Slashdot Mirror


Norway Plans to Build the World's First Ship Tunnel (newatlas.com)

Norway is planning to build the world's first ship tunnel through the country's Stad peninsula, which is home to harsh weather conditions that often delay shipments and cause dangerous conditions for ship crews. The proposed tunnel would enable ships to travel through the peninsula in safety. New Atlas recently interviewed Stad Ship Tunnel Project Manager Terje Andreassen about the project: NA: We'd usually expect a canal to be built for this kind of purpose, so why a tunnel? Because in this case we are crossing a hill which is more than 300 meters (984 ft) high. The only alternative is a tunnel. From a maritime point of view this is still a canal, but with a "roof." NA: How would you go about making such a large tunnel -- would you use a boring machine, for example, or explosives? First we will drill horizontally and use explosives to take out the roof part of the tunnel. Then all bolts and anchors to secure the roof rock before applying shotcrete. The rest of the tunnel will be done in the same way as in open mining. Vertical drilling and blasting with explosives down to the level of 12 m (42 ft) below the sea level. NA: How much rock will be removed, and how will you go about removing it? There will be 3 billion cubic meters (over 105 billion cubic ft) of solid rock removed. All transportation from the tunnel area will be done by large barges. NA: What, if any, are the unique challenges to building a ship tunnel when compared with a road tunnel? The challenge is the height of this tunnel. There is 50 m (164 ft) from bottom to the roof, so all secure works and shotcrete must be done in several levels. The tunnel will be made dry down to the bottom. We solve this by leaving some rock unblasted in each end of the tunnel to prevent water flowing in.

Assuming it does indeed go ahead -- and with the Norwegian government having already set aside the money, this seems relatively likely -- the Stad Ship Tunnel will reach a length of 1.7 km (1.05 miles), and measure 37 m (121 ft) tall and 26.5 m (87 ft) wide. It's expected to cost NOK 2.3 billion (over US$272 million) to build and won't actually speed up travel times, but instead focuses on making the journey safer. Top-tier architecture and design firm Snohetta has designed the entrances, and the company's early plans include sculpted tunnel openings and adding LED lighting on the tunnel ceiling.

138 comments

  1. Conversion typo by MonoSynth · · Score: 4, Informative

    300 meters is 984 feet.

    1. Re:Conversion typo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How much is that in libraries of Congress?

    2. Re:Conversion typo by stealth_finger · · Score: 1

      300 meters is 984 feet.

      or 1.49 Furlongs

      --
      Wanna buy a shirt?
      https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
    3. Re:Conversion typo by arglebargle_xiv · · Score: 4, Funny

      For those who don't speak Norwegian, I've had the story translated into approximate Swedish as follows:

      Nurvey's must hezerduous sheepping ruoute-a pesses iruound zee-a cuountry's Sted peninsuola und hersh lucel veezeer meuons deleys und duongeruous cundeetiuns fur sheep cruos ire-a a reguoler ouccuorrence-a. Un imbeetiuous pluon ieems tu sulfe-a zees by buoildeeng zee-a vurld's furst sheep tuonnel ouff uny signiffeecuont size-a durectly thruough zee-a peninsuola, inebleeng sheeps tu trefel in seffety. Ve-a recently interfiuoed Sted Sheep Tuonnel Pruject Muoneger Terje-a Undreessee-a ibuout zee-a pruject. Bork Bork Bork!

      Not sure where all the sheep references came from, my translator is from Alingsås.

    4. Re:Conversion typo by OzPeter · · Score: 1

      300 meters is 984 feet.

      I'd love to know how this "typo" was produced. TFS looks like a simple cute and paste from TFA, yet the TFA has the correct number in it.

      NA: We'd usually expect a canal to be built for this kind of purpose, so why a tunnel?

      Because in this case we are crossing a hill which is more than 300 m (984 ft) high. The only alternative is a tunnel. From a maritime point of view this is still a canal, but with a "roof."

      It's almost as if the error was deliberately introduced.

      --
      I am Slashdot. Are you Slashdot as well?
    5. Re:Conversion typo by crow · · Score: 4, Informative

      No. 300 meters is 1000 feet. Don't add significant digits.

    6. Re:Conversion typo by deKernel · · Score: 0

      I can't believe you have not been modded up as "Freaking Hilarious".

    7. Re:Conversion typo by SeriousTube · · Score: 2

      Or 3.171e-14 light years.

    8. Re:Conversion typo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      probably because it's not "Freaking Hilarious".

    9. Re:Conversion typo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So what's that in cubits?

    10. Re:Conversion typo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No. You are incorrectly applying the concept of precision:
      1. You are assuming a measurement precision to only 100 meters. I’m pretty sure that technology exists to measure to a greater precision than that.
      2. The 300-meter figure is a specification, not a measurement, implies precision (usually expressed as a tolerance, which in the case of this design is probably at least three orders of magnitude less than 100 meters).

      Therefore, the trailing zeros are definitely significant digits. If we knew what the tolerance of the design was, you might even be able to say that there are more significant digits after the decimal point.

    11. Re:Conversion typo by crow · · Score: 1

      The phrase in question is "crossing a hill which is more than 300 meters high." It reads as a general observation, not as a specification, so I'll disagree in this case. I will grant, however, that you're correct that you can't assume the number of significant digits simply because the number happens to end in zeros.

