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The City of Munich Might Stick With Linux (fsfe.org)

Posted by EditorDavid on from the waffling-on-Windows? dept.

Munich's "LiMux" project brought FOSS software to their city's IT administration -- until a vote last month on whether to abandon Linux and return to Windows. "Since this decision was reached, the majority of media have reported that a final call was made to halt LiMux and switch back to Microsoft software," reports the Free Software Foundation Europe. "This is, however, not an accurate representation of the outcome of the city council meeting." An anonymous reader quotes their report: The opposing parties were overruled, but the decision was amended such that the strategy document must specify which LiMux-applications will no longer be needed, the extent in which prior investments must be written off, and a rough calculation of the overall costs of the desired unification... [Only then will the city council make their final decision...] We succeeded thus far in forcing the mayor Dieter Reiter to postpone the final decision, and this was possible through the unwavering pressure created by joint efforts between The Document Foundation, KDE, OSBA, and the FSFE together with all the individuals who wrote to city council members and took the issue to the media.

Although the mandate is highly suggestive in that it suggests that the existing vendor-neutral approach is to be replaced with a proprietary solution, it leaves the door open... The new mandate buys us some time. And we will keep going.
Some politicians said they'd never received this much input from the public before, and the Free Software Foundation Europe says the city's issues were caused "from organizational problems, including lack of clear structures and responsibilities," which should not be attributed to the Linux operating system. "LiMux as such is still one of the best examples of how to create a vendor-neutral administration based on Free Software."

117 comments

  1. Highly suggestive in that it suggests by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A suggestion

    1. Re: Highly suggestive in that it suggests by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1

      Anyone that uses Linux in a business other than for a play thing is a clueless twat, the people that claim it's better than windows are clueless...

    2. Re: Highly suggestive in that it suggests by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Linux is better than Windows in business because businesses are always allowed to change and improve how it works for themselves. There is no waiting for permission of the software owners when you have the source code right there for the changing.

    3. Re: Highly suggestive in that it suggests by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Linux is better than Windows in business because businesses are always allowed to change and improve how it works for themselves. There is no waiting for permission of the software owners when you have the source code right there for the changing.

      Assuming of course that you have anyone who can DO anything with the source-code. Software development isn't something good to do on a production system in a large city that's trying to run, so it's all well and good to have access to the source code, but if you don't have the people with the know-how to review it, figure out how to do whatever it is you WANT it to do that you know for a fact it doesn't already do, (because what a waste it would be if the software already had a feature and you just didn't realize it?) spend the time and effort writing the code to do it, then debugging it, then testing it in basically every situation that it's likely to see to ensure it won't BREAK something, compromise security, or decrease efficiency more than it adds to it, and of course this all assumes it's worth the time and trouble in the first place, which you might not be able to estimate unless again, you have someone who knows how to do all that.

      A city government has the responsibility to the people who pay for it, and who reside therein, to provide certain services, and those are provided most efficiently with the use of computers and/or automation. They can't just screw around and hope for the best, and they can't safely rely on the kindness, integrity, honesty, and tenacity, and competence of random strangers located... somewhere, accountable to no-one for what they do coding, to ensure that everything WORKS.

      Now, I am not bashing F/LOSS, GNU/Linux, or anything else, but if Munich doesn't HAVE the ability to maintain and administer the software, they should hire someone who can, either to work for them, or farm out to a company that specializes in that upon whom they MAY safely rely. Not a shill, but the only companies I can recall by name off the top of my head that offer such services, are Red Hat Software and VA Linux, and I'm not even sure if they're both still around.

      Now of course, Windows with it's near-daily revelation of critical safety, usability and stability flaws, the myriad compatibility problems, and so much more, especially the security-holes that seem almost as if deliberately inserted to force registration of their wretched "operating system," which in turn forces anyone who wants to run their software on a not completely and perfectly air-gapped system, to have a registrable, bought-and-paid-for copy of their software, or to submit for psychological examination by a licensed mental-health professional, because they REALLY need it. So... no love of Microsoft here.

      I personally run a flavor of BSD on my home computer, maintained by people I pay handsomely every time I buy something from that benighted, steadily declining fruit-belogoed company, that I still call, "oh ess ex," without regard to whatever the company is calling it this week. I do this mainly because I'm invested, and they had the very best hardware for what I needed at the time I bought it, plus it's pretty.

      My next computer, however, I will probably run the LinuxMint distro of the GNU/Linux OS. I'm glad Munich is saving its citizens from the threat posed by using Microsoft's buggy, flawed, slow, expensive, crappy excuse for an operating system. Most of the software I want or need to run is broadly cross-platform, or at least is available for 'Linux'... namely, things like LibreOffice, Clementine, Firefox, Audacity, and the like.

      As for other things, I'll just have to find a way to live without them because when this Mac dies, I'm not shelling out that much money to Apple ever again. I go back to a desktop after this.

  2. I bet they're disappointed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    That Microsoft's current CEO hasn't jumped on a plane and stepped out smiling, offering a huge discount on the usual terms.

    Ballmer is sitting in SoCal thinking "that's his (Satya's) problem now."

    1. Re:I bet they're disappointed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Satya Nutella is only for dealing with H1Bs...

    2. Re:I bet they're disappointed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Nah,
        MS has to be paid back for moving its German HQ to Munich.
      The payback is Windows 10 everywhere or else.

