Slashdot Mirror


Facebook Admits Flaw in Image Moderation After BBC Report (bbc.com)

From a report on BBC: A Facebook executive has admitted to MPs its moderating process "was not working" following a BBC investigation. BBC News reported 100 posts featuring sexualised images and comments about children, but 82 were deemed not to "breach community standards." Facebook UK director Simon Milner told MPs the problem was now fixed. He was speaking to the Commons Home Affairs committee alongside bosses from Twitter and Google as part of an investigation into online hate crime. The BBC investigation reported dozens of posts through the website tool, including images from groups where users were discussing swapping what appeared to be child abuse material. When journalists went back to Facebook with the images that had not been taken down, the company reported them to the police and cancelled an interview, saying in a statement: "It is against the law for anyone to distribute images of child exploitation."

57 comments

  1. "Appeared" to be by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "Appeared" to be child abuse material, but under no reasonable law would they be classified as such.

    1. Re:"Appeared" to be by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then the law is unreasonable because if it appears to be then it is.

    2. Re:"Appeared" to be by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you'd have bigger problems on your hands if you used images of actual child abuse for your test data. Just a thought.

      That said, I agree that it's flawed in that I tried to post a picture from some Charlton Heston film with him and a bunch of guys rowing a Roman warboat when Facebook smacked me down with their automated system. I reported it but nothing back from them so far.

    3. Re:"Appeared" to be by arth1 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "Zero tolerance" laws are always, no exception, a bad idea.
      It's sad when an e-mail service flags and blocks pictures I send to my brother of himself as a child, in a bath tub. Who knows what lists you can get added to because the laws are just plain wrong.

    4. Re:"Appeared" to be by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just snarking on TFS' weasel wording in describing "[images] stolen from newspapers, blogs and even clothing catalogues."

    5. Re:"Appeared" to be by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't pity anyone who has to weigh the chances of possibly helping a child escape abuse, or having their life completely ruined and regarded as the worst kind of monster.

    6. Re:"Appeared" to be by sysrammer · · Score: 1

      ""Zero tolerance" laws are always, no exception, a bad idea."

      Er, is that a "law"?

      Sorry, I haven't had my coffee yet and am still feeling pedanticly.

      --
      His ignorance covered the whole earth like a blanket, and there was hardly a hole in it anywhere. - Mark Twain
    7. Re:"Appeared" to be by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I hope you're not holding your breath waiting for a response.

      I'm of two minds here. First, I think everybody's expectations of Facebook here are completely unreasonable, even Facebook's own (advertised). Second, why the fuck are people using Facebook? People are JUST NOW noticing that Facebook's "report this image" feature not only doesn't work, but will be used against you for perfectly innocent things you've posted.

      There are better ways to get together with friends to share images and links out there. Unlike Facebook, amazingly, a lot of those better ways also don't assume the entire world should be able to access or even be aware of your chat room and who all participates.

      I can't remember the last time I logged on to Facebook. I just remember a series of image macros last time from the most boring people on my contact list who have nothing better to do but click share on lame image macros all day long. (Literally... they're all unemployed/unemployable NEETs and I pretty much forgot they existed until I logged on to FB, the kind of person who makes you ashamed for even being acquainted with.) There is nothing Facebook has to offer that would improve my life.

    8. Re:"Appeared" to be by CaptainDork · · Score: 1

      ... I tried to post a picture from some Charlton Heston film with him and a bunch of guys rowing a Roman warboat ...

      In other words, copyright violation.

      --
      It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
    9. Re:"Appeared" to be by Rockoon · · Score: 2

      "Zero tolerance" laws are always, no exception, a bad idea.

      I like to call them Zero Intelligence laws.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    10. Re:"Appeared" to be by Calydor · · Score: 1

      You appear to be a racist terrorist misogynist pedophile.

      And if you appear to be then you are.

      --
      -=This sig has nothing to do with my comment. Move along now=-
    11. Re:"Appeared" to be by nitehawk214 · · Score: 2

      So, would you say you have zero tolerance for zero tolerance laws?

