Neuroscientists Weigh In On Elon Musk's Mysterious 'Neural Lace' Company (ieee.org)

the_newsbeagle writes: Elon Musk has set out to change the world with SpaceX's reusable rockets and Tesla's electric cars, and now he plans to change your brain. His new company, Neuralink, will reportedly build delicate brain implants called "neural lace" to help people with neuropsychiatric disorders and to give healthy people strange new mental abilities. But the news announcements about the company contained scant details about what kind of hardware Neuralink might actually build, and what engineering challenges the company will have to overcome in pursuit of miniaturized and safe brain implants. Here, five neuroscience experts describe those challenges, and give hints on what to expect from Musk's neural dust. One of the neuroscientists is Mary Lou Jepsen, founder of the Openwater startup, which is looking for ways to develop a noninvasive BCI for imaging and telepathy. Jepsen was also "an engineering executive at Facebook working on its Oculus virtual reality gear; before that she spent three years at Google X, running advanced projects on display technology," reports IEEE Spectrum. She says that Neuralink will likely face many medical hurdles, even if their process doesn't require splitting open patients' skulls. "The approach as I understand it (not much is published) involves implanting silicon particles (so called "neural lace") into the bloodstream. One concern is that implanting anything in the body can cause unintended consequences," says Jepsen. "For example, even red blood cells can clog capillaries in the brain when the red blood cells are made more stiff by diseases like malaria. This clogging can reduce or even cut off the flow of oxygen to the parts of the brain. Indeed, clogging of cerebral capillaries has been shown to be a major cause of Alzheimer's progression. Back to neural lace: One concern I would have is whether the silicon particles could lead to any clogging."

Comments

You you folks have not watched the SyFy TV .....

[lkroll4565]

.....series Continuum, you need to. This crap's (story that is) is crazy stuff. It should be banned before it's too late for us. :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Re:Elon Musk is . . .

[bill_mcgonigle]

What is it...

https://www.instagram.com/p/BS...

Cereberal Network Variability

[rtb61]

The problem with any direct connection to the brain is variability with neurons networks, entirely unique. Whilst broad cerebral manipulations are certainly doable, fine work is not, think waking and sleeping, happiness and sadness, really broad and dangerous brush strokes because you have no real idea the consequences on fine neuron networking detail. Then there is the extreme danger of hacking, whether corporate or government or just the idiot kid down the street with the wrong software. Even something as relatively safe as a sleep inducer can become very dangerous when triggered at the wrong times ie driving a car.

Easier to tap nerve bundles than the actual brain ie eyes, ears, spinal cord and they are also quite dangerous ie stimulation of data input versus extremes of pain stimulation.

For actual brain input, it would really have to be grown and the user and the system aligned, think useful brain tumour, with the tumour creating the communications links but the tumour also the idea representing the real risk involved.

The biggest problems are; Would the government hack it if they could, yes. Would Corporation hack it if they could, yes. Would individuals hack it if they could, yes. The temptation to hack if for total control, is far to great for it to be done, apart from very limited medical actions, sleeping being the obvious target for simple manipulation and a real warning about the risk ie putting someone to sleep when they are driving a car.

Re:Cereberal Network Variability

[Gravis Zero]

The problem with any direct connection to the brain is variability with neurons networks, entirely unique.

Actually, this is far less of a problem than you think it is. We've already created BCIs that allows basic actions to be made like manipulating a robotic arm without hooking to the circuitry for arms. How did we manage such a thing, well, the person with the BCI implant learned how to do it through practice. There are regions that typical brains have in common and if we tap into those parts, we can learn to truly interface minds with machines.

It's not easy feat and there is a lot of work to be done and breakthroughs to be made but it is possible.

Then there is the extreme danger of hacking

I believe the endgame here is implanted technology. If you connect that shit to the internet, you're implant has failed because you're still dumb a shit. ;)

Re:Cereberal Network Variability

[interkin3tic]

Not "entirely unique" in all areas. Variability is a concern, however it's not like each brain's layout is completely scrambled from one to another. Deep brain stimulation has been around for a while and is showing promise based on targeting the right areas.

There's also nothing that says that this thing would need to be hardwired up in a certain way and if two were inverted, fuck it, it's gone. I assume there would be a training period in which the software (like electronic software) would learn what was hooked up to what.

For that matter, there's plenty of training and learning on the wetware side that could work.

