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Google Schools US Government About Gender Pay Gap (cnet.com)

Posted by msmash on from the how-about-that dept.

Google wants the US government to know that it takes gender pay equity very seriously -- and is baffled by the contention that a gap exists at the tech giant. From a report: In responding to allegations lodged by the US Department of Labor that Google systematically pays its female employees less than it pays men, the search giant said in a blog post that employee gender doesn't factor into compensation decisions. Google described the process that it arrives at suggested compensation as "extremely scientific and robust," relying on the employee's role, job level and location, as well as recent performance ratings. What isn't considered in determining pay is whether the employee is male or female -- that information is masked out to those making the compensation decisions, Eileen Naughton, Google vice president for People Operations, explained in the post late Tuesday. "The analysts who calculate the suggested amounts do not have access to employees' gender data," Naughton wrote. "An employee's manager has limited discretion to adjust the suggested amount, providing they cite a legitimate adjustment rationale.

15 of 238 comments (clear)

  1. Pay gap is real, but exaggerated by omnichad · · Score: 5, Informative

    Most of the time pay gap statistics are brought out, they don't seem to compare apples to apples. The average female employee at company A makes less than the average male employee at Company A. And yet lower-paying office roles are predominantly sought out by female employees, which is what brings down that average if you're not comparing equivalent job titles and experience levels.

    1. Re: Pay gap is real, but exaggerated by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Except google refuses to reveal statistics. All they have shown is a power point slide that says "trust us" and we are supposed to trust them? Show us the data if you have nothing to hide.

    2. Re: Pay gap is real, but exaggerated by meta-monkey · · Score: 4, Informative

      And *why* should a random company show its confidential internal data?

      They're applying for government contracts, which is how this whole mess got started. The government says "you have to be X fair to chicks to get contracts" and so they need to show that they are at least X fair to chicks.

      --
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    3. Re:Pay gap is real, but exaggerated by Baron_Yam · · Score: 5, Insightful

      >Men are dumb enough to fall into the trap of the 60-hour work week with no life balance and women seem to not be.

      As a middle-aged career man, I'm marginally qualified to respond to this with authority.

      I WANTED to work those hours at the expense of outside life. I ENJOYED it. A young man is full of enthusiasm and competitiveness. The chance to succeed at something I was told couldn't be done, the challenge of proving I was the best... that was worth more than my paycheque to me.

      Of course I slowed down a bit with time, and now I have a nice, strong dividing line between work and personal life, but I don't regret those early years at all. They were extremely satisfying.

      Maybe that's testosterone, and maybe that's why women don't have that experience as a general rule, but so what? You couldn't have made me slow down and smell the roses and even if you had, it would have LOWERED my perceived quality of life at the time.

      So from some people's point of view I gave up a decade of my personal life in return for a significant career advancement. I'm OK with that.

      More importantly, *any woman can choose to do the same thing*. If they don't, *that is also their right*.

  2. Common Sense calling - Women have babies by randomErr · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Women who do not have children get paid the same or more. But when you have to take several weeks or months off to take care of a child you slow your career. So don't have kids if you want a big pay check. If you want to have the biological and emotional fulfillment of giving birth and raising a child then realize you have to sacrifice your overall income.

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    1. Re:Common Sense calling - Women have babies by randomErr · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I realize that. But look at this from a business's view: Jane is assigned to a 16 month project. She announces that she is pregnant. She will have several doctor's appointments. By the Medical Leave Act I can assume she will gone from 2-6 weeks minimal assuming no complication.

      I now have to train someone to take up the slack while Jane is out, When Jane comes back she will not be working at 100% because of the toll on her body and new medical issues she has. Jane is going to have to come up to speed with the changes on her project. Both her and the child will need further medical time off through out the rest of their lives. If she has another child all of this time lose is compounded.

      If you removes emotion and look at the issue from a reasonable and logical point of view you will see why the average a woman will get paid will never be the same as a man. An individual can easily exceed the average. But babies complicate things and distract from your career.

      Life is a sacrifice. And I appreciate and celebrate women for that sacrifice.

      --
      You say things that offend me and I can deal with it. Can you?
    2. Re:Common Sense calling - Women have babies by Zemran · · Score: 3, Informative

      It does not matter how they feel, what matters is their career. If you break from your client group your career progress stops. That is a fact of life. It is plain stupid to think it is discrimination, it is your choice.

      --
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    3. Re:Common Sense calling - Women have babies by Zemran · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If you look at it objectively the men are unfairly discriminated against as it would totally destroy a man's career if he took as much time off. I can speak from some experience as I was a male single parent but I went into teaching at that point as it was the only way to remain working and get the support I needed. If I had stayed in the private sector I would quite simply have been sacked.

      --
      I love stacking my barbecues in the shed at the end of summer - you can't beat a bit of grill on grill action.
    4. Re:Common Sense calling - Women have babies by swillden · · Score: 3, Informative

      Women who do not have children get paid the same or more. But when you have to take several weeks or months off to take care of a child you slow your career.

