Slashdot Mirror
America's Cars Are Suddenly Getting Faster and More Efficient (bloomberg.com)
Kyle Stock and David Ingold, writing for Bloomberg: Sometime in the next couple of months, the Dodge Challenger SRT Demon and its 808 horsepower will show up in dealership windows like some kind of tiny, red, tire-melting factory. Yes, 808 horsepower. There's no typo. Last year, U.S. drivers on the hunt for more than 600 horsepower had 18 models to choose from, including a Cadillac sedan that looks more swanky than angry. Meanwhile, even boring commuter sedans are posting power specifications that would have been unheard of during the Ford Administration. The horses in the auto industry are running free. We crunched four decades of data from the Environmental Protection Agency's emission tests and arrived at a simple conclusion: All of the cars these days are fast and furious -- even the trucks. If a 1976 driver were to somehow get his hands on a car from 2017, he'd be at grave risk of whiplash. Since those days, horsepower in the U.S. has almost doubled, with the median model climbing from 145 to 283 stallions. Not surprisingly, the entire U.S. fleet grew more game for a drag-race: The median time it took for a vehicle to go from 0 to 60 miles per hour was halved, from almost 14 seconds to seven.
The idiots that hoon these things on normal roads provide one of the strongest possible arguments for a hard push for fully automated driving. Nobody (probably) wants a 4500 lb car rammed up their butt because someone wants to have fun. Take it to the track.
There is no XUL, only WebExtensions...
The purpose of these is the same as it's ever been. Dude gets dragged inside the dealership by his wife to fantasize about the muscle car, but still leaves with a minivan or a 4-cylinder commuter car plus a 5-7 year loan.
On the other hand, there are just as many of us who geek out on mileage (often just because we hate to blow money on transportation) so there's still hope for the planet.
The ultimate result of letting people make their own choices. Government control of choices is one way to counteract this -- i.e. make it illegal to make "bad" choices. Then the question is who gets to decide which choices are "bad" -- which is generally the government -- which is chosen by the people who would generally like to make there own choices...
I never understood this fascination with having stuff you can't use to its fullest extent.
It's like spending thousands of dollars on a water cooled over clocked triple GPU computer so you can check your email and play minesweeper.
I'm god, but it's a bit of a drag really...
I like the "more efficient" part. I'm driving a car that routinely gets over 40 miles per gallon. Back in the '70s I drove an old (60s vintage) Volkswagen Beetle that used to impress people with its great gas mileage: 26 miles per gallon. What I drive now is bigger, more comfortable, safer, faster, and in short better in every possible way, and still gets almost twice the mileage.
When speaking of sedans, I would actually argue they weigh less (heck, even the latest F150 was built out of aluminum, and weighs significantly less then F150's of yore) and their engine displacements are significantly smaller then cars from the 60's/70's. Heck, a 2.0 liter engine (fairly common nowadays) is easily able to pump out 250HP/250 lb-ft of torque, even if that HP measurement takes into account all of the additional loads/devices on the engine -- which equates to a 122 cubic inch engine. Can you imagine a American muscle car from the late 60's bragging about it's 122 cubic inch engine.
No, then it would read "America's CARS Are Suddenly Getting FASTER and MORE EFFICIENT!"
You're treating a symptom while the disease rages on. The fish rots from the head. Why not cut off the head?
We do.
A 4-cyl turbo engine today easily makes more HP than a carb V8 of the 70s. AND it does so while getting much higher MPG.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
The Challenger is a lot of things, but unless you're comparing it to an aircraft carrier I don't think "tiny" is a good adjective for it. Part of why it needs an 808 HP engine is because it weighs ~400 pounds more than the Ford Mustang that it competes against in the same class.
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
Would agree in general, but the struggle is that a modern car that can accelerate more quickly then older cars are prevalent across the spectrum -- i.e. technology has made smaller cars/smaller engines much more performant. In addition, it is much harder to make the argument that a car next to you capable of accelerating faster then a typical car from the 70's is causing you direct harm, unlike second hand smoke.
Fortunately, turbo tech has improved as well. Modern designs have surprisingly little lag. The Ford EcoBoost designs are especially good.
Then the question is who gets to decide which choices are "bad" -- which is generally the government -- which is chosen by the people who would generally like to make there own choices...
Bad choices are those that hurt everyone for the gain of a few, and driving more fuel efficient vehicles is necessary for the long term success of the country in terms of keeping us out of expensive wars, having us destroy our own environment to pump more oil, reducing emissions and just to keep prices down to avoid gas becoming too expensive in a country where not being able to drive may lock you out of employment. When it comes to adding more HP to a car, and the public flocking to those horses rather than fuel efficient vehicles, then it may come time to make a law to stop it (or I'd advocate, make it expensive but not illegal). However, since even here in Texas those cars still represent the vast minority, maybe there's no need for someone to step in.
