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If Humble People Make the Best Leaders, Why Do We Fall for Charismatic Narcissists? (hbr.org)

Numerous studies and real-life examples show humble, unassuming people as leaders improve the performance of a company in the long run. The humity, exuded by these leaders, can be contagious. Yet, instead of following the lead of these unsung heroes, an article on Harvard Business Review argues, we appear hardwired to search for people who exude charisma. The article looks into why such is the case: One study suggests that despite being perceived as arrogant, narcissistic individuals radiate "an image of a prototypically effective leader." Narcissistic leaders know how to draw attention toward themselves. They enjoy the visibility. It takes time for people to see that these early signals of competence are not later realized, and that a leader's narcissism reduces the exchange of information among team members and often negatively affects group performance. It's not that charismatic and narcissistic people can't ever make good leaders. In some circumstances, they can. For example, one study found that narcissistic CEOs "favor bold actions that attract attention, resulting in big wins or big losses." A narcissistic leader thus can represent a high-risk, high-reward proposition.

40 of 339 comments (clear)

  1. Simple math... by prince+hal · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Because we're idiots.

    1. Re:Simple math... by Baron_Yam · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Because we're primates that evolved living in small family groups, and our social instincts developed before we were intelligent enough to understand their shortcomings.

      And now that we do have these relatively fantastic brains... most people don't bother to try.

    2. Re:Simple math... by Rick+Schumann · · Score: 2

      A person can be smart; people (in the most inclusive sense of the word) can be very, very dumb.
      $PEOPLE can be fairly easily hacked; appeal in the right way to their emotions or instincts, and you effectively bypass their higher reasoning capabilities and have them act entirely on hardwired instincts alone. For instance, people in a sufficient level of distress (whether caused by real circumstances, or perceived circumstances), presented with a 'savior', will put themselves entirely in that persons' hands.

    3. Re:Simple math... by Joce640k · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Nah, we're stupid.

      Millions of people play the lottery, thinking "somebody has to win!" while completely ignoring the fact that the lottery companies make huge profits.

      Ditto casinos: If the wallpaper is gold, there's free drinks and the croupiers are earning wages then you think you're going to win some money in that room? Really....?

      All a politician has to do is sell a bigger dream than the other politicians. There's enough stupid around that they'll eventually win.

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    4. Re:Simple math... by wizkid · · Score: 4, Interesting

      There's some truth to this. But on this last election cycle, Bernie is probably pretty close to a the humble side, not the wacko side of the scale. If the dem's handn't shot him down and let him win. I don't think we'd have trump in the big house.

      There are a very large number of people out there that don't want a bunch of gangsters like the clintons in office.

      --
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    5. Re:Simple math... by MightyMartian · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This is how I read it as well. A lot of neurological and psychological machinery evolved in a considerably different habitat than most humans now live. We're wired to be hunter-gatherers; small and generally fairly mobile groups where leaders were far closer to those that they lead. If you look at other primates, and in particular our closest relatives the Great Apes, you can see how a combination of physical strength and bravado are usually what make for an alpha male; basically the tribal leader. But in those relatively small groups, challenges to the leadership are relatively frequent, so that a shit leader isn't going to last very long at all.

      Civilization has rewritten the rules, in no small part because what's good for a tribal hunter-gatherer society like our ancestors or like chimpanzees, just doesn't scale up at all. But our every instinct, written over millions of years of hunter-gatherer society, remains attracted to charisma (and physical appearance as well). We really are still just hairless apes; big brains, but a lot of social instinct that gets in the way, and it's going to take a lot longer than the mere 10,000 years or so that we've been developing urban civilization to evolve a different psychological toolkit.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    6. Re:Simple math... by Joce640k · · Score: 2

      Yep. The real problem is that at the end of the day we're only presented with gangsters and conmen to vote for.

      Of the 300+ million people in the USA, how did the vote come down to those two?

      (Simple: It's the people in suits who decide who we get to vote for)

      --
      No sig today...
    7. Re:Simple math... by Austerity+Empowers · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Because we're idiots.

