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Safe Harbor Cost the US Music Industry Up To $1B in Lost Royalties Per Year, Study Finds (musicweek.com)

An anonymous reader shares a report: For the first time, researchers have quantified the "value gap" and its impact on the US recorded music industry. A study published yesterday (March 29) by Washington, DC-based economy think tank the Phoenix Centre For Advanced Legal And Economic Public Policy Studies attempted to calculate how much revenue the recording industry loses from the distortions caused by the safe harbor provisions. Entitled Safe Harbors And The Evolution of Music Retailing, the study was conducted by T. Randolph Beard, George S. Ford and Michael Stern who applied "accepted economic modelling techniques" to simulate revenue effects from royalty rate changes on YouTube. It showed that if YouTube were to pay the recorded music industry market rates, similar to what other streaming services pay, its economic contributions to the sector would be significantly bigger. The premises used by the Phoenix Centre economists was that, according to the music recording industry, YouTube evades paying market rates for the use of copyrighted content by exploiting the Digital Millennium Copyright Act's "safe harbor" provisions, which allow to post creative content online in good faith and remove it if rights holders so require. Using 2015 data, the Phoenix Centre found that "a plausible royalty rate increase could produce increased royalty revenues in the US of $650 million to over one billion dollars a year."

26 of 194 comments (clear)

  1. Wait - WHAT? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Half the music posted on YouTube is by the musicians for promotion.
    So they are stealing from themselves?

  2. My how have the tables turned by OrangeTide · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The musicians are stealing from the record companies.

    --
    “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
    1. Re:My how have the tables turned by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      And the record companies, as usual, are claiming the "loss" of something they never had in the first place.

    2. Re:My how have the tables turned by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Bingo.

      Also the problem with RIAA specifically, is that it does not consider licensing.

      Eg, if I upload random song from my mp3 player to Youtube, and tick the "monetize" box. I don't have rights to that song, so I should not be allowed to make money off of it, but who actually does? The recording artist? (Eg see the *VEVO channels), The recording company directly? Google makes maybe a penny per 1000 views. If Google was paying RIAA rates for playing of music, youtube would have no music on it what-so-ever, because google has devalued advertising to the point where nobody makes anything from advertising revenue, and now the people who use music as background noise is inconsequential.

      The RIAA is barking up the wrong tree. They've simply over-valued music in non-contractually agreed to rates.

      From the study:
      " Industry data indicates that playing a song a subscription music service pays the recording industry about $0.008 per play,
      while the same play on YouTube offers compensation of only about $0.001"

      Yeah, and Youtube doesn't own that content and hasn't contractually agreed to pay the recording industry at those 0.008 rates. This is because people uploading the video aren't putting up a deposit to cover licensed use of the music, and the RIAA doesn't know if something has been licensed privately or not.

      So I take issue with the argument that these are "losses", the quality of using Youtube as a poor mans Spotify is terrible. If the RIAA really wants to get a handle on this issue, they should upload their entire back catalog to youtube, complete with instructions on how to buy and license the track, and then subsequently have youtube take down all non-fair use (eg straight uploads of the music, not music videos) copies off youtube. That solves the entire problem of Youtube being a piracy haven, by letting the RIAA get 100% of the revenue instead of the shitlord pirates.

    3. Re:My how have the tables turned by gmack · · Score: 4, Informative

      Youtube already has a fix for this problem. Just use their Content ID sytem

      that lets you decide how to deal with other people using your music. You can block, mute, or monetize the infringing video.

    4. Re:My how have the tables turned by sneakyimp · · Score: 4, Interesting

      >Looking back, was there anything your record label did that you couldn't have done yourself? The song was featured in a flim that had a wide release in many theaters. Our record label paid the recording costs -- it was done by some really good engineers and mixed by Tom Lord-Alge. I'm a decent engineer myself (ahem, self promo) but there's no way I could achieve that kind of sonic quality. And the promotion we received was worth a LOT. I could never afford that kind of promotion. >As for the losers on youtube ripping you off, it sucks that you're a little guy. The big guys have the resources to search and get YouTube to take that stuff down. You can track down and stop some guy in Cyprus from using your music, but he'll just go rip off some other small artists, he's not going away. I'm not saying you should accept the futility of it and do nothing, but that you may have to accept that what you have to do for yourself probably won't change things in the grand scheme.

