big name branding from Foo realised as a playfield design created by Bar.

    62. Re:Possibly good news by tepples · · Score: 1

      Let's say a game's publisher is distributing it without charge but has a good reason to keep it proprietary. Now why must it be distributed through specifically Steam? Not even Steam Machines are locked down to run only executables from Steam.

    63. Re:Possibly good news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This news item is specifically about Steam, so the desire to use Steam is assumed.

    64. Re:Possibly good news by tepples · · Score: 1

      Let me rephrase again: The news item is Valve's announcement that Steam is no longer right for every situation.

  2. Uh oh, baby being thrown out with the bathwater by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I know you mean well Steam, but you're basically going down the "app store" route here by throwing unnecessary road cones in the way.

    Here's two simple things that can be done to solve the gaming of the system and the quality control.

    1. Specifically require QA milestones. If a project never makes it out of an alpha or beta state, it never gets to be priced as anything but free. Those testing the game must simply put a "I feel this milestones objectives have all been met" or "I feel this milestone has not been met" checkbox in order to move up the QA phase. If people complain the game lacks polish or is too difficult (or way too easy) then the developer must find a 95% percentile pass on difficulty.

    2. No placeholder/unlicensed/stock assets/engines/plugins. This is a touchy subject, but in order for a game to get a game to "ready to QA" point, there must be no misrepresented assets. It's fine to buy an asset off the Unity store or whatever, but it must clearly be listed in the asset manifest as licensed, and games using "game making" tools like RPG Maker and such must indicate that they have the proper license for every asset used, by showing the chain of custody on acquiring those assets. If an author is unable to do this, they are not qualified to sell a game. A simple "credits" file is not enough. These need to be audited independently.

    If a developer can jump those hurdles, then they can eventually put the game up for sale. Otherwise simply asking for business/bank information and a "fee" up front doesn't actually solve anything but instead makes people second-guess Steam's willingness to place a game on Steam in the first place.

    1. Re:Uh oh, baby being thrown out with the bathwater by Quakeulf · · Score: 2

      Making graffix for games is what takes the most time now, and most indie devs either make terribly scoped pixel platformers (99% total dev time on sprites), or whatever they can get their hands on/get around to pass as graffix to present their game in order to save time and money. There must be some leniency to this, as long as it is not stealing.

    2. Re:Uh oh, baby being thrown out with the bathwater by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The problem is that Valve, while being a multimillion dollar international powerhouse, doesn't actually want to do any work on things like customer service or maintaining their store.

      So anything that actually requires a valve employee to check, vet, or in any way pay attention to their buisness just wont fly. The only thing they're interested in is seeing how much more money they can wring out of something. That's why they tried the abortive paid mods fiasco. That's why they're trying this.

      Look forward to next year when they announce they've fixed their customer support problems: Every customer support ticket costs $100.

    3. Re:Uh oh, baby being thrown out with the bathwater by Kiuas · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The problem is that Valve, while being a multimillion dollar international powerhouse, doesn't actually want to do any work on things like customer service or maintaining their store.

      They don't want to do it because they don't need to do it because they're so huge. It's the same problem as with facebook: the inertia both FB and Steam got from being the first to deliver a service has launched them so far ahead in the market that they're pretty much indestructible at this point. I mean sure, there are competitors out there but steam is so far ahead above the others that they don't have to worry about losing their spot.

      Think about the fact that steam is the only thing that pushes ads onto my desktop from time to time. Then think about the fact that sometimes I've bought games from these ads if the discount is good enough. Valve knows the types of games I've purchased, what I've played, for how long, what kind of hardware I'm running, etc. They have pretty in depth stats about my gaming habits from the past 10 years. This information by itself is something that none of their competitors can ever have access to, and it's worth a lot to them. Targeted advertising is not just done on websites.

      They have taken advantage of this by building the sales/discount system so that even though pretty much everyone agrees that Steam's customer service and quality control are bullshit, most of us still end up using the service because of the value it offers. It's a sort of abusive relationship: we all know that the only way to teach Valve a lesson would be to stop using steam altogether and head to their competition. But people have to start steam to play their library of games, at which time it usually reminds you that this or that game happens to be 70 % off now, and sooner or later relapsing occurs.

      People don't really switch from Facebook to other similar competing social platforms because FB has their images, posts, and connections. Competition is difficult with both Steam and facebook because to efficiently compete with either of these you need access to at least some of the information currently only possessed by these companies, and they sure as hell are not going to hand it to you.

      --
      "It is the business of the future to be dangerous" -Alfred North Whitehead
    4. Re:Uh oh, baby being thrown out with the bathwater by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      I mean sure, there are competitors out there but steam is so far ahead above the others that they don't have to worry about losing their spot.

