Slashdot Mirror
Apple Files 14-Point Appeal Against European Commission's $14 Billion Tax Edict (appleinsider.com)
An anonymous reader shares an AppleInsider report: Apple has filed its appeal with the European court of appeals, all declaring that the European Commission's decision to levy $14 billion in taxes on Apple on behalf of the EU is erroneous, against the rule of law, and should be stricken. The 14 points of appeal introduced by Apple on Monday challenge the European Commission (EC) on several fronts. Primarily, Apple contests that the Cork, Ireland, headquarters of Apple's European wing was properly set up, in accordance with all regulations and laws. Additionally, other apparent accounting blunders by the EC while making its decision were brought up as well. Apple points out that the taxable income attributed to the Ireland branch was misapplied, giving more weight to the Irish operation than it should, and that back taxes were being applied to worldwide profits.
Apple just need to hang on. The EU will see its own demise pretty soon.
Well, Apple.
The EU is applying the back taxes to worldwide profits, as Apple is choosing to transfer those profits
to the EU using IP licensing charges, and therefore those profits ARE present in the EU.
That, kids, is why they play this game. They hide worldwide profits in a tax haven, but now they want to
pretend they didnt do that.. Boo Hoo.
3 hours for msmash to post a second EU story. But Apple, yay!
Well, it takes a thief to catch a thief.
1. Apple pays the taxes and admits no wrongdoing, quietly sweeping this incident under the rug and hoping to never have to endure it again by greasing more than just irish hands
2. Ireland admits it illegally undertaxed apple and skirted EU tax laws, thus opening up cause for additional investigation of facebook, google, and other megacorps that conveniently headquartered in Ireland because of, er, the weather.
Good people go to bed earlier.
The EU is applying the back taxes to worldwide profits, as Apple is choosing to transfer those profits
to the EU
Apple doesn't transfer U.S. profits to to the EU, so how is it fair for the E.U. to tax Apple on U.S. profits again exactly?
That, kids, is why they play this game.
There are $14 billion reasons why the EU is playing this game but legality or fairness is not one of them.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
maybe they would not have been if Apple had not been using the Ireland operation to funnel worldwide profits there to dodge local taxes worldwide.......
look if apple had wanted to pay the taxes locally it could have, but instead it chose to funnel them there,
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
3. Apple pays Ireland seven billion dollars to leave the E.U.
Or you can think of any variant you like of "what can Apple do with up to fourteen billion Euros that would cause the E.U. to back off".
As the old saying goes: Billions for defense, but not one cent for tribute!
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Already! Any normal American would be in PRISON for 10,000 years by now!
Well, Apple is losing ground on China, I'm pretty sure they don't want to lose a market as big as Europe... just saying.
Your mistake is in assuming Apple isn't abiding by all the local laws. They did, but the EU thought they could change the laws and apply taxes retroactively.
Generically this category of taxation is called either communism or fraud.
Actually, it's millions,
No - in the story in question, it is billions... You may want to familiarize yourself with the concept of paraphrasing.
It's makes you writing much more interesting and relevant when using old quotes.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Ireland was part of an agreement that set minimum corporate taxes. They ignored the agreement, therefore Apple owes money.
If you got a letter saying you owed a buck and a quarter in taxes
Apple's cash after you remove current debt is roughly $200 billion (conservative estimate as they have over $50 billion in debts).
!4 billion in Euros is roughly $14,814,100,000 billion US, or almost fifteen billion...
That means that what the E.U. is asking for is 7.5% of Apple's cash. I don't know how much you make but I assure you that in my case 7.5% of my house and savings comes to quite a lot more than $1.25, and in fact I would be taking that up with the tax court if I felt they were wrong.
Regardless, you're on Slashdot shilling for your favorite consumer electronics company.
It's a new definition of shilling to claim that fighting injustices is equal to promoting a company. I'm not promoting Apple - I'm saying what the E.U. is doing is theft, and would say the same thing about any company the E.U. s trying to illegally steal money from.
Look, they know they're tax cheats.
You "know" that, but then you know so many things that are not so...
Let it go, man. Let it go.
That is what I'm advising the E.U. to do. And you; why do you care about what the E.U. and Apple are doing in Europe? I am interested because I have a small financial interest, I own some Apple stock (big surprise). But what is YOUR deal that you care so much to post so fervently on the topic? That is super creepy man.
P.S. by your own argument you cannot care that I own Apple stock, because the amount you claim is so little it would have no effect on Apple cash and therefore share price to give it up, right? Ha! We'll see your tune change soon enough I'm sure.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Look Apple, if you don't pay your taxes, you will give us liberals a bad name! Tax the rich! Yes we can! Stronger together! I'm with her!