  2. They need a beacon! by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

    Set it to Haste 2, and get a large chest of unbreakable 3, efficiency V diamond pickaxes!

    --
    She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
  3. Better than it sounds by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Sure, having boats go through the tunnel is badass as long as it's not to the tune of "it's a small world after all", but things get even more interesting when we consider that tunnels of that scale will be exactly what we need to deploy the giant robots when the alien monsters come by.

  4. Hope they get their measurements right... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    300 meters != 384 feet

    1. Re:Hope they get their measurements right... by jandersen · · Score: 1

      300 meters != 384 feet

      Depends on who you are - I saw this guy in circus once; I don't think it would take more than one of his feet to make up 1 meter.

  5. By far not the first ship tunnel by patrick.kursawe · · Score: 2

    ... just the first BIG ship tunnel as stated in TFA. For the first ship tunnel in Europe, they are a few centuries late: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    1. Re: By far not the first ship tunnel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're right, but, to be pedantic that example you show is only 8 meters high so that would be a boat rather than a ship tunnel.

    2. Re:By far not the first ship tunnel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chirk_Tunnel

    3. Re:By far not the first ship tunnel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The thing that bothered me about the interview is, I could have sworn there already was a modern scandinavian canal tunnel big enough for ferries in existence, but I couldn't find any evidence of it.

    4. Re: By far not the first ship tunnel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      This one is/was a bit bigger https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rove_Tunnel

    5. Re:By far not the first ship tunnel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      /. click-bait heading? Never!

    6. Re: By far not the first ship tunnel by IrquiM · · Score: 2

      It's probably the same tunnel. They've been planning it for a long time, and i don't think this is not the first time it's been on /.. However, now the money to build it is being made available.

      --
      This is blinging
    7. Re: By far not the first ship tunnel by IrquiM · · Score: 1

      Typo... No double negative intended. That's what you get for trying to change a sentence instead of just writing a new one.

      --
      This is blinging
    8. Re:By far not the first ship tunnel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    9. Re:By far not the first ship tunnel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A canal is not the sea. A canal boat is not a ship.

    10. Re:By far not the first ship tunnel by aliquis · · Score: 1

      ... just the first BIG ship tunnel as stated in TFA. For the first ship tunnel in Europe, they are a few centuries late: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      Mean-while in Sweden:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

    11. Re:By far not the first ship tunnel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It could be - if it went to sea.

    12. Re:By far not the first ship tunnel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Usually a ship is a large oceangoing thing. A canal boat is no ship, not even a small one. Are there any actual examples of ship-tunnels out there?

  6. seems cheap by gravewax · · Score: 3, Interesting

    considering the scale of this project I am surprised the cost is only US$272 million, has technology to do this advanced that far or are the Norwegians just very efficient. hell a lot of large buildings cost considerable more than this

    1. Re:seems cheap by Stephan+Schulz · · Score: 5, Insightful

      considering the scale of this project I am surprised the cost is only US$272 million, has technology to do this advanced that far or are the Norwegians just very efficient. hell a lot of large buildings cost considerable more than this

      Maybe they are good at doing this stuff, but maybe they use the by now "normal" process for public works: You lowball the cost to get the project going and then argue with the sunk money that you need to finish it at 3 times the expected price. If the tunnel is worth 272 million, it should still be worth 272 million to finish it after the first 200 million have been spent. After all, the money is gone, but the tunnel will still be the same, and half a tunnel has very limited use cases. Lather and repeat...

      Compare the F-35 development or Germany's Berlin Brandenburg Airport.

      --

      Stephan

    2. Re:seems cheap by Esteanil · · Score: 2

      considering the scale of this project I am surprised the cost is only US$272 million, has technology to do this advanced that far or are the Norwegians just very efficient. hell a lot of large buildings cost considerable more than this

      The ore mined as part of building the tunnel is expected to defray some of the cost.

      --
      I'm a dreamer, the world is my playpen. But hey, I'm a serious person, I can't dream all the time.
    3. Re:seems cheap by dbIII · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The F-35 is not normal and is a very obvious symptom of overt government corruption IMHO. Lockheed is "special" - hookers and blow for the right people "special". It's so "special" it would make a Chinese Communist official laundering what he's siphoned off at Macao blush.

    4. Re:seems cheap by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Norwegians has a lot of experience building tunnels due to the mountainous terrain. The number of road tunnels (for efficient transport as opposed to scenic routes) led to the mock slogan "Tourists - come see Norway - from the inside"

      Almost any whole-day roadtrip in Norway will take you through quite a few tunnels, unless you explicitly plan around them. As some claustrophobics do.

    5. Re:seems cheap by CeasedCaring · · Score: 1

      Not much need for political pork in Norway.

    6. Re:seems cheap by gravewax · · Score: 1

      Ahhh that makes more sense then, otherwise the price seems ridiculously cheap as the movement of the rock/earth alone at that price would mean less than 10 cents a ton which just doesn't sound possible for even the most efficient of operations.

    7. Re:seems cheap by gravewax · · Score: 1

      yes I know, I have been to Norway many times, still doing such an operation at less than 10 cents a ton for the movement of materials alone seems insanely cheap, unless as the other responder says the ore from the tunnel offsets the cost and the 272 million is just the extra they have to throw in.

