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Australia To Ban Unvaccinated Children From Preschool (newscientist.com)
An anonymous reader quotes a report from New Scientist: No-jab, no play. So says the Australian Prime Minister, Malcolm Turnbull, who has announced that unvaccinated children will be barred from attending preschools and daycare centers. Currently, 93 percent of Australian children receive the standard childhood vaccinations, including those for measles, mumps and rubella, but the government wants to lift this to 95 percent. This is the level required to stop the spread of infectious disease and to protect children who are too young to be immunized or cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons. Childcare subsidies have been unavailable to the families of unvaccinated children since January 2016, and a version of the new "no jab, no play" policy is already in place in Victoria, New South Wales and Queensland. Other states and territories only exclude unvaccinated children from preschools during infectious disease outbreaks. The proposed policy is based on Victoria's model, which is the strictest. It requires all children attending childcare to be fully immunized, unless they have a medical exemption, such as a vaccine allergy.
Wonderful. Good on ya, Australia. Outside of very uncommon medical situations, there is no damn reason for anything less than this. It's a goddamn embarrassment that there are fracking measles outbreaks in the 21st goddamn century, much less that they're getting larger and occurring with increased frequency.
Vaccines save lives. Full stop.
This is a great idea. I'm sad that kids with stupid parents cannot get into school, but it's not worth risking all of the other kids, especially those who cannot get the vaccine due to medical reasons.
I'm unsure banning children of uneducated parent is the best course of action...
Elok
Yair, 'bout that, h33t.. we've been havin' some trouble gettin' them arfids down the needle. We were gunna use a bigger needle but the kids sorta freaked, ya know? Don't blame 'em, meself. Any nong approaching me with a McDonalds-straw-sized needle is gunna get a boot to the balls.
This is a great idea. I'm sad that kids with stupid parents cannot get into school
This is to do with day care for pre-schoolers, I don't think we are at the stage where we are going to stop kids attending school. Even the link in the above story to the Australian Anti-Vaccination Network --a link to the AVN ... FFS editors, how about here instead?! --doesn't make that claim.
The Federal policy in force at the moment is the "no jab, no pay" policy, meaning that parents of unimmunised children are not eligible for childcare related tax rebates etc.
This is not a ban from primary or secondary schools, only pre-school and day-care facilities where the concentration of children with less developed immunity is high.
Patent litigation: A doctrine of Mutually Assured Destruction... in which everyone seems willing to push the button
I would prefer to ban uneducated parents, myself, but policing it would be a nightmare.
I'm unsure banning children of uneducated parent is the best course of action...
The aim being the protection of the children who --despite their parents having taken the socially responsible course of action in having them vaccinated -- may become seriously ill and even die as a result of unimmunised vectors being inserted into their day care facilities, I can think of no better course of action than simply to ban the vectors. What would suggest instead?
And what relevance is the educational status of the refusing parents? We are not talking about access to the education system, where it is sadly impossible to bad non-immunised kids, but access to day care facilities primarily for children younger than school age.
Around here kids are banned from school(primary and secondary) if they don't have up to date immunization records, or a reasonable reason to why they're not immunized(i.e. severe reactions). Considering the absolute shit that happened a few years back with multiple measles, mumps and rubella, not to mention whooping cough outbreaks, it's nothing but a good option.
If there'd been a chickenpox vaccine when I was a kid, I would have taken it. 2 weeks of absolute shit, and it nearly killed my one sister(who spent 6mo in ICU). All because some little shit stain and their parents decided that it was a good idea to have their kid out in public while infectious.
Om, nomnomnom...
I'm 100% fine with this. I did my job, made my kids cry and took the 0.001% chance for the safety of the community. You can't be bothered? Fuck you.
In my Grandparents' generation, the recruiting posters said, "your country needs you" and people signed up to fight in a *war* to protect their families and communities, and many of those people didn't come back. Now we simply ask that you get a couple tiny jabs to protect your family and community from some of the most terrible diseases imaginable, and people think there's too much risk. Yes, there's a *tiny* risk, but you still choose to drive little Johnny all over town to soccer practices and birthday parties, putting your precious cargo at far higher risk of death from a car accident than any risk from the vaccine, and then there's the fact that your child is now much more likely to get those diseases. It's literally ridiculous.