      --
      I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
    12. Re:"Appeared" to be by arth1 · · Score: 1

      Laugh! No, I tolerate them, but they are still a bad idea. I support getting rid of them, no matter what the zero tolerance policy is; whether it's banning Erlenmeyer flasks, banning knifes at school (prompting a crafts teacher to hand children chisels), or anything else.

      (Which is why I'm also against common law and prefer civil law - in common law, stupid precedents become law, and courts can't use common sense to interpret the meaning of the law, and get stuck on the letter of the law. Zero tolerance plays directly into that.)

    13. Re:"Appeared" to be by cusco · · Score: 1

      I'm reminded of the couple in the '90s who were charged with Child Pornography for putting a photo of their 2 year-old playing naked in the lawn sprinkler on their web page.

      --
      "Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
    14. Re:"Appeared" to be by rtb61 · · Score: 2

      This stop and makes you think about all of the fuss over nakedness, is it somehow unnatural?

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    15. Re: "Appeared" to be by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Shit, copyright still on shit as old as Moses.

    16. Re:"Appeared" to be by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... or a mother sending what she sees as a beautiful photo of her young child playing in the paddling pool. To see naked infants as sexual objects is paedophilia. The law is turning us all into paedophiles. Why are we no longer allowed to simply see the beauty?

    17. Re:"Appeared" to be by SuricouRaven · · Score: 2

      Zero tolerance laws seem to exist mostly to protect officials from accountability, so they can overreact in safety.

      "Yes, I know it seems unreasonable to expel your child for pretending to shoot at a friend with a drinking straw, but my hands are tied. I'm sorry, but I have no choice in the matter. It's the law."

    18. Re:"Appeared" to be by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If God meant us to be naked we would've been born that way.

    19. Re:"Appeared" to be by nitehawk214 · · Score: 1

      I agree. I would throw "three strikes" laws in with this as a subcategory of zero tolerance-type laws.

      --
      I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
    20. Re:"Appeared" to be by arth1 · · Score: 1

      I agree. I would throw "three strikes" laws in with this as a subcategory of zero tolerance-type laws.

      Yes, someone stealing *food* a total of three times going to jail for life is not too helpful. And far more expensive than e.g. creating work programs.

      In my opinion, most knee-jerk good intention laws are flawed.
      That also includes idiotic laws that make rape carry far stronger sentences than other acts of violence, which have unintended consequences like women not reporting rape because they don't want their husband or family member to go to jail for life, or where the perpetrators may choose to kill their victim because the sentence won't be worse if they do so, and it removes the witness.
      Laws need to consider what serves society and individuals best, not what makes the public feel good or righteous.

  2. Facebook flaunts failure by turkeydance · · Score: 1

    for future finances

  3. More importantly... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    ...Is the capture and punishment of those creating these materials. The fact that these materials (photos, videos, etc.) exist is secondary to the more serious crime of child exploitation itself. Humanity often seems to be more concerned with treating the symptom instead of the root cause of the problem, so to speak.

    1. Re:More importantly... by Teun · · Score: 1
      No thieves without fences.

      The interesting thing is Facebook reporting the reporters to the police.

      --
      "The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
  4. Facebook is liable for hosting the images by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Zuckerburg must go to jail. FOREVER.

  5. Of course AI cannot determine this. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    It's like asking AI to define pornography. You'll 64% know it when you see it, maybe, if the image fits a certain general profile. That's not going to work. Hire eyeballs with your BILLIONS OF DOLLARS.

    1. Re:Of course AI cannot determine this. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But then people complain about having to look at horrible pictures

    2. Re:Of course AI cannot determine this. by Falos · · Score: 1

      It really does traumatize workers, even in the high agencies.

      Automation is fine, but not when it's equated with a verdict. It supplements. It does not substitute.

      But hey, our military weapons make sure there's a human sanity check somewhere in the automation chain, so at least the important priorities are being supported.

      Or so I'm told. inb4 drone autonuke mod gets hacked ggezpz

  6. Come and get me coppers! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "It is against the law for anyone to distribute images of child exploitation."

    Come and get me!

    Here they are! being exploited!

    I'm SUCH a badddass!