    8. Re:seems cheap by pr0t0 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Could be. It could also be that in Norway, if you send out an RFP, the companies that respond are capable of doing the work.

      In the United States, if you send out an RFP, companies will respond that are actually unable to do the work but are happy to outsource it to someone else and add some percentage to the cost for the trouble. In fact, there may be times when the only companies even considered are ones that are incapable of doing it. As part of "The Fleecing of America" series on NBC, there was this coverage regarding the Hurricane Katrina clean up effort:

      Here's an example of how it worked: The Ashbritt company was paid $23 for every cubic yard of debris it removed. It in turn hired C&B Enterprises, which was paid $9 per cubic yard. That company hired Amlee Transportation, which was paid $8 per cubic yard. Amlee hired Chris Hessler Inc, which received $7 per cubic yard. Hessler, in turn, hired Les Nirdlinger, a debris hauler from New Jersey, who was paid $3 per cubic yard.

      That really happened, and I believe (based solely on the greed and ineptitude I witness daily) it continues to happen on most/all large-scale public works projects in the U.S. I don't know if that happens in Norway or not. If the tunnel was built in the U.S. using the example above, given an actual cost of building the tunnel at $272M, then the amount paid by the tax payers would be over $2 Billion. So that may be why it seems so low.

      --
      I'm sorry, but your opinion seems to be wrong.
    9. Re:seems cheap by Salgak1 · · Score: 1

      Ore ? Nothing in the article about any ore in the tunnel path. Of course, you could always gravel the tunneling output: gravel is used universally in construction, and would provide at least some payback for expenses. . . .

    10. Re:seems cheap by Dorianny · · Score: 2

      considering the scale of this project I am surprised the cost is only US$272 million, has technology to do this advanced that far or are the Norwegians just very efficient. hell a lot of large buildings cost considerable more than this

      Simply blasting and moving rock by barge is not all that expensive. Of the original 5.25 Billion cost estimate for the Panama Canal expansion, nearly $3 Billion was set aside just for the Locks and they are largely responsible for the disputed, $1.7 Billion cost overrun as well. In traditional automotive tunnels, a large part of the budget is for connecting infrastructure to existing road networks as well as Ventilation and Fire Suppression systems, all of which is not a concern with this project

    11. Re:seems cheap by SharpFang · · Score: 3, Informative

      Norwegian are efficient like hell in building tunnels.

      When motorways were built in Poland, a factoid made rounds: 1km of motorway in Poland costs as much as 1km of tunnel through sheer rock in Norway.

      --
      45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
    12. Re:seems cheap by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      considering the scale of this project I am surprised the cost is only US$272 million, has technology to do this advanced that far or are the Norwegians just very efficient. hell a lot of large buildings cost considerable more than this

      Maybe they are good at doing this stuff, but maybe they use the by now "normal" process for public works: You lowball the cost to get the project going and then argue with the sunk money that you need to finish it at 3 times the expected price. If the tunnel is worth 272 million, it should still be worth 272 million to finish it after the first 200 million have been spent. After all, the money is gone, but the tunnel will still be the same, and half a tunnel has very limited use cases. Lather and repeat...

      Compare the F-35 development or Germany's Berlin Brandenburg Airport.

      That's because voters don't understand "sunk costs". Sunk costs have no bearing as to whether a project should continue.

    13. Re:seems cheap by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I know someone who's in need of (nice) materials to build a great, beautiful wall ;-)

    14. Re:seems cheap by DrXym · · Score: 1

      Maybe blasting a mile long tunnel in a straight, horizontal line through rock without worrying about a city over the top is a relatively straightforward operation. Biggest issue I guess would be digging out the ends and disposing of the rock somewhere.

    15. Re:seems cheap by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The fun part is that some of the contractors are set up solely to satisfy the various preferences built into federal law. So you might have a one person shop owned by someone that triggers various federal preferences that does nothing but mark up the work and pass it on.

    16. Re:seems cheap by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That $272 million figure is hopelessly optimistic IMHO. In fact it is so low that I'm a little concerned that this is some kind of scam. If this ever gets built it will definitely cost more than that. They're talking about boring an oversized hole through over a mile of solid rock and then installing all of the necessary ventilation and making the whole thing navigable by large ships.

      For comparison, the artificial canal part of the Panama Canal is about 10 miles long, and cost about 6 billion in today's dollars to build, and they didn't have to bore a hole through a mountain.

    17. Re:seems cheap by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      they are moving over 3 billion tons of material, even the best most efficient large scale mining operations in the world can't do that for that price, and that is before you factor in doing any of the tunnels construction. consider the large mining dump trucks that take a few hundred tons per load, if you were using them they would have to be working at a cost less than $20 a load.

    18. Re:seems cheap by rochrist · · Score: 1

      Also, see the Bergen-Oslo railway.

    19. Re:seems cheap by Shinobi · · Score: 1

      It's connecting two sides of a peninsula. Barges will carry quite a few loads, or, if setup properly, load straight into cargo ships

    20. Re:seems cheap by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      still requires cranes, earth moving equipment, men and a shit ton of fuel to run it all. no way in hell are you doing that even by barge at only 10 cents a ton. If you have a barge that carries a 1000 tons it means each load with men, machines and fuel can't cost more than 100 dollars. This includes loading and unloading and has zero allowance for actual tunnel construction work that has to happen, more likely the figure would have to be closer to 50 dollars, it just is not possible.