      Google offers several months' paid leave to both mothers and fathers, and all are strongly encouraged to take it. In part this is due to competitive pressure -- all the big tech companies are fighting over the same pool of employees and it's a really awesome perk, but it's also quite explicitly an attempt to eliminate this aspect of gender preference. Women who give birth do get a little extra time for "medical leave", but the actual maternity/paternity leave is the same. Oh, and it applies to employees who adopt, too (not the medical part, obviously).

      If you want to have the biological and emotional fulfillment of giving birth and raising a child then realize you have to sacrifice your overall income.

      Not at Google. Oh, I suppose it may slow you a little because the time you're on leave is time you're not doing promotion-worthy things, but in practice it doesn't seem to have any significant effect. I see people with families of all sizes at all levels of the career ladder. That even includes a few quite senior people who take maternity/paternity leave every year. I know one engineer who has had a child every year for six years, and taken all of the leave, and leads a large and important team. I know another who has negotiated a deal with management to accept a 60% salary in exchange for working only three days per week, and also to spread maternity/paternity leave over time, taking one day of it per week, with the net effect of a two day per week work schedule -- and just got a major promotion. That particular engineer is something of a rock star and I'm not sure that sort of deal is generally available (though fractional salary for reduced work schedule is, with management approval). Note that I didn't specify the gender of either of those examples. One is a man and one is a woman; their gender doesn't affect the options available to them.

      As a Google employee, my reaction to the DOL claim was "WTF"? The claim is so utterly at odds with the way Google operates.

      Here's my guess as to how the DOL came to their conclusion: They just looked at average male and average female compensation, without considering job role. Because women are underrepresented in engineering, and engineering jobs are better-compensated than most other categories, the average female compensation is probably lower. That women are underrepresented in engineering is something Google regularly and publicly discusses, and the company has a wide variety of initiatives aimed at improving that situation, mostly by trying to increase the number of women in the hiring pipeline.

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    5. Re:Common Sense calling - Women have babies by phorm · · Score: 3, Informative

      In the USA, maybe. In Canada and other countries both parents are entitled to parental leave.

    6. Re:Common Sense calling - Women have babies by psmoot · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Jane is assigned to a 16 month project. She announces that she is pregnant...

      The other way a manager could look at it is I'm hoping to have Jane around for 5-10 years. This one project may be a hassle but it's only for 16 months. For a project that short, everyone is coming up to speed for the duration of the project. A year from now there will be another project and Jane can be just as effective as anyone else. If I want to hire and develop for the long term, I'll ignore this short term hiccup just like I'd deal if someone who has to take a few months off for a back issue or sabbatical.

      In other words, taking two-four months off is largely noise and should barely have a measurable effect. Yes, in theory it's there but it will be swamped by confounding factors.

  3. So, what you're saying... by computational+super · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ... is that the so-called "gender pay gap" is actually due to life decisions, not rampant sexism?

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  4. On what did Google school anyone? by mcmonkey · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Company accused of bias claims there is no bias. No one got "schooled."

  5. but, muh wage gap- by Gravis+Zero · · Score: 3, Informative

    press the button!

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    Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
  6. We intentionally don't plan to divorce (much) by raymorris · · Score: 3, Insightful

    My ex-wife and I planned for divorce, and surprise surprise we got divorced. My wife and I plan for "the two shall become one, till death do you part, for better or worse" and indeed we've worked through tough times and come out stronger.

    Partly that's related to having our daughter - a decision that we feel like going our separate ways is no longer possible (we'll always be connected, like it or not), and to the extent it's possible, it's not right - I have no right to take away my daughter's father or mother just because I feel like boning some other chick. I've made a COMMITMENT to my family.

    That works for us largely because we look at everything in our marriage, including all conflicts, from the perspective of *we*. If your arm is causing pain, you don't get mad at your arm, you figure out how to heal it. If my foot is giving me trouble, I don't yell at my foot (or cut it off), I care for it. If my wife is giving me trouble, I don't yell at my wife, or divorce my wife, I care for my wife. Probably sometimes you're not sure what to do - perhaps you want to eat cake, but you also want to lose weight. You want to buy a new toy, but you also want to save for a house. You think about these things, basically "discuss them with yourself." We are the same way - sometimes we want this and we want that. We think, discuss, and we decide. We (my wife and I) don't fight and get angry when we have two different viewpoints, anymore that you fight with yourself when you have two perspectives on something.

    That's worked for us all the way to even when we've been attracted to someone else. We have a problem, we've been having inappropriate conversations with someone we find attractive. That's dangerous to us, our family. So how do we address this to protect ourselves from our family being torn apart? If she cheated on me, it wouldn't hurt *me*, it would hurt *her*, our daughter, AND me - it would hurt *us*. So we treat inappropriate conversations as a danger that could hurt us.

    Having said all that, we are aware that divorce happens, and she's going to finish her degree - after she's more clear about what kind of degree she wants. During the roughest part of our marriage, during a mental health crisis, there was a risk that the person going through the mental health issues might do something crazy, and we took some precautions during that time in case we had to seperate. But generally, you tend to get what you plan for, so we don't plan on divorce.