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain
That is currently being tried here in the Seattle area, but so many leftist parents are refusing vaccinations that it simply can't be done. The school district several of my friends are in have a nearly 25% vaccination refusal rate:
http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/local/article26252716.html
You can't deny nearly a fourth of the kids from education. Of course the Republicans here want to do that since they're anti-science and support mandatory vaccinations.
_Proven_ a non-issue.
Scandinavia has been mercury free for decades now. No change in autism rates compared to the rest of the world. Whatever it is, it isn't the mercury in vaccines.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
I'm one of those *few* parents who had a child that was allergic and could not be vaccinated against one of the more virulent diseases. Fortunately, when she was older she outgrew that allergy and is now current on all her vaccinations. As a parent, sending my daughter to school where others CHOSE to not vaccinate their children thereby risking exposing mine to something nasty was a hard thing to do. I felt like I was living in the dark ages where being a part of any group could be anywhere from bad to a death sentence.
We might say that the parents who decide not to do the right thing are simply "dumb," or, as I called them, "*(!^*(&^!*%**'s." Time has taught me otherwise. In the US and elsewhere, many people aren't taught or don't remember basic scientific method. They have no idea what the difference is between doubting what they have been told, and actually engaging in critical, productive, thinking. STEM is important, but perhaps we should require those who can't handle it to take something more akin to STEM lite. Barring that, penalties for parents who refuse to take care of *OTHER PEOPLES CHILDREN* shouldn't be frowned upon. IMHO.
Because that's a bullshit straw man argument? They weren't pulled from the market because they never existed as separate vaccines anywhere in the world; http://www.hpsc.ie/A-Z/Vaccine...
Shouldn't matter. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity
You can't deny nearly a fourth of the kids from education.
Why not? The Washington State education system is woefully underfunded. Cutting out 25% of the demand will bring the budget back into the black. Just tell the parents to home-school the little runny-nosed ankle biters.
Have gnu, will travel.
It's not uneducated parents that are the problem. It's a lot of middle-class mothers who are totally convinced by the pseudo-science and rubbish that's peddled on the internet and by "Wellness" gurus. Australia seems to be infested with them.
Someone has just been hammered for this.
The Paleo Diet is alive and well here, pushed by a chef who somehow has become a dietary-science expert and made a mint from pushing books that contain dangerous pseudo-diets.
We also seem to be very susceptible to charlatans spruiking special-cancer treatments that do nothing but give false hope, drain someone's bank account and leaves them dead quicker.
You can't deny nearly a fourth of the kids from education. Of course the Republicans here want to do that since they're anti-science and support mandatory vaccinations.
Arrest the parents for child endangerment. The foster homes will get the kids vaccinated and they'll get an education. No reason to tolerate child abuse.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
In my experience it's not necessarily uneducated parents. Uneducated parents, if they have access to a pediatrician, are apt to follow his or her advice. It's educated parents who question, and the miseducated ones question and come up with bad answers.
What we are looking at in the anti-vaxxer movement is Emersonian self-reliance run amok. We've succeeded in teaching a generation not to put blind trust in authority figures, but without an interest in STEM for its own sake and with limited critical thinking skills, they have no choice but to turn to alternative authorities, individuals who embody everything that should be feared in an authority: deviousness, venality and ruthlessness.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Seattle is the most educated city on the planet so of course we stand against vaccinations.
Ha ha, oh man. I needed a good laugh. You should really learn to use a search engine.
-The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.