    21. Re:seems cheap by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      disposing of 3 billion+ tonnes of rock even if straightforward is not cheap. Basically at the quoted figure you would need to be shifting each ton for less than about 5 cents, never heard of any mining or earth moving operation that can even come close to that, hell that can't get even close to 10 times that figure.

    22. Re:seems cheap by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

      Unless, of course, it cost more to move the aggregate (gravel/ sand mix, for mixing with cement to make concrete) to it's destination than the stuff is worth. And there are a *lot* of aggregate deposits in Norway, thanks to all those glaciers and their nice efficient water flows for sorting the aggregate by size. Blasting debris typically has a very wide range of grain sizes - from boulders to dust - which hinders it's use for making concrete.

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
  7. First, except all the existing ones. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I remember my military service. We had a huge tunnel complex for boats... Maybe they mean civilian tunnel?

    1. Re:First, except all the existing ones. by Shinobi · · Score: 1

      I think they mean in the sense of an actual route, not just storage/maintenance underground docks.

  8. Probably a good investment by Kjella · · Score: 3, Informative

    Because of all the fjords any land road needs lots of tunnels, bridges and taking long detours inland, so travel by sea makes a lot of sense. Stad has been a major chokepoint because it's very exposed and has an underwater topology that creates huge waves, blocking all north-south traffic in bad weather. The value of reliability is hard to properly get into an economic model, but you probably wouldn't use a way to get to work that only got you there 95% of the time. This would allow you to rely on sea traffic being far more punctual than before all year long.

    --
    Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    1. Re:Probably a good investment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So many problems that could get solved by just waiting for the weather to calm down... Storms rarely last more than 24h.

      Instead of this, let's blast a mountain and build a tunnel! Yay economy.

    2. Re:Probably a good investment by Shinobi · · Score: 2

      I think an example is in order to highlight this:

      Fresh fish is sent by rail through Sweden, along the coastal rail route on the east, from the northern parts of Norway to Oslo in the south. Because that's faster than doing it along their own railways or highways.

    3. Re:Probably a good investment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ship tunnel for the same reasons as road tunnels, lower tranportation delays. A delay costs. Delaying all north-south shipping for a day costs a lot. Government builds this with tax money, taxes on the increased profits alone should pay for this in time.

    4. Re:Probably a good investment by aliquis · · Score: 2

      I think an example is in order to highlight this:

      Fresh fish is sent by rail through Sweden, along the coastal rail route on the east, from the northern parts of Norway to Oslo in the south. Because that's faster than doing it along their own railways or highways.

      Also because "why do it yourself when you can have a Swede do it?" / all the rich Norwegians. ;D

    5. Re:Probably a good investment by stealth_finger · · Score: 1

      Because of all the fjords

      Oh, how I pine for them.

      --
      Wanna buy a shirt?
      https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
    6. Re:Probably a good investment by Shinobi · · Score: 1

      Actually, in this case this has nothing to do with it. It's just faster to have the norwegian trains go through Sweden, even when it travels along our east coast

    7. Re:Probably a good investment by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      The way I see it, you've got lots of tall mountains and lots of deep fjords. So why not just dynamite all the mountains, fill up the fjords, and turn Norway into Holland so you can cycle everywhere?

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    8. Re:Probably a good investment by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Because that's faster than doing it along their own railways or highways.

      What I want to know is how that can be cheaper than building a port, and a smaller tunnel for a train. That's a lot of rock to remove.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    9. Re:Probably a good investment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also because "why do it yourself when you can have a Swede do it?" / all the rich Norwegians. ;D

      The Norwegians are always taking advantage of the Swedes (because it's so easy). The Norwegians recently sold Sweden 500 used septic tanks. After they finish refurbishing them, Sweden plans to invade Finland.

    10. Re:Probably a good investment by Shinobi · · Score: 1

      They already have the ports. With a tunnel for trains, you'll eventually also end up building bridges etc.

    11. Re:Probably a good investment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because of all the fjords any land road needs lots of tunnels, bridges and taking long detours inland, so travel by sea makes a lot of sense.

      I blame Slartibartfast.

    12. Re:Probably a good investment by aliquis · · Score: 1

      The Norwegians are always taking advantage of the Swedes (because it's so easy). The Norwegians recently sold Sweden 500 used septic tanks. After they finish refurbishing them, Sweden plans to invade Finland.

      Maybe we could use them for mass-deportations.

      "We come in/with peace!" .. ;D

    13. Re:Probably a good investment by zarr · · Score: 1

      Because, on average, Norway is completely flat.

    14. Re:Probably a good investment by aliquis · · Score: 1

      Speculative chain who does what for whom:

      Norwegians use Swedes.
      Swedes use Poles.
      Poles use ... Romanians?
      Romanians use animals.

      I never really see what's the problem with such an outcome except in the case of the animals because they haven't chosen to agree upon it. But I know some have a problem with it.