      No we're not, we're just ignorant. The charismatic narcissists tell a good story, they tell us they can fix it, they tell us they understand what's wrong, they relate well to us to the point we think they also see what we see and they can fix it. That's politics, but these same people succeed in business to for the same reason, except they merely need to swindle a considerably smaller group of people.

      The guy who tells the truth, that we have bad problems and they may not be entirely fixable, or that the middle class must necessarily bear the lions share of the tax burden, or that many of our perceived problems are more about not making the huge profits from WWII reparations that our parents benefitted from, and instead having huge debt from various police actions since then which we shouldered the costs for, that while there is a better way to live our country is largely ruled by a small group of wealthy self-interested pricks that we cannot effectively stop all at once, but must work collectively, both nationally and internationally to ensure they such people do not have a place on earth in the future.

      Do you want to vote for that guy? He's probably right, but his story is depressing and he's telling us uncomfortable things.

    8. Re:Simple math... by Gr8Apes · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I guess it depends on your standards. If your standards are low enough, then all of humanity is really smart.

      "Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." - George Carlin

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    9. Re:Simple math... by sjames · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It depends on why you're gambling. If you go to see a few shows, enjoy a few comped meals and drop a pre-defined amount of cash, it might actually be a rational decision. Perhaps even a bit of idle dreaming about getting rich. If you go expecting to come home with more than you left with, you are, indeed, a fool.

      For the lottery, some see it as a cheap daydream. That's just a matter of personal preferences. If it's your retirement plan, that's a problem.

    10. Re:Simple math... by sims+2 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I don't remember that guy being on the ballot.

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    11. Re:Simple math... by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 2

      and drop a pre-defined amount of cash, it might actually be a rational decision.

      This is where a lot of people fall down though. Back in college there was a group of us who would go regularly to the local casino and we did beat the house (we did the same thing as the MIT students were a few years previous at a much smaller scale). Inevitability someone one would want to go along because they thought they could win big. My first response was how much money are you willing to lose. They would always respond back with none and I would tell them that they shouldn't go to the casino then. If they still decided to go I would always hope they would lose not because I wanted to be a dick but because far too often if they would win a reasonable amount, for a college student, they would go crazy and think that is how things are.

      --
      Time to offend someone
    12. Re:Simple math... by Solandri · · Score: 4, Interesting

      There's another factor you're failing to consider. While it'd be nice if we could spend years researching every topic before making a decision, frequently (and arguably the majority of the time) that is simply not an option. There's value in how quickly a decision can be made. Often, a mediocre quick decision can yield a better outcome than a well-researched, well thought-out decision which takes months or years to arrive at. This is why militaries organize themselves into ranks and chains of command - because in combat, the situation changes so quickly that if you spend hours or sometimes even minutes trying to completely understand the it, your conclusions will be obsolete by the time you reach them. You have to make a decision quickly based on the incomplete and imperfect information you have at that moment.

      That's why people are attracted to charismatic and confident leaders - because their ability to make quick decisions frequently has value. And once a decision has been made you can only compare to a hypothetical (what if a different decision had been made?). And confidence is great at swaying people away from thinking the hypothetical is better than the reality.

      You're actually using a classic coping mechanism for those not on the winning side of a decision - denigrating the decision maker by claiming this quick-decision process does not scale up at all. It scales up just fine. It's just that as you scale up, the number of decisions which need to be made increases. So even though the percentage of decisions which are better served by well thought-out research remains the same, the number of them also increases.

      If we really want to progress as a species, we have to avoid falling for either extreme of this argument. Certain decisions are better made quickly, even if there's incomplete or imperfect information. Other decisions can wait and are better if made after careful and thorough research. Both methods have merit. The test of our intelligence is whether we recognize them and treat them appropriately. Or whether we'll blithely apply a one-size-fits-all decision-making strategy just because we happen to like or dislike charismatic people.