There's an interesting side angle to this. Australia has a strong public health system, so a lot of unvaxed people end up in public hospitals being fixed at public expense. Therefore, it is very reasonable that the state (ie, the other taxpayers) ask someone to take reasonable precautions; if they expect the taxpayer to pick up the tab, they should expect to be asked to take care. I kind of have the same feeling about things like bike helmets and seat belts. I object to my taxes paying for brain surgery on someone who was too stupid to wear a helmet. Put it another way: If you don't wear a helmet you're opting out of public health system... I don't think I'd implement that, but it kind of argues towards the point that if the state is bearing the cost of fixing the results of stupidity, then it has the obligation to encourage people away from stupidity. The question is -- how forcibly? Otherwise you ban smokes, you ban booze, you ban ... where does it end?
However, after educating myself on this specific topic, the only question I have is, "why pull the individual vaccines from the market if they work?"
Because nearly all parents are going to opt to vaccinate for measles, mumps AND rubella, and combining them means you give your kid two doses of vaccine instead of six.
Why not leave them as an option for parents who prefer that approach?
Because the market of parents who'd prefer to give their kids six vaccine doses rather than two is too small to profitably serve.
They took away the proven safe alternatives that had worked for decades.
Actually, that's not true. MMR was introduced in 1971, and by now has a much longer safety record than the individuals vaccines it replaces: Attenuvax (Measles, 1961), Mumpsvax (1967), and Meruvax (Rubella, 1969).
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
The first measles vaccine (according to http://www.historyofvaccines.o...) came in 1960, followed by the mumps and rubella vaccines later in the sixties, and then the first combination MMR vaccine in 1971....
I'm not sure where this page gets its information from, but I know for a fact (from my immunization records) that I was given three separate shots (administered the same day, mind you, but not a single shot containing a combination of the three vaccines) as a child, both for my initial vaccination (1973) and the subsequent boosters (1982). My son (now 8) got the combination MMR vaccine since they no longer manufacture the separate ones.
I print, therefore I am.
Methyl mercury is very toxic.
Vaccines used thimerosal as a preservative, thimerosal is a different mercury compound.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
What's more, your "correction" to the previous person was for something he didn't say.
I homeschool my kids. I also vaccinate them.
I couldn't care less what requirements public education has, here or elsewhere. Just don't make me pay twice to educate my kids and stop letting local politicians be selfish bastards about public resources. The local park won't let a group of homeschooling parents setup a PE program w/o paying a $500/year annual fee for park permit....yet the public school kids get to throw everyone off part of the park during school hours.
The only credible research I've seen showed a possible connection to intestinal bacteria getting out of control after vaccination in some young children, with the advice to simply spread the initial two dozen or so recommended vaccinations over a slightly longer period of time (I think it was 48 months), with prioritization given to highly infectious and deadly diseases (e.g. meningitis).
There are also a bunch of "non-medical" ingredients in some manufacturer's vaccines that are prescription drugs (statins, etc.) used to "bootstrap" the vaccines but that are not approved for use in children otherwise. Some localities do enforce requirements on such ingredients in children's vaccines while others don't... I'm not aware of any specific research into the side-effects of such ingredients, but (as an example) our son's pediatrician avoided given vaccines containing unapproved ingredients to children out of simple caution.
Ultimately I think the biggest problem is that both "sides" are demonizing the other, with "pro vaccine" people calling anyone who has questions or fears about vaccines an idiot, dangerous, etc. and governments providing a liability shield to vaccine manufacturers and forcing parents to give their children more and more vaccines on an accelerated schedule, often with little or no notice. As an example, we were told our son's vaccinations were up to date at the beginning of the last school year only to be told 8 months later he needed another vaccination or he would not be allowed to continue going to school. Getting a notice from the government saying "do this or else" is hardly a way to build a trusting relationship. And experts not talking openly and freely with those that have concerns forces those with concerns to talk with the "alternate experts" that are willing to fill their heads with their agenda.
I print, therefore I am.
The question doesn't make sense. The vaccines you're talking about don't exist. The rule is that you need the MMR vaccine, because that's what's currently required to get immunized. I'm sure they'd consider changing the rule if/when a viable alternative were produced, tested, and shown to be effective.
Of course the Republicans here want to do that since they're anti-science and support mandatory vaccinations.