  9. Autonomous Ships? by saibot834 · · Score: 0

    Why not use autonomous ships on the dangerous passage instead? Autonomous ships are expected in the next few years, even before autonomous cars. Granted, this would not solve the problem of transporting passengers safely, but it would mean much less concern for cargo shipments.

    That being said, a ship tunnel sounds like a cool idea.

    1. Re:Autonomous Ships? by Shinobi · · Score: 2

      Because, as you say, it doesn't solve the passenger issue, and passenger routes are fairly common along the norwegian coast, due to much shorter routes than with strictly land-based transportation.

    2. Re: Autonomous Ships? by IrquiM · · Score: 3

      Losing an autonomous ship still means losing a ship. On a plus side, tourism!

      --
      This is blinging
    3. Re:Autonomous Ships? by swb · · Score: 2

      Most boats down to even 10 meter recreational vessels already have pretty good autopilots, often integrating cartography, bathymetry and radar, but they don't always work that well in close approaches due to shifting channels, local currents and tides.

      Most ports have professional pilots that bring large ships into harbors because expertise is needed in those local features, and they might also require tugs, too, for precision movement.

    4. Re:Autonomous Ships? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why not use autonomous ships on the dangerous passage instead?

      Because it is not only about human lives. Shipping is also about money, nobody want to take the occational loss of an autonomous ship & valuable cargo - even if no humans are harmed. Then there is the negative effects on the environment with shipwrecks leaking fuel oil & smashed-up cargo into the sea.

    5. Re:Autonomous Ships? by arglebargle_xiv · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Why not use autonomous ships on the dangerous passage instead? Autonomous ships are expected in the next few years, even before autonomous cars.

      Only by people who are living in technology la-la land like the authors of the cited article. They're proposing transoceanic cargo vessels with no crew, because as everyone knows the only thing the crew needs to do is click OK for a mid-Atlantic course correction and the rest of the time they're sitting around doing nothing, since a ship runs itself and deals with every eventuality automatically.

    6. Re:Autonomous Ships? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because if you're shipwrecked it would be a real bummer to watch an autonomous ship sail right by, (or over) you.
      No crew = no lookouts and no rescue boats with men in them to haul you out of the water.

    7. Re:Autonomous Ships? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why not use autonomous ships on the dangerous passage instead? Autonomous ships are expected in the next few years, even before autonomous cars.

      Only by people who are living in technology la-la land like the authors of the cited article. They're proposing transoceanic cargo vessels with no crew, because as everyone knows the only thing the crew needs to do is click OK for a mid-Atlantic course correction and the rest of the time they're sitting around doing nothing, since a ship runs itself and deals with every eventuality automatically.

      If nothing goes wrong, then you don't need a crew. The crew is there for when things go wrong.

      Kind of like the auto-pilot of a plane: it can generally take care of everything in cruise and a good portion of landing, but pilots are there for when things go sideways.

    8. Re:Autonomous Ships? by dfm3 · · Score: 2

      Did I just hear the whooooosh of an autonomous ship sailing by?

    9. Re:Autonomous Ships? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If nothing goes wrong, then you don't need a crew. The crew is there for when things go wrong.

      On a ship the crew also performs the part of maintenance that can be done while the ship is underway. Ships don't make money while not moving, so the time spent in port on/off-loading or in a shipyard for maintenance is kept to a minimum.

    10. Re:Autonomous Ships? by jittles · · Score: 1

      Did I just hear the whooooosh of an autonomous ship sailing by?

      It was more of a "splish" or a "swish" sound than a "whooooosh"

    11. Re: Autonomous Ships? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Did I hear someone mention tugger?.

      It's time for russel crowes fighting around the world

    12. Re:Autonomous Ships? by John.Banister · · Score: 1

      Automated control doesn't prevent a boat from getting slapped around by rough water. When the boat pivots around center of mass, causing the deck to drop faster than the freely falling objects that weren't tied down, this can cause undue stress to the transported cargo. Second, one thing that's nice about staying on an inside passage is that the nearby land blocks wind. When you're bucking into the winds around a low, making two knots while running the engines as hard as you usually do making twelve knots (even if there's software that prevents overspeeding when the prop catches air), generally the extra time and fuel consumed makes staying inside much more sensible and economical even though it's less direct. Also, are you suggesting that the Norwegian government buy a automated replacement boats for everyone North of the Stad peninsula? A bet a lot of other Norwegians would want new replacement boats, too. $272 million is starting to seem less and less expensive.

  10. Not the first ship tunnel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    For exemple the Rove Tunnel in France : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rove_Tunnel
    2.3 billions m3 build in 1927

    1. Re:Not the first ship tunnel by Max_W · · Score: 1

      Paw Paw Tunnel was built in 19th century. It has got a very good design, as there is alo a pedestrian (nowadays also cycling) trail near the boat channel in the tunnel:
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
      https://www.nps.gov/experience...

    2. Re:Not the first ship tunnel by jandersen · · Score: 1

      Not to mention the many tunnels on the canal network in UK (which dates back to the 1700s), but I think that is perhaps stretching the point.

    3. Re:Not the first ship tunnel by mobby_6kl · · Score: 1

      They should build a submarine tunnel, then.