      It ain't rocket science you know.
      MS wants control of everything. Then it will make another move like the one Munich did impossibe.
      As everythingwill be moved on the QT into the MS Cloud guess who will have to pay and keep paying for the pleasure of accessing all their files and documents from then on?
      The Tax payers of Munich and everywgere else that's who.

      This is the MS Long game in action.

    3. Re:I bet they're disappointed by Sique · · Score: 1

      Microsoft's German HQ moved to Munich even before the LiMux client was ever christened.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    4. Re:I bet they're disappointed by ilguido · · Score: 2

      Nope. Microsoft began to build a new HQ in Munich in 2013 and it was completed in 2016. The old HQ was in Unterschleißheim, which is a small town near to Munich, under a different city council.

  3. Good by ls671 · · Score: 1

    Good for them!

    Use the would be MS license money to train people. In the long run, it is a win-win.

    --
    Everything I write is lies, read between the lines.
    1. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I mentioned this in the last thread about this. I would bet they have 0 intention of moving away from it. They were just squeezing their provider. Companies and govs do this sort of thing all the time. Its called negotiating.

    2. Re: Good by andrewa · · Score: 1

      Or a Linux-Linux?

      --
      :(){ :|:& };:
    3. Re:Good by ls671 · · Score: 1

      Cool! Mine called negotiating too!

      --
      Everything I write is lies, read between the lines.
    4. Re: Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good one ;-)

  4. City of Munix by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They should make their city a virtual repository for flesh talent and go all out. City of Munix.

  5. Global Politics by phantomfive · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's somewhat disturbing to me that they received pressure from so many groups around the world, who are really just hoping to promote OSS, not help the city of Munich run better.

    On the other hand, they have a lobbyist from Microsoft who definitely isn't trying to help the city of Munich run better, so I guess it's fair. Must be overwhelming to be an administrator in Munich, though.

    --
    "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    1. Re:Global Politics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The problem is NEITHER OSS or Microsoft are trying to help Munich run better, both are pushing their own agenda. For MS I kinda understand that as they are a business, but the OSS community should be ashamed, They should be spending their efforts fixing the bucket of shit that Munich ended up with and if they did that then the City would not be contemplating the switch back.

    2. Re: Global Politics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      I presume you mean "they should do this for free". Why would they do this? Open source is about being open not about being cheap.

    3. Re:Global Politics by phantomfive · · Score: 4, Interesting

      if they did that then the City would not be contemplating the switch back.

      Unless....the reason for switching is because Microsoft bribed them in some way.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    4. Re: Global Politics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      If a company invests huge resources in lobbying its considered part of the game. Then why shouldn't the FOSS community be able to do the same?

      I find it that people expect open software to be always cheaper than proprietary products. That's not necessarily the case and it should not be an argument when lobbying for FOSS. There are plenty of good reasons to switch to open source - being "cheap" isn't one.

    5. Re: Global Politics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nobody in the real world cares about openness but everybody cares about costs. Only autistic nerds cannot see this.

    6. Re:Global Politics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > They should be spending their efforts fixing the bucket of shit that Munich ended up with

      [citation needed]

      Look, every complex IT system has its problems, which are an incredible mix of technical, social, legacy and lots of other problems. Blaming things on the technical platform is easy, but extremely shortsighted.

      It's not as if a Microsoft (or ORACLE, or SAP) platform were problem-free either.

      Bigcorps (I know, I work at one) are constantly "switching back" whenever some high-up wants to leave his/her mark (and has been wined & dined correspondingly).

      Seen from that perspective, some free software based "solution" has at least the advantage of not having the hordes of paid lobbyists especially trained at "educating" decision makers (can you spell "Wormtongue"?)

    7. Re:Global Politics by ruir · · Score: 0

      If people did not care about football, soap operas and reality shows they would remember there are two political parties in scene. One pushes for Linux, and the other is on Microsofts pocket.
      Guess which one is in power now.

    8. Re: Global Politics by MightyMartian · · Score: 0

      You mean like anonymous AC trolls?

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    9. Re:Global Politics by Kjella · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Unless....the reason for switching is because Microsoft bribed them in some way.

      At the core is probably some TCO studies and they're not exactly indisputable facts. The licensing is just one tiny bit of it, then you try to estimate the productivity, maintenance and administration, difficulty of getting software and staff to operate it, training costs of users and so on. There's a lot of room for bias, particularly when it comes to omitting costs you would have with a different solution but won't be apparent until you get there. Also known as "the grass is greener on the other side", when you jump the fence you'll find the other side has its own set of disadvantages.

      I'm sure Microsoft has made the pitch that Munich is actually losing money on their Linux adventure. And if you're not good at cutting through corporate BS and flawed assumptions - which most people aren't - it's not surprising that some policy makers believe them. Not to mention it probably involves a low-ball offer from Microsoft, which might actually be profitable in the short term until you're hooked on regular upgrade costs, software maintenance and so on in the future. But politicians often do things that look good in this election cycle. You don't have to imagine cloak-and-dagger operations.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    10. Re:Global Politics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The lack of lobbyists, sales people and marketing budgets is exactly why OSS doesn't have comparable market shares to commercial solutions. It is absolutely OK - required even - to go out and tell people about how good your tech is while you're working on it and fixing it. We techies traditionally have a hard time understanding that.