    13. Re:Simple math... by MightyMartian · · Score: 2

      Absolutely. One only has to look at the US Constitution, which was largely written by large land holders with fundamentally agrarian interests. While the Industrial Revolution was taking off in Britain, and there were nascent industries in the American Colonies, by and large they were still fundamentally agrarian societies. That tension between industrial and agrarian lifestyles was just beginning when the Constitution was put together, and reached the boiling point in the Civil War. Non-mechanized agriculture requires a large labor pool, and very often an indentured one. Slavery was the very emblem of pre-industrial agriculture, and it's destruction was the hallmark of the victory of industrial society over agrarian society. The more swiftly industrializing North could far more easily dispense with the need of indentured workers (though not entirely, despite the mythologizing of the Union), whereas the still almost classical agrarian Southern society was still addicted to the drug of cheap, indentured labor.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    14. Re:Simple math... by postbigbang · · Score: 2

      It goes far more deeply than your explanation, I believe.

      Your "limbic" brain is a decision maker and reacts to fear and lust and more basal stimulus. The thinking brain, call it the pre-frontal cortex, takes a lot of work to use-- to think and consider alternatives and consequences.

      The narcissists are very good at appearing to use sound decisions, but they are sound decisions *for then* and not necessarily for you. They create reactive sound bite communications and even NLP communications to create an Us vs Them dichotomy that becomes appealing. Then they heap lots of disjointed, but seemingly correlating "facts" to make Us appear sooooo much better than Them, so as to allow vilification of Them. They use this in ways that polarize and aid their power and praise for seemingly being so brilliant. Rinse. Repeat.

      --
      ---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
    15. Re:Simple math... by MightyMartian · · Score: 2

      I'd rather put it that certain classes of problems require quick solutions, even where an optimal solution cannot be worked out. So yes, I agree that some situations demand immediate decisions, and then you try to figure out how to make that solution work in the medium term. By the same token, the "decision paralysis" overanalysis is certainly a grave risk where a crisis is approaching. Firemen are a classic example of where you have a few rather basic rules, along with an understanding of the physical properties of fire, and you use them to make rapid decisions, some of which may be suboptimal, or ultimately outright wrong. However, when coming up with fire codes, one does have some luxury of time to come up with reasonable rules that prevent deaths, and maybe even prevent firemen from having to make dangerous snap decisions to begin with.

      When it comes to government, as I say elsewhere, you're usually dealing a vast society unto itself, with its own inherent momentum and rules, and changing that system requires a very good understanding of motivations, systems of control and accountability, so when you get some populist who declares "I'm going to throw it all out and make it better", you're not dealing with someone who is taking a calculated risk, as a general or a firefighter might, you're dealing with someone who is simply replacing competency and knowledge with hyperbolic chest thumping.

      A general may have to make snap decisions, but if they're not decisions based on knowledge of tactics, in other words they're not just random commands made simply so there are commands going down the chain of command, then that general is likely to doom his army. Even snap decisions have to come with some ability.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    16. Re:Simple math... by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 4, Interesting

      We're wired to be hunter-gatherers; small and generally fairly mobile groups where leaders were far closer to those that they lead.

      While I'm sure you're right about some of this, I think perhaps an even bigger effect is reinforcement through social norms. What are the "myths" of our modern societies? When we tell stories of "heroes," what are they like?

      And from fairy tales and fables through our modern blockbuster movies, we tend to emphasize the powerful, charismatic leader who takes risks, instead of the quiet, stable dude who actually gets stuff done day-to-day without seeking the limelight.

      Sure, we get the occasional "inspirational" story of the humble, quiet dude who finally gets recognition after laboring in obscurity for decades. But most of the "humble" types we see in fiction only become main characters when they start to act in unusual ways that bring attention, perhaps even becoming literal "superheroes" in much recent fiction. The standard superhero trope of the quiet guy who evolves special powers to save humanity is perhaps the ultimate beta-male fantasy: you skip all the social factors, physical prowess, etc. that get you attention and power and instead just are granted the power directly.