    4. Re:Not the first ship tunnel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or the Malpas Tunnel, build in *1679*: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malpas_Tunnel

    5. Re:Not the first ship tunnel by Verdatum · · Score: 1
      AHA! I figured it out! In this context, there's a difference between "ships" and canal transports that just go along a canal (barges). This is the first tunnel intended to convey seagoing vessels. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/....

      Perhaps in Norwegian, this designation is a little less confusing.

    6. Re:Not the first ship tunnel by OpenSourced · · Score: 1

      I'd call that a barge tunnel, or a canal tunnel, but not a ship tunnel. Connecting two open-sea areas for use of seafaring ships, is really something new.

      --
      Rome taught me patience and assiduous application to detail. Virtues which temper the boldness of great, general views.
  11. This has been planned for a very long time! by Terje+Mathisen · · Score: 5, Interesting

    As Kjella writes in another post, this particular area is the single worst weather hurdle along the entire Norwegian coast, and we do have a lot of coastline:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    I.e. significantly longer than the US even when you include Alaska, this meant that sea travel was by far the most important transportation network here at least since the vikings.

    It is somewhat telling that the coastal route around the country (where the Hurtigruten goes between Bergen and Kirkenes, taking 11 days for the round trip) is considered "highway 1", our road system numbering therefore starts with highway 2.

    The english wikipedia article about this project is somewhat short but still pretty good, mentioning that the first proposal came in 1874.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    Terje

    --
    "almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"
    1. Re:This has been planned for a very long time! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As a Swede having been to Norway plenty of times and driving zig-zag thru it, the Norwegians are masters at building roads where no road is suppose to be built. Tunnels and bridges galore, and long ones. After a while a 3km tunnel isnt anything special at all. But norwegians are horrible att building roads that are on easy ground or would be really usefull. Plenty of big important roads have places without two seperate driving fields, ie one for each direction. Its a freaking nightmare perticulary on summers with traffic increase. Lorry or Bus from both sides? One have to back up. With plenty of cars and probably with caravans behind too. Bus drivers and taxi drivers are not happy about it. Usually if the option exist, the smaller road going over a mountain are faster than bigger roads with more traffic. The big prestige projects have been built, not smaller more important parts. Two personal hate objects to avoid if possible: RV13 south from Eidfjord, and E6 between Trondheim and Mo-i-rana (go thru Sweden and back in to Norway, longer but faster and way less frustrating).

      This ship tunnel is both important and a prestige project. It will be built.

    2. Re:This has been planned for a very long time! by Anubis+IV · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I.e. significantly longer than the US

      I couldn't help but following your link after you said that, since it's one of those, "I knew Norway had a lot of coast, but THAT much?!" moments for me. I did want to point out that the numbers even at the link you shared are a bit incongruous, since they seem to vary quite a bit from source to source based on how they define a coast or shore (e.g. do they include freshwater or inland bodies of water? if they're measuring the actual coast (as opposed to the boundary of jurisdictional waters), are they measuring to a particular depth of tidal water, or are they measuring the shore as it's represented on a map? are overseas territories included in the country's total? ). For instance, here are some official numbers, most of which were pulled from the Wikipedia article you linked (I also grabbed numbers from other sources I've linked):

      Norway's coast:
      25,148 km (World Factbook) or 53,199 km (World Resources Institute) or 125,225 km (Statistics Norway)

      USA's coast:
      19,924 km (World Factbook) or 133,312 km (World Resources Institute) or 153,646 km (NOAA)

      All of which is to say, while I can't say with any certainty which has the longer coastline (not that it matters), it's indisputable that the overall point you were driving at--that Norway has a LOT of coast (particularly given its size) and that it impacts things in all sorts of ways that most of us may be unaware of--is both correct and inherently fascinating. Thanks for sharing the info!

      ADDENDA:
      In case you're curious about the massive differences in the numbers...

      The World Resource Institute's dataset was designed to be used for comparisons between countries. They talk at that link about the difficulty in producing useful numbers and in comparing numbers from different sources. To get around most of the issues they identified, they used a vectorization of the coastlines at a constant resolution (to ensure that no country benefitted from having a more detailed mapping than other countries) and didn't include overseas territories. As such, theirs are useful approximations for the purpose of comparisons and are relatively accurate as far as these sorts of measurements go, but for coastlines with lots of nooks and crannies (e.g. Norway's), their approximations may have a greater degree of error than they would for locations with simpler coastlines.

      NOAA and Statistics Norway are, I believe, both official organizations, but I wasn't able to find much about the methodology that either used. NOAA mentions that it includes outlying territories, so that immediately inflates their numbers a bit. They also include the shorelines of the Great Lakes, which makes some sense given that they are boundary waters between the US and Canada, but some people may question their inclusion. Either way, it's probably safe to say that both NOAA and Statistics Norway are working with highly detailed maps when making their measurements, so they're likely to be closer to the true numbers than the World Resource Institute's, though it's difficult to compare them without adjusting for differences in methodology.

      As for the CIA World Factbook, they don't list their methodology in a place I could find, but it's pretty clear from their numbers for landlocked countries that they're not including inland bodies of water. Given how much lower their numbers are than everyone else's, I'd wager they were calculated at a low resolution, or else they may simply measure at a set distance from the shore, effectively decreasing the resolution of their measurements significantly.

