Slashdot Mirror


JavaScript Attack Breaks ASLR On 22 CPU Architectures (bleepingcomputer.com)

An anonymous reader quotes a report from BleepingComputer: Five researchers from the Vrije University in the Netherlands have put together an attack that can be carried out via JavaScript code and break ASLR protection on at least 22 microprocessor architectures from vendors such as Intel, AMD, ARM, Allwinner, Nvidia, and others. The attack, christened ASLRCache, or AnC, focuses on the memory management unit (MMU), a lesser known component of many CPU architectures, which is tasked with improving performance for cache management operations. What researchers discovered was that this component shares some of its cache with untrusted applications, including browsers. This meant that researchers could send malicious JavaScript that specifically targeted this shared memory space and attempted to read its content. In layman's terms, this means an AnC attack can break ASLR and allow the attacker to read portions of the computer's memory, which he could then use to launch more complex exploits and escalate access to the entire OS. Researchers have published two papers [1, 2] detailing the AnC attack, along with two videos[1, 2] showing the attack in action.

157 comments

  1. CPUs, not CPU architecture by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    AllWinner does ARM (maybe MIPS), NVidia does ARM (don't think they do MIPS). There is a lot of x86_64. Same architecture: x86 64 bit (and maybe 32 bit), maybe different generations.

    1. Re:CPUs, not CPU architecture by MSTCrow5429 · · Score: 1

      I do think things like Skylake and K10 are different microarchs, even if using the same or almost identical IA. Otherwise, you're getting close to saying the P5 and P6 were the same microarchs.

      --
      Slashdot: Playing Favorites Since 1997
    2. Re:CPUs, not CPU architecture by sexconker · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You're confusing CPU architecture with instruction set architecture. They used to be the same (and in some cases still are) but most processors have a physical architecture that implements an ISA via microcode translation. With memory controllers (and a whole lot of other shit) on the same package. the term "architecture" has drifted even further from ISA and more toward the entire SoC.

  2. Layman's Terms by nuckfuts · · Score: 4, Funny

    In layman's terms, this means an AnC attack can break ASLR...

    'cause every layman knows what ASLR is.

    1. Re:Layman's Terms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Slashdot layman, I suppose.

    2. Re:Layman's Terms by El+Cubano · · Score: 5, Informative

      'cause every layman knows what ASLR is.

      I had the same thought. At first I thought it was related to digital photography. Here is what this is really all about: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Address_space_layout_randomization

      In layman's terms: Keeping the locations of things in memory unpredictable so that, for example, if I am trying to exploit some arbitrary code execution flaw I can't count that my code will end up in the place I want or expect it.

    3. Re:Layman's Terms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Every layman knows what google is though.

    4. Re:Layman's Terms by geek · · Score: 0

      In layman's terms, this means an AnC attack can break ASLR...

      'cause every layman knows what ASLR is.

      Do you know what Google is? I know, it's hard right?

    5. Re:Layman's Terms by Dunbal · · Score: 2

      Turns out it's not as random as they would want you to believe...

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    6. Re:Layman's Terms by mnouquet · · Score: 2
    7. Re:Layman's Terms by nuckfuts · · Score: 2

      For what's it's worth, I was already familiar with that acronym. I was questioning whether a layman would be.

      You seem to be confusing "Layman's terms" with "Anything that can be looked up on Google".

    8. Re:Layman's Terms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      All your base address are belong to us. Somebody set up us the bomb. Let's fighting love. I'm so Ronery.

    9. Re:Layman's Terms by nuckfuts · · Score: 2

      A definition of "layman's terms":

      simple language that anyone can understand

      Note how it doesn't say "...that anyone can look up the meaning of using a search engine".

    10. Re:Layman's Terms by epine · · Score: 5, Insightful

      A "layman" has no place in this discussion.

      I have trouble comprehending the small mental world you live in where all of your knowledge is equally available at all times.

      There's a reason why it's polite to gloss your acronyms on first use, even in the narrowest academic publications.

      Just yesterday I was reviewing the literature on machine learning. The Juergen Schmidhuber review alone begins with the following glossary:

      AE: Autoencoder
      BFGS: Broyden—Fletcher—Goldfarb—Shanno
      BNN: Biological Neural Network
      BM: Boltzmann Machine
      BP: Backpropagation
      BRNN: Bi-directional Recurrent Neural Network
      CAP: Credit Assignment Path
      CEC: Constant Error Carousel
      CFL: Context Free Language
      CMA-ES: Covariance Matrix Estimation ES
      CNN: Convolutional Neural Network
      CoSyNE: Co-Synaptic Neuro-Evolution
      CSL: Context Sensitive Language
      CTC: Connectionist Temporal Classification
      DBN: Deep Belief Network
      DCT: Discrete Cosine Transform
      DL: Deep Learning
      DP: Dynamic Programming
      DS: Direct Policy Search
      EA: Evolutionary Algorithm
      EM: Expectation Maximization
      ES: Evolution Strategy
      FMS: Flat Minimum Search
      FNN: Feedforward Neural Network
      FSA: Finite State Automaton
      GMDH: Group Method of Data Handling
      GOFAI: Good Old-Fashioned AI
      GP: Genetic Programming
      GPU: Graphics Processing Unit
      GPU-MPCNN: GPU-Based MPCNN
      HMM: Hidden Markov Model
      HRL: Hierarchical Reinforcement Learning
      HTM: Hierarchical Temporal Memory
      HMAX: Hierarchical Model "and X"
      LSTM: Long Short-Term Memory (RNN)
      MDL: Minimum Description Length
      MDP: Markov Decision Process
      MNIST: Mixed National Institute of Standards and Technology Database
      MP: Max-Pooling
      MPCNN: Max-Pooling CNN
      NE: NeuroEvolution
      NEAT: NE of Augmenting Topologies
      NES: Natural Evolution Strategies
      NFQ: Neural Fitted Q-Learning
      NN: Neural Network
      OCR: Optical Character Recognition
      PCC: Potential Causal Connection
      PDCC: Potential Direct Causal Connection
      PM: Predictability Minimization
      POMDP: Partially Observable MDP
      RAAM: Recursive Auto-Associative Memory
      RBM: Restricted Boltzmann Machine
      ReLU: Rectified Linear Unit
      RL: Reinforcement Learning
      RNN: Recurrent Neural Network
      R-prop: Resilient Backpropagation
      SL: Supervised Learning
      SLIM NN: Self-Delimiting Neural Network
      SOTA: Self-Organizing Tree Algorithm
      SVM: Support Vector Machine
      TDNN: Time-Delay Neural Network
      TIMIT: TI/SRI/MIT Acoustic-Phonetic Continuous Speech Corpus
      UL: Unsupervised Learning
      WTA: Winner-Take-All

      And it's but one of dozens of fields where I stick my finger into the alphabet pie.