The reality is that even here, with the highest speed limits in the US, a 180hp coupe can go fast enough to get jail time on an 85mph road, people are buying these purely for vanity reasons. A few teenage boys and overgrown teenage boys, including one guy in my neighborhood with the license plate "808HP" care but most people tend to make smarter choices.
Very bad choice using 1976 as the comparison date. For a better clue tou need to go back before 1971.
1976 was at the end of a notorious low-point in power thanks to the US auto manufacturers responding to new emissions regulations and the 1973 oil crisis:
Example of just Corvettes:
1969: least powerful (base): 300HP Most powerful (LS7) 460HP
1975: least powerful (base): 165Hp Most powerful (L82) 205HP
What USA do you live in? Between hopped up pickup trucks and luxury SUVs, the "cars" on the road around here are bigger than ever. And how many people do these private buses carry? Usually one.
808 hp in a country with 70-75-80(-85) mph speed limits,
What will happen with american built high power cars when - perhaps even by committing a crime - being pushed to the max speed? (breaking apart?)
Because its no such big deal to put much power into a car, the problem of aerodynamic lifting forces come into play interacting with shock absorbers.
The space between the street and your cars under-floor at high speed can make out the difference between driving and flying,
because more distance to the road = more air being pushed under the car = lifting your car off the ground.
So a bump on the road can send you flying, and I don't think american highways are designed for speed like the german "Autobahn".
Just saying:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
Depends what you consider "similar class"
Tesla claims they compete with Mercedes S class, BMW 7 series, etc. In those classes the Tesla is about the same price, so you can't buy "a lifetime supply of gas" with the difference as there really isn't a difference.
Now if you decide to compare the Model S to a Civic or something, sure, you'll always come out cheaper with the Civic, but it's not really a good comparison.
That said, Tesla's comparison isn't right either, but honestly, there simply ISN'T a comparison for the Model S, it's got worse interior quality than a $30,000 Kia, but it has more advanced driver assistance tech than a $100,000 luxury car. It also has the acceleration of a $1,000,000 supercar, and the cargo capacity of a large SUV, which obviously comes with worse handling than the supercar, and the cargo layout is far from optimized. It's actually really hard to place in a "class" at all. It really boils down to what you want in a car, it may be the best thing you've ever found, or a huge disappointment.
Great. Muscle cars are back, and they're high-tech. Meanwhile, we haven't been educatiing, training, or testing drivers properly for at least 20 or 30 years, which means we have an entire generation on the roads who really aren't competent, which has sparked an entire legion of idiots who claim that 'humans aren't capable of operating a motor vehicle competently, therefore we need to ban them from driving and have self-driving cars instead!' which of course is nonsensical bullshit. So we'll have under-educated, under-trained, inadequately-tested drivers behind the wheel of vehicles as powerful as a goddamned Formula-1 racecar, who will wrap it around trees and telephone poles and kill more people, which will just strengthen the strawman argument in favor of taking away everyones' driving privilege and making us risk our lives riding in shitty so-called 'self driving cars' that are not anywhere NEAR up to the task.
Bull-fucking-SHIT.
What we REALLY need is reforms in driver education and trianing (read as: fund highschool driver-ed and driver-training programs again!) and reforms in how the DMV tests new drivers.
Oh and while we're at it: Educate and train new drivers to recognize and properly, safely deal with cyclists on public roads. There should never ever again be an excuse of "I didn't see him" when someone hits a cyclist.
The reality is that even here, with the highest speed limits in the US, a 180hp coupe can go fast enough to get jail time on an 85mph road, people are buying these purely for vanity reasons.
It's not about max speed (unless they take it to the track), it's about acceleration.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
To everyone thinking people are suddenly going to be blasting around in the Dodge Demon, it's quite obviously a car designed to be capable of fast drag strip times while also being street legal. And yes, I'm sure some dunce will wrap one around a telephone pole, but they are not going to be hugely prolific cars.
And as someone who is involved in both drag racing and oval dirt track racing, I prefer a car with good mileage, only modest power, and very good handling for a daily driver.
There ARE pretty high performance cars that get mileage I never even believed would be possibly, usually to displacement on demand technologies where cylinders are literally shut off when not needed. This was tried many many years ago with little success, but now they have the ability to actually collapse the lifters and keep the cylinder sealed so pumping losses drop to a minimum and you can realize the full benefit.
And as for the "squishy" torque converter, that was solved years ago with a lock-up converter. The converter only acts as a converter during necessary transitional states. The rest of the time, a clutch inside it locks up and turns it into a direct drive mechanism, removing most of the fluid losses inside.