Make up your mind, are they anti-science or do they support mandatory vaccinations? Or did you throw in the anti-science as an unrelated insult?
I finally have an excuse to punch kids in the face at the local preschool playground! "Excuse me officer but does the school not have a policy of 'no jab, no play'?" At which point I know they'll see reason and begin punching the children too. ;)
Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
"It's a lot of middle-class mothers who are totally convinced by the pseudo-science and rubbish"
You're being far more charitable than called for.
I think many of these parents fully understand the risks involved, but have chosen the selfish path.
If you shield your child from vaccinations you shield them from the low risk of vaccine related complications (which in rare cases can be very serious). Given the very low risk that your child will be exposed to the more serious diseases these vaccines protect against, and therefore the chances of getting the more rare side effects of these diseases are extremely low.
This approach can trade minimising the absolute risk to their child against increasing the risk to the community. However, this only works if they're in a very small minority of parents adopting this approach AND the risk levels (in particular, the risk of those diseases in the community) stay the same during the period at which the child can make such decisions for themselves.
Both of those assumptions have been false, the number of people not vaccinating has increased, and, consequently, the risk of contracting these diseases has been increasing as herd immunity decreases. It is unfortunate that it will be their children who will suffer from their selfishness.
If you want to argue from that direction, you also have to argue against mandatory education on the same grounds.
Around here kids are banned from school(primary and secondary) if they don't have up to date immunization records, or a reasonable reason to why they're not immunized(i.e. severe reactions). Considering the absolute shit that happened a few years back with multiple measles, mumps and rubella, not to mention whooping cough outbreaks, it's nothing but a good option.
Having contracted whooping cough after herd immunity went away, about 8 years ago. I can say with authority that if you can do anything to avoid watching your child whoop, lose consciousness and die right before your eyes of an easily avoidable illness, you better do it. Because if you don't, you're complicit in their death.
Damn near killed me. and the whoops had a nasty tendency to happen when I was all alone. They hit whenyou are at the bottom of a breathing cycle, and the whole world actually turns kinda brown and dark, and fortunately the spasms stopped and I recovered, but I have no patience at all for these child abusers who put their children at risk of death.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
Since it's pre-school that's kind of irrelevant. It's a place to park children and a play group not a school.
Sadly, they do have appy app apps. At least one of them is called VacciDate and gets government-sponsored advertising all the time. http://vaccinate.initiatives.q...
The same page you linked suggests the MMR came out 2 years prior to your initial vaccination and 11 years before your boosters. Are you /sure/ your immunization records are specific as to what needles were used and not just what you were immunized against? Who even has such a thing 44 years later...
Regardless, the window of MMR "trials" is 46 years vs maybe 2 years for 3x injections since Rubella vaccine was last "to market", so that article was a little overstated, but still "pulled from the market" is bullshit. That's like saying buggy whips were "pulled from the market".
(source CDC data)
I honestly doubt that CDC data says anything like that. But I'd be liable to be persuaded that I'm wrong were you able actually to cite your claimed source.
Measles [invalid citation] mortality was reduced ... please explain why vaccine-induced herd immunity is so vital in combating the disease.
That's not pertinent to a discussion of herd immunity which deals with infection rather than mortality rates. One can reduce mortality by improved treatment irrespective of the changes in infection rates. Consequently you are asking for the wrong explanation: It's not important in combating the course of the disease, it's important in containing the spread of the disease. And the relevant explanation is conveniently to be found on OP's cited Wikipedia page.
Herd immunity is totally misunderstood by most people who cite it in threads such as this one ... It has nothing to do with vaccines
'Herd immunity' is concept central to our vaccination efforts. It is the very reason that rather than relying on individual vaccination, governments find themselves compelled to initiate efforts such as that discussed here.
Herd immunity is not a difficult concept to grasp: it is simply the tautological observation that in a population where immunity to a particular pathogen is high, the number of vectors liable to bring to disease to the non-immune is low. You are correct that herd immunity can exist absent any vaccination. However that is not to say "[i]t has nothing to do with vaccines." On the contrary, modern vaccination programs are aimed precisely at establishing herd immunity toward targeted pathogens.