    11. Re:Layman's Terms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Be patient with geek, he has had a bad day.

    12. Re:Layman's Terms by Rockoon · · Score: 2

      Keeping the locations of things in memory unpredictable so that, for example, if I am trying to exploit some arbitrary code execution flaw I can't count that my code will end up in the place I want or expect it.

      Close but not quite right.

      Its so that you can't count on OS/Host code being at a specific address. Your own code doesnt need to care what address its loaded at, even if its nefarious (every architecture has relative jump instructions.) The idea is that something like the browsers file i/o routines arent being placed at a predictable address, so your nefarious code cant just branch directly into them.

      The main flaw of address randomization is that address information can still leak through the stack if you can first make sure something that calls the routine you want to call has previously been called. For instance if you can save a cookie in your javascript code immediately before your injected code executes, then any routine the browser calls to save a cookie may now have its address right there on the stack for your injected code to grab.

      Its better than not doing it, but not entirely effective w.r.t. its purpose.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    13. Re:Layman's Terms by DontBeAMoran · · Score: 4, Funny
      --
      #DeleteFacebook
    14. Re:Layman's Terms by DontBeAMoran · · Score: 4, Funny

      What the hell is a search engine and how many cylinders does it have?

      --
      #DeleteFacebook
    15. Re:Layman's Terms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You were replying directly to a statement about acronyms.
      You are the one with the comprehension issues. At least try to make your trolls funny.

    16. Re:Layman's Terms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What I find amusing is that a layman apparently should know what ASLR is but doesn't need to know what MMU is.

    17. Re:Layman's Terms by Highdude702 · · Score: 1

      There's no way to tell, were still searching for it. Will be sure to tell you how many cylinders it has as soon as we find it

    18. Re:Layman's Terms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      go back to reddit dipshit

    19. Re:Layman's Terms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > where all of your knowledge is equally available at all times
      oh look. I typed "aslr" into google, and before it even displayed the results it gave me the proper definition. he lives in a small world? you're one of those people who can argue for hours and annoy the shit out of everyone I bet, about things normal people don't even give a thought to. like "see something I don't know, type into google" - and bam - instant correct answer. yeah, let's make a website where we need to define all computer terms in the summary and make it a page each, because everyone is too dumb to select the word they don't know and r-click search on it. we can call that site reddit. you should go there and stay there. moron.

    20. Re:Layman's Terms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I really like the Dilbert one.
      Any true random number generator should be able to output an infinite sequence of nines.
      If it can't then it has a statistical distribution that makes it predictable.

    21. Re:Layman's Terms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I know what Google is, and Startpage, and DuckDuckGo, amongst others, and it isn't hard.

      It also isn't hard to write "Address Space Layout Randomization (ASLR)" the first time the acronym is used in a text when the total effort of all the people who are going to to look it up is likely to be much larger than the effort to type those words. Yes. that is someone else's effort and not yours when you write a text, but if others do the same you benefit from that, and the total text effort of humanity while reading and writing texts, including yours, is reduced.

    22. Re:Layman's Terms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Eh, it *is* as random as the people who wrote ASLR said it was. It is also nearly as useless as the people behind GR-SECURITY said it would be ;-)

      The problem is that cache aliasing can be used to do a timing attack, and the timing attack can tell you where other important stuff is. This is a conceptual thing, so it affects pretty much everything that implemented memory caches, as they really share the same basic concepts.

      The solution is also known, but *NOT* widely available in hardware (and certainly not widely available in software yet): cache partitioning. When you partition cache, you break the aliasing. If you do it by flushing, it tanks performance and it is still subject to timing atacks. If you *really* partition the cache per hardware thread, you break all cross-thread cache aliasing sidechannels. If you really partition the cache per task group, you break cross-task-group aliasing sidechannels... You need a *lot* of cache, though, if you don't want to affect performance too much. It will hurt nowhere as bad as invalidating the cache on task switches, though.

      From what I recall, this is yet something *true* hardware virtualization as done on mainframes got right, and the el-cheap-o crap used in ARM and X86-64 did not (well, were it as good as the mainframe stuff, it would be just as expensive, so... :-p).

    23. Re:Layman's Terms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      At first I thought it was related to digital photography.

      Same. Well, sorta. I still thought it was camera related, but since DSLR stands for Digital SLR, my thought was that ASLR must stand for Analog SLR.

    24. Re:Layman's Terms by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 1

      "Do you know what Google is? I know, it's hard right?"

      Google (as a meta service) also relies on people explaining terms somewhere on the web...

      --
      A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
    25. Re:Layman's Terms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To be fair, if you're in security ASLR is one of those initialisms you know.

    26. Re:Layman's Terms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't you mean Fake Convolutional Neural Network?

    27. Re:Layman's Terms by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Not at all. I was referring to "laymen" in the discussion at hand, not to the acronym. But it takes 2 braincells to rub together to see that. You are obviously lacking them.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    28. Re:Layman's Terms by sjames · · Score: 1

      Of course, the bad code could also scan the process memory space to find the relocation table.

    29. Re: Layman's Terms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So is this really all they are saying: they read stack space that is unused to get info that may have been left there from other threads because of the way cache isn't cleared

    30. Re:Layman's Terms by thegarbz · · Score: 2

      oh look. I typed "aslr" into google

      Why did you do that? Because the summary was poorly written?

    31. Re: Layman's Terms by Rockoon · · Score: 0

      So is this really all they are saying: they read stack space that is unused to get info that may have been left there from other threads because of the way cache isn't cleared

      No. You arent even close to what they are saying.

      The attack vector talked about is measuring the time it takes to read memory addresses. Code that has been executed recently will be in the cpu's cache(s) and therefore can be read faster.