    11. Re:Global Politics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      from the previous post about this (https://yro.slashdot.org/story/17/02/11/1930217/the-city-of-munich-now-wants-to-abandon-linux-and-switch-back-to-windows?sdsrc=rel): "The leader of the Munich Green Party says the city will lose "many millions of euros" if the change is implemented. The article also reports that Microsoft moved its German headquarters to Munich last year."

    12. Re: Global Politics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Unless you are a government and want to be sure your systems are not working for another government behind your back. While you can't possibly audit all OSS source code in-house, you could audit the most critical parts of it and you can still rely on the community for the rest of the work. Which, with closed software is not possible - you have to trust a company and in the case of Microsoft, it is a US company. An analogy would be for the US government to trust a Chinese phone running custom closed Chinese software for critical government communications. I bet you think it would be a bad idea.

      Also, your statement "nobody cares about open source" is a bit far fetched, considering the huge amount of contributions to FOSS projects. Mind you most of those people do care about openness.

    13. Re: Global Politics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I for one don't want FOSS to be tailored so it can be easily used by the next computer illiterate. I like open source software because it's flexible, you can tweak it to your needs and this is precisely the reason it is not suitable to everyone. You have to either lock it so that the user doesn't have access to critical components or expect users to do bad things that will break their systems and will ultimately abandon the software. Android has gone for the first and it is dominating the smartphone market. It is still a Linux, theoretically.

      I like FOSS as it is - powerful tools meant for people that want to do powerful stuff with their computers. It is not for your grand mother searching cooking recipes over the internet.

    14. Re:Global Politics by execthis · · Score: 4, Insightful

      One thing that bothers me about the press coverage of this is that there's no discussion about why there was a call to stop using LiMux. I would like to know why - was it certain apps that underperformed? Certain features that didn't exist? What? Discussing this without describing actual details is worse than meaningless. People can suggest all kinds of things, but until anyone actually knows what the issues were, it's a moot point.

    15. Re:Global Politics by orin · · Score: 1

      Other than it being a "flagship Linux project" - the cost benefits to Microsoft of the sort of licensing used by Munich's city council aren't substantial enough that they'd make any extraordinary effort to change what was going on. The project never turned into the sort of unmitigated success that drove other municipalities to adopt Linux. "New Microsoft" even includes a version of Ubuntu on Windows 10, so probably at this stage didn't give much of a shit about what's going on in Munich. On the other hand, the reason that there is so much activity on this from the FOSS side is that it is a "flagship Linux project" and conceding defeat would make it more difficult to argue that Linux is a viable municipal desktop alternative even though, at this point, the lack of awesome success sort of suggests that conclusion anyway.

    16. Re:Global Politics by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Unless....the reason for switching is because Microsoft bribed them in some way.

      People are very quick to use the word bribe when in reality in many business deals it's just a case of a negotiable contract. If Microsoft were to give a huge discount on the software, that's not a bribe but it may dramatically sway the decision given that the basis from switching away from a package that the entire rest of the world uses is typically cost.

    17. Re:Global Politics by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 2

      Indeed it is!
      I mean if local groups hat tried to 'enlighten' the city council, but the FSFE?
      If M$ had be caught doing that we had an uproar ....

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    18. Re: Global Politics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't care to spare the time to sign up for an account on a site where people simply mod you down and stop you from expressing your opinion because they don't like it and cannot handle reality. I don't care about slashdot, just as the Real World does not care about you.

    19. Re:Global Politics by Sique · · Score: 1
      The City of Munich moved to LiMux when the SPD was in power, and now the move to Microsoft happens when the SPD is in power.

      Yes, definitely two different parties here at work.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    20. Re:Global Politics by Sique · · Score: 1

      The German HQ of Microsoft was in Munich since I remember. At least in the 1990ies, it was in Munich already.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    21. Re:Global Politics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      if they did that then the City would not be contemplating the switch back.

      Unless....the reason for switching is because Microsoft bribed them in some way.

      Never attribute to malice what can be perfectly explained by stupidity. We have more advertising companies than organized crime syndicates (not counting governments) exactly because stupidity is more reliable.

      I basically grew up on LaTeX and Unix (before Linux even became a thing) and decided early that word processors and Windows did not really match my preferred manners of operation. As is wont with people versed in computery things, I ended up getting consulted about computer problems of relatives nevertheless and thus had some late contact with Windows/Word/etc after all. Now this was a system developed for decades with word processors with an even longer history and established as market leader for a long time. My assumption basically was that it was a mature consistent system readily accessible to people used to computers and logical thinking.

      I really was not prepared, after all this time, what an instable incoherent bogged-down heap of disorganized rubbish the market-leading product turned out to be. Obviously Microsoft could not have bribed its entire customer base, so they just have been better at marketing/advertising, and I did the mistake of projecting my own experiences in the direction of their advertising to arrive at my expectations.

      With GNU/Linux (when it arrived in my life) I had no expectations dissociated from fact to work with, so I did not start out with similarly misguided expectations.

      Now if even I got trapped by the "it can't be as bad as that if everybody is using it" fallacy, how much worse would that be for some politician without an actual clue?

    22. Re: Global Politics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And you would probably call this a "productive discussion".

      I didn't say everybody should care about openness, I just said the concept of FOSS was about being open versus being inexpensive.

      You could make the same assumption about anything - most people don't care about anything but their bellys' - that doesn't mean that "those things people don't care about" are not important. Brave new world ...