Without real technical details, it's hard to say "This can't possibly work because of X thing that is already known." On top of that, Elon Musk is not known for proposing things that are going to run headfirst into problems one could identify just from a wiki page. I'd assume it's technically feasible.

Then there is the extreme danger of hacking, whether corporate or government or just the idiot kid down the street with the wrong software.

Really? You're going to poo-poo an awesome technology (again, assuming Musk hasn't just totally gone bonkers) based on "brain hacking?" After just saying "we really can't know where stuff will connect with the brain?" Some idiot kid down the street is going to know the wiring of your brain and the backdoors into it better than any neuroscientist does? Because neuroscientists don't know that level of detail. This won't be life-and-death stuff like breathing: your body does that on it's own.

If it had the potential to do something like "press here to cause a seizure," then Musk is going to have a hard time getting that to market or past his lawyers. He can't even get his car sold in some states, he's not going to railroad this thing despite obvious safety concerns. Again, he's not an idiot. If there were any chance of someone putting someone else to sleep with it, one would assume he would put that into the "Neat but stupid" idea pile.

Speaking of, I'm sure there are some fascinating but fatally flawed ideas that have come from Musk's team. They should publish a book of them.

Re:Cereberal Network Variability

[pz]

Uh, no. If what you asserted were the case, then things like cortical visual prostheses would not be a possibility. I suggest you look them up. While they are still under development, they most certainly do intend on creating fine-grained control over neural activity. Same for cortical somatosensory prostheses. On the flip side, we can definitely read-out fine-grained information about neural activity, such as is used for motor system prostheses, ranging from limb prostheses to vocal chord prostheses.

On both the read-out (decoding) side, and the driving (encoding) side, we have the ability to receive and transmit information on an individual basis. Yes, there is a lot of variability, but that is part and parcel of the challenge. Just as individual variation in foot size and shape does not preclude the creation of shoes because there is an underlying structure, so individual variation in brain morphology and wiring is unlikely to preclude creation of brain/machine interfaces because again there is an underlying structure.

Any time you hear someone say it is impossible to do something, it's likely they are just not thinking in advanced enough terms to overcome whatever barrier they perceive. I myself am guilty of such mistaken proclamations.

Re:Cereberal Network Variability

[Kiuas]

Easier to tap nerve bundles than the actual brain

You're right, but there are many conditions for which the brain is the problem. I've have cerebral palsy (more specifically spastic diplegia) as a result of a brain injury caused by oxygen loss during a premature birth. Through various surgeries addressing orthopedic and muscular issues I've reached a point wherein I can now even stand still without any external support. Walking is possible with canes or as little support as one finger to hold onto with both of my hands. The core of the issue is that the part of the motor cortex that processes incoming information from the balance organs and muscles about the posture of the body is partially dead, so the brain is unable to regulate balance accordingly. Outside stem cells or other such theoretical ways of regenerating nerve tissue, implants are the only thing that may one day solve this.

The biggest problems are; Would the government hack it if they could, yes. Would Corporation hack it if they could, yes.

A hypothetical implant for something like my case of CP would be just a chip that sits on top of the brain and does the calculations that the dead part of the cortex would normally do. It doesn't have to be connected to the external world, and should I ever get to see a day where such an implant is a reality, I certainly would not accept one that was. I'm 26 now and realistically speaking I don't expect to see this tech becoming widespread during my lifetime, nor will I volunteer as a test subject because I've reached a point wherein I can live by myself, work and drive a vehicle, so my quality of life is pretty much as close to normal as is currently feasible for people with CP, thanks in large part to the medical expertise of the university of Helsinki hospital, so my disability does not bother me nearly enough for me to desire to try experimental high risk treatments. But having seen the already very promising results that for example deep brain stimulation has had for people with Parkinson's etc I do think this kind of solution is far more feasible after some more decades of advances than most people currently think.

Re:Cereberal Network Variability

[Rande]

Yes, start smaller, with more defined outcomes by tapping the nerves on the less important things like toes that aren't going to ruin a persons life if it screws up.
Once that's going really well, one can move up the body, and yes, eventually the eyes and the brain.

Re:Cereberal Network Variability

[bongey]

The brain can use different parts of the brain for new tasks. Echo location studies using MRI in blind humans the part of brain usually devoted to sight,end up processing sound for echo location. https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

Crazy the blind guy can ride a bike without issue and is crazy accurate for what you would expect.