That's what me and every other kid in that time period did.
There were a hundred and fifty of us living in a shoebox in the middle of the road ...
This is a great idea. I'm sad that kids with stupid parents cannot get into school,...
Ironically enough, the anti-vax crowd are the people most in need of education. This is basically prohibiting dumb people from going to school.
HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
Some people just don't know, or don't care to know the difference between methyl and ethyl groups.
Here's an experiment you can do at home.
Have a shot of wood alcohol. It will calm your nerves, permanently.
Have you ever fallen asleep at the keybhanusdiog?
Haha, I wouldn't want to know how many thousands of boring people those producers had to sift through to fill 40 minutes of airtime.
But to answer your points:
1) Personally after taking numerous shitty taxi trips from airports, I'd be glad if they just checked their ability to drive, forget their immigration status.
2) Yes, proper ones are, and yes, you can put someone's eye out. Or is removing someone's eye not a problem where you live?
3) Yes. They are classified as "less than lethal" weapons, but you can get unlucky and there are plenty of cases out there if you want to check it out.
4) Biosecurity is Very Serious Business in Australia. We are an island continent, and - cane toads and rabbits aside - have enjoyed the ability to keep most pests and nuisance animals out with simple checks at airports. I'm sorry if your country is a lost cause in that respect.
5) They are very, very sensitive, because smart smugglers triple-wrap their goods a layer at a time in a different rooms and only then do they transfer them to their luggage. If your bag is placed on a surface that had certain powdery substances on it a year ago, then you'll trigger that machine.
You are in a twisty maze of processor lines, all alike.
There is a lot of hype here.
Suing the parents whose children not being vaccinated caused a measles (or worse) outbreak for the FULL costs of the medical treatment might help them get real.
I see that the colonial education system is of its usual quality...
I have the right to drive my car despite the chance I'll seriously injury someone else?
> Since it's pre-school that's kind of irrelevant. It's a place to park children and a play group not a school.
I've seen some very good pre-schools working with normal kids to help socialize them in ways that modern, smaller families who keep changing neighborhoods find very difficult. I've also seen them do invaluable work with children with learning or physical disabilities, and with children whose parents are struggling to make ends meet and can't themselves provide the variety of supervised outings and educationally oriented play time that a good pre-school provides. Those factors can be _very_ helpful for ensuring early familiarity with reading, writing, numbers, and dealing with other children.
OK wait. So you're suggesting undereducated parents should be responsible for educating their children? There seems to be a flaw in your logic there.
Not to mention uneducated people tend to be on the lower end of the pay scale so a large portion of those parents will be working stupid hours for little pay in order to keep their kids fed already.. finding time to educate them as well is likely not going to be plausible.
So in 10 years you've got 25% of your youth population being uneducated, unsupervised and hitting the streets with all of the great judgement skills your average teenager brings with them at the best of times.
A better solution would be to designate 25% of the schools for kids of anti-vaxxers. Sooner or later the problem will solve itself, one way or another. And those who don't have idiots for parents can happily continue on their way in a disease-free (or at least disease-minimized) environment.
So kids with stupid parents will be further disadvantaged by limiting education.
Yeah, I guess I underestimated the lack of sarcasm detection/humour among vaccination fanatics. My bad. Yours too apparently. Note to self: stay away from these threads.
Thus you are irate, when it is possible, even probable, that nobody knew of the potential for infection.
Yes of course just like the other AC that spouts off shit and has no idea of what they're talking about. Never mind the big, huge, gigantic announcement, on the TV, radio, magazines, newspapers, pamphlets sent home with kids, warning notices stuck to doors stating that there was a chickenpox outbreak and if you had even the slightest belief that you were infected, had come in contact with someone who was infected(and developed symptoms later), and etc., etc., etc., you should not be out in public.
Hate to break it to you kid, but this was less then 10 years after the last polio case in North America. Unlike today where people seem to have the belief that serious infectious diseases are gone, which works very well for things like TB. Which of course requires all kinds of new things especially if you do volunteer work.