    23. Re:Global Politics by loonycyborg · · Score: 1

      The article answers this question. Newly elected major is pro-microsoft ideologically.

    24. Re:Global Politics by Junta · · Score: 1

      The ubuntu on Windows is a gimped 'linux' that is strictly so that a Windows desktop can be used for Linux VM work on Azure. So no unix domain sockets, no sane integration with desktop for graphics, not really the best filesystem performance, no integration of the native authentication/permission structure... Being binary compatible with Linux is one of the least needed aspects of linux, and it's pretty much the only facet they focused on.

      --
      XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
    25. Re: Global Politics by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 0

      That is nonsense. A properly set up Linux system is perfect for Grandma. She clicks on the Firefox icon and it's exactly like on Windows, minus the Windows headaches!!! My mother has been on Linux for a decade and she is by no means computer literate (but has been a grandmother longer then that by another decade.) I wish I had a dollar for every time she told me how glad she is the she doesn't have to deal with "that awful Windows".

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    26. Re:Global Politics by Junta · · Score: 2

      Actually, it's not just about that. A good example is active directory.

      On the open source side, if you can set up a decent directory service at all, you are pretty well equipped to handle very complex deployments as well as simple ones. You appreciate the power, transparency, and relative straightforwardness in dealing with complex needs. However, getting even a simple configuration going can be daunting to a newcomer. The newcomer experience is most often ignored in open source projects, since the target audience tends to be in the same ballpark as people able to write the software (at least in the best open source projects).

      On the active directory side, it is dead simple to set up a simple configuration. So people getting started have an easier time. Now as your needs advance in complexity, you enter a hellish world of awkwardness in active directory and you'd be better off with the open source stack, but you started with AD and you are stuck with AD.

      Commercial software tends to be easier to get started with and also working in common evaluation contexts. Open source tends to fare better when complexity increases and people are able to self-support and mold the overall project in an agreeable way.

      --
      XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
    27. Re:Global Politics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Loonycyborg, why are people who are in charge so stupid?

    28. Re: Global Politics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Nobody in the real world cares about ownership, but everybody cares about costs. Only Libertarian sophomores insist on this.

      Fixed That For You.

    29. Re:Global Politics by Barsteward · · Score: 1

      Perhaps you need to read more about the situation before jumping and saying "the bucket of shit that Munich ended up with".

      --
      "The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
    30. Re:Global Politics by Barsteward · · Score: 2

      From the report
      "In 2014, Dieter Reiter was elected new mayor of Munich. He had referred to himself as "Microsoft fan" even before he took office. He prides himself with having played a major part in the decision to move the Microsoft Germany headquarters to downtown Munich. He started to question the LiMux strategy as soon as his term started, and asked Accenture, a Microsoft partner in the same building as Microsoft, to analyse Munich's IT infrastructure. The report can be found here (German). It's noteworthy that in their report, the analysts identify primarily organisational issues at the root of the problems troubling LiMux uptake, rather than technical challenges."

      --
      "The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
    31. Re:Global Politics by Barsteward · · Score: 1

      In 2014, Dieter Reiter was elected new mayor of Munich. He had referred to himself as "Microsoft fan" even before he took office. He prides himself with having played a major part in the decision to move the Microsoft Germany headquarters to downtown Munich. - from the report

      --
      "The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
    32. Re:Global Politics by ruir · · Score: 1

      As far as I know it was the Greens that pushed the Linux agenda, and SPD was pushing the Windows agenda.

    33. Re: Global Politics by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      Perhaps the problem is how you express your opinion. To be frank you come off as a bit of a jerk, which I suspect you know very well. That is why you post AC, to try to minimize the consequences of acting like a fucking asshole.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    34. Re:Global Politics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Munich Major has always been pro Windows and he became all the more vocal the moment Microsoft published plans to create a few thousand jobs in the area.

    35. Re:Global Politics by Sique · · Score: 1

      Christian Ude (SPD) was mayor of Munich between 1993 and 2014, and now it's Dieter Reiter (SPD). There hasn't been any non-SPD mayor of Munich since the late 1940ies, now for nearly 70 years. And the Greens have never had more seats in the Munich city council than since 2014, while the SPD never had less seats than now since 1952.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    36. Re: Global Politics by Barsteward · · Score: 1

      costs are saved by not being beholden to any suppliers.

      --
      "The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
    37. Re:Global Politics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      {The OSS community] should be spending their efforts fixing the bucket of shit that Munich ended up with and if they did that then the City would not be contemplating the switch back.

      Which part of the city's issues were caused "from organizational problems, including lack of clear structures and responsibilities," could exactly be fixed by the OSS community? The same problems would probably also exist in a MS based environment.

    38. Re:Global Politics by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Oh, that's a good quote, it explains a lot. Thanks.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    39. Re:Global Politics by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      That's true, the word is hyperbolic, I would assume, in the case of Germany.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    40. Re:Global Politics by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Kind of reminds me of AWS. Great system, easy to use, but wow the learning curve is steep and the documentation not particularly helpful in climbing it.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    41. Re:Global Politics by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      would like to know why

      I don't. Changing a system is no reason to not continuously question running a new system. A switch from Windows to Linux is not an end-game but a business decision. That decision may be relevant at a certain period in time. If in the past a company looks at changing their desktop OS every 3 years (for example) I would expect them to continue to look at changing every 3 years even after the change.