      Part of this is the nature of drama, too. Do we really want to read a book or see a movie about a guy who labored steadily in his office for 40 years and contributed to the company through all his quiet deeds? Or do we want to hear the guy make speeches, and have high-profile successes (and failures), and have "drama" as he works his way up?

      Even our news is shaped this way. It's a major factor in Trump's success. He clearly managed to get "free publicity" from news organizations most days during his election. Whether you liked him or hated him, he knew how to draw people's attention (both good and bad).

      Humble people just don't tend to draw that sort of attention -- not in our fiction, not in the news, etc. The closest we get is the occasional story about the value of "introverts" or whatever, but it's not enough. Until our dominant culture celebrates the humble folks in stories, in our news, etc. and acknowledges their superior results on a regular basis, there's no way they'll be valued as much.

    17. Re:Simple math... by Imrik · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Imagine there were a law that you are required to gamble!

      There is such a law, though rather than gambling we call it insurance.

    18. Re:Simple math... by chihowa · · Score: 2

      Absolutely. Looking at all of the candidates offered over the last (how many?) electron cycles, I think that we'd legitimately get better results by randomly selecting a pool of candidates from the general population.

      --
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  2. Logical thinkers vs Emotional thinkers by colin_faber · · Score: 4, Insightful

    As this is something that I've thought about for some time. I believe the big reason here is not that people are stupid, or uninformed, I think it's more a matter of where they fall for the fuzzy decisions in life, either on the more logical side of things or emotional. Generally humble, quiet, non abrasive types tend to not evoke the same kinds of emotional response that you would see with charismatic narcissists. A fantastic example of this was the 2012 presidential election, emotions ruled.

    1. Re:Logical thinkers vs Emotional thinkers by Joce640k · · Score: 4, Insightful

      People are very bad at risk assessment.

      Trump sold the voters on the danger of ISIS and Islam when in reality only a tiny fraction of a percent of the population has ever been killed by them.

      He then proceeded to dismantle the healthcare system with the blessing of his voters despite the fact that millions of people are killed by curable illness every single year.

      Go figure.

      --
      No sig today...
    2. Re:Logical thinkers vs Emotional thinkers by Xyrus · · Score: 2

      Unlike 2016, where clearly logic was the primary driver? Riiiiiiiight.

      People, in general, are ignorant. But Duning-Kruger and various other "I R DA SMART" complexes prevent people from accepting that they're ignorant. A large part of that is due to the fact that ignorance is equated with stupidity and weakness in our society. No one likes to be considered stupid and weak, and it is far easier to stick with your uninformed beliefs than to actively challenge them. Add this to the large inertial mass of apathy in this country and you get what we have now: A failing democracy.

      Democracy fails when the people can't be bothered to educate themselves on important subjects, willfully choose ignorance, and/or let apathy take over. Trump wasn't a surprise or a fluke to anyone paying attention over the past couple of decades. It was an inevitability.

      --
      ~X~
    3. Re:Logical thinkers vs Emotional thinkers by Tablizer · · Score: 2

      And even more fantastic example of this was the 2008 presidential election.

      I thought the 2004 election was such a display. One of the most powerfully emotional debate moments I've ever seen was when W made the case that "I don't care what some people think about the Iraq war, I believe it's the right thing to do in my heart, and that it will eventually bear fruit." (paraphrased)

      While I disagreed with the war, he seemed very genuine in the way he stated it. In the ugly world of tit-for-tat DC politics, genuineness stands out.

      Of course, one can be genuinely flat wrong. But it was a powerful emotional appeal.

    4. Re:Logical thinkers vs Emotional thinkers by Linsaran · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Presidential elections tend to be ruled by emotions rather than logic, because people as a whole tend to be ruled by emotions rather than logic. If humans generally resorted to logic when it came to electing our leaders, the world would be a much more sane place.

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    5. Re:Logical thinkers vs Emotional thinkers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      He then proceeded to dismantle the healthcare system with the blessing of his voters despite the fact that millions of people are killed by curable illness every single year.