Om, nomnomnom...
What's happened? I actually agree with one of your posts! This is all very strange.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
Perhaps true in some cases but not exactly essential is it? The older posters here would have never been to a pre-school when they were young, and probably a pile of the newer ones as well.
As blunt instrument attempted social engineering goes it's mostly harmless.
All because some little shit stain and their parents decided that it was a good idea to have their kid out in public while infectious.
Is this speculation on your part, or do you know this for a fact?
Because chickenpox can be contagious before you show any symptom.
1. Chickenpox can sneak in without any symptoms. You may be contagious even before you know you have chickenpox. But, the time you are most contagious is probably the first few days after the "pox" appear.
hi.
Mortality is not the only useful measure here. It's great that fewer people die with or without vaccination, but there are impacts from being sick that are also useful to mitigate. In the worst cases, people can become permanently debilitated as a consequence of a disease that in others just caused a nasty rash. Another facto to consider, and this IMHO is compatible with the interest in military use for some diseases, is that if a big number of people gets sick at the same time, it is highly disruptive of life in society.
If instead of waiting for people to catch diseases and then gain natural immunity you do something to acquire immunity, you have a better chance of avoiding big numbers in morbidity, not just mortality. It is not just a nice bonus if by doing this each individual is less likely to be spreading the disease for several weeks that year, and is hopefully not becoming deaf or blind.
My vaccination card (which I do still have for some reason) lists the vaccinations separately while my son's lists a single MMR entry, and I do remember getting separate shots for my booster. As for why I didn't get the combined shot, it might have been a local government thing (vaccination schedules vary widely between counties/states/countries) or a cost thing (new drugs are typically more expensive than old ones). But they *were* administered on the same day...
I agree that "pulled from the market" is overstating things - it was just supply and demand.
I print, therefore I am.
Seriously you're asking why one is different from the other? Someone who hasn't been vaccinated and has a good immune system who gets infected with certain viruses still has a fighting chance. Someone with a weakened immune system has no chance if they got infected with said viruses, let alone the weakened variants that are in vaccines.
That's why people are sympathetic to one side and critical to the other. The growing amount of unvaccinated kids are causing outbreaks and while they may have a chance of surviving, it's a death setence to a very small minority who depend on everyone else to not carry these viruses.
Actually, that's not true. MMR was introduced in 1971, and by now has a much longer safety record than the individuals vaccines it replaces:
Cool. So where are the results of the drug trials comparing the effects and side effects of MMR to a control? You know, like they do with other drugs.
You can do a google scholar literature view for a "systematic review" of controlled experiments, like you would with any other drug. You should confine your attention to high impact factor journals though.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
You could start with
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesaf...
which summarizes expected risks and links to some studies, published medical articles.
This is basic "social contract" stuff. Your part of the contract is that you expose your children to the very small risk that they will have an unfavourable reaction to being vaccinated. In return, you get to participate in all the things society provides: schooling, day care, playgrounds, theatres, etc.
I would never dream of forcing parents to vaccinate their children. But if that's their choice, they shouldn't get all the good stuff that goes along with fulfilling their part of the social contract, either.
In fact, I'd even go a step further. If it could be proved that somebody who had no choice about being vaccinated suffered because they were exposed directly or indirectly to a child whose parents chose not to vaccinate, those parents should be held legally responsible.
I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
My kid had the Chicken Pox 3 times. The first was a mild case from the vaccine, which is pretty normal. The second was an outbreak in his school, (all mild cases) caused by a child who received the vaccine. Again, this is somewhat normal with the live vaccine. The third was a full blown case of chicken pox because apparently he was one of the unlucky few that the vaccine didn't actually work for.
Given your statement I would be able to sue the school, parents of the kid who's vaccine caused dozens to get chicken pox, and possibly the doctor or person responsible for the vaccine.
Just remember, you reap what you sow.
-The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.
