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Red Hat And IBM Will Vote Against Java's Next Release (infoworld.com)
An anonymous reader quotes InfoWorld:
The next edition of standard Java had been proceeding toward its planned July 27 release after earlier bumps in the road over modularity. But now Red Hat and IBM have opposed the module plan. "JDK 9 might be held up by this," Oracle's Georges Saab, vice president of development for the Java platform, said late Wednesday afternoon. "As is the case for all major Java SE releases, feedback from the Java Community Process may affect the timeline..."
Red Hat's Scott Stark, vice president of architecture for the company's JBoss group, expressed a number of concerns about how applications would work with the module system and its potential impact on the planned Java Enterprise Edition 9. Stark also said the module system, which is featured in Java Specification Request 376 and Project Jigsaw, could result in two worlds of Java: one for Jigsaw and one for everything else, including Java SE classloaders and OSGI. Stark's analysis received input from others in the Java community, including Sonatype.
"The result will be a weakened Java ecosystem at a time when rapid change is occurring in the server space with increasing use of languages like Go," Stark wrote, also predicting major challenges for applications dealing with services and reflection. His critique adds that "In some cases the implementation...contradicts years of modular application deployment best practices that are already commonly employed by the ecosystem as a whole." And he ultimately concludes that this effort to modularize Java has limitations which "almost certainly prevent the possibility of Java EE 9 from being based on Jigsaw, as to do so would require existing Java EE vendors to completely throw out compatibility, interoperability, and feature parity with past versions of the Java EE specification."
Red Hat's Scott Stark, vice president of architecture for the company's JBoss group, expressed a number of concerns about how applications would work with the module system and its potential impact on the planned Java Enterprise Edition 9. Stark also said the module system, which is featured in Java Specification Request 376 and Project Jigsaw, could result in two worlds of Java: one for Jigsaw and one for everything else, including Java SE classloaders and OSGI. Stark's analysis received input from others in the Java community, including Sonatype.
"The result will be a weakened Java ecosystem at a time when rapid change is occurring in the server space with increasing use of languages like Go," Stark wrote, also predicting major challenges for applications dealing with services and reflection. His critique adds that "In some cases the implementation...contradicts years of modular application deployment best practices that are already commonly employed by the ecosystem as a whole." And he ultimately concludes that this effort to modularize Java has limitations which "almost certainly prevent the possibility of Java EE 9 from being based on Jigsaw, as to do so would require existing Java EE vendors to completely throw out compatibility, interoperability, and feature parity with past versions of the Java EE specification."
... because ORACLE ever gave a fuck what other Companys/People/Lifeforms "vote" for or against...
Surprise, surprise, surprise!
Either Oracle thinks this is going to get them more money, or they're trying to kill Java because it doesn't bring in enough money to build Larry a gold boat for the America Cup races.
Honestly, the whole Jigsaw thing, while interesting, didn't require all the internal replumbing they're doing. As for J9EE not running on Jigsaw, great! Does anyone still use EE for anything new? Pieces of it, sure, but EE as a whole? Who'd want that?
To be honest, simplifying the Java system into a solid core is great, but Jigsaw seems to break far too many things.
The cesspool just got a check and balance.
I vote against Java as well. Can we vote that it gets deleted from existence? That's my vote.
I would love for older versions of Java to go away. The majority of the 80,000+ workstations I'm responsible for has the current version of Java installed. Some of these workstations have legacy applications that requires an older version of Java 6 by itself or with the current Java installed. Accidentally deleting an older version of Java can cause a blizzard of emails. Whenever I come across an older version of Java, I create a ticket for the local tech to evaluate.
And then there is Adobe Flash...
People need to stop using Java for everything, not because of personal preference but because of Oracle's incessant bullshit. Honestly, if OpenJDK hadn't originated from SUN then Java programmers would shit out of luck as Oracle would have had to crush them just to get to Google.
Stop supporting Oracle's eternal war and move to different languages!
Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
"JDK 9 might be held up by this,"
Write once, wait everywhere. :-)
[ Disclaimer: I like Java. ]
It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
Let me guess IBM/Websphere is not ready so everyone has to wait for them??? How about we stick with EJB3 and ESB?