Re:Cereberal Network Variability

[Viol8]

"On both the read-out (decoding) side, and the driving (encoding) side, we have the ability to receive and transmit"

Receiving and transmitting DATA is one thing, turning it into *information* thats useful to the implant and the brain is another entirely. We've been able to measure neural activity for decades but we've barely begun to understand what 99% of it means from the patients subjective point of view so don't pretend this is nothing more than an I/O problem - it goes WAY beyond that.

Re:Cereberal Network Variability

[butchersong]

This is another interesting case. Here the lady basically takes a webcam and translates that to sound. Seems she's able to perceive depth and other fairly impressive things with it.
https://www.wired.com/2017/03/...

Re:Cereberal Network Variability

[sgt_doom]

I wonder what became of Tan Le and her Emotiv company's neural interface, featured several years back on one of those godawful corporate TED talks? According to the depiction of it, it seemed to be very advanced (assuming it was a truthful depiction, of course!).

Re:Cereberal Network Variability

[david_thornley]

I have a cousin with Parkinson's. The difference between before and after the brain implant was amazing.

Security and Robustness

[sinij]

I don't think anyone, well maybe aviation software developers, are capable of programming such devices. It must be efficient, secure, fault tolerant... the list goes on. By contrast, today commercial software is expected to fail and security updates are routine that nobody minds. This would be disastrous when applied to such tech. Just imagine someone figuring out how to crash your visual cortex, inducing seizures and such.

Neural Lace

[PopeRatzo]

I'm more of a neural leather guy.

Re: Elon Musk is . . .

[Anonymous Coward]

theres an aspect of being rich will only get you so far staying so is another matter. he is doing somthing right in the company. just because he gets subsidies is not necessary a bad thing nor necessarily a goal in of itself.

"Neural lace" is a term invented by Iain M. Banks

[realmolo]

He was the author of "The Culture" series of sci-fi novels. Which is *easily* the greatest science-fiction series ever written. It's everything you ever wanted from sci-fi. If you haven't read them, do so immediately.

Start with "The Player of Games", or even better, "Use of Weapons" if you are an "andvanced" reader.

Re:Clogging capillaries

[Netssansfrontieres]

Oo, that's cool.

1. Neural lace creates digital I/O to the brain ...
2. Neural lace kills neurons ...
3. No problemo! Off board memory and proessors to the rescue - we're all backed up to and supported on some cloud service: AWS on steroids, almost literally.
4. Shared cloud service! We're all collaborative because we're all ants under the same control.

I'm not actually in favor of a/ injecting into my (admittedly defective in some ways) brain or b/ having my skull cut open, or c/ having probes jabbed into my grey-ish matter or ... well, actually, any of this.

Re:Elon Musk is . . .

[Hylandr]

I assume he read about something like this in a scifi novel when he was a kid and now that he's rich he's throwing money at it

As a fan for the progression of technology I hail him as a hero for sacrificing his funds to make the world a better place. He deserves all the fame in the world. It's not like he's selfishly using his riches to be Batman, he's contributing his gobs of money for the betterment of Humanity.

What have you done to help your fellow man today, other than to post as an anonymous coward to belittle the selfless ambitions of a man using his billions for the greater good?

Re:Fuck that.

[Hylandr]

There's value in that too. Have some compassion.

Re:"Neural lace" is a term invented by Iain M. Ban

[Boronx]

His ideas are neat, but his style is plodding.

let's step back for a second

[slashmydots]

Clean energy is so important and so impossible to compete in and succeed in, 100% of the company's resources should be dedicated to it. Instead they want to go to space which is one giant money sink. Now there's this nonsense. There's only so much investor money available. This is dangerously stupid. Don't even get my started on the Hyperloop or as I like to call it, Dook Nukem Forever-loop.

Change the default password

[Martin S.]

Change the default password is one of the oldest pieces of advice for security with new computing devices.

We've see the importance of this advice underlined with IoT devices such as CCTV being added to BotNets.

Today we see this advice is relevant Digital Assistants, with TV advert using the activation phrase to trigger Goggle Home.

Today we also learn that Elon Musk is developing Neural Laces, digital to neural interface.

We need to see security designed into these from the bottom up.

Five neuroscience "experts"

[93 Escort Wagon]

Are any of them more than just venture-capital-millionaire-wannabes?

