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Edward Snowden On Trump Administration's Recent Arrest of an Alleged Journalistic Source (freedom.press)

Snowden writes: Winner is accused of serving as a journalistic source for a leading American news outlet about a matter of critical public importance. For this act, she has been charged with violating the Espionage Act -- a World War I era law meant for spies -- which explicitly forbids the jury from hearing why the defendant acted, and bars them from deciding whether the outcome was to the public's benefit. This often-condemned law provides no space to distinguish the extraordinary disclosure of inappropriately classified information in the public interest -- whistleblowing -- from the malicious disclosure of secrets to foreign governments by those motivated by a specific intent to harm to their countrymen. The prosecution of any journalistic source without due consideration by the jury as to the harm or benefit of the journalistic activity is a fundamental threat to the free press. As long as a law like this remains on the books in a country that values fair trials, it must be resisted. No matter one's opinions on the propriety of the charges against her, we should all agree Winner should be released on bail pending trial. Even if you take all the government allegations as true, it's clear she is neither a threat to public safety nor a flight risk. To hold a citizen incommunicado and indefinitely while awaiting trial for the alleged crime of serving as a journalistic source should outrage us all.

342 comments

  1. A whole lot of nothing in the leak by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    C'mon, Snowden. She leaked because she's insane, not patriotic.

    1. Re:A whole lot of nothing in the leak by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 3, Insightful

      C'mon, Snowden. She leaked because she's insane, not patriotic.

      I don't know about insane, but certainly not very bright. From: Reality Winner, N.S.A. Contractor Accused of Leak, Was Undone by Trail of Clues

      Audit trails showed six people had printed copies, but only one — Ms. Winner — had also used a work computer to exchange emails with The Intercept. A search warrant application said she had found the report by plugging keywords into the N.S.A.’s system that fell outside her normal work duties — and had printed no other files.

      Dumb enough that either (a) she wanted to get caught or (b) it's been created to make the Trump administration look competent and tough.

      --
      It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    2. Re:A whole lot of nothing in the leak by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Snowden brings up good points about over-classification and the laws penalizing actual whistleblowing. But ultimately, you're right: this isn't a case of whistleblowing. This is a case of a deranged lunatic trying to damage the democratically elected President of the United States.

    3. Re:A whole lot of nothing in the leak by arth1 · · Score: 1

      I don't think an insanity plea is on the table here.
      Ignorant of the consequences, perhaps, but that's no defense.

    4. Re:A whole lot of nothing in the leak by NoNonAlphaCharsHere · · Score: 5, Funny

      or (b) it's been created to make the Trump administration look competent and tough.

      $DIETY, how I miss the quiet, towering intellectualism and sure, deft, thoughtful competence of the George W. Bush administration.

    5. Re:A whole lot of nothing in the leak by alvinrod · · Score: 2

      The sad thing is that the political landscape will somehow drag itself down to even lower depths and in sufficient time we'll find people legitimately pining for days of the Trump administration. We really need to get rid of our first past the post voting system, because combined with gerrymandering it basically ensures that we end up with a lot of crap ideologues from both parties.

    6. Re:A whole lot of nothing in the leak by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Informative

      I don't know about insane, but certainly not very bright.

      You must have missed that she loved Michael Moore, Bernie Sanders, loved BLM, and hated being White. Not a shred of sanity anywhere to be found in that one...

    7. Re:A whole lot of nothing in the leak by gnick · · Score: 2

      Ms. Winner’s apparent Twitter feed, which used a pseudonym but had a photo of her and the same account name as her Instagram feed...

      D'oh! The first rule of using a pseudonym...

      --
      He's getting rather old, but he's a good mouse.
    8. Re:A whole lot of nothing in the leak by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I don't know about insane, but certainly not very bright.

      If you look at her social media posts, it is clear that she was not emotionally stable and while her views were not particularly extreme, she was very passionate and riled up about even small issues. She should have had her security clearance revoked long ago.

      Way too much crap is classified, and because of that, way too many people have clearances.

      Disclaimer: I had a "secret" clearance for 15 years.

    9. Re:A whole lot of nothing in the leak by gnick · · Score: 2

      If you look at her social media posts, it is clear that she was not emotionally stable and while her views were not particularly extreme, she was very passionate and riled up about even small issues. She should have had her security clearance revoked long ago.