      At the end of the day, it looks like the US' coastline may be slightly longer, but the country also benefits from being significantly larger. Ba

    3. Re:This has been planned for a very long time! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Post written by the society for nationalist geography penis rulers.

    4. Re:This has been planned for a very long time! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Basically Norway's coast has a higher fractal dimension than the US.

    5. Re:This has been planned for a very long time! by Anubis+IV · · Score: 1

      Yup, by around an order of magnitude from the looks of things.

    6. Re:This has been planned for a very long time! by Anubis+IV · · Score: 1

      If what you took away from my post was that it was nothing more than a dick measuring contest, despite my statements to the contrary, that's a shame. I don't care which is larger. I was simply blown away at the notion that the coastlines may in any way be comparable, and I wanted to share my exploration of that topic with others here who might find the numbers are methodologies involved similarly fascinating.

      Regardless of whether he's correct or not, I'm incredibly glad that Terje Mathisen made the claim he did, simply because it prompted me to discover something remarkable about Norway that otherwise I would've been unaware of, in much the same way that the point of my last post apparently went right by you.

  12. Tjing tjang tjing nutillej by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They build da tunnel instead of da bridge, so da trolls have no place to live!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnqH29dgPao

  13. Why the F-35 (X-35) won.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Had a lot to do with how the Boeing X-32 looked. It didn't have the nickname "Monica" for nothing.

  14. First ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    First of what ?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Q3uHv_DRbA

    1. Re:First ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      First of what ?

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Q3uHv_DRbA

      Look up the word ship ;)

  15. Meters to ft error... by bios10h · · Score: 1

    300 meters is not 384 ft. It's about 984 ft.

    1. Re:Meters to ft error... by crow · · Score: 2

      And they're both wrong because the original has only one significant digit, so the conversion shouldn't add false precision. The correct conversion is "about a thousand feet."

    2. Re:Meters to ft error... by mike1086 · · Score: 1

      How many elephants standing end to end is that?

  16. Over complicate much? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why not just blast the 'roof' portion as well? why risk cave-in, or added cost for regular 'roof' maintenance?

    1. Re:Over complicate much? by Mascot · · Score: 1

      I can only speculate, but since there are a number of cities on that peninsula, that would mean building a bridge as well. Also, blasting out all that extra mass would not be cheap either, and I expect the walls would still need to be secured to avoid the risk of ships being pelted by boulders.

      Even if none of those considerations were financially relevant, it's unlikely that such a visual impact on the generally pristine Norwegian nature would have been approved. You're talking about a nation that'll build a tunnel under a fjord rather than a bridge over it, because bridges be ugly.

    2. Re:Over complicate much? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not a "roof". It's a fucking mountain. See link for aerial photos.

    3. Re:Over complicate much? by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      It's a 1000-foot high mountain. That's a lot of rock.

  17. ship tunnel old idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The C&O Canal originally surveyed by George Washington has a tunnel. You can walk the towpath through one that is over 100 years old any day of the week.
    "The Paw Paw Tunnel is a 3,118-foot (950 m) long canal tunnel on the Chesapeake and Ohio Canal (C&O) in Allegany County, Maryland. Located near Paw Paw, West Virginia, it was built to bypass the Paw Paw Bends, a 6-mile (9.7 km) stretch of the Potomac River containing five horseshoe-shaped bends."

  18. Raised Sea levels? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What's the clearance assuming our sea levels rise over the next few years? Can they easily raise the roof once they've fortified it?

  19. Throwaway comment -- please ignore by bensafrickingenius · · Score: 1

    Not a single Jules Verne reference?!?!?!?

    --
    I am not left-handed, either!
    1. Re:Throwaway comment -- please ignore by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Slartibartfast built all the fjords, so a tunnel should be no trouble at all.

    2. Re:Throwaway comment -- please ignore by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

      Not a single Jules Verne reference?!?!?!?

      That would be Iceland.

    3. Re:Throwaway comment -- please ignore by bensafrickingenius · · Score: 1

      Title refers to "World's First Ship Tunnel" -- not *Norway's* first ship tunnel. I just meant that Captain Nemo would beg to differ.

      --
      I am not left-handed, either!
  20. Nice project but not world's first. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    World's first ship tunnel. But what world? The modern world? I ask because some 25 kilometer from where I live there is a ship tunnel that was build in the middle ages. It connected two larger rivers and made east - west travel possible, opening the energy, wood and iron markets of the east for the western coastal cities who traded with the rest of the known world. It is still a tourist attraction after 1,200 years. And this wasn't the only one that was build back then in the 'dark ages', but it is the oldest surviving 'ship tunnel'.
     
    There are still plenty of undiscovered man made tunnels in the area. In the 70's an underground pagan temple was uncovered. This temple was used well into Christian times to escape from the harsh persecution of radical Christians when caught with practicing polytheism. To reach the temple, one had to travel 6 kilometers through an underground maze. Only people who knew the way would reach the temple.

    1. Re:Nice project but not world's first. by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Do you have citations for these? The maze thing is especially interesting.

      But your Middle Ages "ship tunnel" sounds like a canal tunnel to me, not a ship tunnel (capable of passing a modern seagoing ship). Canal tunnels have been around for centuries; Britain is full of them. Yours is certainly older than those, but no one said this proposed Norwegian tunnel was the first-ever tunnel for watercraft.