Re:Fuck that.

[Maritz]

For your sake I hope that just a shit joke. Weed's great and all but it doesn't cure shit.

Re:You you folks have not watched the SyFy TV ....

[Maritz]

Yeah let's ban something based on what a TV show has speculated. Bulletproof reasoning.

Re: Fuck that.

[Anonymous Coward]

I suffer from extreme chronic pain among other issues. Just like pain medication, smoking weed only treats the symptoms but doesn't cure the true on going issues. I would be more than willing to let Musk's researchers drop neural lace or slap a chip in my melon if I thought it was a cure or a more permanent solution for my constant pain. I have been to many different doctors try to find a way to lessen my pain or find a cure. I've had multiple injections using cocktails of meds or just regular steroids to get a cure. I'm heading to the Cleveland Clinic next to go through a 4 week program to help cure or at least control my pain. This is kind of the last chance to try something to help me. So if Musk's doctors can implant a chip or whatever to help me then I'd let them when they have a useful product.

Scary Stuff

[JimSadler]

Such a technology could be applied without consent in many cases. For example convicts might be implanted in such a way that they could no longer commit crimes. Some of the mentally ill would fight like crazy any attempt to actually cure their mental illness. For some of these folks the illness and the person are the same thing. Remove the illness and their universe would simply cease to exists. For example a person with paranoia may feel that he is such a mess in life as that mysterious enemy has forced him into doing things. Blast that fantasy away and he will be forced to admit he is the one that failed, did wrong etc.. That could leave a man with no paranoia but an overwhelming urge to commit suicide. Changing people might have terrible consequences. A priest once told me that when dealing with some nasty, angry and bitter old folks that one had to be careful not to take away that bitterness as sometimes it was all that person had.

Re:Scary Stuff

[drinkypoo]

A priest once told me that when dealing with some nasty, angry and bitter old folks that one had to be careful not to take away that bitterness as sometimes it was all that person had.

Or he could stop enabling pieces of shit to continue being pieces of shit, though I realize that is what religion is for.

Re:Scary Stuff

[Baron_Yam]

I think he had the wrong perspective. The elderly tend to get 'cranky' for three reasons:

One, there's a portion of the brain governing impulse control that actually atrophies with age.

Two, their world has often shrunk drastically as their mobility is impaired, friends have died off, and younger family is busy and can't visit constantly. They're left with much less to think about, so little things become disproportionately important to them.

Three, they're often losing control and independence, and sometimes their faculties. You try remaining friendly when you're treated like a baby because your body and maybe a bit of your own mind are betraying you.

Nothing much can be done about the first (unless it's a symptom of the other two instead of another cause)... but there's a lot that can be done about items 2 & 3 that we don't do because it's easier to simply warehouse the elderly and give them minimal care while waiting for them to die so we can say we miss them.

Re:Scary Stuff

[Gilgaron]

Yikes... my wife gets disturbed when I talk about it, but if/when I get to such a decrepit state I intend to go on a long walk in the wilderness in January.

Re:"Neural lace" is a term invented by Iain M. Ban

[drinkypoo]

Time travel is physically impossible in the cosmos containing the Culture. Automatically disqualified as "everything you ever wanted from sci-fi."

You're right. It's everything I ever wanted from science fiction. Time travel is fantasy, or skiffy.

Re:Elon Musk is . . .

[lurcher]

He ain't sacrificing shit, he's richer now than he's ever been.

https://www.forbes.com/profile/elon-musk/

Well that just makes him smart then...

Sigh.

[ledow]

Call me back when they do the first human clinical trial.

That'll be... what? 20-30 years from now?

At that point, they might be able to prove they can safely do things, and then they can get started on what they actually want to fix.

Re:Sigh.

[angel'o'sphere]

We already have human clinical trials for stuff like this since years.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=brain+imp... about 600k hits ...

Re:Sigh.

[ledow]

Don't care about research. That's happening all the time, the world over and includes stuff like this.

I care about twats making news items because they get into it and give it a fancy name and claim it's the next big thing. Including, I'd like to point out, this website.

"Musk funds research into neural implants" - questionably "news".

"Elon Musk Launches Neuralink To Connect Brains With Computers" - undoubtedly hyperbole.

Especially when the entire story consists of "Something will be announced in the future, but let's guess at what it is because nobody is actually telling us".

The rest of the culture....