      Can I ask why someone with such poor comprehension on technical matters in reading slashdot?

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    32. Re:Layman's Terms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      'cause every layman knows what ASLR is.

      It's a type of camera isn't it? Like a DSLR, only different?

    33. Re:Layman's Terms by peawormsworth · · Score: 1

      well, not infinite.

    34. Re:Layman's Terms by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      What the hell is a search engine and how many cylinders does it have?

      I told the PHB it had 13 just to quiet him. However, he now gets nervous on Fridays.

      "Relax, I installed extra Flux Capacitors to shore it up. Can I have a raise?"

  3. javascript is incompatible with security by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    It's been every few days since javascript even came onto the scene that we have seen some exploit using javascript as an attack vector.

    It is a fundamentally flawed idea to run javascript that any random site happens to deliver to you. The number of ways that can go badly seems to be effectively endless.

    If you care at all about the security of your machine, you should not be running javascript by default. This is where a bunch of people come out of the woodwork to say "but we need it to view $RANDOMSITE!". First, you need it because you have trained web developers that it is OK to depend on it. Second, if it has legit uses once in a while, then whitelist those, rather than allowing any random site.
    Or, live with the endless series of exploits. Your call.

    1. Re:javascript is incompatible with security by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This thing can be done with anything. It is not a JavaScript exclusive issue.
      This sort of code could be embedded in seemingly fine software.
      Of course, yes, JS does need to be more locked down and more control on APIs / libraries from 3rd party websites on the users end by default.
      A lot of JS has been secured since the WHATWG era of webdev, unlike the shitheap we had from W3C days.
      But there's still a lot of work left to fix.

      Given what it does and how it works, it will be a hard one to deal with.
      An entire hardware feature was deleted from more modern processor designs because of a severe hack that affected every OS that runs on them.
      No fix at all, no alternative, just straight up removed. (admittedly it was a legacy feature for serial I believe, or parallel)
      So this might be a WONTFIX from software and older OSes and only be a new hardware exclusive fix.

    2. Re:javascript is incompatible with security by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The "exploit" could be expressed in any language -- it has nothing to do with Javascript intrinsically. The point is that something as high level as js can perform the aslr observation.

    3. Re:javascript is incompatible with security by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      OK, fair enough, but if it's expressed in another language (assuming it's not part of your OS) you have to explicitly get and run the malicious software. If it's javascript you get it just by visiting a web page with default browser settings.

      Delivery is different, even if in theory you could get it via some other means.

    4. Re:javascript is incompatible with security by Narcocide · · Score: 0

      Sigh. Fanatical children using json&jquery who don't know any better, modding you down like good little sheep. Someone has to stop giving them mod points.

    5. Re:javascript is incompatible with security by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Agreed. It WOULD be better if browsers held a site whitelist/blacklist for javascript as well as, (in Firefox anyway) one for passwords.

      What else might it be advantageous to be able to turn off site-by-site?

  4. How serendipitous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I just had a meeting with these guys discussing this with these guys, and now I'm reading about it on slashdot.

    1. Re:How serendipitous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      On a scale of 1 to 10, how fucked is my computer?

    2. Re:How serendipitous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      11

    3. Re:How serendipitous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Me too! Jim, is that you. It was a great presentation right. See you in the office tomorrow.

    4. Re:How serendipitous by DontBeAMoran · · Score: 1

      What do you mean? A binary or grey code 11?

      --
      #DeleteFacebook
    5. Re:How serendipitous by Narcocide · · Score: 1

      1011

  5. I only hope by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Somebody can tell me how I can block this attack with a HOSTS file?

    1. Re:I only hope by Narcocide · · Score: 1

      Why was THIS modded down? This would actually work... to some degree, if you had all the ad networks in there and didn't visit any malicious sites. (At least as far as for the *JavaScript* vector that is.)

    2. Re:I only hope by Etcetera · · Score: 1

      Why was THIS modded down? This would actually work... to some degree, if you had all the ad networks in there and didn't visit any malicious sites. (At least as far as for the *JavaScript* vector that is.)

      That's basically ludicrous. You're better off disabling javascript and flash and leaving your hosts file untouched.

      Actually, if you wanted a way to make the web more secure? Make all the browsers default only to Javascript 1.1 or some other ancient version with just enough built-in support for DOM tweaking to maybe update the status ticker, and then ban all cross-site loading of js files that's not HTTPS.

    3. Re:I only hope by cm5oom · · Score: 1

      It was downvoted because it wouldn't work. A large amount of scripts come from the same domain as html and css files and images. Host based blocking does not give you the fine grained control you'd need to block one but not the others. But somebody will say use a host file to block ad servers and some other fine grained blocker for the domains that matter to which I reply why use two blockers to do the job of one? This is why he who should not be named is such a worhtless troll, his solution doesn't actually solve real world problems.

  6. crazy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    who would run anything on a machine with 22 CPUs? That's just ASKING to have your ASLR broken, right?

    1. Re:crazy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      22 different CPU architectures... not a 22 core cpu

    2. Re:crazy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      Multi-CPU motherboards existed before multi-core CPUs. Kids these days...

      Personally, I would run my frying pan on a computer with 22 CPUs.

    3. Re:crazy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2

      With a special definition of 22: ARM from several manufacturers and x86 (Intel and AMD).
      So I personally count 2 (thumbs down for this way of counting).
      For example they do not mention any architecture that uses hashed page tables like Power (and others). Apparently their method only works on processors in which the MMU walks a tree on a page fault, and comes from the interaction of the page table walks with the caches. Hash based page tables do not have the same properties in this respect and (at least on Power), there are other, per memory space, kernel held secret quantities mixed up in the hash which seriously complicate getting the same information.
      I don't claim that it is impossible, but I'm sure that it is orders of magnitudes harder. In practice, the kernel secret for the hash and the ASLR offsets mix up in a way which seems impossible to separate.

    4. Re: crazy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Ohio Scientific's Challenger III had three CPU's 6800, 6502A, and a Z80. Programming in Assembly got fun...

    5. Re:crazy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Personally, I would run my frying pan on a computer with 22 CPUs.

      22 CPUs? If you'd gone with a Pentium 4 Prescott CPU then just one of them would have generated enough heat to run your frying pan.