  7. Well That Explains It by Baby+Duck · · Score: 2

    Maybe this is why whenever I flag a video for showing actual homicide, it never gets taken down.

    --

    "Love heals scars love left." -- Henry Rollins

    1. Re:Well That Explains It by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Why should they be taken down? Videos showing actual homicide aren't illegal. From the tone of the article, neither were the images BBC was reporting. Sounds more like it was teenager bikini selfies and stuff out of underwear catalogs. Just because someone might be offended isn't a good reason to go around censoring everything.

    2. Re:Well That Explains It by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Why does it matter if someone masturbates to a swimsuit catalogue? Even if that catalogue was for younger girls? The point is the parents of those children signed releases for their images to be used in advertising material and distributed widely. In some cases the producer and artistic director of the shoot pushed the boundaries of what society considers decent, or maybe they did not: though at all times the figure behind the [entirely sanctioned and legal] camera was trying to make the shot "special" or to give it some "spice".

      And the person being blamed for all this is the dude (mostly) who faps to an a 100% legal and sanctioned image? Fuck you and the Stazi jackboots you marched in on!

    3. Re:Well That Explains It by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which is the real irony of this. Actually killing someone (maximum harm) is seen as less serious than sending a photo of your child playing next to the paddling pool.

    4. Re: Well That Explains It by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you read the article AND Summary and still didn't understand?

      The fucking thing is that pictures that should have gotten removed, didn't. They weren't harmless selfies.

      Fuck, you're dumb.

  8. Impossible to judge. by SuricouRaven · · Score: 0

    Without knowing exactly what was in the offending posts, how can we possibly know what to think? Somehow I doubt it's that easy to find hardcore child abuse images on facebook, so these might be almost innocent - it wouldn't surprise me if most of them are just swimsuit images from someone's family holiday, or screencaps from Toddlers and Tiaras or some other TV program.

    It reminds me of certain very socially-conservative news sites I've seen decrying something or other as an affront to all that is good in the world, but never describing clearly what they are so upset about because to even describe the material would violate the conscience of their editors - but in that case it's easy to see the material and find that it's not the assault on decency that they claim.

    1. Re:Impossible to judge. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Without knowing exactly what was in the offending posts, how can we possibly know what to think?

      By reading TFA, or even just TFS?

      1) It was bad enough that the BBC felt the need to report it to facebook.
      2) It was bad enough that facebook felt the need to report the BBC to the authorities for distributing "images of child exploitation" [TFS].

      Imagine you're in a public library, digging through an obscure section of the stacks, and you come across something with a title like "An Illustrated History of Child Pornography", with exactly the contents you'd expect, complete with "Property Of" stamp and a library checkout log. You bring it to the librarian to complain, and instead of simply turning over the offending article to the authorities, the librarian calls the cops on you for peddling kiddy porn. That's basically what facebook just did.

      Yes, the images on facebook are a problem, and deserves as much attention as it can get. But this story isn't about the images, it's about facebook's mishandling of the situation after being notified of the problem.

  9. Re:Pedophiles should be put down by arth1 · · Score: 2

    People who can't distinguish paedophilia from child abuse should be put behind bars, as they're a danger to society.
    It would surprise me if the great majority of paedophiles and zoophiles aren't abstaining from pursuing their desires(?). My guess is that we only hear about the exceptions.

    Or put it this way, have you ever dreamt or thought about killing someone? Does that make you a murderer who should face the penalty for such?

    As for preventative actions, judging from all statistics I've seen, children have a much higher risk of being molested by their fathers than anyone else. Should we put down fathers, then?

  10. Cannot be fixed, not really by jediborg · · Score: 2

    When is facebook going to admit that it is physically impossible to filter out all the kiddie porn? According to this website https://zephoria.com/top-15-va... there are 300 million pictures posted EVERY DAY. Even if someone can review 1,000 pictures a day facebook would have to hire 300,000 people to ensure none of the pictures posted are 'kiddie porn'

    And computer scientists know there is no automated way to screen these photos without generating false positives. Even an algorithm that was 99% accurate, would mean 1% of 300 million pictures, or 3 MILLION pictures would get falsely reported as child pornography and taken down every single day. And let me tell you, our image recognition algorithms are nowhere near 99% accurate.