[Elfich47]

The rest of the Culture had a different name for Grey Area: MeatF*cker. For exactly the reason you mentioned: Taking justice into his own hands (metaphorically).

The Culture and Time Travel

[Elfich47]

Time Travel wasn't something Ian Banks ever explored. Time Travel is really really hard to get right and has limited uses: Brootstrap problem, Be your own Grandfather problem, Kill Hitler scenarios, Predestination/Freewill scenarios. Which are all variations on closed loops or the butterfly effect from changing the past. Or time travel is used as a hand waving exercise to allow for other adventures (Doctor Who, The Voyagers, maybe Rick and Morty).

In the issues the Ian Banks was exploring with the Culture (cultural conflict and assimilation, what happens to societies when scarcity is no longer a driving impetus, What happens when the well intentioned dabble with "lesser" powers) didn't need Time Travel in order to explore them.

But back to your comment: Your dismissal of The Culture Series feels uninformed and shoot from the hip, let alone rude. On the flip side; while The Culture is well written I don't know if I would call it the greatest Sci-Fi ever written, there are plenty of contenders for that title (Look at all of the Hugo and Nebula winners for other choices).

Aviation software devs?

[Viol8]

I guess you haven't heard of the problems with the F35. Not to mention all the avionics bugs that are quietly fixed in commercial airliners without knowledge of them ever getting out to the wider public. There's a good reason Airbus uses 3 seperate master computers with software written by 3 seperate teams.

Re:Fuck that.

[butchersong]

There is more and more evidence that psychedelics can perform some kind of reset in the brain to alleviate many mental disorders but yeah I wouldn't expect marijuana to be of any real help.. other than maybe cases of extreme anxiety? But then you might just end up paranoid and anxious after long term use...

Re:Elon Musk is . . .

[WrongMonkey]

This post is exactly the problem. Your hero worship is grossly misplaced on a industrialist with a good PR strategy. Musk is no better or worse than all the railroad, oil and steel barons of the 19th century. They were making the world a better place, too, by providing the infrastructure on which our modern society is built. But you'd have to been pretty gullible to mistake their motivations as being selfless or noble. And Musk is no different in that regard either.

Re:Elon Musk is . . .

[Hylandr]

So what if he is? Why should I have a problem with someone trying to turn a profit while improving our quality of life?

Are you mental?

If you had a million dollars, would you spend it all on tents for the homeless and be broke or would you invest it so every year you could buy 100,000 worth of tents and training for the homeless every year?

Even if he didn't buy tents. It's his money, he earned it through sweat and or intelligence. Don't be so jealous.

Re:Elon Musk is . . .

[WrongMonkey]

I'm totally fine with what Elon Musk is doing and he has every right to invest his money as he sees fit. But when you throw around words like "hero" and "sacrifice" and "selfless", then you are in spitting the face of the people who actually have made selfless sacrifices for the betterment of humanity. And since those people are usually too decent to stick up for themselves, I feel like its the least I can to defend them.

Musk has never had to skip a meal to feed someone else. He's never risked an Ebola infection to treat the sick. He's never waded into a war zone to save the injured. He is not even investing a million dollars to buy $100,000 worth of tents ever year. In your analogy, he is investing some seed money, so he can get other people to invest in he's design for better tents. That's not philanthropy, that's just regular capitalism. And we can respect that with turning into hero worship.

Re:Elon Musk is . . .

[Hylandr]

that's just regular capitalism. And we can respect that with turning into hero worship.

Ok, I can buy that. Thank you for making a good point and not devolve into name calling. :)

LIkely to be safer than oral/inhaled/absorb drugs.

[BlueCoder]

Imagine if you could artificial control your own mood without taking drugs. You could fall asleep when you want to and wake up quickly at a certain time. You could be happy, social, and less anxious when you want. You could turn on or off sexual desire. You could have the mental focus of a robot and feel bored. How about turning off pain in whole or selectively. Turn off anxiety and fear. These and a million other uses are guaranteed. How much would any of those be worth if you could control them? It's a guaranteed future for he that invests.

And we haven't even gotten to the point of discussing illegal wire-heads and simply do it to get a better drug free high.

Re:Fuck that.

[Neuronwelder]

Even if it only cured anxiety. Do you know how many diseases are caused by anxiety? Better look quick, because they are busy scrubbing the Web!! They want you to stay uninformed, and in the dark.