Perhaps they should just require the parents to go through school again, seeing as how it didn't seem to stick the first time.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
I think many of these parents fully understand the risks involved
You clearly haven't met these people. Here let me provide you a thought process:
"There is no risk of infection because
a) herd immunity,
b) my daughters diet of kale, avocado, and unicorn piss makes her immune,
c) you can never believe doctors as they are in the pockets of big pharma,
d) yes of course I know what big pharma means,
e) what do you mean I'm talking crap, you clearly don't understand. Maybe you should do a sugar detox because detoxing helps your brain and reduces the risk of cancer too.
Why not leave them as an option for parents who prefer that approach?
There are two classes of parents:
a) the classes who believe vaccines are evil big pharma propaganda. These people are not going to pick only one vaccine, especially because by selling them individually it's just another example of big pharma nickle and diming us.
b) parents who believe in vaccines, follow the schedule, realise that the kids need all three anyway, would likely not have a crying baby 6 times, but only twice, would rather not incur the cost of 6 vaccines but only 2.
The when the MMR vaccines were discovered to be compatible with combining in a single dose it stopped making sense to do them individually. Even travel vaccines such as Hep B et al come in multi-dose vials and doctors will generally advise single doses only in cases where you have a medical record showing you've received the single doses for the others and you're still covered. Even then I opted for the multi vaccine last time.
He won't because he's either a troll or an idiot.
Australia is a nanny state, but not for any of the reasons you list. They mostly make perfect sense given Australia's environment.
In the meantime try buy a Kinder Surprise in the USA. I think it's actually easier to get kids to go out and buy heroin.
PArt of the problem seems to be that there are more and more vaccines for less and less serious illnesses but they're all going direct to the mandatory list. It would be more reasonable to have a core of well tested and understood vaccines that are required and then others that are suggested until they are better understood.
A good bright line test will be if it is in the core it shall be made available for free at the school given by a nurse on parental request. If it's not important enough to be made available on those terms, it's not important enough to keep the kid out of school.
It is possible a kid might come down with one of the diseases they are vaccinated for, but it will not spread very far or very fast. There will be many fewer total infections from the outbreak.
It's the difference between one or two kids get the disease and parents are reminded to keep their kid home if he gets a fever vs. close the school and half the kids get sick anyway.
Because the vaccine is a few thousand times less likely to cause death or permanent disability.
Also, unlike contracting the disease, getting the vaccine doesn't risk giving it to several others before you (or they) even know you have it.
Sure, however people who repeat claims that have been disproven by tests in large populations (mercury preservatives in vaccines) are in _fact_ idiots.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Ok - so I'm anal about this... but for those of us who are, it does do terrible things to our ability to hear what is being said. So be kind to those of us who have this disability.
This is a great discussion of the need for provision
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Eats-...
based on the old joke
“A panda walks into a cafe. He orders a sandwich, eats it, then draws a gun and fires two shots in the air.
"Why?" asks the confused waiter, as the panda makes towards the exit. The panda produces a badly punctuated wildlife annual and tosses it over his shoulder.
"I'm a panda," he says, at the door. "Look it up."
The waiter turns to the relevant entry and, sure enough, finds an explanation.
Panda. Large black-and-white bear-like mammal, native to China. Eats, shoots and leaves.”
You also have no authority of expose any of us to your poor decision. So on the same principle, we sentence you to exile or isolation.
Your freedom to swing your fist ends at my (and my children's) nose.
For some reason I remember them lining us up and that big multi-needle injection gun being pushed against our arm, a band-aid applied, then we all went out for recess. Was this a local/regional thing or am I seriously misremembering my grade school days?
Yeah, I guess I underestimated the lack of sarcasm detection/humour among vaccination fanatics. My bad. Yours too apparently. Note to self: stay away from these threads.
I've been burned by that over and over here too, and you'd think I'd learn. But I'm just too addicted to sarcasm to stop using it on Internet forums.
You can do a google scholar literature view for a "systematic review [google.com]" of controlled experiments, like you would with any other drug. You should confine your attention to high impact factor journals though.
He's not interested in that because he's already made up his mind and is coming from a "all this is bullshit" attitude.
