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The Older the Doctor, the Higher the Patient Mortality Rate, Study Finds (arstechnica.com)

An anonymous reader quotes a report from Ars Technica: The age of your doctor may impact the quality of the care you receive -- and even cut your chances of survival -- researchers report in the British Medical Journal. Harvard researchers looked over data on more than 700,000 hospital admissions of elderly patients cared for by nearly 19,000 physicians between 2011 and 2014. They found that mortality rates crept up in step with physician age. Patients with doctors under the age of 40 had a 30-day mortality rate of 10.8 percent. With doctors aged 40 to 49, mortality rates inched up to 11.1 percent, then to 11.3 percent with doctors 50 to 59, and 12.1 percent with doctors aged 60 or above. The stats are adjusted for a variety of variables, such as hospital mortality rates and severity of patients' illnesses. All the patients were aged 65 or older and on Medicare. Though the age-related mortality trend was significant overall, it broke down when researchers sorted doctors by caseloads. Older doctors who saw high volumes of patients didn't see their patients' mortality rates increase.

25 of 136 comments (clear)

  1. Flawed study by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    How do we know that older patients don't just like going to older doctors?

    1. Re:Flawed study by taustin · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It does seem likely. I'd guess they mostly have been seeing the same doctor for many, many years, and have no interest in changing.

      Did they correlate the doctor's age with the patient's age? Do older doctors tend to see more older (and thus more likely to die soon) patients?

    2. Re:Flawed study by arth1 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      How do we know that older patients don't just like going to older doctors?

      RTFS?
      "700,000 hospital admissions of elderly patients"

      My personal guess is that older doctors might be a little better at weighing quality of life against longevity, while younger doctors might be following the book more, prolonging life no matter what the physical/mental/monetary cost to the patient is. That would explain why older doctors with a high workload didn't show the same drop in longevity - they won't have time to get to know each patients as well.
      I know that when my time draws near, I hope I find a doctor that can help me have a good quality of life for my last few days or weeks, even if it's shorter. And preferably without bankrupting those I leave behind on expensive treatments that can only prolong agony.
      So I'll likely try to find an older doctor with empathy.

    3. Re:Flawed study by Zaelath · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Summary says they were all "elderly patients", so the factor changing is the age of the doctor.

      I think the busy doctor == good doctor correlation holds true as well, was certainly the case for mine. Might be that the good ones are kept busy, but I suspect as much that the work keeps their minds sharp.

    4. Re:Flawed study by Fly+Swatter · · Score: 2, Interesting

      An older doctor is also more experienced. Patients with serious problems that result in higher mortality, will choose the experienced older doctor.

    5. Re:Flawed study by clovis · · Score: 4, Informative

      How do we know that older patients don't just like going to older doctors?

      The patients were unlikely to be choosing their doctor in this study.

      The doctors used for this study were hospitalists. Hospitalists care for patients admitted to the hospital.
      Your regular primary care doctor is unlikely to be a hospitalist (although some hospitalists do have regular clinic days) because you are not getting admitted to the hospital for a sore throat or broken arm.
      Hospitalists treat very sick people, and in the hospital where I worked, they were considered to be higher-skill doctors then your regular doctor.

      The study used the records of hospitalists because generally speaking, the patient does not get a chance to choose their hospitalist, and the study wanted to avoid that factor. Also because hospitalists treat admitted patients, they are dealing with people who are far more likely die without treatment, so that makes the numbers interesting.

    6. Re:Flawed study by taustin · · Score: 3, Interesting

      "Elderly patients" covers a lot of territory. A 60 year old and a 90 year old are both elderly, but do not have the same life expectancy. And the 90 year old has likely been seeing the same doctor for years longer, so that doctor is likely older.

      If they didn't ask the question, it's not a very useful study.

    7. Re:Flawed study by thesupraman · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I would go a little stronger than that.
      Older patients DO prefer older doctors.

      However it is MUCH more obvious even that that.

      Patients WITH MORE SERIOUS ISSUES tend to be allocated to MORE EXPERIENCED (ie: odler) DOCTORS.
      And, more serious issues tend to have higher mortality rates.
      Of course, they 'adjust for severity of illness', however that is impossible to do, as not all examples of a single illness have the same risks, and the more severe cases end up with the older doctors.

      A class case of correlation not being causation - something lost on a lot of younger generation researchers, it seems.
      After all, grabbing a few splashy headlines is MUCH more important than any actual science.

    8. Re:Flawed study by Zaelath · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Yeah, I agree, except that the life expectancy for people over 65 going to the doctor is probably more consistent.

      Plus, it's about the weight of numbers; if the mortality rate for all patients that attend hospital A was 10% and hospital B was 15%, does it matter how old you are when you're picking between those two hospitals? Assuming the same catchment area, hence the choice.