  21. It Would Be Better To Use A Lock System. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They should lock the ships up one side of the mountain and then let them slide down the other. Weeeeeeeeeee

  22. There's no earthly way of knowing by amstrad · · Score: 1

    I hope they plan a good light show inside the tunnel. And audio, it must have audio:

    There's no earthly way of knowing
    Which direction we are going.
    There's no knowing where we're rowing
    Or which way the river's flowing.
    Is it raining?
    Is it snowing?
    Is a hurricane a blowing?

    Not a speck of light is showing
    so the danger must be growing.
    Are the fires of hell a glowing?
    Is the grisly reaper mowing?
    Yes! The danger must be growing
    For the rowers keep on rowing. And they're certainly not showing
    any signs that they are slowing!

  23. Brunel did this... by TheConway · · Score: 1

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... Brunel did this in 1838, though smaller. How is this the world's first?

    1. Re: Brunel did this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I should go back to the top to help but I am lazy.

      Ship, the word, is specific. Boats and barges are not ships. There are many specific names, from ferry to cargo ship. The latter is a ship, the former is... I am not actually sure what certain ferries get called, but that isn't important.

      I didn't click your link. I'm pretty certain that I don't need to. This is for ships. Ships are big and go in the ocean. Liners are not ships, I don't think. Troop carriers are ships, I think. Either way, this is a legitimate first.

      I am obviously not a maritime expert but I do know this much to be true from my time on a boat as a Marine.

  24. World's first? by nospam007 · · Score: 1

    Well, in France, they built one in 1775, with a length of 3333 Meters and it's still used to this very day.

    https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    1. Re:World's first? by Verdatum · · Score: 1
      Apparently, that's a barge-tunnel, not a ship-tunnel. This is the first tunnel that will pass seagoing vessels. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      But yeah, this confused me to the point of bothering to look this up.

  25. Did they first check with by SpaghettiPattern · · Score: 1

    Slartibartfast?

    --

    I hadn't the slightest objection to his spending his time planning massacres for the bourgeoisie... (P.G. Wodehouse)
  26. Big dig by stabiesoft · · Score: 2

    So the boston big dig is 3.5miles so about 3 times the length. Even in the beginning it was estimated to be 2.8billion (in 1982 dollars). So here we are in 2017 with a project 1/3 the size estimated to cost 1/10 the price. And the big dig went on to cost 14 billion. Its why I laugh when I hear local leaders saying they will put I-35 in a tunnel for 2 bil. Or why I laugh and continue to laugh at the clusterF they are doing on MOPAC. Its going to be 2 years late at least and some crazy amount over budget. Or the flood tunnel they put in to beautify downtown that went over budget by 3X and is still not complete.

    1. Re: Big dig by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      boston big dig, MOPAC, what are you talking about?

    2. Re:Big dig by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      The problem is obvious: the US needs to hire Norwegian companies to do this work.

    3. Re:Big dig by olau · · Score: 1

      There's a huge difference between boring through dirt and clay, and blasting your way through rock. The latter material holds itself, so basically you just need to blast away and remove material, and you're done. With the former, there's a much more complicated process of putting in concrete reinforcements and dealing with underground water and whatnot.

    4. Re:Big dig by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

      So the boston big dig is 3.5miles so about 3 times the length.

      The Boston big dig has to avoid collapsing buildings above and beside the dig. That is somewhat less of a problem on any random hillside in Norway.

      Is that dig still going on? I remember it being a thorough-going row last time I was in America - '90 or '91.

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
  27. Water Levels? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Oh, drilling a tunnel between two huge bodies of water?
    And what will happen if the water level is different on both sides?
    Will it turn into a fucking water slide with a huge sucking sound?

  28. Ob by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

    Er ner, I herv brerken the terp of the merst erf!

    Yer sherd herv werterd fer the terd ter ger ert.

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  29. "...sculpted tunnel openings" by coughfeeman · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I really hope they don't pass up the opportunity to make it look like an ancient artifact of Norse mythology; like straight up Gates of Argonath shit.

    Or at least make it totally metal, like it was designed by Dethklok.

    Come on Norway, gotta represent.

    1. Re:"...sculpted tunnel openings" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They've got a classic piece of music that all ships should blast at max volume on every speaker they've got as they enter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

  30. i look forward to the documentary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Unique or large scale engineering projects like this make great documentary subjects. Hopefully they have a film crew with them at many times throughout construction.

  31. Freddy Cannon by Latent+Heat · · Score: 1

    The proper use of a tunnel allowing boat passage is in one of those amusement park rides where you would take your date.

  32. Civic works by AlanObject · · Score: 1

    Some people might say Norway is boring.

  33. Can you ship the dirt to Finland? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    1e9 m3 would be snuggly enough to fill the baltic sea between Finland and Estonia.

  34. Elon Musk' Boring company. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Expect tweet from Elon Musk: Our Boring company can make that tunnel in 100 days or we'll do it for free!

  35. Climate change... minor catastrophe? by billdale · · Score: 1

    ??? No one has mentioned the obvious? Should the estimates of sea level increases be accurate, which I believe them to be, in a few years, the only way for that tunnel to still be of use is if they gouge out much of its roof.