      This comment proves that people can be quite ignorant. I am sure that Joce640k is a very intelligent person, but this statement is just plain dumb. Last I checked, Obamacare is still the law. In fact Trump and the Republican leadership can't seem to even convince their own party on how to replace this it, even though that a main reason many of them won their election.

      Logic would then tell you that the millions of people killed by curable illness are actually the fault of Obamacare at this point in Trump's term. Once he gets his changes made, then you will be free to place blame where it is due.

    6. Re:Logical thinkers vs Emotional thinkers by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 3, Informative

      He then proceeded to dismantle the healthcare system with the blessing of his voters despite the fact that millions of people are killed by curable illness every single year.

      The CDC doesn't agree with you, it seems. Our annual deaths from curable illnesses is more like 200K than "millions".

      Pkus there's the whole "dismantle the healthcare system" thing. No, he didn't. he didn't even dismantle the ACA part of the healthcare system. He asked Congress to do so, they didn't....

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
  3. Speak for yourself by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "We" didn't fall for the narcissist. "We" didn't fall for the fake news. "We" weren't all oblivious to the Russia connections. Some of us recognize Hannity, Limbaugh and the like as the entertainers they are, appealing to people's basest instincts, responding to daily requests of the GOP, and accepting advertising dollars from companies linked to Russia.

  4. Trump has charisma? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Who knew. All I see is an orange baboon slinging his own figurative feces at onlookers.

  5. People by mydn · · Score: 2

    NEWSFLASH: People are fucking stupid.

  6. Instinct, not thought by Archtech · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Many analyses fall short because they assume that we think these things through logically. On the contrary, this is an area in which hardwired instincts in the lower, more primitive parts of our brains take over almost completely. And one of the most fascinating things about human beings is how very clever people can be completely sure they are doing something for logical reasons, when in fact they are being driven by blind instinct. (Dr Freud was onto that fact with regard, mostly, to sex; and Dr Adler with regard to power).

    Homo sapiens evolved over at least two million years as a hunter-gatherer, living in groups ranging probably from family-sized to a maximum of perhaps 200 - possibly depending on the density of food sources. Such small groups would be critically dependent on effective and experienced command. Just like other land animals that live in herds, packs or prides, human beings instinctively recognize the vital necessity of social structure in the form of a well-defined pecking order and a universally accepted leader (alpha male or female). It's far better to have a relatively poor but generally accepted leader than no leader, when the group may break up or even start fighting each other. In that case they probably all die, and all their genes are lost.

    So one of history's observations - that people are often very willing to greet and cheer a "man on a white horse" - shouldn't be so surprising at all. And the converse of accepting and supporting the leader is usually hating and fearing outsiders. Unfortunately, this is one of many respects in which our ancient instincts, which served us well as hunter-gatherers, are now extremely counter-survival. (Although it's not at all clear that there is any good solution to the problem of governing human societies larger than a few thousand).

    Here is a good essay on a related topic: http://fredoneverything.org/th...

    --
    I am sure that there are many other solipsists out there.
    1. Re:Instinct, not thought by Archtech · · Score: 2

      There's also this excellent, if somewhat tongue-in-cheek, explanation by the great H.L. Mencken. Not bad prediction 96 years ahead!

      "The larger the mob, the harder the test. In small areas, before small electorates, a first-rate man occasionally fights his way through, carrying even the mob with him by force of his personality. But when the field is nationwide, and the fight must be waged chiefly at second and third hand, and the force of personality cannot so readily make itself felt, then all the odds are on the man who is, intrinsically, the most devious and mediocre — the man who can most adeptly disperse the notion that his mind is a virtual vacuum.

      "The Presidency tends, year by year, to go to such men. As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron".

      - H. L. Mencken (Baltimore Evening Sun, July 26, 1920)

      --
      I am sure that there are many other solipsists out there.
  7. Simple by wickerprints · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The appearance of competence is not the same as actual competence.