In 1995, Sun showed Java off in our lab. We were writing cross-platform C++ for about 15 platforms at the time. They said Java was bloated, sucked RAM, and ran slowly. They claimed in a few years, it would be almost as fast as C++.
I'm still waiting.
The Java language doesn't bother me. It is all the crap implementations. Screw new features. Fix the memory suck and slowness first. It isn't like they didn't have ... 20+ yrs to do it already.
I've written a couple apps in Java, run them weekly. That said, no way in hell will I allow a web browser to run Java (nor Javascript, and I know they are completely different). Don't see how either of my apps are security issues as neither touches the network. They scratch an itch, they do what I need them to do, I'm happy with them.
The Redhat team spearheading this assault is JBoss. These guys (along with IBM) has been responsible for putting out the most bloated piece of shit code around the world. I can imagine these guys would be resistant to any effort to modularization.
I have some serious concerns with Jigsaw, to be sure. But nothing as bad as the bloated alternatives that JBoss and IBM bring to the table.
Red Hat's Scott Stark [...] also said the module system, which is featured in Java Specification Request 376 and Project Jigsaw, could result in two worlds of Java: one for Jigsaw and one for everything else, including Java SE classloaders and OSGI
Funny seeing that coming from the company behind SystemD.
IBM and Red Hat are correct:
The project seems to have slipped backwards, as this slide from 2014 indicates the implementation of version requirements.
Whereas the 2016 documentation stipulates:
"A module's declaration does not include a version string, nor constraints upon the version strings of the modules upon which it depends. This is intentional: It is not a goal of the module system to solve the version-selection problem, which is best left to build tools and container applications."
The State of the Module System
Anything less than Node's package requirements is going to be useless. There should be absolutely no wildcards in major version numbers, with warnings in medium. They are the curse of Node!
While C is faster in some cases, java is faster in other cases starting with Android 6.0.
As a falsehood this is fairly outrageous. Real benchmarks are available here.
Java must be considered good in its niche. Despite that, it's apparently necessary for you and others to write apologetics for it. As a language, it's verbose and unlovely. Worse than that, it's boring. Which of course makes it all the more suited for its purpose: most applications are boring. Boring code does what it's supposed to do in ways that are easy to understand.
Programming has two inheritances. The first is the theoretical foundation, stemming from the lambda calculus and that Turing guy. The second inheritance is that of the circuit and the capacitor: the actual mechanics of slinging bits around. It's probably fair enough to suggest that languages tend to favor either performance and bit-slinging or functional purity. Java occupies an uncomfortable niche in the sense that it is very much on the performance side of things rather than the functional, and yet it consistently falls short of C, and for that matter Rust and Erlang seem to stack up pretty well.
To borrow from Alan Perlis, "A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming, is not worth knowing." Java may even be the perfect language of its category. It never goes on any adventures or does anything unexpected, and its performance is just fine, thank you. But you'll pardon me if I prefer
to
Java borrowed from stack overflow
Those who advocate genocide deserve every protection afforded by law, and none afforded by common human decency.
I've not looked into Jigsaw / JSR 376 in any detail, so I can't comment on it's virtues or problems.
But I wonder if the bigger picture isn't being missed here - part of the reason why other languages are taking off is a lack of progress with Java. Although, I've always seen the calls for modularity a bit misguided - the classloader provides separation within a JVM when it is required. An "interpreted" mode (e.g. watches .java files for changes, and compiles / replaces the class behind the scenes) would be a big win for developer productivity.
It's about time for Java to die. The Oracle experiment was a failure.
For that matter, it's about time for Oracle to die. And Oracle trollmod employees can also FOAD.
When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
If you actually read TFA, Stark isn't vetoing Jigsaw so much as calling for a delay so they can add the features needed for read-world applications, before they finalize it and it causes a world of hurt. Originally I was like "I want my Jigsaw now, why is this guy making trouble?", but after reading his well-presented blog post I think Oracle and the Java community should be taking these concerns very seriously.
I also vote against Java.