I'm too lazy to read it all. Is it basically like this....
If US tax authority looking for taxes on sales, then: "We are an Irish company...stop looking at our global revenues!"
If EU tax authority looking for taxes on sales, then: "We are a US company... stop looking at our global revenues!"
...and we will let you off all profit on which tax has been paid. All profit that has not had tax paid on it is due.
I love stacking my barbecues in the shed at the end of summer - you can't beat a bit of grill on grill action.
You are mistakenly assuming "tax dodge" means "illegal tax evasion". When it more likely means "improper tax avoidance".
Care to try again?
Learn to love Alaska
Should Apple just hand over $14B or spend $20M on a strategy with a 10% chance of paying $0?
How much an Apple is like a Big Mac.
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
Timmy will get butt-fucked 14-different ways!
Ha ha
They must think the E.U. is having trouble seeing things their way.
If this doesn't work they'll use 24 points to make a bigger impact.
This issue is very simple to solve with a few changes to tax policy.
1. Remove deductions for Intellectual Property payments. This is the chief way corporations avoid tax. Example, Burger King / Tim Horton merger.
2. Profit, no matter where situated, is taxable in the country of origin. Example: If Apple sells 100 billion in the US, then the gross profit of that 100 billion is due in the US. Self dealing exchange of expenses by off shoring 99.9% of the price of the phone (or other product/service) would no longer be allowed.
These steps will never be taken because they would be incredibly disruptive in the first place, and in the second place, there is no will in Washington to make corporations or billionaires actually pay taxes as the average person does.
Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.
Know for a fact a very large company,nearly Apple size, uses the same method through another EU country.Friend did their tax returns for years.
They are trying to enforce the agreement that companies have to be taxed equally. This agreement has a very good reason for existing - so countries can't give special tax breaks to companies based in that country while heavily taxing all foreign competition.
Ireland is part of this agreement. So they aren't allowed to give Apple a special deal.
Well this is fascinating. Looks like Slashdot has become a tool of the government. I'm glad I left and now I've confirmed my leaving. Bye bye, asses of the government!
That's why it is called 'getting high'.
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
It's true, Trump is in complete control here.
Apple was abiding with a special deal Ireland made with them but the deal was illegal according to EU regulations. What the EU did is basically tell Ireland "you cannot treat Apple favourably compared to other companies since it would be unfair to the companies not getting the special deal, so your special deal is null and void and your own regular taxation applies instead".
Unfortunately, this story is about much more than just Apple and/or Ireland.
The tax practices employed by Apple (and others, including Microsoft, Amazon, Facebook, Starbucks and others - and I don't mean to pick on US companies, but by and large they do appear to be the most flagrant abusers of this system) use tax "vehicles" such as the licensing of intellectual property rights to move exceptionally large amounts of cash from one country [tax jurisdiction] to another, thereby massively reducing their tax burden.
However, for the "donor" country - i.e. the one that is not collecting any tax revenues from the sales achieved by that company, the problem gets much, much worse. The literally billions in taxes not being paid to these countries still has to be collected from somewhere. And that is exactly what happens - the individual, personal tax payers of those nations end up footing the bill.
Next, it gets worse still...
The governments of countries with "higher" Corporation Tax regimes then get visits from senior management from these large multinationals, explaining that of course they would like to "do more business" [and thus pay more tax] in those nations. Except, of course, the tax levels are just, simply, too painfully high. So, regrettably, the company will move its regional offices next door, to a lower tax regime.
The net result of all this is that countries the world over appear to be in a "race to the bottom" because they are told that this is the only way to attract inward investment. This is simply not true.
If we take a country such as the UK, for example [currently embarking on an acrimonious but necessary divorce from the EU... and look at the tax-paying population and the amount of tax involved... the literally billions in revenue that is transferred off-shore to avoid the payment of UK Corporation tax would, if actually paid in the UK, cut taxes for UK citizens by a staggering amount. The basic rate of personal Income Tax could easily fall from the current 23% to 15% [still more than Corporation Tax in the UK - and never mind the fact that companies get to deduct their expenses first...]
A population granted this extra income would:-
1. Spend more - thus helping to keep the economy moving
2. Save more - thus helping to reduce the burden on the state for things like pensions
3. Invest more - thus helping UK business to grow and prosper
There are countless studies showing that a better standard of living leads to a healthier population. In fact, there are no good reasons for allowing companies to "dodge" paying taxes in the way that is currently allowed [unless, of course, you happen to be a senior manager or shareholder in that company, in which case you stand to reap obscene profits].