    6. Re:crazy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, a motherboard that had a "dispatch" CPU to shuffle data around to multiple, pluggable CPU daughtercards would be a damned fine thing for a system that needed to emulate/virtualize multiple architectures. The next trick would be to have a "best CPU for the task at hand" algorithm for that dispatch CPU, paired with a JIT compiler.

      Increasingly, this sounds like an IBM mainframe. Bah.

    7. Re: crazy by alexgieg · · Score: 1

      Some people had Z80 expansion boards for their Apple IIe so as to run CP/M in them.

      --
      Conservatism: (n.) love of the existing evils. Liberalism: (n.) desire to substitute new evils for the existing ones.
  7. Not the whole story? by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 2

    So how exactly does this hurt me if the VM sandbox is secure? The paper seems to imply that you need other, much worse vulnerabilities to begin with to make use of this (beyond extracting information).

    --
    Ezekiel 23:20
    1. Re:Not the whole story? by Khyber · · Score: 1

      If you can read memory arbitrarily via this exploit, your sandbox is most certainly NOT secure. It's just another step to modifying memory contents after that and getting a full breakout.

      This exploit looks to be especially effective against cloud architecture as it currently stands.

      A whole lot of machines are inherently more compromised as a result of this, too. Because the idiot manufacturers do things like hard-locking a 64-bit system to 2GB of RAM (TOSHIBA and DELL and HP,) it makes ASLR essentially fucking useless, as it's a lot easier to attack the machine since there's much lower surface area to attack via the MMU.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    2. Re:Not the whole story? by manu0601 · · Score: 1

      If you can read memory arbitrarily via this exploit

      I understand the exploit lets the attacker discover the randomized addresses, and hence have the knowledge of where vulnerable stuff is loaded in memory. I suspect the notion of read protection bypass was added by the journalist.

    3. Re:Not the whole story? by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      If you can read memory arbitrarily via this exploit, your sandbox is most certainly NOT secure.

      True, for a broader definition of the word, it isn't. What I had in mind is contained execution of code.

      It's just another step to modifying memory contents after that

      How? How to this help you to create a hole where there isn't one? And if there is one, shouldn't that be addressed first?

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    4. Re:Not the whole story? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So how exactly does this hurt me if the VM sandbox is secure? The paper seems to imply that you need other, much worse vulnerabilities to begin with to make use of this (beyond extracting information).

      Because with ASLR, those other "much worse vulnerabilities"--which will always exist because bugs will always exist--could be stopped before executing their payload. But now that ASLR can be defeated, those bugs / vulnerabilities will work.

    5. Re:Not the whole story? by geoskd · · Score: 1

      How? How to this help you to create a hole where there isn't one? And if there is one, shouldn't that be addressed first?

      How about being able to intercept a plaintext password just after it has been typed by the user but before it has been encrypted for transmission to the next website? This can be especially effective in JS where users will visit many sites without closing their browser in between...

      That took all of 5 seconds to come up with. Give me a couple hours and I'm sure I could figure out some real doozys.

      --
      I wish I had a good sig, but all the good ones are copyrighted
    6. Re:Not the whole story? by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      So there's a way to read *arbitrary* data using the technique outlined here?

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    7. Re:Not the whole story? by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      which will always exist because bugs will always exist

      That's a rather pessimistic view. Memory safety of managed languages in particular does not constitute a tremendously high bar. Or do you provide opcodes for random peeks and pokes? You probably shouldn't.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    8. Re:Not the whole story? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's a rather pessimistic view.

      No, it's a very realistic view. It's precisely the reason ASLR has been implemented so broadly, to hopefully slow down the potential for attacks. And this, again, shows why it's very much a failure.

      Memory safety of managed languages in particular does not constitute a tremendously high bar. Or do you provide opcodes for random peeks and pokes? You probably shouldn't.

      Rowhammer. 33c3 - What could possibly go wrong with insert x86 instruction here No, we have a lot more to worry about than you pretend otherwise. And it's hardly an x86-only problem, as this attack in javascript proves.

    9. Re:Not the whole story? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How? How to this help you to create a hole where there isn't one?

      Quite a few systems in use can be exploited with rowhammer. So a hole is already there and rowhammer requires writes to adjacent memory, knowing were your target is located is critical. Basically the hardware already allows exploits and software depends on security through obscurity to mitigate that, which makes this information leak dangerous.

    10. Re:Not the whole story? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So how exactly does this hurt me if the VM sandbox is secure? The paper seems to imply that you need other, much worse vulnerabilities to begin with to make use of this (beyond extracting information).

      It isn't necessarily secure. For instance the windows sandbox in Chrome is just redirecting standard library calls so they are forced through the sandbox by default. If you can access the original version, you have already escaped. Of course that is because it is a shit sandbox, but many sandboxes have cat poop in them.

    11. Re:Not the whole story? by bws111 · · Score: 2

      ASLR is not memory protection. Breaking ASLR does not give read nor write access to any memory that the process did not already have. ASLR was introduced to help mitigate a bunch of buffer overflow attacks, by not having a 'predicatable' address that the attacker could branch to to execute his malicious code.

      So exactly HOW are you going to intercept that password, using a technique that would not be possible if ASLR was not broken?

    12. Re:Not the whole story? by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 1

      So how exactly does this hurt me if the VM sandbox is secure? The paper seems to imply that you need other, much worse vulnerabilities to begin with to make use of this (beyond extracting information).

      Breaking out of a sandbox in a non ASLR virtual memory space is a solved problem. ASLR was developed to help prevent all the malware that worked that way.

      --
      I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
    13. Re:Not the whole story? by erapert · · Score: 1
    14. Re:Not the whole story? by bws111 · · Score: 1

      Which has absolutely nothing to do with ASLR. In fact, since it was published in 2015 ASLR was most likely in use for that attack and did not stop it.

    15. Re:Not the whole story? by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      Isn't that an argument for ubiquitious ECC, rather? This is an abstraction failure.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    16. Re:Not the whole story? by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      Breaking out of a sandbox in a non ASLR virtual memory space is a solved problem.

      Could you direct me to instructions on how I do this in my Smalltalk VM, for example?