      I've seen clearances pulled for emotional instability before, but only when sparked by reported alcohol treatment. I don't know the extent that social media plays in determining somebody's fitness for a clearance with the NSA, but I have experience with the DoE. Social media wasn't brought up when I was evaluated for my "Q" back in 2002 nor did they ask about it during either of my 5-year reviews. I saw no mention of a social media check when I requested my 80+ page background investigation. (They talk to people I used to smoke pot with in high school but don't bother to check if I'm lauding Snowden as a hero on FB?) Different agencies may have different requirements.

      --
      He's getting rather old, but he's a good mouse.
    10. Re:A whole lot of nothing in the leak by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      The way I figure it, if Trump doesn't start a pre-emptive war, and badly botch a second war, then he's already ahead of the Bush administration. It doesn't take much to be ahead of the Bush administration, and you can be a loud-mouth and still do it. Trump still has time, though........

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    11. Re:A whole lot of nothing in the leak by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 4, Funny

      If you look at her social media posts, it is clear that she was not emotionally stable and while her views were not particularly extreme, she was very passionate and riled up about even small issues. She should have had her security clearance revoked long ago.

      I've seen clearances pulled for emotional instability before, but only when sparked by reported alcohol treatment. I don't know the extent that social media plays in determining somebody's fitness for a clearance with the NSA, but I have experience with the DoE.

      One thing is certain, it's not an issue for being President.

      --
      It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    12. Re:A whole lot of nothing in the leak by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If you look at her social media posts, it is clear that she was not emotionally stable and while her views were not particularly extreme, she was very passionate and riled up about even small issues. She should have had her security clearance revoked long ago.

      Some of that sounds like another Twitter user.

      --
      It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    13. Re:A whole lot of nothing in the leak by Fire_Wraith · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Revoking a clearance for political beliefs is some seriously dangerous ground. Where do you draw the line between someone with "acceptable" political beliefs or not? This is something that could cut both ways. Should someonwho was an active Tea Party/etc member during the Obama administration have had their clearance revoked? What part of anything she had done, up until the point she actually leaked classified information, would you suggest crossed a line?

      Unless the political activity itself is somehow actively seditious (like being a Communist during the Cold War, for instance) or otherwise links you to anti-government groups, I don't think you can simply use being politically active and motivated as a clearance determinant. Maybe if the activity itself somehow does, such as if someone was a diehard Wikileaks supporter or such - but certainly not for anything remotely mainstream.

    14. Re:A whole lot of nothing in the leak by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      Where do you draw the line between someone with "acceptable" political beliefs or not?

      Well, you could start with her actual behavior and words. Having a security clearance in an era where acts of terrorism by and on behalf of entities like Iran, or groups like ISIS actually, you know, kill lots of people and involve us putting a lot of effort into clandestinely trying to stop such things ... means that when someone like her cheers on Iran and its mullahs in social media, or says publicly that being white is an act of terrorism ... that pretty well defines someone whose judgement should not be trusted when it comes to maintaining the security of classified material.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    15. Re:A whole lot of nothing in the leak by interkin3tic · · Score: 2

      So would this be the "shooting the messenger" part of the cycle or the "blame the victim" part? I'm confused....

    16. Re:A whole lot of nothing in the leak by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Neither? The message is - yet again - a complete nothing. Apparently there were phishing emails sent to poll workers.

      So what?

      There are phishing messages sent to people all the time. There's no evidence that it was part of anything more sinister than trying to steal personal information for generic identity fraud, and the only "Russian" connection were IP addresses. So what? Computers in Russia can get hacked just like computers in the US.

      She broke the law to prove ... well, nothing. And now she's going to suffer the consequences, like anyone who mishandles classified information does. Well, should. Because there is of course another woman who failed to handle classified information who so far has been allowed to do it without consequence.

    17. Re:A whole lot of nothing in the leak by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      The Whistle Blows when you Blow The Whistle. It doesn't care why you blew it.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    18. Re:A whole lot of nothing in the leak by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 1

      So would this be the "shooting the messenger" part of the cycle or the "blame the victim" part? I'm confused....