The fact that we're even having this discussion should tell you just how corrupt and perverted the system of international taxation has become. The sad part is, that 99% of us are losers in this game...
Since that's what the EU has ruled it's not really a mistake unless an appeal rules otherwise. Other businesses in Cork were paying the taxes just not Apple.
Not what happened. It was a simple as Apple bullying a local council into letting them avoid taxes or they would move and take all those jobs with them. I've got no idea why you are pretending otherwise, I thought Apple fanboys hated the Pepsi guy who replaced Steve Jobs. The tax evasion was implemented back then.
Thanks, I love it! Lately, I have been thinking about going on a prairie dog safari...
In this case the EU thinks it was illegal tax evasion hence the massive fine.
Unless an appeal changes it that's a perfectly valid label to put on Apple's actions
Unfortunately, this story is about much more than just Apple and/or Ireland. Hewan Menjijikan
If demanding taxes to be paid is "stealing", then what do you call it when somebody uses resources they aren't paying for? You know, if a person feels entitled to exploit the generosity of others and gives nothing back, we call him a parasite and suspect him of being a psychopath, so what kind of person is Apple? And if Ireland gives unreasonable tax benefits to certain, big corporations, does that not skew the market that is the very foundation of the EU (and which, incidentally, is the reason why Ireland wants to be a member)?
I have a good deal of respect for people who honestly believe in freedom and free market capitalism (even if I don't agree), but what you are talking about is just nonsense. The free market only stays free in any meaningful sense, if everybody genuinely agrees to follow the same rules, and that includes taxation and competition.
Actually, that's not correct. They're enforcing an agreement that all companies inside a jurisdiction have to be treated the same. If Ireland wanted 0% corporate tax, and applied that to everyone that would be inside the rules. What the Commission decided is that the deal Apple got was an unfair subsidy because no-one else used it. Ireland and Apple say that it was available to everyone, so it wasn't a subsidy and it wasn't unfair.
Rational thought is the only true freedom
Not what happened. It was a simple as Apple bullying a local council into letting them avoid taxes or they would move and take all those jobs with them.
You think that's what happened? Fuck, where do you get your news from? The Daily Moron?
Of course news about a fake are Fake News.
> try and steal money from Apple [...]
Are you from the RIAA or one of their ugly sisters? Because those are the only ones I know who use "stealing" as a generic term. You know, like for "undoing your shoelace", "eating ice cream", "have a dump during TV commercials" or even (gasp!) "copying some data".
Normal people use "stealing" in a very specific context, you know.
The EU doesn't want those taxes, they want Ireland to collect them according to their tax schedule in order to create a level playing field in the EU. What local business wouldn't love a 0.005% effective corporate tax rate? Most pay 20-25%
If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
Trump is in control everywhere. His all-seeing eyes and inquisitive orange tentacles miss nothing.
No, you're not here every day.
Ah I forgot - the BBC and all the rest other than Breitbart are "fake news" now.
Just ignore the chatter of the adults we don't matter.
and no apple cultist has suggested apple just buy Ireland or the EU. Come on guys, thats your goto for all apple issues. Well that and "profits!!!".
"Apple also points out that drawing comparisons to other tax arrangements in the EU with other multi-national companies is improper, as the facts and laws differ from agreement to agreement. As such, Apple argues that their use in a legal battle about taxes is inappropriate and unfairly prejudicial to Apple."
That's the point of doing business with the EU Apple, uniformity. If you don't like it then maybe you should have backed Britain in their Brexit vote and not spread FUD.
You accounting shenanigans are coming home to roost. Pay your taxes hippie.
The EU doesn't want those taxes, they want Ireland to collect them according to their tax schedule in order to create a level playing field in the EU. What local business wouldn't love a 0.005% effective corporate tax rate? Most pay 20-25%
The EU wants Ireland to stop being a money drain.
Brussels is simply forcing the Irish govt to do what they don't want to do, given that Ireland took the EU's money the EU has some entitlement to do this (which is why the EU cant dictate terms to the UK... well at least until we lose the ability to veto things after brexit).
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
And the argument from Apple (and Ireland) is that they are not being treated differently, that the EU hasn't provided a valid legal argument that they are, and is flat out wrong on matters both of law and fact.
Not paying all of your taxes.
So apple was the only company unethical enough to take advantage of this special rate? Other companies just said 'No thanks, tax us at a higher rate"? Or will Ireland be issuing refunds to all the other companies that now would like to take advantage of this rate that was so readily available to everyone?