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    17. Re:Not the whole story? by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 1

      Breaking out of a sandbox in a non ASLR virtual memory space is a solved problem.

      Could you direct me to instructions on how I do this in my Smalltalk VM, for example?

      Nope. Not without a generously funded pen testing contract.
      You can find your own references on how to do it in a browser.

      --
      I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
    18. Re:Not the whole story? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, ECC is not fool-proof and tests have shown that rowhammer can work against it as well. It's just more difficult to exploit with ECC (just like ASLR). More generally, though, I'd like to see ECC everywhere, anyways. It's just not the panacea just like ASLR or "a focus on security" has been. The real question, of course, is the trade-off in performance. I've seen on LWM proposals for various changes that "only" decrease performance by 10% for security purposes--and obviously, they weren't offering a panacea either but merely a mitigation against a certain type of attack.

      So, I think making DRAM more robust against rowhammer in other ways than ECC is probably a better idea than trying to go ECC everywhere. After all, the capacity lost (due to the die size of using ECC everywhere) will decrease performance at some level. Beyond that, my guess is that something like a rowhammer attack against the APU might work (repeatedly engaging certain instructions to induce a second instruction to act in addition).

  8. BeauHD by PopeRatzo · · Score: 4, Funny

    I thought Slashdot was supposed to be a tech site. What does Javascript attacks breaking ASLR on 22 microprocessor architectures have to do with tech?

    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
    1. Re: BeauHD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the pope speaks

    2. Re:BeauHD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well the researchers were gender-neutral albinos with Aspbergers. That is the most important thing.

  9. Ha! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is why computer architectures need a complete overhaul. Pick up a copy of "Inside The AS/400" for a better understanding of what security could be like.

    1. Re:Ha! by Wootery · · Score: 1

      Could you summarise?

  10. In layman's terms ... by AHuxley · · Score: 1

    When was it broken and who is breaking it in the wild?
    Security services? Federal law enforcement with lots of funding? Government workers? Private sector? Groups of very smart people?
    People with skills and a few powerful computers? People reusing code created by people with skills and one home computer?
    Any news on ip ranges and time zones?

    --
    Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    1. Re:In layman's terms ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your questions are grotesquely stupid. Everything is answered in the linked article.

  11. In lay terms you say ... by CaptainDork · · Score: 1

    In layman's terms, this means an AnC attack can break ASLR and allow the attacker to read portions of the computer's memory, which he could then use to launch more complex exploits and escalate access to the entire OS.

    Whaaaa....??

    --
    It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
    1. Re:In lay terms you say ... by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 1

      Whaaaa....??

      I feel the same way. Where's the damned car analogy?

      --
      #DeleteChrome
    2. Re:In lay terms you say ... by jeremyp · · Score: 4, Funny

      You have got a car with Piers Morgan sitting in it. An attacker wants to head butt him in the face (trying to think of a backronym for AnC for this - I have Attacker Nuts... but I can't think of a word beginning with C that describes Piers Morgan) so, for his own protection, you choose where he sits in the car by a random process (Arsehole Seat Location Randomisation), so the chances are the attacker opens the wrong door.

      Anyway, it turns out that you can tell by how the car is riding on its springs where Piers Morgan is.

      --
      All I want is a secure system where it's easy to do anything I want. Is that too much to ask ~~ Randall Munroe
    3. Re:In lay terms you say ... by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 1

      You have got a car with Piers Morgan sitting in it. An attacker wants to head butt him in the face (trying to think of a backronym for AnC for this - I have Attacker Nuts... but I can't think of a word beginning with C that describes Piers Morgan) so, for his own protection, you choose where he sits in the car by a random process (Arsehole Seat Location Randomisation), so the chances are the attacker opens the wrong door.

      Given what I've heard regarding Piers Morgan, I'd probably want to help the attacker identify the correct door!

      --
      #DeleteChrome
  12. Maybe it's time to return to LISP machines by presidenteloco · · Score: 3, Interesting

    No, semi-seriously.

    The concept of a LISP machine was a computer which only executed one programming language, at least only one language in which non built-in code would execute.
    And that language was memory secure, in that it packaged memory use into high-level cells which referenced each other in a single standard way.

    There was no way that a process could "break out" and access something else's memory. A LISP program running in one process only understood and could access its own linked memory cells.

    This was enough programming freedom to program whatever you wanted, and the point is, the memory model was simple, uniform, and thereby secure.

    I'm not exactly saying return to LISP machines. I'm saying return to an architecture which includes a simple and secure memory access model, with no workarounds to the high-level memory cell access permitted. This could be enforced at the machine-language level, and/or by restricting allowed programming languages to inherently memory-secure ones.

    --

    Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
    1. Re:Maybe it's time to return to LISP machines by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      Since then, Multiple JAVA architectures were invented. Hardware whose instruction set is binary compatible with JVM's byte code.

      I'd rather not. These things are a failure in the market for a reason.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    2. Re:Maybe it's time to return to LISP machines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      This is more of a side-channel attack. It looks like it works by timing how long it takes to access memory. Since cache misses are so expensive, it's easy to determine when you're encountered one, and so you can't easily guard against this.

      dom

    3. Re:Maybe it's time to return to LISP machines by FoodOverdose · · Score: 1

      Interesting. How would you implement shared memory in parallel processing computation(assuming that such type of machine would be multitaskable). Piping data around seems to be inefficient.
      I've trouble imagining how this consept would prevent me to break out of this sandboxish environment otherwise LISP functions _is_ chip instructions. If they are not there is theoretical possibility to change pointers. Can you elaborate on that idea?

    4. Re:Maybe it's time to return to LISP machines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How is that different from the virtual memory model used everywhere? An ordinary application cannot form physical memory addresses, but only virtual addresses. To convert these, the CPU looks up the virtual-to-real mapping in the page table. Two applications with non-overlapping page table entries cannot write to each others memory, just like your two LISP applications can't.

      The big benefit of the page table approach is of course that it's not restricted to LISP; even "dangerous" C applications with "raw pointers" cannot defeat this approach.

      Yes, shared memory, shared filesystems and OS bugs can all be used as alternative attack vectors, but the same would hold for that LISP machine.

    5. Re:Maybe it's time to return to LISP machines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The language and environment aren't the problem. It's the implementation that always has unforeseen side effects. Java is supposed to be bytecode running in a virtual machine. That's should be more protected than a LISP compiled program. Yet flaws in the JVM are discovered and exploited.