    And lets not forget that the line between photography and pornography of children is very grey. Legal definitions tend to be very generic or subjective, neither of which are handled well by algorithms that want discreet and objective measurements to work well. We can't as humans even agree on what is considered 'Pornography' or not, a U.S. Supreme court justice once famously said "I know it when i see it"

    I expect the politicians to not understand they are asking facebook to draw 3 blue lines with a red marker. I'm surprised facebook isn't educating these politicians to understand that some laws are impossible to enforce. Instead of going after those who post kiddie porn pictures, they should be looking at going after the people who originally took/created the kiddie porn pictures.

    1. Re:Cannot be fixed, not really by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      Even if someone can review 1,000 pictures a day facebook would have to hire 300,000 people to ensure none of the pictures posted are 'kiddie porn'

      Good. Facebook's stupid system should be unbearably expensive, even with content moderator farms in Morocco where your image doesn't get more than a second's consideration.

      It's currently a kiddie-pool design, where people can get accounts semi-anonymously, people can report things that make them feel uncomfortable anonymously, and the images are taken down anonymously.

      How 'bout this:? You show some ID to get an account. If you post kiddie porn, it gets reported to the police and they come knock on your door. Whoever reports you to the police is not anonymous, and if they are filing a false report you can sue them for harasement, slander, and bill them for your time.

      Oh, but that's not a padded-wall environment that keeps you on the site for as long as possible so you can be shown the maximum number of ads. I won't begrudge them their maximum profit, but it should be really clear what those ads cost.

      Sure, it means radical ideas won't do well on Facebook, but there are other sites for that and it also means one can participate in a group that appreciates 18th-century paintings without getting put in the timeout chair. A bit more like real life than Facebook's current unsustainable fantasy.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    2. Re:Cannot be fixed, not really by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      ... Even if someone can review 1,000 pictures a day facebook would have to hire 300,000 people to ensure none of the pictures posted are 'kiddie porn'

      And computer scientists know there is no automated way to screen these photos without generating false positives. Even an algorithm that was 99% accurate, would mean 1% of 300 million pictures, or 3 MILLION pictures would get falsely reported as child pornography and taken down every single day. And let me tell you, our image recognition algorithms are nowhere near 99% accurate.

      That's why you do a multi-tier system, with AI doing the first couple of passes, humans doing a quick glance as the third pass, and serious scrutiny only for things that make it through the first three passes. You configure the algorithms to err on the side of detection. If that results in a 5% hit rate instead of a fraction of a percent, then you have maybe 15 million pictures for a human to review and decide whether to take them down. Then you remove all the pictures that are duplicates or near duplicates of photos that have been posted before (e.g. ignoring the text part of image macros), and you probably have closer to 1–2 million pictures for a human to review. At that point, if a person can review 1,000 in a day, you now need 1,000 reviewers.

      Also, I suspect that 1,000 photos per person per day is a low estimate. Most of the time you can glance at it for a quarter of a second and tap the "It's safe" button. Some will take longer, obviously. I'd expect it to average only a couple of seconds unless something gets flagged for secondary review. That's on the order of 10–15,000 photos per day per reviewer, so we're probably talking about a hundred reviewers, plus a half dozen tier 2 reviewers that do secondary screening for stuff flagged by the front-line screeners.

      Now for videos... that's another problem.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    3. Re:Cannot be fixed, not really by CaptainDork · · Score: 1

      How 'bout this:? You show some ID to get an account.

      How 'bout I don't show some ID to get an account at a place that doesn't require all that shit?

      Facebook is not a goddam governmental agency where membership is a requirement.

      Facebook is a business and will spend money to fend off external efforts to get it to spend money.

      --
      It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
    4. Re:Cannot be fixed, not really by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      Even if someone can review 1,000 pictures a day facebook would have to hire 300,000 people to ensure none of the pictures posted are 'kiddie porn'

      Why did you pull such a bad number out of your ass?