      Attending hospital tends to already select for people with a higher than average mortality rate.

      Besides, the authors understand there's not enough information to act on, but it's enough to suggest that the area be studied at greater depth to see if there's a case for adjusting how continuing education is managed.

    9. Re:Flawed study by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 4, Informative

      If they didn't ask the question, it's not a very useful study.

      They adjusted for patient age. This is explained in the actual paper. They also adjusted for gender, ethnicity, household income, day of week of admission, etc.

      They also considered many characteristics of the doctor besides age, including gender, medical school attended, etc.

    10. Re:Flawed study by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 4, Insightful

      A young Dr can also be very selective in the areas they want to practice ... An older doctor might serve a poor area

      The study compared doctors working at the same hospital, and adjusted for patient household income.

    11. Re:Flawed study by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 5, Informative

      The study adjusted for severity of the illness or injury. It also adjusted for the age of the patient.

      Disclaimer: I RTFA and then clicked on the link and read the actual paper where all of this is explained.

    12. Re:Flawed study by GuB-42 · · Score: 2

      Of course researchers know about statistics, but they also want to publish successful results.
      Even honest researchers will try to make their papers as impressive as possible, because their funding depend on it, and a simple correlation is better than nothing. Failures, even though they may be as valuable as successes don't publish well. These papers may be picked up by less rigorous journalists and presented with the conclusion the original researchers carefully avoided.

    13. Re:Flawed study by houghi · · Score: 2

      My mom did just that. Cancer and she refused treatment (as she knew how it would be after going through it already once). Instead of prolonging her life for perhaps 1 year with all the pain that treatment brings, she had pain reduction instead and great help from the palliative doctors.
      And this had nothing to do with bankrupting anybody. All would have been paid either way.
      She died at 83 instead of 84 perhaps.

      The fact that she did not have to take the decision because of money makes it even more humane.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    14. Re:Flawed study by Kjella · · Score: 2

      It's more an assumption than an adjustment. Despite the ~20k diagnostic codes in ICD-10 they don't accurately reflect the individual severity, like all dehydrations go under E86.0 from light to severe. The doctors work shifts and take the people that come but if there's more than one doctor at the same time serving a queue there might be a subtle prioritization that the best one handles the worst cases or the junior doctor takes extra many easy cases skewing the statistic.

      Our study has several limitations. First, our findings would be confounded if older physicians, on average, treat patients at higher risk of 30 day mortality because of factors unmeasured by our analysis. We specifically chose our within hospital study design to deal with this concern, hypothesizing that patients are essentially randomized to hospitalist physicians of various ages within the same hospital, an assumption supported by the largely similar demographic and clinical characteristics across patients that older and younger physicians treat.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    15. Re:Flawed study by ColdWetDog · · Score: 2

      It's an observational study. MOST observational study conclusions end up failing to be reproduced in prospective studies - for reasons you point out.

      The end point was 30 day mortality. Readmit rates were unchanged. The latter is typically a better discriminator for 'bad care' - if the patient has to come back to the hospital in a month for the same reason, you can argue that you should have done something different (doesn't always work, but it seems to be a valid generality).

      30 day mortality suggests (but does not prove) that a strong possibility is that older doctors where less likely to be aggressive. That can be appropriate or inappropriate care depending on the patient and condition.

      All in all, this is *very* preliminary (as the authors duly point out). Unfortunately, it seems to be on the road to the the Medical News de jour and will be plastered about the Internet as the unvarnished truth.

      Sigh.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    16. Re:Flawed study by jellomizer · · Score: 2

      From my experience/not scientific.
      Older Doctors (like older people in any profession) will use their experience increasingly over time. While younger doctors, will supplement their lack of experience with learning the new methods.
      The younger doctors today, are far more willing to query their Electronic Health Records and see the full patient history, trust the Drug to Drug and Allergy alerts. Do wider analysis on what others may have done for this particular case. While the older doctor, will just complain that using the computers is slower to enter in the data, have their assistants enter in the data, while they ignore the benefits.

      Doctors (much like IT workers) have an inflated Ego, this makes them hard to retrain.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
  2. So many possible confounds by The+Raven · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I run a Help Desk. The reps who do the most tickets are not the best. That's because the best reps can fix issues without escalating, but that takes time. Do doctors who take many patients mostly do the easy stuff? Are the doctors who take fewer patients specialists in their field, or handling more difficult cases that take more attention per patient?

    Does seniority mean they take more difficult cases? Does seniority mean they care less about their malpractice insurance (because they are more secure financially)? Does seniority change which patients seek you out?

    There are so many potential confounding reasons for this correlation that do not depend on the doctor being less capable or providing worse care in some manner. I'm not saying that there is no cause for concern... I'm saying that the study has potential confounds that its statistical groupings did not eliminate.