      Neither. I was simply remarking that, if she didn't actually want to get caught, she should have thought it through better - like Snowden did. If she actually did what she did *how* she did it, and didn't expect to get caught, then she's an idiot. In addition to the fact that the NSA maintains search, printer and email logs, almost all color laser printers print their model and serial numbers in micro print on every freaking page.

      --
      It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    19. Re: A whole lot of nothing in the leak by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just about everybody gets a secret clearance, they practically give those away.

    20. Re:A whole lot of nothing in the leak by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If it is as you say, then you have nothing to fear from charging her with some other violation, one which doesn't explicitly forbid the jury from hearing why the defendant acted, and bars them from deciding whether the outcome was to the public's benefit.

    21. Re:A whole lot of nothing in the leak by PoopJuggler · · Score: 2

      She leaked because she's insane, not patriotic.

      The problem is that her jury will not get to hear both arguments.

    22. Re: A whole lot of nothing in the leak by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, and I miss the faux intellectualism (TelePrompTer left to TelePrompTer right) and total lack of anything even close to sane policy decisions by the Obama administration.

    23. Re:A whole lot of nothing in the leak by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The way I figure it, if Trump doesn't start a pre-emptive war, and badly botch a second war, then he's already ahead of the Bush administration. It doesn't take much to be ahead of the Bush administration, and you can be a loud-mouth and still do it. Trump still has time, though........

      Hey, Bush II only fucked up Iraq. And it could be argued he was left in a real shitty position there by his Daddy.

      But Obama fucked up Libya and Syria, giving the, errr, JV a place to grow and live. And Obama helped trigger the Russia-Ukraine war along the way (remember "Fuck the EU"? Well, it was "Fuck the EU" because the EU was smart enough not to do something that they knew would provoke war in Europe...). And Obama stood by while and/or allowed the Muslim Brotherhood to take over Egypt,

      So please, don't measure Trump against Bush II, measure him against Obama.

      And at least Bush II never promised to end "warrantless wiretaps" and then turn around and use them against US citizens, nevermind blowing US citizens up with drone strikes...

    24. Re:A whole lot of nothing in the leak by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Hey, Bush II only fucked up Iraq.

      He messed up really bad in Afghanistan.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    25. Re:A whole lot of nothing in the leak by gnick · · Score: 1

      I was simply remarking that, if she didn't actually want to get caught, she should have thought it through better - like Snowden did.

      If Snowden had really thought things through, he wouldn't be living in Moscow.

      --
      He's getting rather old, but he's a good mouse.
    26. Re:A whole lot of nothing in the leak by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Whistle Blows when you Blow The Whistle. It doesn't care why you blew it.

      That's what I've been telling my girlfriend!

    27. Re:A whole lot of nothing in the leak by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is a sad state of affairs when we have to hold our presidents to the standard of "not starting two wars that drag on for a decade."

    28. Re: A whole lot of nothing in the leak by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He is claiming starting off the forthcoming Qatar war already!

    29. Re:A whole lot of nothing in the leak by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Funny thing is she did not get arrested by Trump or the administration but by the FBI. When you break the law it is law enforcement that comes after you. If you listen to this kind of headline you would think that Trump had singled her out or something.

    30. Re:A whole lot of nothing in the leak by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is no argument she confessed. No need for a trial, just put her in jail.

    31. Re: A whole lot of nothing in the leak by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm thinking c). She got caught but evidence was fabricated and now she will be used to make an example of. It would be easier for her to be "suicidal," but intelligence agencies have lost too much footing to take the usual shortcut.

    32. Re: A whole lot of nothing in the leak by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As if the whole mess in Syria and Libya didn't originate with the invasion of Iraq. Isis is basically the old Saddam administration.

    33. Re:A whole lot of nothing in the leak by Etcetera · · Score: 1

      Funny thing is she did not get arrested by Trump or the administration but by the FBI. When you break the law it is law enforcement that comes after you. If you listen to this kind of headline you would think that Trump had singled her out or something.

      The FBI is part of the Executive Branch. Perhaps you missed that part in civics class.

    34. Re:A whole lot of nothing in the leak by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      Revoking a clearance for political beliefs is some seriously dangerous ground.