      As to why one may win over the other, well a lot of personal preference from people quite high up can have that effect. I'm not looking forward to our CIO leaving as his second in command is pro-Apple and I think that may cause a shift towards iPhones as the company phone next time the current approach is reviewed (yearly at present).

    42. Re: Global Politics by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 2

      Not so fast there, pardner. You said,

      That is nonsense. A properly set up Linux system is perfect for Grandma. She clicks on the Firefox icon and it's exactly like on Windows, minus the Windows headaches!!!

      But the parent said,

      You have to either lock it so that the user doesn't have access to critical components or expect users to do bad things that will break their systems and will ultimately abandon the software.

      So in reality you are providing evidence that supports just what the AC said, yet you are claiming it demonstrates the opposite.

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
    43. Re:Global Politics by westlake · · Score: 1

      Unless....the reason for switching is because Microsoft bribed them in some way.

      The geek's all-purpose explanation for any legal or political decision he doesn't like is bribery.

    44. Re: Global Politics by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 0

      That is incorrect. The is not "locked down" other than normal Linux DAC. She simply has a standard user account.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    45. Re:Global Politics by a_n_d_e_r_s · · Score: 1

      FSFE is based in Germany. So in that sense it's a local group.

      --
      Just saying it like it are.
    46. Re: Global Politics by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 1

      the user doesn't have access to critical components

      She clicks on the Firefox icon and it's exactly like on Windows

      I rest my case.

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
    47. Re:Global Politics by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Oh, I mixed them up with fsf.org, lol.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    48. Re: Global Politics by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 0

      You rest your case because Firefox looks the same on both platforms? Then you lose I'm afraid.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    49. Re: Global Politics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is the same as far as the user is concerned. And for most functionality it is.

      I switched my mother to Linux a couple of years ago when she was complaining about her Vista laptop being to slow. As all she uses her laptop is for email and the occasional web site, I just loaded Linux on it, set it to auto-login like Windows, set up the printer and put the Firefox and Thunderbird icons on her desktop.

      The only question she had was about the background being different. She has had no problems since, which is an improvement over Windows.

  6. Trolls... Crickets... by Tough+Love · · Score: 2

    Interesting how the MSFT trolls didn't show up to this article as they usually do. Microsoft... same old same old. Paid out all that payola and what... sheesh. Buncha pesky citizens got in the way.

    --
    When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    1. Re:Trolls... Crickets... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

      "Buncha pesky citizens "
      You cannot have a "Buncha", or even a significant number of citizens making any real world decisions. As the group numbers go up the group IQ level goes down. And this applies not only to shilling your brand of software but pretty much any other topics. Hell the IQ of the entire planet has decreased as fast as internet adoption has increased. The current generation will be famous for building smart phones instead of building smart people. The generation who post their life stories, pictures and video's included, on various Internet social media websites and then shriek about losing privacy. The generation where the longest train of thought is limited to 140 characters. The generation who live outrage to outrage in the hopes of snapping a selfie of their valiant protest gatherings.

    2. Re:Trolls... Crickets... by ArchieBunker · · Score: 1

      You really think anyone bothers to pay shills for this site anymore?

      --
      Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
    3. Re:Trolls... Crickets... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      From what I have seen shills aren't hanging out on a single page.
      If you have written a shill-post there is no reason to not post the same shit to a whole bunch of forums, after all you've already put in the work to write the post.
      A shill working 8 hours a day can easily keep a presence on over a hundred pages if he puts his mind into it. Just write a post and spend the rest of the day posting it everywhere.
      Scale it down a bit and you can start replying to posts too. You probably get answers that are very similar to your original post, so you can probably re-use the answer with very little modification.
      I've seen shills on pages much smaller than slashdot. I don't see why someone wouldn't take a minute out of their day and shill here too.

    4. Re:Trolls... Crickets... by thegarbz · · Score: 0

      You really think anyone ever did? Remember the Slashdot dictionary definition of shill = "someone with a different opinion to me"

    5. Re:Trolls... Crickets... by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Interesting how the MSFT trolls didn't show up to this article as they usually do

      Maybe it's time you get your prescription checked.

    6. Re:Trolls... Crickets... by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      Must be shills all the way down.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    7. Re:Trolls... Crickets... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      " The generation who post their life stories, pictures and video's included"

      So... Speaking of dropping IQs, can you explain the rule you use to pluralize video with an apostrophe, but not stories or pictures?

  7. TITle: How to Get a Better Deal! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Play on love!

    1. Re:TITle: How to Get a Better Deal! by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 1

      Play on love!

      Many plays are on love. It's a popular subject.

      --
      I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
  8. yuo FaOil it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1

    resulted in the [ANTI-SLASH.ORg] ofone single puny you can. No, else to be an at least.' Nobody sure that I've impolementation to [samag.com] in the

  9. 8XQ69-IZO57-DMIN1-8MIB7-3C871-0EJJ0 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    this means what?

    8XQ69-IZO57-DMIN1-8MIB7-3C871-0EJJ0

  10. TRROLKORE by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1

    Rival distribu7ion,

  11. Germans and Open Source by future+assassin · · Score: 1

    The open source movement is quite strong in Germeny. I got this from playing Xonotic which has a strong EU/German presence. Much more open to OSS than North Americans.