At the time, there were no other companies. This goes all the way back to 1976 when Ireland had bugger all industry of any kind. To attract investment Ireland offered generous tax levels, generous tax rebates and write-offs, particularly in the area of R&D. Other companies use and have used similar programmes of course (Dell, for instance, took 10 years of generous tax rates and when the deal expired promptly moved all the manufacturing off to Poland or Hungary). It's just that Apple having been here longer, got a larger benefit.
This continues until today, and indeed is used by all countries (we currently incentivize R&D work at >100% tax write off so the more research you do here, the less tax you have to pay).
Rational thought is the only true freedom
Well, Apple is losing ground on China, I'm pretty sure they don't want to lose a market as big as Europe... just saying.
You apparently haven't been paying attention.
At the rate that Apple is "losing ground", your hypothetical grandchildren will still be buying Apple stock at over $100 a share.
That isn't even close to a parallel. Nice try though. Actually it wasn't even a nice try.
Ah I forgot - the BBC and all the rest other than Breitbart are "fake news" now. Just ignore the chatter of the adults we don't matter.
Oooh, an "adult". Well, that still wouldn't prove you are not a moron, even adults can be. Your posting proves you are a moron. Your reply proves you are also delusional. By, you moron, wo believes this whole tax thing is about "Apple bullying a local council into letting them avoid taxes".
Of course news about a fake are Fake News.
Apple acts like the "victim".. but their only reason to locating to Ireland was effectively tax evasion. About time someone dealt with this mega-corp tax evasion problem.
Its more like 100 Billion in debt.
Yes I know that (with long term factored in) but I was trying to present the worst possible number or my argument....
If you factor in your debt estimate to my original numbers, then the percentage the EU is asking for is more like 14%, not 7.5%, making the EU's request even more absurd and unreasonable...
I think you for the support but really like I said, I prefer to show that even the worst case is still too high a percentage, rather than showing a more accurate number that is more open to debate.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
And none of those 4000 people are involved in generating intellectual property
If you look on Apple's jobs website, there are technical jobs in Cork - including software engineering.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Apple was abiding with a special deal Ireland made with them but the deal was illegal according to EU regulations. What the EU did is basically tell Ireland "you cannot treat Apple favourably compared to other companies since it would be unfair to the companies not getting the special deal, so your special deal is null and void and your own regular taxation applies instead".
My distrust in others makes me want to think that Ireland (or factions in it anyway) knew or hoped this would happen all along figuring if they can lure Apple into bringing in all their money and then let the EU be the bad guy and make Apple give Ireland the money.
Facts. The natural enemy of apple fanbois everywhere.
Generally this category of post is called either completely false, or a baldfaced lie
So then what's it about, Plumperfuck?
or tell them they can GTFO of the EU market.
It's how it happened, a good description of the government of County Cork and is why the penalty is so huge.
So kid, tell me the "spun" version. The EU hates Apple's freedoms?
It's how it happened, a good description of the government of County Cork and is why the penalty is so huge. So kid, tell me the "spun" version. The EU hates Apple's freedoms?
Say, in you reality, are there Zeppelins in the sky?
Of course news about a fake are Fake News.
No answer, huh?
It would be hysterical to see apple get the shaft like that.
My distrust in others makes me want to think that Ireland (or factions in it anyway) knew or hoped this would happen all along figuring if they can lure Apple into bringing in all their money and then let the EU be the bad guy and make Apple give Ireland the money.
Common sense would lead me to believe that Apple knew exactly what risks it was taking, and had much, MUCH better legal advice than did Ireland.
Not following why. Obviously they didn't talk to the correct authorities. So they will get bit.
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
Yes a cool joke for your bros but utterly useless. How about we return to reality then since you are making a fuss about me apparently denying it?
So then - what really happened between John Sculley and County Cork? There's no point just telling me I'm wrong without any indication of why. Something more than "Apple can do no wrong" is required.
Gee, why doNn't you finally point to the BBC report on it? Or from any other non-fake news source but the Daily Moron? That should be interesting.
Of course news about a fake are Fake News.
So you've got nothing apart from "Zeppelins in the sky" to counter the news about that's in the summary FFS?
Pathetic.
Fanboy cheering of "Apple can do no wrong" with zero content.
The Irish Tax authority isn't the right authority on what taxes are owed in Ireland? What crack are you on, and where can I get some?
APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
If they were, then the EU wouldn't be able to cite specific laws that were in place at the time and not followed. If you go to a store and the man behind the counter tells you it's ok to pay $0.05 for a drink and a chocolate bar, do you believe the person behind the counter or do you ask more questions?
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
What? You're filing a joint return so you don't have to pay as much taxes? YOU TAX DODGER! Apple took advantage of a legal loophole they didn't make the loophole: Ireland did. Now the EU says it's illegal that's not Apple's bad.