      I didn't say that. Her particular beliefs are NOT extreme. For instance, she opposes Keystone XL, and so do tens of millions of other Americans. It is the way she expresses her beliefs. She appears to be emotionally unhinged. She talks about stopping Keystone XL as if it was the most important issue in the history of the universe, when actually it is a silly symbolic issue that doesn't really matter at all. The oil is just going to continue to be transported by rail if isn't built. It is a politically manufactured issue like the spotted owl and Bears Ears.

    35. Re:A whole lot of nothing in the leak by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If he wasn't living in Moscow he'd be in a jail cell, or worse.
      The US grounded a foreign state's leader's plane on the suspicion that Snowden was aboard.

    36. Re:A whole lot of nothing in the leak by dbIII · · Score: 1

      If you look at her social media posts, it is clear that she was not emotionally stable

      I thought half the point of Bookface and the Twit thing was ranting anyway, so if all you had to go by was social media posts you'd assume that just about everyone is "not emotionally stable".

    37. Re: A whole lot of nothing in the leak by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You want to look back in history to support of your position? Ok. I would say the whole mess started with Iraq's invasion of Kuwait in 1991. The next step was the ill advised stoppage of the first war because of the political niceties afforded to all the other coalition countries who signed on to support the first war. Keeping in mind that while the US and the British did all the fighting while all the other coalition members basically stood back and held their coats. Fast forward a few years and the same coalition members refused to hold Iraq to the surrender terms at the end of the first war. Instead those stalwart ass hats polluting NY with their mere presence actively assisted Iraq in skirting the oil for food agreement to enrich themselves and provide a source of hard currency to Hussein. When Hussein knew he could depend on other countries to block any future attempt to enforce the surrender terms militarily he was free to do anything he wanted. If this sounds familiar it is because it was the exact thing that happened when the allies in WW1 refused to enforce the terms of their surrender which placed limits on Germany's armed forces and we all know what happened next. Back in the present the US and a few other countries wanted to hold Iraq to the terms of their surrender but were rebuffed by all the other corrupt and weak kneed pansies. So the US lays out all the proof that Iraq is violating every damn bullet item of the surrender terms and that is still not enough for people to do the right thing. Had those corrupt pussies taken a hard line from day one there would have never been a second war. But there was enough descent about forcing Iraq to adhere to the surrender terms that Hussein bet the farm that there would be no second invasion. Then on top of all the surrender terms being violated by Iraq the US presented speculative evidence of potential WMD's in Iraq to secure enough countries to go back to war. And of course the uneducated proles and professional protesters only acknowledge the war was over WMD. The undeniable evidence of Iraq violating the terms of surrender are never mentioned. The wars waging today are the direct result of a multitude of countries that were to weak to do the right thing even when the right thing would not have put them in any danger because most of them would just get in the way if they ever truly pitched in to any fighting. And a lot of countries, friend or foe, should not be to terribly surprised when the US stops asking for their opinions about anything of importance while also questioning why the US should spend lives and treasure protecting those that offer nothing in return.

    38. Re:A whole lot of nothing in the leak by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And I thought this info was already revealed partly before. They'd already said phishing emails were sent as this document says. It wasn't necessary to reveal it. There was an ongoing investigation anyway.

    39. Re:A whole lot of nothing in the leak by dbIII · · Score: 1

      I was simply remarking that, if she didn't actually want to get caught, she should have thought it through better - like Snowden did.

      If Snowden had really thought things through, he wouldn't be living in Moscow.

      He didn't expect the Chinese to turn on him.
      Would you?

    40. Re:A whole lot of nothing in the leak by michael.karl.coleman · · Score: 1

      Security clearances aren't about being "fair". They're simply about an estimate of the likelihood that the subject will turn out to be a bad actor, able to be compromised, etc. Fairness isn't a part of that.

    41. Re:A whole lot of nothing in the leak by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It wasn't brought up in 2002? I wonder why? That was 15 years ago. I don't know when social media became a "thing" but it was certainly after 2002.

    42. Re:A whole lot of nothing in the leak by gnick · · Score: 1

      My first 5-year review was in 2007. My second was in 2012. Social media certainly was a thing.