      I hope you'll acknowledge the impact the safe harbor provision has on little guys like me. Our label was a little guy too and has since folded as a functioning record label. I've filed a lot of DMCA notices. I can't put a song up on youtube without some bot scraping the audio and offering MP3 files for download. It's whack-a-mole from hell. If there was no safe harbor provision, I could sue a company (e.g., Youtube) that lets the cypriot asshole post my music and profit from it. Then, they might be motivated to help me profit from my music instead of criminals. I'm pretty sure you'd still get your music affordably. Removal of the safe harbor provision would not prevent you from making playlists of your favorite songs on youtube. I'd still put my music on youtube. It'd have no impact whatsoever on iTunes or Spotify or Rhapsody, etc. Safe harbor provision sucks IMHO.

    5. Re:My how have the tables turned by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I don't make music, but I write novels. I've seen my novels on pirate websites (search for my name and pdf and they pop right up). It doesn't concern me in the slightest, and I'll tell you why.

      Possible consumers of my novels fall into three buckets - those that like my stuff and are willing to pay me for it, those that like my stuff but don't pay me for it because I'm charging too much/don't allow them to shift my book to their desired device/some other reason, and those who like my stuff, but aren't willing to pay a penny for it under any circumstances. There's absolutely nothing I can do to move people from that third group to another group. Nothing. But by trying to hinder that third group, through DRM for example, I can chase people from the second group into the third. So those people who regularly download my books are lost to me regardless, but that doesn't mean I've lost forever. Maybe they become a big enough fan through their pirated books that they decide to pay for some someday. Maybe they can't find all my books pirated and are forced at some point to actually break down and buy one if they want them all. Maybe they like it enough to mention it to someone who then goes and buys one. So many possibilities, and as a relatively unknown author, if nothing else, it serves as free publicity. Publicity is gold - Forty percent of people who read my first novel come back for more.

    6. Re:My how have the tables turned by sneakyimp · · Score: 2

      hmm... stealing. Taking something that doesn't belong to you. So, are they taking credit for your music or are they creating links to what you already put on line so that you still get credit?

      They are taking music from a CD -- or scraping it directly from youtube, etc., they are uploading it -- not for personal enjoyment but to monetize it on youtube. Note that I've already uploaded it there myself.

      What specifically are they taking that belongs to you?

      I think I know where you are headed with this. I believe they are taking my right to profit from my music. It's not fair use IMHO, it's a cynical appropriation of something they did not create for the purpose of profiting.

      Obviously they can't take what you haven't made available. The assumption that people 'should' do often times varies depending on country and culture.

      Obviously. And if I don't make my music available? Aside from the crushing loss the world will suffer (sarcasm), what would be the point in making any music. I don't want to encourage these (rather poor) attempts at philosophy, but I would point out that if artists did not make their art available, then art itself is likely to disappear--at least in any public or social sense.

      'Copywrite' is a type of 'virtual' property the exits only because of certain western laws. It has a long and complicated history and I'd say that it is at more then debatable weather there is a philosophical / natural right to control what happens to the art you create once it has left your hand.

      First of all, it's called Copyright. Second, as a once-and-future recording artist, I'm abundantly aware of the implications of releasing recorded music into the world in a really florid and extravagant way that a lot of folks will never understand. Releasing music is an experience fraught with anxiety, excitement, potential embarrassment, etc. Art theory has a lot to say about this kind of thing. I'm well aware of it. But rather than getting lost in the philosophical weeds, I'd like to focus on the safe harbor provision.

      Copywrite exists as a kind of carve out by western government to promote the arts and industries by allowing them to control the sails of copies of their art as a way of generating income. Historically no such 'right' existed before the 19th century.