    --
    by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
    1. Re: Germans and Open Source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It is somewhat logical - most software is US produced. If you are a government you want software free from foreign interference or at least something you can check (if you choose to do so). You either rely on closed software and you have to trust the producer (which is US based) or you have the choice to trust the much larger community and even have the ability to do partial checks on the source, in the case of FOSS. For Germany it is probably not such an issue, but what about countries that don't necessarily share the same strategic interests with the US ? If you are Chinese, would you trust Microsoft ? Would you trust them if tomorrow you have a military conflict ?

      This is irrelevant in the US though.

    2. Re:Germans and Open Source by Neuronwelder · · Score: 1

      You mean the have sane people in Germany too!!

  12. New headquarters of Microsoft in Germany... by mattMad · · Score: 3, Informative

    Guess where Microsoft just opened their new German headquarters? Right: In Munich... (To be fair: They had their headquarters nearby Munich already before - but now they lured them right into the city)

    1. Re:New headquarters of Microsoft in Germany... by Barsteward · · Score: 1

      and they were encouraged and helped by the new mayor who is MS fan

      --
      "The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
  13. "I'll stick with Linux." by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Headline is cliched snobbery espoused by elitist penguin fuckers. Get over yourselves already. Linux is old.

    1. Re: "I'll stick with Linux." by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And yet, there isn't a decent replacement for it.

    2. Re: "I'll stick with Linux." by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Have I mentioned today that I don't own a TV?

  14. political blabbering... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The City does not really contemplate staying on linux on the desktop. they will change to Microsoft, because it is clear for the employees that the council members want microsoft now, the internal it is already setting sails for propretiary products. This is just some marketing blabbering from the politicans and the lobbying groups overrate their pressure power... there is even an internal letter where the mayor does not talk about an assessment but about a change to microsoft, since in his experience linux was always not quite good enough.

  15. Windows is easier for the average person to use by chewie2010 · · Score: 1

    We have all worked with people who shout at you for not using Linux. No one every address the fact that it is cumbersome to use. When there is a linux distro that is user friendly then it will be used more. Geeks are enamoured with all the reasons everyone "should" use open source os's but never address the consumers using the product.

    1. Re:Windows is easier for the average person to use by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Huh. Lots of average persons are dumping their "obsolete" hardware on the market because Windows 10 no longer likes it. I just stocked up on several professional-grade audio products (like a Mackie Onyx 1620 with Firewire card, and some audio interfaces) for peanuts that are close to unsellable these days because of a lack of driver support for newer Windows/MacOSX versions.

      Their Linux support came round 1 or 2 years after their launch on Windows. But it's likely to stick around for decades after Windows gives up on the devices. And frankly: who wants to use a system in professional audio that has its own ideas about when to install upgrades and reboot without user intervention?

    2. Re:Windows is easier for the average person to use by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That reminds me of a man in his late 50s I know who describes himself as a computer illiterate, who once asked me if I knew where to get Ubuntu. He had decided not to replace an old pc that ran XP when that stopped being supported and someone had mentioned Ubuntu als an alternative OS for older computers. I told him where he could download DVD images but he had no idea how to burn them to a DVD. So I downloaded it for him, burned the DVD and mailed it to him. To my surprise all the help he needed after that were answers to two minor questions over the phone. He installed Ubuntu, got his printer and e-mail account working without any help, and has been a happy Linux user for a few years now.

      This man certainly doesn't qualify as a geek but he has no trouble using Ubuntu. I don't particularly like Ubuntu's standard desktop, but I think that they must be doing something right if a pretty close to average person can get started like that.

    3. Re:Windows is easier for the average person to use by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What a worthless comment.

      You're confusing familiarity with usability. Just because you are familiar with Windows and know how, or are so used to working around all the retarded shit that is in Windows, doesn't mean it's "easier to use" or that Linux is "cumbersome". If you weren't such a well broken Windows user, you'd have *at least* the same amount of problems with it as with Linux, albeit perhaps different ones.

    4. Re:Windows is easier for the average person to use by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We have all worked with people who shout at you for not using Linux. No one every address the fact that it is cumbersome to use. When there is a linux distro that is user friendly then it will be used more. Geeks are enamoured with all the reasons everyone "should" use open source os's but never address the consumers using the product.

      Here, I fixed it for you:

      We have all worked with people who shout at you for not using Linux. No one every address the fact that I am stuck in my ways and do not like change. When there is a linux distro that is exactly like windows then it will be used more. Geeks are enamoured with all the reasons everyone "should" use open source os's but never address the consumers using the product.

      The reality is that using Linux nowdays is even easier than Windows - it is easier because of package repositories and the fact that all the software is just a click away. The only problem I always see is that people are stuck in their ways and hate the change.

      For example, I have talked to a guy that switched from Windows 7 to Linux after the Windows 10 spying debacle. However, he spent weeks of futzing around with themes and icons until he made Linux look just like Windows 7, down to every pixel. Because "he liked the way Windows 7 looks".

      The truth is, for the majority of people, Linux is just fine as a desktop OS because they mostly just check their email and surf the Internet. This is the reason why Chromebooks are gaining market share.

    5. Re:Windows is easier for the average person to use by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bullshit. Many Linux distros such as Mint are rock solid, stable, configurable, and have easy as hell GUIs available,such as Mate.

      Microsoft's OSs are barely configurable, and buggy as hell. Never mind hiding things in Ribbons, Charms and the like.