      --
      He's getting rather old, but he's a good mouse.
    43. Re:A whole lot of nothing in the leak by bongey · · Score: 1

      Revoking clearances for political beliefs is COMPLETELY WARRANTED. Being a left wing SJW that thinks the US Government is horrible and that you hate the current president and love Iran.

    44. Re: A whole lot of nothing in the leak by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Go die in a fire. *Any* means that can remove Trump from power are legitimate, including genocide.

    45. Re: A whole lot of nothing in the leak by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      She said that in a war between America and Iran, she would fight for Iran.

      Her views are extreme. It's appalling and shocking that this insane cunt had TSC.

    46. Re:A whole lot of nothing in the leak by sabbede · · Score: 1
      It wasn't really whistle blowing though. She didn't expose any wrongdoing by the government, she released evidence tied to an ongoing investigation. That's bad for the investigation.

      What Snowden did was reveal ongoing, unconstitutional, secret surveillance - wrongdoing. This turd released information on something being investigated by the FBI and a half-dozen congressional committees. She had avenues available to get this directly to them, but gave it to the press instead.

      Her intent and the effect of her actions was to circumvent the investigatory process before giving it a chance. If, after the investigations concluded and the findings made public, no mention was made of this evidence then she might have had some justification. But she acted out of her own personal biases and jumped the gun.

    47. Re: A whole lot of nothing in the leak by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A DOS prompt! It's a troll! A troll!

    48. Re: A whole lot of nothing in the leak by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Be that as it may, the question is not whether what she did is unlawful and somewhat stupid (it almost certainly is), but whether it amounts to espionage and warrants taking away her right of due process (hell,no!)

    49. Re:A whole lot of nothing in the leak by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dumb enough that either (a) she wanted to get caught or (b) it's been created to make the Trump administration look competent and tough.

      or she doesn't exist at all and is a "deep state" tool to lend credibility to the story they want out there. Leakers with strange names that sound like project codewords are going to be the new "anonymous officials".

    50. Re:A whole lot of nothing in the leak by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 1

      He messed up really bad in Afghanistan.

      How?

      And before you answer that, consider that everybody who has ever invaded Afghanistan has never succeeded. I'd say based on that and how our efforts have turned out, we've done pretty well there.

    51. Re:A whole lot of nothing in the leak by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It all depends on whether the driving concern of the political establishment is national interest or party interest. We've crossed a threshold now where the party of Ronald Reagan considers working with Putin to be preferable to working with those of us on the other side of the aisle. Ever since that time, we've been pretending to be a country/civilization when in fact, we effectively stopped doing that years ago.

    52. Re:A whole lot of nothing in the leak by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      The problem I was referring to was when he turned the attention to Iraq, before finishing up in Afghanistan. To Bush's credit, once things got really bad, he took the necessary steps to turn things around, but arguably he prolonged the conflict by a decade when he ignored it for Iraq.

      Another question is whether it was even necessary to conquer Afghanistan, or if we should have just focused on getting Bin Ladin.

      Then of course, it's a smaller issue but his diplomacy when he invaded Afghanistan sucked. A little better coordination would have kept our allies happy.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  2. Re: edward snowden iis a TRAITOR! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    IIS Traitor? Is he using Apache now?

    Well, good for him, I guess.

  3. Right by SETY · · Score: 4, Insightful

    He is right. Snowden is not a disinterested party, but he is still right.

    1. Re:Right by jedidiah · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Not sure this qualifies as whistle blowing. It certainly does qualify as violation of her security clearance and there are legal consequences for that. Everyone with a clearance knows this. Everyone that works with people with a clearance knows this.

      Serious crusaders have never had any problem facing the consequences of their actions.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    2. Re:Right by i_ate_god · · Score: 4, Insightful

      > Not sure this qualifies as whistle blowing.

      And the point of the article was to let a jury decide that.

      --
      I'm god, but it's a bit of a drag really...
    3. Re:Right by Calydor · · Score: 2

      But should violating your security clearance cost you the right to a fair trial with a jury of your peers?

      --
      -=This sig has nothing to do with my comment. Move along now=-
    4. Re:Right by Obfuscant · · Score: 5, Informative

      He is right. Snowden is not a disinterested party, but he is still right.

      Actually, he is quite wrong, starting with his initial representation of the matter.