      Again, it's Copyright, not "copywrite." And yes, I know this too. You can see the relative lack of copyright/trademark protection in places like China where everyone was creating counterfeit iphones and apple stores that had no connection whatsoever to the Apple Corp that we all know and love/hate. While it is certainly arguable that copyright law is a mistake, I think it might be worth comparing the cultural output of nations that protect copyright versus those who don't. I might be culturally myopic and maybe I'm totally missing the next big thing, but I'm not really aware of any tremendous musical movement emanating from countries who do NOT respect copyright. And as long as we're talking philosophically, do you feel that it is moral for someone to profit from someone else's labor when they did nothing at all to assist? When people wax philosophical over copyright and fair use and such, this often gets overlooked. I strongly feel that some dickhead in cyprus ripping CDs and uploading songs to the internet not for enjoyment but to sell them is an asshole -- especially if the music is already there and available for a free listen on youtube or SoundCloud or something. Remove of safe harbor provision would introduce market conditions that would discourage this type of bottom feeder.

      So, if someone is not in the united states and not subject to it's laws saying they are 'stealing' by not following laws that don't exist in their country is kind of like saying the Chinese government impinges on your freedom of speech by not allowing you

    7. Re:My how have the tables turned by sjames · · Score: 2

      As for the label taking all the money and me getting none, that is alreayd happening now. I fail to see how that would get any worse.

      It won't. It can't. But it won't get any better either. Safe harbor didn't make that happen.

      Things are considerably more complicated in that in my case. Oversimplifications like this are kind of insulting, and not especially helpful IMHO.

      I'm not intending to insult you, but the facts as you presented them show that some how, some way, the label got legal first dibs. That is not youtube's fault and it's not because of safe harbor.

      The guy from Cypress shouldn't be making money off of the work, but apparently he isn't why you're not making any money from it.

  3. Another Bullshit Study From the Music Industry by locopuyo · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Someone watching a youtube video does not equate to a lost "sale" from a streaming service. The youtube viewer would have never paid to listen to your song.

    1. Re:Another Bullshit Study From the Music Industry by BronsCon · · Score: 2

      That's not even entirely true. I own a respectable CD and audio cassette collection, I subscribe to multiple streaming services, and I've even bought a number of music downloads through various industry-backed services. I still put together YouTube music playlists because, sometimes, it's just more convenient. Much of what appears on those playlists is music I already own; all of it is music I have access to through the various streaming services I pay for.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    2. Re:Another Bullshit Study From the Music Industry by RelaxedTension · · Score: 2

      Someone watching a youtube video does not equate to a lost "sale" from a streaming service. The youtube viewer would have never paid to listen to your song.

      What they are saying is that if the video with that copyrighted music was properly registered as that copyrighted work, Youtube would be paying a royalty for it or monetizing it for the record company/artist. Since it was uploaded by a user and not registered as the copyrighted work, Youtube does not pay for it until after it is discovered. It is not saying these were lost sales.

      What they did not seem to mention was the knock-on effect of purchases made by people that heard the music in those unregistered videos that would likely bring down that $1 billion amount quite significantly.

    3. Re:Another Bullshit Study From the Music Industry by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You wouldn't pay for the Youtube content, and Google doesn't necessarily have the money to pay (it's allocated elsewhere). You paid for the CDs and for Spotify and whatever else.

      You're not a lost sale; you're a successful sale.

  4. I posit that by BronsCon · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If YouTube were to pay the recorded music industry market rates, similar to what other streaming services pay, its economic contributions to the sector would be 0. This would be so because YouTube would simply not allow copyright music on its service.

    --
    APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
  5. Lack of Good Music Costs Them $2 Billion Per Year by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Lack of Good Music Costs Them $2 Billion Per Year

  6. Re:Study was paid for by music industry... by OrangeTide · · Score: 4, Informative

    I've bought numerous albums on bandcamp because I stumbled onto them on YouTube.

    Now I understand that Bandcamp isn't likely included in the concerns of mainstream record companies. But I do believe that I am an active consumer that is spending money in this industry, and that I am not "stealing" billions of dollars.