    6. Re:Windows is easier for the average person to use by espenskaufel · · Score: 1

      I agree with you. Most of the answers I see under here are from the same people you address in your post. Most people do not care about the operating system, and they never will, and they should be free not to care. They do not want configurability, package repositories, terminal windows and a GUI that changes fundamentally every few years (that is why Windows 8 was a disaster). They just want to do what they are required to and then go and live their normal lives.

    7. Re:Windows is easier for the average person to use by b783719 · · Score: 1

      Just to let you know they previously
      "replace their no longer supported Windows NT4 workstations"

      It's so old that any new OS like Windows 10, Linux or MacOS would have been just as hard without relearning.

    8. Re:Windows is easier for the average person to use by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Linux in a professional audio environment? ROTFL. Yeah, have fun with that.

      And before you even being to try and lecture me -- I was involved in LAD, so don't even.

      You Linux retards really are completely and totally disconnected from reality.

    9. Re:Windows is easier for the average person to use by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nobody gives a shit if they can configure their OS.

      Nobody gives a fuck. Not at all. Like NOBODY cares. NOBODY just sits around configuring their "desktop". Nobody.

      Well, except Linux people that have nothing better to do with their time.

  16. Many users want Windows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The problem stems from within and outside the systems of Munich. When you work in government or in a major corporation your computer systems must be acceptable with your users, the outside world and compatible with those systems which more times than not are Microsoft Windows systems. Any OS is a learning curve especially Linux given that most Munich employee's probably use Windows at home are obviously facing a different animal with Linux at work. Saving money only works if your productivity, workers, and those you communicate with don't have issues with it.

    1. Re:Many users want Windows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Another clueless commentard. When you work in government or in a major corporation other people and their systems adapt to you. NOT the other way around. If I'm the government and you submit documents I can't handle, or you can't handle the free and open documents I provide you, that's your problem, not mine.

  17. Linux Munich by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Amidst all the horrible things going on in the world, there is some hope that reason may prevail in Munich.
    Thanks to all there who work for freedom. We all need you!

  18. How strange!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I always used to thing that people in Germany were intelligent, up until now. They are in for the ride of their lives!

  19. So let's dig deeper.... by HalAtWork · · Score: 1

    So why are they pro-MS ideologically? Any specific reason that manifests in the LiMux stack currently?

    --
    Twinstiq, game news
    1. Re:So let's dig deeper.... by loonycyborg · · Score: 1

      Only reason is the desire to conform.

    2. Re:So let's dig deeper.... by Barsteward · · Score: 1

      too old to want to learn anything new?

      --
      "The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
    3. Re: So let's dig deeper.... by dunkelfalke · · Score: 2

      Why do you assume that just because you personally prefer linux, everyone else either does as well or is unwilling to learn? I personally develop for linux at work, but use windows at home mpst of the time even though i obviously know my way around linux. I simply prefer windows workflows, windows ui and windows font rendering.

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    4. Re:So let's dig deeper.... by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      Close source proprietary software has the money and the off shore tax haven bank accounts to pay bribes and Free Open Source Software does not. That is one example and of course we know how much is buried by closed sourced proprietary software companies in tax havens, hundreds of billions of dollars. Would they pay bribes which can quite readily be cashed in as luxury overseas holidays, hmm, let me think about it, yes. They would also pay bribes to gain things we could never hope for tax holidays to bring the money back into the economy, basically legalised tax evasion (not all of it comes back, some of it shift from one account to another, considering they are cheating on billions how big a bribe do you think they would be willing to pay). So why the push, marketing, how honest was the decision, likely not honest at all.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    5. Re: So let's dig deeper.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Why do you assume that just because you personally prefer linux, everyone else either does as well or is unwilling to learn?

      Hazing.

      Ok, I know that is not a fully informative answer unless you already knew it was the answer, so I'll explain.

      Studies have shown that mild hazing results in a stronger emotional investment in the haze-locked subject matter. One such experiment was done with two groups attending a really boring seminar on avian reproduction. The group that was mildly hazed by being told that it would be an explicit discussion and forced to sign waivers that they were warned about the potential use of crude vocabulary (with examples all the way) reported that it was a more interesting and informative seminar than those who just walked in and got a seat.

      Linux has a long history of abusive advice. I know someone who has determined that the only way to actually get advice from a Linux forum is instead of asking a question, to accuse Linux of being incapable of accomplishing something. Within 3 posts there will be four ways to accomplish the desired results (2 for apt-get based packaging, 2 for without). If, instead, you make a new account and ask for advice on solving something, it reliably results in many statements of "RTFM noob!" and if someone is foolish enough to provide a useful answer, the rest of the thread will be attacking that person.

    6. Re:So let's dig deeper.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So why are they pro-MS ideologically? Any specific reason that manifests in the LiMux stack currently?

      Exaclty my point, is it better? cheaper yes, i guess, but in a place where you need to manage tons of end-user computers can you manage Linux base machine like Microsoft or do you have an exploding it staff budget because now everything needs to be done manually because of the lack of centralized management?

  20. Universities by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Computer Science education at many German universities is heavily based on open source software. You can easily get through a master's degree without ever touching proprietary software. The only exception I can think of was one mandatory FPGA course.
    Systems programming: Linux with GCC and nasm.
    Software design & OOP: Java
    Functional programming: Racket.
    Graphics programming: OpenGL ... and so on.
    Thus graduates leave the universities with FOSS experience. It may be different at technical colleges.