    6. Re:Maybe it's time to return to LISP machines by EndlessNameless · · Score: 1

      If you cannot share memory between processes, you take a performance hit every time you need to share data. For some applications, this is a deal-breaker.

      If you can share memory in anyway, that sharing mechanism can be broken somehow.

      Pick your poison.

      (P.S. - The market made its choice long ago.)

      --

      ---
      According to the latest ruleset, this post should be modded as Vorpal Flamebait +5.
    7. Re:Maybe it's time to return to LISP machines by presidenteloco · · Score: 1

      Isn't it enough to be able to share memory between threads, rather than full processes, for most concurrent programming purposes?

      I stipulated that no programs except for those written in the single high-level language would be permitted to run on the machine. And that language would be designed to only allow secure, in-bounds memory access, via use of a high-level memory model such as LISP uses.

      So how would you write the exploit and get it to execute on the machine? You'd write it in the LISP equivalent language?

      Sure, such a machine would lack bleeding edge performance due to the memory abstraction, but on the other hand today's processors are probably 30,000 times faster than a LISP machine's was, and those ran fine.
      So what if all my programs are 5 to 10 times slower or whatever than those running in a more general, but dangerous architecture.
      I believe there would be a use for machines locked down from the bottom up in this manner, e.g. wherever security is at a premium and we don't have the absolutely most compute-intensive applications to run.

      --

      Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
  13. Why? by PPH · · Score: 2

    this component shares some of its cache with untrusted applications, including browsers

    Why does the MMU need to give user space apps access to its cache? Isn't the O/S, firmware and microcode supposed to provide a logical view of hardware like memory to prevent this sort of abuse?

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
    1. Re:Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Asking the real questions here...

    2. Re:Why? by elfprince13 · · Score: 1

      AFAICT, the MMU cache isn't exposed, it's just using the same cache hardware on-chip, and you can time how long it takes to access certain things to figure out what's currently mapped into the cache (there are orders of magnitude difference in speeds for main memory vs cache, so even if you have no idea what's *in* cache, you can figure out where it's from). Also, breaking ASLR tells you *where* to read, but it shouldn't be able to tell you what's there without additional exploits being available.

    3. Re: Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For the same reason Chrome stopped doing revocation checking on TLS - speed , the user perception of faster

    4. Re:Why? by phantomfive · · Score: 4, Informative

      It doesn't try to, it's a side-channel attack. So, ASLR pads elements with a random amount of free space, so a hacker doesn't know where to jump to. This attack figures out how big the free space is, by figuring out where the end of a cache line is. It figures out where the end of a cache line is by looking at the memory access times. So:

      x = a[n]; //runs in .5microseconds
      x = a[n+1]; //runs in 10 microseconds

      You know you hit a cache miss on the second access, and the end of a cache line is right between a[n] and a[n+1]. Based on the offset from where the cache would normally be, you can figure out how big the ASLR padding is. Once you know the padding size, you can know exactly which address to jump to to when you inject your shell code (ie, your compiled assembly exploit).

      There are other ways to defeat ASLR too, so I am not sure how useful this is, but the more techniques a hacker has, the better (from his perspective).

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    5. Re:Why? by mentil · · Score: 2

      It doesn't. A high-precision timer is used to execute a timing attack to infer what the cache contains; major browsers nixed their built-in javascript high-precision timers, but they managed to cobble together their own (from allowed javascript functions, presumably), which incidentally reintroduces old timing attacks like RowHammer. Browsers can fudge javascript timing, but the larger problem would remain. Presumably, microcode updates could fix this.

      --
      Corruption is convincing someone that the selfless ideal is the same as their selfish ideal.
    6. Re:Why? by PPH · · Score: 1

      x = a[n]; //runs in .5microseconds
      .
      .
      .

      OK. So you know where your data sits in the cache.

      you can know exactly which address to jump to

      What sort of shit-tier system are we running that allows us to jump to a location in data? Oh, yeah. JavaScript.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    7. Re:Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What sort of shit-tier system are we running that allows us to jump to a location in data? Oh, yeah. JavaScript.

       
      This is more than a js problem, you can do it in several languages that can do inline assembly.

  14. We should be able to browse without JavaScript by FeelGood314 · · Score: 1

    Where I work we make security and authentication tools. Half the western world uses our products to authenticate themselves. Our products shouldn't use javascript. I would prefer that everyone in the world browse the internet with javascript turned off by default. If you go to a site you trust then turn it on. Unfortunately my own company forces people to use javascript because it makes sites look shiny and modern and pages are more responsive.(assuming you load 4MB of javascript bloat to a simple login page)

  15. Commodore Amiga for the WIN!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    68xxx rulzes!!!!

  16. Is It Real? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't understand. The researchers said browsers have fuzzed their Javascript timer to block cache timing attacks so they had to make their own timer. So for their attack to be successful you need a browser with a customized Javascript engine? Why is the attack a big deal, no one is running a browser like that. Or did they somehow make a better timer purely out of Javascript? They aren't clear in this regard, but I'd expect vendors wouldn't be so interested in this attack unless they had made a new, portable timer. I'm so confused and it seem so far no one has noticed this despite their timer disclaimer being colored red in their article...

  17. "Lesser known" by phantomfive · · Score: 2

    If the MMU is lesser known to you, then the ALU is going to blow your mind. Just don't look at MMX, it's ugly.

    --
    "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    1. Re:"Lesser known" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually all CPU components are lesser known... because no one gives a fuck

  18. Re:scripting is incompatible with security by hackwrench · · Score: 1

    It may draw the ire of those who feel that he was overspecific to indentify javascript. Scripting and maybe more specifically scripting from untrustworthy sources is the problem, and I don't know where, for example, going from HTML to HTML + CSS, to full blown scripting the problem occurs.

    That's sort of inaccurate as well, scripting itself is overspecific for executable code in general.

  19. Re:That's not archetecture by hackwrench · · Score: 1

    ARM and x86 are instruction sets not architectures.