    Actual competence is difficult to assess when the outcome measures are subjective.

    Incompetent yet successful people are more likely to be proficient at masking their incompetence through lying and psychopathic manipulation.

  8. Learning new skills by audi100quattro · · Score: 2

    They tell us what we want to hear, not what is right. Public speaking, leadership, campaigning are skills like any other fortunately.

  9. We are poo-flinging apes [Re:Simple math...] by Tablizer · · Score: 2

    To put it another way, we evolved from chimp-like apes and are still merely apes. Just because we can talk and use symbols to communicate doesn't make us non-ape-like. We still collectively follow the shiny red ball at the expense of logic (or a shiny orange ball of fur).

    I see at work almost half of what's done is waste due to lack of planning and office politics. The "leaders" are posturing buffoons who are mostly clueless about the subject matter and easily steered by bullshit-artists. None of the yes-men/yes-women dare offend the leader's fragile ego by introducing reality into the conversation. If and when another alpha-male wannabe comes along to challenge them, it turns into a nasty king-of-the-hill war that drags everything into it.

    I now try to think of work as a jungle safari instead of a place of economic productivity. The first is more fitting and less stressful: you are then not surprised when a poo-flinging fight breaks out, because after all, humans are nothing but animals. I've never seen anybody yell at a chimp, "Why don't you just be rational!?"

  10. Re:why do i feel like by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You feel like that because you have been completely manipulated by charismatic sociopaths to believe that anyone who disagrees with them (and by extension, you) is literally worse than Adolf Hitler.

    Subtle lesson you will never learn: humility isn't about how loud you speak in front of a cheering crowd, it's about whether you value other people and their opinions. You clearly despise your parents, believing that what you read on Daily Kos makes you more aware of reality than their 20-30 years of additional first-hand experience, which shows you have no humility.

  11. Re:Good thing we have a humble leader now... by MightyMartian · · Score: 2

    I'm having a hard time imagining the last US president who could be considered "humble". I think Truman probably was, to some extent (or at least he was a reasonably miserable fellow, a sort of an American version of Clement Attlee), as was Hoover. Washington is portrayed as humble, but I can't imagine a military commander of his ability actually being humble; generals are just not known for their humility, but generals who are bred in war have to be both charismatic and able.

    The problem with democracy is that any would-be political leader has to have those hubristic "alpha" qualities that people, often wrongly, associate with great leaders. The advantage of democracy is that you can get rid of them, although a really bad political leader still will usually have at least one term to screw things up.

    --
    The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
  12. Oh, the humity! by XxtraLarGe · · Score: 2

    The humity, exuded by these leaders, can be contagious.

    That's exactly the problem! Nobody wants to catch humity; it will lead to poor editing skills that will spread to the entire organization!

    --
    Taking guns away from the 99% gives the 1% 100% of the power.
  13. Sheep by McLae · · Score: 2

    Follow me, God has shown the way!

  14. Humility by nehumanuscrede · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It's not that we fall for the narcissistic types, rather the humble among us typically do not seek positions of power.
    ( They wouldn't be very humble if they did now would they ? )

    Our elections are akin to being asked to hammer in a nail, but only given a choice between a screwdriver, a corkscrew or a hacksaw to get it done :|
    They're certainly all tools, but none one of them are really suitable for the task at hand. ( Don't you dare ask for the proper tool. )

    Then, when we're forced to finally make a choice, it's always the same bullshit from both sides of the fence for years.
    " You chose to go with X ! See how poorly it's doing ? It was obviously a poor choice. You should have chosen Y or Z ! "

    The best tools for the job are out there, we're simply not given the option to select one based on how our system is setup.

  15. Re:That "we kill those guys" by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 2

    Humble people may make better business leaders, but that doesn't mean it is true for political leaders, where charisma can help to build political capital and accomplish things. Not all political leaders are charismatic. Some that were not: GHWB, Jimmy Carter, Harry Truman, Herbert Hoover. None of these guys were very successful.