    --
    “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
  7. Math? by fishscene · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Has anyone done any Math/economic modeling of how much the music industry is worth if everyone payed them "properly"? By my terrible estimates, it's worth more than the combined GDP of the entire world.

  8. On the other hand... by NormalVisual · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ...I wonder how many billions of dollars excessive copyright terms have cost the U.S. citizenry directly. Half the Beatles are dead, for crying out loud, and it's been almost 50 years since their last album was released. There's no way copyright can encourage them to record another album.

    --
    Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
    1. Re:On the other hand... by Ghostworks · · Score: 2

      They actually did press "The Beatles: the Copyright extension album".

      https://www.theguardian.com/mu...

      Basically, if they didn't publish the couldn't claim the extended copyright, so they published rather than let them become free.

      There is something to be said for the way copyright manages to keep some popular collections alive and well-tended, rather than rotting away in a cellar. (There is also something to be said for the way copyright manages to keep less popular collections buried and rotting away in a cellar.)

  9. Who are these guys? by jandrese · · Score: 3, Informative

    I have never heard of the Phoenix Center for Advanced Legal & Economic Policy Studies so I went to the their website. Unfortunately I can't find anything talking about their funding sources. However, they do have a prominent endorsement on their homepage from Ajit Pai, which is a substantial red flag.

    Propublica sadly only has their funding lumped together as "contributions", which doesn't help.

    --

    I read the internet for the articles.
    1. Re:Who are these guys? by jandrese · · Score: 4, Informative
      Update: I found the closest thing to a mission statement I could find buried in a wall of text on page 17 of their 2013 tax return.

      Although the Phoenix Center does not meet the safe harbor test for public support (33-1/3%) in 2013, it believes that the following facts and circumstances support the organization's continuance as a public charity. The Phoenix Center has grown and developed since its inception to become a voice for consumer welfare by promoting free markets, competition, and individual freedom and liberty.

      In other words, its exacta what everyone thinks. This is yet another one of those corporate mouthpiece "think tanks" that release studies to push a corporate agenda.

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
  10. i have not bought any music in years by FudRucker · · Score: 2

    because my values changed, i guess paying utility bills, buying food, clothing, and car insurance is more important, and besides that i rather just listen to the radio because it also includes local news and weather, and i rather search youtube for amateurs that upload their music because they do it as a labor of love not because of any profit motive, to hell with the music industry, the music industry is dying because that is exactly what it is "A for-profit industry" and when it comes to spending money music is not high on the list of most people's priorities, you know, stuff like food, rent, clothes, insurance, etc...

    --
    Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
  11. copyright no longer serves its purpose by uncoveror · · Score: 2

    Article I, Section 8, Clause 8 of the United States Constitution, known as the Copyright Clause, empowers the United States Congress: To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries. Pop music and Hollywood movies aren't science and the useful arts. They are only frivolous entertainment. Also, "limited times" meant 14 years, renewable once for 28 in the original 1790 copyright law. Now, with extensions passed every 20 years to keep Steamboat Willie out of the public domain, it is virtually perpetual. This locking up ideas asp property is no less a form of censorship than trying to suppress them, and does not promote progress at all.

    --
    The Uncoveror: It's the real news.
  12. Re:What matters... by oldmac31310 · · Score: 2

    Hah. Sure. Mp3.com owes me $103.00. What is the point in making sales when you don't get paid?

    --
    http://www.acetonestudio.com
  13. The logic, as I understand it by argStyopa · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Snickers candy bars are priced at $1, sold 20 million units last year.

    If we'd priced them at $5 each, we'd have made $100 million, meaning we lost $80 million underpricing Snickers!

    Anyone see the faulty logic there?

    --
    -Styopa
  14. Re:The key phrase...industry market rates by BenFranske · · Score: 2

    Mea culpa, you're correct that radio stations do pay licensing fees, however when converted to a per song play basis it seems to be remarkably less than what Internet companies are paying.