  20. Hosts block scripts faster vs. NoScript by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hosts do so in 1 step blocking scriptsource (ads/trackers offsite) before NoScript inefficiently parses tags! APK Hosts File Engine 9.0++ SR-7 32/64-bit https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&biw=&bih=&q=%22APK+Hosts+File+Engine%22+and+%22start64%22&btnG=Google+Search&gbv=1/

    Hosts add speed (via hardcodes/adblocks), security (vs. bad sites/malware/poisoned dns), reliability (vs. dns down), & anonymity (vs. dns requestlogs/trackers).

    Ads/malware rob speed/security/privacy

    Less power/cpu/ram + IO vs. DNS/routers/addons/antivirus + less security bugs/complexity & faster vs. addons/routers/remote dns!

    * Via what you NATIVELY have built in the IP stack in FASTER kernelmode!

    APK

    P.S. - Safe https://www.virustotal.com/en/file/e01211ca36aa02e923f20adee0a3c4f5d5187dc65bdf1c997b3da3c2b0745425/analysis/1433430542/ & virusproof HyperAlloy Combat Chassis - Microprocessor controlled: Fully Armored, VERY tough code construction... apk

  21. Better link: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There is a better link here:https://www.vusec.net/projects/anc/

  22. Article and/or citation are garbage by tietokone-olmi · · Score: 1

    >, which is tasked with improving performance for cache management operations.

    Stopped reading right there. These guys have no idea what they're talking about.

    1. Re:Article and/or citation are garbage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ooooh! Arrogant AND dismissive. +5
      Care to explain exactly why you think they've no idea what they're talking about?
      Another 5 points if you can explain it in terms non-CS, yet fairly technical people can understand?
      If you can't, then say so.

    2. Re:Article and/or citation are garbage by tietokone-olmi · · Score: 1

      The simple version is, "that's not what a MMU does at all".

  23. Re:scripting is incompatible with security by sexconker · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Don't run code you don't trust.
    Javascript is code, no matter how much your browser tries to sandbox it or put shackles on it, it's going to be flying around in your CPU if you let it run.
    If you don't trust the Javascript, don't run it.

    There are 3 points to this problem:

    Shitty fucking developers write shitty fucking websites that NEED Javascript to function.
    Shitty fucking users like shiny, stupid shit and encourage that behavior.
    Shitty fucking browsers let it all run by default and focus on speed, not security to please the shitty fucking users.
    (And this loops back to shitty fucking developers seeing that they can bloat up their site even more because Chrome v8247 tweaked Javascript regex performance to be 2.8% faster.)

  24. Re:That's not archetecture by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No, they have run on 22 different implementations of 2 architectures. Maybe up to 4 if there are 32 and 64 bit variants of both x86 and ARM. But ASLR on 32 bit is ineffective because you have too few bits to play with, although the interactions between TLB misses and cache are probably harder to measure because the page make fewer accesses (2 or 3 versus 4 or 5, much more in virtual machines).
    On the other hand, hashed page tables have very poor locality of reference, I believe that the ideal MMU should use a tree for the last 2 levels of page walk and a sideband hash table for the most significant address bits. The hash table could be kept small, and have more consistent performance behavior on page table look-ups. The other advantage of hashed page tables is that, when done right, they implicitly provide a per memory space identifier.

  25. Bad reporting by slew · · Score: 4, Informative

    This new Java script attack does *NOT* by itself compromise data, but simply allow a way to remotely extract the Address Space Layout Randomization that is currently employed by the OS. It does this by employing a javascript timer to measure page table walk times which are induced by executing javascript that accesses carefully selected offset in large objects (an earlier attempt to do this was frustrated by javascript implementations deliberately sabotaging the built-in high precision timer object). Once the specific ASLR pattern is determined for this specific boot of the kernel, other kernel vulnerabilities that involved direct access to aliased cache and/or memory locations that were mitigated by the kernel doing ASLR can now be modified to target the desired addresses on the target.

    It's like knowing how to make key to break into a specific car, but if you use it on the wrong car, it triggers the car alarm and not knowing what car the key it works on. If you magically had a way to map the VIN to the car key, you could make a key that works for that car and steal the car. The car dealers have this mapping, so they can make a key for you, but what someone came up with a way to figure out the VIN->KEY mapping over the internet?

    1. Re:Bad reporting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The question is why have the researchers published this information without a fix in sight, instead of only disclosing it to affected vendors?

    2. Re:Bad reporting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It has been responsibly disclosed for over 3 months through the Dutch CERT. Apple has already implemented some (undisclosed) fixes against the attack in their latest Safari update (which also acks the research group).

      Given that this the typical academic research group is at most a couple of dozen people, one can imagine that such attacks are quite likely already in the hands of state agents. So the real question should be about the apathy of the majority of the vendors.

    3. Re:Bad reporting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In layman terms, it's like you already know how to make a nuclear explosive device, and now you also know how to build a rocket to deliver it.

    4. Re:Bad reporting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's like knowing how to make key to break into a specific car, but if you use it on the wrong car, it triggers the car alarm and not knowing what car the key it works on. If you magically had a way to map the VIN to the car key, you could make a key that works for that car and steal the car. The car dealers have this mapping, so they can make a key for you, but what someone came up with a way to figure out the VIN->KEY mapping over the internet?

      Thanks to the internet, you can try a few million cars at the same time..

    5. Re:Bad reporting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's like knowing how to make key to break into a specific car, but if you use it on the wrong car, it triggers the car alarm and not knowing what car the key it works on. If you magically had a way to map the VIN to the car key, you could make a key that works for that car and steal the car. The car dealers have this mapping, so they can make a key for you, but what someone came up with a way to figure out the VIN->KEY mapping over the internet?

      Thanks to the internet, you can try a few million cars at the same time..

      Assuming you start from a zero-day, you will trigger a few-million (minus 1) kernel crashes to visitors to your site (which has the javascript) and you might just only end up owning some 12-yo's netbook before you trigger the anti-virus maker's honeypots and kill your payload... That is why hacking ASLR is *slightly* important.

    6. Re:Bad reporting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thank you, I found the hardening information about Safari. I will use Safari exclusively since other vendors don't seem to give a shit about this.