      1000 is basically only 2 images per minute for an 8 hour work shift. If you worked for me I'd be looking into your productivity right now.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    5. Re:Cannot be fixed, not really by jediborg · · Score: 1

      I will admit, i pulled '1,000' pictures a day out of my ass. But it still seems pretty reasonably to me, its 30 seconds an image. If its a picture of a dog then thats only 1s to analyze and move on, but then you come to someone who posted a picture of their 8 year old in a swimsuit. Is that okay? Better ask the manager. Thats more than 30 seconds. Manager says its okay. 15 pictures later and its a pic of an 8 year old in a swimsuit lying on his back smiling at the camera. That was probably innocently taken by the parent, but could be loved and shared by pedophiles. Does it count as pornography? It could be 2-15 minutes discussing with colleagues or management on what the rulling for that pic is.

      So at the end of the day i think an average of 30 seconds a picture is pretty good guess.

  11. Re:Pedophiles should be put down by gurps_npc · · Score: 2

    So speaks ignorance. Pedophiles have a lower recidivism rate than most other crimes i.e. not only CAN they be reformed, if not cured, but we are better at doing it than for most other crimes.

    People convicted of sex crimes against children and released have less than 4% chance of being arrested again for sex crimes against children - but over 40% chance of being arrested again for any crime. And yes, they check the computer when they arrest them for littering.

    In other words, the cops go after them, but most never re-offend against children.

    There are several reasons for this, including a relatively high death rate in prison (child molesters are targetted), long prison sentences (if you get arrested at 40 and released at 60, your sex drive has faded), and also mandatory counseling.

    Basically, you are just an ignorant person repeating an old meme that has been repeatably proven wrong.

    Numbers from the 1994 government study (https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/ascii/rsorp94.txt)

    --
    excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
  12. Large fines by Martin+S. · · Score: 1

    We need to level fines at such a large level that they act as a deterrent. FB would quickly find a solution to this problem.

    1. Re:Large fines by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      Yes, and the solution would be to withdraw all management from the US and incorporate in Bermuda.

  13. Oh please ... by PPH · · Score: 2

    ... let BBC stand for the British Broadcasting Corporation. Or I'm not clicking on that link.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
  14. 'Content Moderation' == Censorship by Rick+Schumann · · Score: 1

    Disclaimer: I don't want to see child porn or ISIS propaganda of people getting their heads cut off. EVER.
    However: So-called 'content moderation' should be called what it is: censorship. Doesn't matter if it's a non-governmental, privately-owned company, enforcing their own rules on their own website, it's still censorship. Stop with the 'newspeak' already.

    1. Re:'Content Moderation' == Censorship by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Given that in effect there is no difference, do you have an actual point?
      Censorship is not inherently bad, except in the mind of free speech at all costs nutters, whom largely seem to be lbertarian nut jobs.

    2. Re:'Content Moderation' == Censorship by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The fact that you have to disclaim like that means that you don't really believe in what you say.

    3. Re:'Content Moderation' == Censorship by Maritz · · Score: 1

      If it isn't state censorship, nobody cares. And that's precisely how it should be. If you don't like a platform's policies, off you fuck.

      --
      I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
    4. Re:'Content Moderation' == Censorship by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're an asshole.

    5. Re:'Content Moderation' == Censorship by Rick+Schumann · · Score: 1

      Censorship is not inherently bad unless it affects me personally, then it's REALLY BAD

      Fixed that for you. People like you typically don't care what happens to anyone else, but you get all righteously indignated and suddenly become 'activists' when it affects you.

    6. Re:'Content Moderation' == Censorship by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The fact that you sound like a troll means that you're a troll -- and/or are probably projecting like a madman. Better go DBAN your hard drives before the FBI party van rolls up to your doorstep.

  15. Re:Pedophiles should be put down by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Saying that child molesters are pedophiles is like saying that prison rapists are homosexuals. Children are targeted because they are easy to manipulate or otherwise intimidate into silence, and easy for an adult to overpower. Same reason an old lady is an easy target for a purse snatcher.

  16. now arrest the facebook directors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    and executive officers for wasting police time and distributing child porn.