It is most certainly adequate. There are ways of testing to see if a patient has immunity. For instance, if a patient had measles and has immunity, they should not be required to again get the vaccine. I recently had a immunity test to see if I needed boosters. I did not have immunity to chicken pox (since I've never had then nor was I vaccinated against them). I got a ditheria and pertussis booster because my immunity had waned a bit.
The importance is not the vaccines, but the immunity, which can be received from many sources (I knew I hadn't had it, but the doctor wanted to test me anyway in case I got it from somewhere). As I stated earlier, it's very easy to test for immunity, it's just easier to get the shot.
Vaccines used thimerosal as a preservative, thimerosal is a different mercury compound.
Bah, mercury is mercury, like sodium is a highly reactive metal, chlorine is a highly-toxic gas, and sodium chloride is a combination that's even worse.
One big difference is that in the US vaccinations require multiple individual trips to the doctor which cost a fortune for those not on health insurance.
Whereas in Australia it is provided free by the government. And for schools, the nurse comes around and just jabs all the kids. Cheap and efficient.
This is the right answer.
It's not uneducated parents that are the problem. It's a lot of middle-class mothers who are totally convinced by the pseudo-science and rubbish that's peddled on the internet and by "Wellness" gurus. Australia seems to be infested with them.
Someone has just been hammered for this.
The Paleo Diet is alive and well here, pushed by a chef who somehow has become a dietary-science expert and made a mint from pushing books that contain dangerous pseudo-diets.
We also seem to be very susceptible to charlatans spruiking special-cancer treatments that do nothing but give false hope, drain someone's bank account and leaves them dead quicker.
First off, I completely agree about your point with so-called "wellness" gurus and other charlatans like David "avocado" Wolfe. These people are doing more to increase sickness and disease than most wars in the last 50 years.
However the Paleo diet has some science behind it, a high protein, low carbohydrate diet has been shown to be beneficial for weight loss and muscle gain. Older Australians like myself knew it as the CSIRO diet before it got hipstered into "paleo". its a diet designed for weight management.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
In my experience it's not necessarily uneducated parents. Uneducated parents, if they have access to a pediatrician, are apt to follow his or her advice. It's educated parents who question, and the miseducated ones question and come up with bad answers.
Uneducated is the wrong word. Ignorant parents are the problem.
Having lived in developing nations, parents (and we're talking as young as 16 here) dont have second thoughts about vaccinations because they remember seeing these debilitating diseases in their childhood and in all likelihood, knew people who died from them. Now we're talking about people who rarely received more than a grade 3 or 4 education. In highly developed nations, people my age (mid 30's) grew up in an era when vicious child diseases were extremely uncommon. Few people my age knew someone disabled from polio. The worst we had to worry about was a few days off from Chicken Pox or the dirty kid passing on nits.
Never having to face such diseases combined with a culture that celebrates stupidity and disdains intelligence has created an environment where some people are utterly convinced that their ignorance is worth more than decades of medical research. Anti-vaxxers shouldn't be called ignorant and stupid and unapologetically so. We "fat shame" but are so reluctant to "stupid shame", something is fucked up with out society.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
Those "some cases" wind up being a significant proportion of the children in pre-school. For the reasons I mentioned already, that socialization and early education is vital. Even for those of us who were older, and perhaps wealthier, childhood tutoring was one of the best educational aids we could get for children without relatives who were delighted to play and teach and share knowledge.
Also, unlike contracting the disease, getting the vaccine doesn't risk giving it to several others before you (or they) even know you have it.
This is simply not true. There have been documented cases where children who had no prior history with the disease infected other children after being vaccinated.
From the CDC. That article was about Pertussis not measles but it isn't too hard to find measles cases if you look.
I believe you mis-read that. What it actually says is that vaccinated children may on occasion pick up a wild strain of the disease and become an asymptomatic carrier for a brief time. It does not say anything about a vaccinated child passing on the vaccine strain of the disease.
The old polio virus did carry some small risk of contagion, but we don't use that one now.