  26. lesser known? by sad_ · · Score: 1

    So the MMU is a lesser known part of the CPU these days? *sigh*

    --
    On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
  27. it has 8 by tomxor · · Score: 1

    Google uses a v8 apparently: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

  28. Re:scripting is incompatible with security by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Dude, at the end of the day, unless you've written ever bit of code your computer is running yourself, you'll be running code you can't trust 100%.
    Whether it's some shitty JavaScript in the browser or some shitty telemetry gathering shit in the shitty OS, you might well be boned.

  29. Re:scripting is incompatible with security by Pascoea · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Yes, because every web page should be a static HTML document with zero interactivity. And web applications are a fad that will go away soon.

  30. Wonder if antivirus has anything to do with it... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Wonder if antivirus has anything to do with it...

    http://robert.ocallahan.org/2017/01/disable-your-antivirus-software-except.html

    For example, back when we first made sure ASLR was working for Firefox on Windows, many AV vendors broke it by injecting their own ASLR-disabled DLLs into our processes. Several times AV software blocked Firefox updates, making it impossible for users to receive important security fixes.

  31. In other words by JustAnotherOldGuy · · Score: 1

    In other words, we've created CPUs with instruction set architectures so sophisticated that they can't be made safe from exploitation.

    I may not understand the solution (if there is one), but I certainly admire the problem.

    --
    Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
  32. Re:scripting is incompatible with security by JustAnotherOldGuy · · Score: 1

    Only terrorists need javascript. We must ban it to prevent it from sapping and impurifying all of our precious bodily fluids.

    (My apologies to General Jack D. Ripper)

    --
    Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
  33. Re:scripting is incompatible with security by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There are some shitty users connected to the shitty internet without knowing what they are doing in the first place. And that's how the problem gets started.

  34. no replacement for displacement by Thud457 · · Score: 1

    That's because Google is an American company.
    Baidu on the other hand, uses a 4-cylinder Boxer search engine.
    And Bing uses that pathetic GMC 3-cylinder they used in the Hummer H3.

    --

    the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

    1. Re:no replacement for displacement by tomxor · · Score: 1

      No that's what they used to use... these days they have gotten very good at cloning western technology and manufacturing them better, they just haven't gotten down the original design part yet - not that it's an obstacle in a country where all foreign copyright has no rights :P ... In all seriousness though and as much as I dislike Baidu that's actually not very kind because there are some really smart people working there on original AI research.

    2. Re:no replacement for displacement by tomxor · · Score: 1

      Spot on with the Bing analogy though

  35. my CPU sense stopped tingling by Thud457 · · Score: 1
    Just imagine my confusion when I first scanned that as :

    "Javascript Attack Breaks ASMR on 22 CPU Architectures"

    --

    the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

  36. Re:That's not archetecture by hackwrench · · Score: 1

    No, the appropriate response would be to justify the belief that ARM and x86 are architectures and not merely instruction sets that architectures like Kaby Lake and Coppermine implement.

  37. Re:scripting is incompatible with security by sproketboy · · Score: 1

    Point to me a decent web site that could be developed without JavaScript. Please do.

  38. Re:could be by hackwrench · · Score: 1

    It depends on how lenient you are about accepting examples that depend on nonexistent standards. If standards were created that implemented functions that were only good for exactly one task instead of a general purpose language, the web would be much more secure.

  39. Re:scripting is incompatible with security by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You managed to pick the chief language that doesn't run on CPU's. JavaScript is interpreted; compilation to CPU instructions is not viable. The trick here is to get the script interpreter to expose ASLR details to the script. That's part of why it's so CPU-independent.

  40. No, it cannot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You should be able to run ANY high level language in a sandbox from within a browser with complete safety. If you cannot, then your language and/or browser is being coded by a chimpanzee who THINKS he's a young (millenial?) talented well-educated coder. Being able to produce junk is no sign of talent.

    If you are not running machine code (which NO browser should allow), then you are running something interpreted by some other code (in this case a Javascript implementation) and probably hosted by some code (Explorer/Chrom/Firefox...) and NONE of this code should permit any high level code brought in via the browser to have ANY low-level access to the hardware or the underlying file system. To the extent that ANY code loaded into a browser via a web page is allowed to do ANYTHING even potentially dangerous or malicious on a machine, it's the exposure of complete programmer malpractice by bozos who are apparently more script-kiddie than serious programmer and who are spending more time adding new user interface features and new fad features than getting basic core functionality working. Probably this incompetence involves pasting together lots of piles of open source software and sticking it all together with the code equivalent of chewing gum, that stretchy fabric blood banks use to stop your arm leaking, and super glue.

    I'm sorry to go on such a rant, but as a guy who works in the aerospace end of things where people are killed by ANY unsafe code ( work on "in-flight entertainment" idiocy) I have little patience for the over-payed morons of silicon valley who are always advertising their superior "innovation" and so-on while constructing systems so unsafe, brittle, insecure, and just plain crappy that they should not be entrusted to run a coffee machine. You are not an actual programmer if you are producing production code with bugs this bad, you are a foolish, undereducated, inexperienced, incompetent hack.

    If you write code that can be hijacked and used for bad purposes, you should be banished from coding forever; please find a job in the lawn care profession or at a place wheree you cans spend your time asking "do you want fries with that" and stop screwing up the planet with your incompetence and giving MY profession a bad name.

  41. edit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Stupid buggy browser apparently screwed-up my posting (facepalm)

    The parentheses SHOULD have said: (I do not work on "in-flight entertainment" idiocy)

    It was right on my screen. I cannot believe how badly written/tested internet-related software is getting.

  42. Re:Hosts block scripts faster vs. NoScript by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You are a worthless sack of shit. Advertise your crap where people might care about it.

  43. Re:scripting is incompatible with security by thegarbz · · Score: 2

    Don't run code you don't trust.

    Not possible on a modern computer. But thanks for the advice.

  44. Re:could be by sproketboy · · Score: 1

    The problem is that it's designed to be insecure because it's based solely on the advertising model. Somehow the old AOL subscription model is not seeming so bad these days.

  45. Unique Nature of webapps by rrajdev · · Score: 0
  46. Re:scripting is incompatible with security by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    One could argue that static HTML is also code. The only way to be safe is to block all outside data. Don't run anything that you haven't written and don't connect to any networks that you don't control all of the devices on. I recommend burning your computer and living in a cave. Blocking javascript is a slippery slope that leads to schizophrenia.