      The competitors are not even close to being as competent as Steam, let alone to having the same size of library. I'm not the world's biggest Steam fan (have they finally implemented a robust download process for the initial Steam install? on a marginal connection, even getting Steam installed can be a nightmare) but holy shit, have you see Uplay? More likely U scream at Origin for being a bunch of incompetent dildos.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    5. Re:Uh oh, baby being thrown out with the bathwater by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      From personal experience and what friends in the industry tell me, the biggest areas that need help are LOD artists and texture artists. There's plenty of mesh(static and moving object) makers even animators, if anything there's an over abundance of both. And that's because schools(inc. fly-by-night, and low-end schools) pushed the big "animation is where it's at!" stuff for years. But 2D artists and things like that? If you can colour, draw in a texture, and so on? You can basically take your pick of jobs from low to high end. Even the h-games I've worked on, the biggest problems we've always had were finding actual artists who could draw assets. It's why on sites like(FYI all NSFW -- basically digital storefronts like Steam/Origin/etc) DMM.co.jp, getchu.com or DLSite.com you'll see such similarities in drawings, it's not that people are copying(though there is some of that). It's there's a lack of actual artists, and they're in such demand that their services go to the highest bidder. You can also look at big projects like Skywind and other total conversion projects. It's always the same thing 2D texture makers and LOD/static mesh artists.

      It's easy to "upsample" a texture and make it prettier which is what a lot of those texture packs that gamers like to use. But finding someone who does it by hand? Rare. And they usually already work in the industry.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    6. Re:Uh oh, baby being thrown out with the bathwater by Desler · · Score: 2

      1. Specifically require QA milestones. If a project never makes it out of an alpha or beta state, it never gets to be priced as anything but free. Those testing the game must simply put a "I feel this milestones objectives have all been met" or "I feel this milestone has not been met" checkbox in order to move up the QA phase. If people complain the game lacks polish or is too difficult (or way too easy) then the developer must find a 95% percentile pass on difficulty.

      Are you naive enough to think this couldn't be easily gamef?

    7. Re:Uh oh, baby being thrown out with the bathwater by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      LOD is dead simple. It's called "decimate" in blender.

      Has been great since 2.7x

    8. Re:Uh oh, baby being thrown out with the bathwater by sd4f · · Score: 1

      Part of the problem is though, that steam has been quite anti-consumer. All the criticism levelled at MS over their concerns for windows 8, valve is guilty of with steam. DRM is available, it's not mandatory, but there's a lot of publishers whose only form of DRM is valve's own one, locking the game to steam, no matter where it's purchased. There was a period where it was quite restrictive as well, locking users out of the games. The only thing valve did to build good will was have very aggressive sales, but that has changed now, you don't get the same level of sales anymore, and ever since they opened the flood gates to shovelware, the platform has gotten markedly worse. For a long period, valve self curated, and made sure that only decent stuff went onto steam, however I think the kickstarter thing rattled their cage, and they must have seen that as a big failure to not have captured that market, enter greenlight.

      My biggest concern about valve now is how they've quite covertly embraced gambling in their games and platform. With the steam market, cases (in CS:GO), cosmetic items and speculative trading, but in particular the CS:GO cases, they're doing something incredibly unethical in my opinion, by essentially making a poker machine side game to suck in gullible people. Sure, adults can do what they want, but lots of kids play there as well. Once upon a time, paid horse armor was rightfully lampooned, now some dragon law AWP skin or karambit gets all the rage.

      Valve tries to make out that they're nice guys, but they're not an ethical company.

  3. Oh No! Think of Jim Sterling! by MCROnline · · Score: 1

    I really enjoy Jim Sterling's videos about Steam Greenlight. I guess now they will be consigned to history,

    1. Re:Oh No! Think of Jim Sterling! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good. We'd all be better off if we didn't need Jim's spotlight on Greenlight. He's the performing the service we need, but not the service we deserve and all that. He's creative enough to come up with alternative content and I'm sure he'll be as pleased as the rest of us if the crusade comes to an end.

    2. Re:Oh No! Think of Jim Sterling! by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      Considering he's only an advocate when it doesn't have anything to do with his friends? Meh. If it does have something to do with his friends though? He'll be happy to look the other way and sometimes even shill for them.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    3. Re:Oh No! Think of Jim Sterling! by Isendur · · Score: 1

      Fuck friends, right? Prostituting for them, simply disgusting.

    4. Re:Oh No! Think of Jim Sterling! by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      Fuck friends, right? Prostituting for them, simply disgusting.

      Yes, because when someone claims to be a "consumer advocate" and standing up against that exact same corruption in the industry? Well we should just toss our ethics out the fucking window when it's "our" friends.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
  4. The submission fee should be... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...One million dollars!.. ______________________________ ... Sorry, one hundred billion dollars.