Re:"Neural lace" is a term invented by Iain M. Ban

[realmolo]

It's true. After "Look to Windward", the quality went down. And "Matter" flat-out sucked. But "Surface Detail" is pretty good, and "Hydrogen Sonata" is alright, too.

Still, overall, I'd say it's the best sci-fi series ever. Though sometimes I feel like "The Vorkosigan Saga" might deserve the title, also. But that's not "hard" sci-fi.

Blood Clot Device Lawsuit

[Neuronwelder]

I think Uncle Elon is on a pirate ship, walking out on a plank on this one.. Not too long ago there was a device that was inserted into the veins of a person and supposedly filtered out blood clots. Well the device detached itself and lodged itself in other places. Lawsuits started circulating in commercials against the device. I think he should have a "Wait and see." approach on this one.

Re:LIkely to be safer than oral/inhaled/absorb dru

[Gilgaron]

It'd take some failsafes to make it work, or else people are just going to hit the orgasm button until they starve. For anyone mildly susceptible to addiction, I'd expect, anyhow.

Re:"Neural lace" is a term invented by Iain M. Ban

[angel'o'sphere]

There are plenty of other good writers, e.g.:
 

1. Alison Reynolds
2. Charles Stross
3. Ken MacLeod

I'm bad with names, so I would need to check my bookshelf to find more.

Yup, it was in an Analog mag featured story . . .

[sgt_doom]

the female executive had a brain link to her supercomputer, which aided her high-tech corporation immensely. Pretty good yarn.

Re:Elon Musk is . . .

[angel'o'sphere]

If Elon Musk was a "regular capitalist", he would invest where he would expect to make the most money.

As he is only doing projects, founding companies, that help mankind, of course he is a philanthrop. And you are just silly..

Re:Fuck that.

[angel'o'sphere]

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=medical+u...

Re:Elon Musk is . . .

[WrongMonkey]

Of course he's trying to make the most money possible. In terms of stock valuation, what companies have outperformed Tesla in the last 10 years? Even with the benefit of hindsight, you'd have a hard time finding a more profitable investment.

Every company in the world claims to be helping humanity. That's just a marketing gimmick. Goldman Sachs will tell you that they're helping humanity by making financial markets more fluid. Exxon will tell you that they're helping humanity by providing the energy that runs the world. WalMart will tell you that they're helping humanity by providing affordable goods. Elon Musk IS NO DIFFERENT. He's not selling cars at cost. He's not taking a loss on solar panels. So quit putting him in same category as people who have made actual sacrifices.

Re:"Neural lace" is a term invented by Iain M. Ban

[gigne]

Alison Reynold writes great kids books. My daughter loves them.
She's not really much into Alistair Reynolds, I guess hard Sci-fi is a but too advanced yet. I love it though. I especially like Revelation Space.

Re:"Neural lace" is a term invented by Iain M. Ban

[gigne]

* Alastair Reynolds

Re: Elon Musk is . . .

[Hylandr]

+1 Funny.

Re:Elon Musk is . . .

[david_thornley]

Every company claims to be helping humanity, but I can judge which ones I think do. I think reducing cost to low earth orbit helps us a lot more than making financial markets more fluid. Also, Space-X seems to be making better progress on the cost reduction than others, while I suspect that if Goldman-Sachs went away other companies would fill the gap nicely.

He's doing stuff I want people to do, takes risks (which could turn into some sacrifice) and has been accomplishing stuff I want accomplished. That doesn't make him a hero, but it does make him a guy I really admire.

Re:Fuck that.

[david_thornley]

Something that makes it possible for people to eat and get nourished (and marijuana seems to do that in a fair number of cases) is going to save lives and help cure other things. At least if it's legalized.

Re:LIkely to be safer than oral/inhaled/absorb dru

[david_thornley]

It's a guaranteed future for he that invests.

Investment isn't enough. Lots of people invest in ideas that go nowhere until their investments are worthless. To win big, you have to invest at the right time with the right people.

Re:Elon Musk is . . .

[angel'o'sphere]

What have 'sacrifices' to do with it?
You can not really sell anything 'at cost', the risk that resources you need, spike in price is to high.
Point is: he is doing business in niche markets and is producing products that help mankind.
You can turn that however you want. But you can not deny it!

Re:Elon Musk is . . .

[drsquare]

If Musk's motivation was money, why on earth would he invest in rockets and electric cars?