  21. I guess this already says a lot. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Usually companies must be close to the client.

    If the mayor has brought MS to a city which does not use their products, I think this says a lot about MS and their attention to their other clients.

    We should be using that LiMux thing -- if nothing more to make their project more healthy and put an end to MS desktop domination.

    And we must win that battle ASAP, because there's another one coming up: Linux on tablets and phones. That one will be much harder. Yeah, I know Android is Linux, but is so closed people (Russia and China) are thinking about banother Linux (Jolla's Sailfish).

    Any link for download of LiMux? How is it with languages other than German?

  22. SimpleBurn DVDs by pigsycyberbully · · Score: -1

    I had to make some copies of DVDs, everybody does it to avoid the copyright notices that you cannot fast forward past in movie/film "trailers"? The older the DVDs the worst they were. It is perfectly legal in the U.K. to make a copy of the DVDs that you own for your own use. A backup so to speak. The owner was making a fuss about having to watch the copyright warnings and advertising of other films. I do not usually get involved in things like that but this time I did. I made copies of them on Linux Mint with "SimpleBurn"

    All the copies played on my Linux system with no problems they also played on my DVD.
    I tested them on a Windows system and it put foreign subtitles on them without the option to stop subtitles It also gave a warning about copyright that I could not fast forward past on Windows and it gave the name of the films. How do they do that without spying on you.. I switched off the option of collecting information about DVDs being played on Windows so it should not have known.

    It is at times like that I really appreciate Linux and its various desktops.

    I do not watch feature films myself they are like watching paint dry nothing more boring than watching silly crap for an hour?
    The DVDs were jeepers creepers and jeepers creepers 2, and The Sixth Sense, and predator and terminator, Poltergeist, and the zombie DVD collection.

    1. Re:SimpleBurn DVDs by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 1

      This happened even when using VLC?

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
    2. Re:SimpleBurn DVDs by pigsycyberbully · · Score: 0

      This happened even when using VLC?

      It saved them as MP4s so when I put them in his DVD, a option popped up on his DVD player saying select photos, or videos, or music. I simply selected video and it played the films and you could simply fast forward past the copyright notice and for some reason it stripped out the "trailers" advertising other films. So it worked perfectly. It also worked perfectly on the system I use for copying them Linux Mint.

      On Linux Mint it automatically opened the video player as: Totem 3.10.1 https://wiki.gnome.org/Apps/Vi...

      So fast forward worked on the copied DVD, and on Linux Mint. How Windows manages to bring back the lock that stops you from fast forwarding past the copyright notice I do not know. How it got the name of the DVD film and the copyright notice even though sending information is turned off I do know. And I assume that foreign subtitles on Windows was to irritate the watcher because it was a copy.

      Multinationals just cannot get enough information and enough power over people. The odds are that eventually they will get Linux under their thumb eventually.

  23. And mostly AD isn't needed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It;s only needed to get around the fucking idiotic design paradigm of Windows where it's supposed to be your machine with your OS and your stuff. IOW "everything is on the C drive, including boot", meaning that the UNIX (or other mainframe system) way of setting up a client machine to run under the definition of the login user with the programs set up centrally and run dispersed doesn't work under windows, and it's how you want to run a service for business machines. So AD is used to get around the fact that your programs are locally installed and if you need to swap roles under login, you need installs on that machine of all software anyone in any role may need. So it *downloads the fucking programs* on user login to populate "My Computer".

    UNIX you mount under your own home directory and that doesn't have to be local at all. No downloading needed, no replication onto the local machine.

    And to un-fuck this mess of an idea, AD is used.

    If it had been sanely designed or the old Win9x paradigm completely killed off rather than inherited to a half-assed "backward compatibility" god, then AD wouldn't be needed, or would at least have had to be no more complex than LDAP et al.

    1. Re:And mostly AD isn't needed by Junta · · Score: 1

      I was mostly thinking about the NIS replacement side of it, less about the whole roaming profile stuff. My business device with Windows has no roaming profile, for example.

      Incidentally, the nfs /home and similar can be frustrating with devices that communicate over WAN a lot, and replication and cached credentials are valuable. Though using something like nextcloud or seafile is generally a better experience than either remote 'home' or trying to be transparent replication (when replication takes a long time, better to have it out of the way of login and such).

      --
      XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
  24. I think the origianl complaint was... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    something about linux not working well with SAP and Oracle, espcially with HR.

    I work with a medium-to-big company (coincidentally headquartered in Munich-- we make... a luxury item). All of our (many) SAP systems run on SUSE and a majority (all?) of those SAP systems use Oracle. (I sit next to the regional database admin and SAP security admin). I have personally built several interfaces from HR systems on linux using SAP.

    So, the mayor's argument is complete bullshit.

    And... wow... we are truly living in 1984. The news articles that mentioned SAP and Oracle as the reasons seem to have been changed. I'm sure my difficulty in finding corroboration in the original articles is simply my imagination.

  25. Re: Windows is easier for the average person to us by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Professional audio hardware is not for average people. People are getting way more life out of old hardware on win 10 with cheap SSD and ram upgrades.

    Have you tried running linux programs years after popular use or support ends? Jesus Christ getting kernel support and dependencies resolved on EOL stuff is a royal pain in the ass.

    You don't really know what you're talking about.