  5. Unfortunate, But Necessary by rsmith-mac · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Given that outside of the major publishers, Steam is treated as the de-facto marketplace for PC games, at first I wasn't happy with this move. But after giving it some thought, I think this is going to be for the better.

    Right now Steam is suffering from two major problems that, as a casual buyer, make the store unpleasant to use.

    • Straight up garbage games. These are games thrown together using stock or stolen assets, with no real development effort, all in the name of making a quick buck. It's the noise in the overall signal-to-noise ratio of the store.
    • An extreme case of overchoice/analysis paralysis. There's too many small cap games, exacerbated by the garbage game problem listed above. 38% of all Steam games were released in 2016 despite the fact that Steam has operated as an open storefront now for several years. The number of games being introduced each year is growing, and consumers are having a hard time keeping up.

    To paraphrase from Ye' Olde Wikipedia: "Having too many approximately equally good options is mentally draining because each option must be weighed against alternatives to select the best one". Which really, is kind of a horrific concept because it implies that choice (and competition) is bad. But outside of AAA titles with large marketing budgets and immense brand recognition, most of the games in the Steam store are unknowns, so customers are coming in and facing too many choices without nearly enough information to choose between them. Which isn't a problem if you already know exactly what you want (Call of Duty) and are just coming to the store to buy it. But it is a problem if you only know what kind of thing you want (a first-person shooter) and want to see what's available.

    Essentially requiring a deposit on sales is going to lock out a lot of low budget developers, which taken at face-value is anti-egalitarian. But from a consumer perspective it's going to improve the store by cutting down on the noise. Games from developers who were likely never going to become successful in the first place now won't be cluttering up the storefront. It may keep the next ARK from being discovered, but it will also prevent the next The District from clogging up the store's search results. Developers lose, but arguably it's a win for consumers.

    Which really goes back to a central argument about Steam and app stores in general: what should they be, a free-for-all or a curated store? The former allows everyone to participate, while the latter allows for a more structured experience. And judging from the consumer discontent, it seems that people would rather have the latter. Which at least for the PC is fine; the PC is an open platform, so it doesn't limit choice. It just makes it harder for a no-name developer to get noticed.

    On a side note, I hope this also helps to curtail Early Access shenanigans. There are too many games that are being sold badly incomplete, and of those Early Access games, too many of them will never get finished. There's a dirty secret that I think everyone in the industry has had to re-learn the hard way: publishers suck, but having a middle-man funding game development means that at least games are more-or-less done before they are sold to consumers.

    1. Re:Unfortunate, But Necessary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They could achieve the same goals without the deposit by curating their store themselves. Making it a better experience for everyone.

      Of course they are hard up for cash so I can see why they cannot possibly do this.

    2. Re:Unfortunate, But Necessary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Driv3r was nowhere near done, and that was AAA.
      Myth 2 wiped your drive when you uninstalled it.
      Publishers don't really act as any kind of QA.

    3. Re:Unfortunate, But Necessary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't be fucking stupid. Cheap shit is cheap shit. Don't buy cheap shit.

    4. Re:Unfortunate, But Necessary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      "Having too many approximately equally good options is mentally draining because each option must be weighed against alternatives to select the best one". Which really, is kind of a horrific concept because it implies that choice (and competition) is bad.

      Well, that's more an issue of the point that games are fungible. If you're talking bread, light bulbs, or lumber for a house, having more choice and competition with approximately equally good options just means you can buy based heavily on price with some consideration on whatever few things you prefer that differentiate products. With games, of course, it's radically different precisely because two otherwise similar games are quite different, can't be played cooperatively/multiplayer with others, and each game is a massive time sink which precludes a lot of deep trial or enjoyment of many games* even with otherwise unlimited funds.

      But outside of AAA titles with large marketing budgets and immense brand recognition, most of the games in the Steam store are unknowns, so customers are coming in and facing too many choices without nearly enough information to choose between them.

      The funny thing is precisely that AAA titles are so well known for their "large marketing budgets" that I actually tend to avoid AAA titles. That and you pay a very large premium for an AAA title. Meanwhile, while I agree that Steam itself doesn't provide enough information about games (seeing a negative score is a useful cut off to not consider a game and negative reviews on mixed or even positive games can point out old/new game breaking issues), Youtube provides a very useful medium to watch reviews + gameplay (with no commentary) to get an idea on what the game is like.

      In the end, though, I'd agree it's a gamble. But, AAA titles are much more of a gamble than you tend to imply. Sure, you may know what to expect as far as gameplay. If anything, though, that's precisely the lack of innovation or originality that makes such games suck. If the point is to be merely a time wasting distraction, you'd be better off just playing tetris for the millionth time instead of wasting your money.