One of the big gains to thermodynamic efficiency can be had with compression ratio increases, which has been seen. Historically, due to only crude control over the combustion process (carburetor, mechanical/vacuum based ignition timing curves), an increase in compression ratio pretty much necessitated increased fuel octane. Now this isn't as true, given the much more precise control over combustion with direct cylinder injection and individual coil per spark plug . So compression ratio can be increased with advanced control to prevent getting into knock, then detonation, the pre-ignition, then ultimate failure.
EGR is good for efficiency in some cases, but is a horsepower killer. Racing engines intentionally keep the exhaust valve and intake valve open simultaneously (known as overlap) to pull fresh air and fuel through the cylinder on every cycle to "scavenge" out and clean all combustion products out from the previousl cycle. The downside is that some raw fuel is discharged out the exhaust.
Bottom line is we have cars now with horsepower ranges from a 4 cylinder that would have been tough at times with an 8 cylinder engine and getting 2x or 3x the mileage (sometimes even more!). We are on the right track. High performance cars have been ingrained in auto industry DNA for a long time.
Most of the early good big block TAs (watch for the ones with Oldsmobile engines, stay away) had two speeds and 2.83 rears. Monster torque geared to go over 150 made them just torque through DOT tires even at that gearing. Just put a 4.11 in the back and drag racing tires and you are good to go to the quarter mile. If you build the motor, you will have to also tub the back for big old tires. It's not a very popular choice to make into a drag car.
They are fat pigs. Wallow. Had one, don't really miss it. Hate to say it, but the Mustang is much smaller and somewhat lighter, even though it's a convertible. Motor was much weaker, but I 'fixed' that. 'Weak motor' is much easier to fix than 'fat pig'. I debadged it, but the 'blue oval of shame' is still there.
Get a box Nova and put a rat in that. Pontiac race parts are expensive and rare, so are box Novas. Use a Eurotrash car and put a tubular frame in it...e.g. Fiat 850 sport w. V8, my current proj, Chevy parts are still cheap and easy. If you're going to go good and fast, you're going to want the cage and restraints anyhow, make sure it's built to NHRA/IHRA spec for your target ET. Should be the same, double check with your local tracks tech inspectors before spending $. Rules could be changing, they know, ask them. Don't buy the restraint belts until the last minute, they expire and are expensive.
If you're small enough to fit, it's hard to beat a miata these days. Put a stock 5.0 ford pushrod motor and trans in it and you're good to go. You can't build that motor at all or it will explode the Mazda IRS...traction is an issue.
For street fun, get a Civic with a b-engine, if you can find one that isn't riced to hell and back, you want the sleeper. They aren't _that_ fast, but they are excellent for pissing off morons who spend way too much for dealer tuners. The demon would blow any Civic off the road, except the kind of people that buy it, won't know how to drive. Even with all the modern helpers, 808 ponies is going to be on the ragged edge of 'streetable'. No fun, at all, in traffic. I'd trailer it to the drag strip and install a cage before my first angry pass.
If I wanted a 808 HP challenger, I'd buy one with the right block and build the power myself.
Dealer tuners typically cost about (Base Cose + 5 * (RacePartsCost + ProInstallCost)), they only make any sense as collectables. Which, more or less, means they shouldn't be driven, beyond a few miles/month to keep the seals wet. Installing the cage would be a mistake. I'd buy the worn out 10 year old car with the right engine.
The old rule of thumb was: For popular motors, expect to spend about $1000/HP beyond 400 (obvious 'valid range' issues), if you want to be at the strip regularly. Pick your race class and bracket carefully or you will be broke with a garage full of parts but no running racecar. You will blow things up, it will suck. Using that math, buying the Demon can be a very expensive decision, but a numbers matching one will be worth a fortune in 40 years. Pulling the factory engine and setting it aside, would be the good move, if you're going to run it hard.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
You can have a FUN car, just not on public streets. Our roads are no place for having fun, its for the function of transporting humans and cargo as safely as possible. Your days are numbered. In our lifetime it will become prohibitively expensive to human-drive a car. Your insurance premiums will be insanely high when you become the biggest risk on the road by far. If you want to have adventures driving, go to the track.
Good-bye
I am fun, i jsut have no tolerance for people like you who think that driving is anything less than a serious responsibility. The sooner we get people like you out from behind the wheel, the better. You are going to be SHOCKED at how fast its going to happen. Insurance rates are all about numbers, and the instant the autonomous cars surpass human safety numbers, human-driving will be over. Insurance actuarial tables dont give a shit about your ego.. No argument for Liberty can silence the 30,00 dead every year from auto collisions. Enjoy it while you can, we are coming for exactly people like you who think 30,000 dead per year is somehow less important than being able to self-drive.
Good-bye