    --
    "I will trust Google to 'do no evil' until the founders no longer run it." Hello Alphabet.
    1. Re:So many possible confounds by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 5, Informative

      Do doctors who take many patients mostly do the easy stuff?

      The study adjusted for severity of injury or illness. So, no, that is not the explanation for the age disparity.

  3. Which Doctor? by Fire_Wraith · · Score: 4, Funny

    Which Doctor though? Did they say it mattered in terms of total age, or solely the age of that particular incarnation of the Doctor?

  4. Re:tl;dr by arth1 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    You seem to presuppose that a longer time between admission and death is necessarily a good thing, and that doctors who don't score high on that has "lost ther edge".

    I'm not sure your premise is correct. A doctor who resorts to induced coma will score very well for that premise, but that does not mean he's a good doctor. A doctor that can't explain that a person is brain dead and that life support should end is not doing a good job either. And a doctor who prescribes expensive treatments that patients and families can ill afford, while it only prolongs life in agony is IMHO a worse doctor than one who sees where palliative care is a better solution.

  5. Considering gender difference by clovis · · Score: 2

    Doctors over 60 are disproportionately male. The gender ratio for young doctors is relatively balanced.
    It has been shown that female doctors have slightly better statistics for outcomes than male doctors.
    http://jamanetwork.com/journal...
    The JAMA study uses the same patient group as the old-vs-young study, that is hospitalized Medicare patients.
    And they both looked at performance of hospitalists.
    As near as I can tell, the gender ratio for hospitalists is more balanced than the all-doctors gender ratio, but I can't easily find numbers of age vs sex for hospitalists.

    Another factor might be that hospitalists can migrate to be a specialist (waaaay more money), but that's not an option if you're not a very good hospitalist, so perhaps the old ones are a combination of dedicated hospitalists (the ones with large patient loads and good outcomes), and the ones that didn't advance (who may be just marking time).

    So, I got curious and looked at both studies (but only the abstract for the JAMA). The difference in outcome between male and female hospitalists is smaller than the difference between young and the over 60 year old doctors. If I read correctly, the female vs male patient death difference was 11.07% vs 11.49%, but the young vs old was 10.8% vs 12.1%.
    So it appears that age is a much greater factor than sex.

  6. I wonder if they corrected for by Dunbal · · Score: 2

    The older the doctor the more specialized they are and the more complicated the patient they receive.... because the easy patients are treated by the junior doctors.

    --
    Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
  7. Re:Except that it isn't correlated to age... by nbauman · · Score: 2

    ... the study says in its very own conclusions:

    Patients in hospital treated by older hospitalists have higher mortality than patients cared for by younger hospitalists, except for hospitalist physicians with high volumes of patients.

    In other words: It's not the age, it's caseload.

    In surgery, high volume has often been associated with better outcomes. The Veterans Affairs system studied outcomes in all their hospitals for colon cancer. They found that the best results were in hospitals with higher volume, and doctors with higher volume (as I recall from the article). One of the factors associated with better surgical outcomes is having teams regularly working together. It was a convincing study because for everything they found, you could understand why it would affect quality. (I.e., no black boxes.)

    There is a debate in surgery about whether we should limit surgery to high-volume hospitals. Interestingly, there were a few small VA hospitals that were "islands of excellence," with good outcomes even though they were small. So there's no substitute for empirical data.

    Of course the main factor that affects outcomes is the patient's "fitness for surgery." There are better outcomes with better cardiovascular, lung and kidney function. A good proxy for that is the patient's age. A British doctor told me, "I could very easily get better outcomes. Just operate on healthier patients." Conversely, in the U.S., a lot of surgeons get good results because they operate on patients who are actually healthy and don't need surgery in the first place. Some studies of surgery like coronary bypass or endarterectomies find that 30% of cases don't meet the guidelines for surgery.

    Notice that the colon cancer study I read was by the VA. Contrary to what the Koch brothers are trying to get you to believe, the VA system actually has very good outcomes. They're about as good as the best hospitals in their area, and better than the mediocre ones. When the Koch brothers tried to sell the traditional veterans' organizations on privatization, the organizations knew how good the VA hospitals were, and wouldn't buy it. The Koch brothers had to create their own astroturf veterans' organization to testify before congress.

  8. Re:Doctor burnout by arth1 · · Score: 2

    My guess is that older doctors with a larger caseload is a sign that they enjoy their job and are staying current in medicine and engaged with their patients. Those with a lower caseload are burned out and getting ready to retire.

    That's your guess. Mine is that older doctors with a larger caseload have less time to talk to each patient, and will more likely go for the standard life-prolonging treatments by default.
    We could both be right or both be wrong, of course.