      Which isn't a problem if you already know exactly what you want (Call of Duty) and are just coming to the store to buy it. But it is a problem if you only know what kind of thing you want (a first-person shooter) and want to see what's available.

      If you want a FPS, play OpenArena or Sauerbraten. Maybe ET. Seriously, though, for most FPS (and MMOs and similar) the real metric should be a graph of average player counts, their general retention rate (which should indicate how good at balancing players the game is (among other things)), and their general geographical spread (because [potentially] low pings are almost always important). With so many Call of Duty, you can't rely upon any of that unless you and friends all agree on a game. If that's the case, you can all just agree on OpenArena.. :)

      * To give you an idea, I've got over 1000 games because bundles == cheap and I == idiot. Even invoking Sturgeon's law, the ratio of good games to prices paid at AAA prices still leaves me an idiot because I'm not going to play 100 games with enough dedication to justify the cost. So, you can read all the above with a grain of salt.

    5. Re:Unfortunate, But Necessary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Which at least for the PC is fine; the PC is an open platform, so it doesn't limit choice.

      That's only true in theory. A decade ago you could actually publish games outside of Steam. These days if your game is not on Steam it doesn't exist. All those alternatives people like to list only serve a single purpose: help get your game on Steam.

    6. Re:Unfortunate, But Necessary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That should be "Well, that's more an issue of the point that games aren't fungible." Games can't be made into a commodity in the same way a toothbrush can be (although in some limited scope they can).

    7. Re:Unfortunate, But Necessary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      On a side note, I hope this also helps to curtail Early Access shenanigans. There are too many games that are being sold badly incomplete, and of those Early Access games, too many of them will never get finished. There's a dirty secret that I think everyone in the industry has had to re-learn the hard way: publishers suck, but having a middle-man funding game development means that at least games are more-or-less done before they are sold to consumers.

      I think this move is to solve a different problem, the kind of games that are "finished" and sold with barely complete gameplay and stock graphics assets (see Jim Sterling's videos). Early Access seems like it was intended as a kind of "hey, come follow our development and maybe play beta versions", but there isn't really any incentive to fully release. Just look at all the EA survival/crafting games that make the top sales lists, and specifically at Ark which is still in Early Access but has released a full price retail expansion.

      I'd personally love to see two simple changes to the Early Access program that, from a consumer standpoint anyways, would eliminate my woes:
      1) No Early Access games in Steam sales. Seasonal, weekend deals, nothing until it's done.
      2) Unlimited refund period for Early Access titles.

    8. Re:Unfortunate, But Necessary by SlurpingGreen · · Score: 1

      I buy mostly indie games (>200 on steam). What I've noticed the last few years is a gradual increase in the number of games for sale and a decrease in the number of games I'm interested in. Some game gets insanely popular, like DayZ or Terraria, and developers scramble to make copies of it with minor variation.

      To me, there's a signaling problem at the heart of the game marketplace. I want a fun game that's well designed with good game play and that's insanely hard to do. Typically the way a developer shows they're serious is by increasing the production value with nice graphics, etc, but that says absolutely nothing about how good they are at making a fun game. Reviews don't fully flesh out the space since they correlate highly with fancy production values and the reviewer's personality isn't known. I suspect the optimal solution is a small set (~20) of known personalities as gatekeepers.

    9. Re:Unfortunate, But Necessary by unixisc · · Score: 1

      What about all the Xbox games that Microsoft has? There's nothing stopping anyone from developing games for Xbox, and that's not going to Steam

    10. Re:Unfortunate, But Necessary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Please tell me you're trolling? Or just stupid enough to believe that any incarnation of the XBox is open.

  6. Tax records? by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

    and tax documents similar to the process of applying for a bank account

    I've never been asked for tax documents when opening either a personal or business account. For personal accounts, government ID is good enough, and for a business account either the business registration or incorporation papers, and ID.

    --
    "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    1. Re:Tax records? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When opening a bank account in Australia, they asked for my TFN.
      When opening a bank account in the USA, they asked for my SSN (for tax reasons, because USA uses SSN for everything)

    2. Re:Tax records? by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      Here you're allowed to refuse to give the equivalent of an SSN (especially since kids aren't required to have one until 18). Of course, then you can be sure that any strange activity will be immediately flagged. You then have to provide sufficient alternate government ID to be able to identify yourself if you're an adult (driver's license, medicare card, passport, citizenship card, etc.) The SSN or SIN is only supposed to be used for employers and tax purposes.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
  7. Re:Pig in a poke... by hackwrench · · Score: 2

    That's all very well except everyone is selling a pig in a poke. And sometimes it's actually a cat.

  8. Poor customer service by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Steam customer service sucks. And if you don't like it too bad, they don't care.