      "Winner is accused of serving as a journalistic source for a leading American news outlet about a matter of critical public importance. For this act, she has been charged with violating the Espionage Act..."

      No. She was not charged with espionage for being a journalistic source, she was charged with espionage for releasing classified material. She could have been a journalistic source all day every day for ten years and been untouched by the Espionage Act, if she had not deliberately mishandled classified material. That, and not "acting as a journalistic source", is the act for which she is charged.

      The problem with the excuse that it was "inappropriately classified" is that Winner did not have the authority to reclassify it, and did not have the background necessary to know if it was properly classified or not.

      What is it these days? Some people cry "treason" when an authorized representative of the US government tells another government intel about a common enemy, and excuses when an unauthorized flunky releases actual classified material.

    5. Re:Right by hey! · · Score: 4, Insightful

      There is nothing that says that whistleblowing has to be legal; in fact in repressive regimes it's always illegal.

      Daniel Ellsberg certainly broke the law when he leaked the Pentagon Papers. But he was no traitor -- at least not to the country. Ellsberg was a very senior person who knew exactly what he was doing and measured his actions very precisely to avoid harming US security interests. People were furious when they learned how dishonest their government had been.

      Classification is neither here nor there as far as whistleblowing is concerned. The strongest argument against Reality Winner being a whistleblower is that she didn't reveal any US government wrongdoing. She didn't even reveal any wrongdoing by Donald Trump, his campaign, or transition team.

      She clearly is no Daniel Ellsberg; she's more like Chelsea Manning, well-meaning but naive and inexperienced. While she wasn't so foolish as to reveal any methods or resources, we can't be certain whether Russia was aware we were onto them.

      Overall I have mixed feelings. On one hand what she did has counterintelligence implications. But you have to weigh the value of the public knowing that the Russians really were meddling. There has been an active campaign to paint that as paranoia. It's good that we know, but we can't really be sure what the cost was.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    6. Re:Right by rahvin112 · · Score: 1

      The Espionage Act prevents the jury from hearing any of the details of the case such was motive or why the defendant might have done it. At that point it's a drumhead trial and you're tossing out that whole fair trial thing.

    7. Re:Right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are sort of missing the important point. Laws are written by humans, and thus they are as imperfect as humans. Any law that does now allow consideration of all circumstances is unjust. The world is not black and white.

    8. Re:Right by inicom · · Score: 1

      ...and his characterization of the Intercept as a "leading American news outlet". Ha!

      but otherwise I believe you are correct. Her actions if accurately reported did not constitute anything that could be justified under whistleblowers by any stretch, and she did clearly violate her security clearance and responsibilities.

      At least, unlike Snowden, she didn't in it for self-aggrandizement and more nefarious purposes.

      --
      -a.e.mossberg
    9. Re:Right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's amazing how easy it is to spot a Trump apologist.

    10. Re:Right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think the point he's trying to make is that there's a big difference between leaking classified material to a journalist & stealing secrets on behalf of a foreign government, but under the Espionage Act, there is no difference.

      With other crimes, murder being the obvious one, the question of motive is a major consideration in determining the severity of the offense and the ultimate punishment. Why shouldn't the same consideration apply in a case of leaking classified material?

    11. Re:Right by swillden · · Score: 1

      Some people cry "treason" when an authorized representative of the US government tells another government intel about a common enemy

      Trump's sharing of intel with the Russian diplomats was in no way treasonous. Not only is the president the ultimate classification authority, able to classify or declassify anything he likes, for any reason at all, the constitution defines treason as giving aid and comfort to an enemy. Given that Russia is not our enemy (arguably, we don't even have any enemies at the moment), it's flatly impossible for any US citizen to be guilty of treason for any information they give to the Russians. Which isn't to say they can't be guilty of a crime (e.g. espionage), just that it's not treason.

      No, Trump's comments weren't treasonous, or indeed anything other than perfectly and completely legal. They were just stupid. Not because it was stupid to share intel with Russia, but because the way Trump did it was both ineffective and damaging to US interests. It was ineffective because verbal delivery creates lots of opportunity for error in relaying the information, especially when one or both sides are represented by people who are not intelligence professionals. It was damaging because it put sources and methods needlessly at risk and, worse, put an ally's sources and methods at risk, without the permission of the ally in question.

      The right way to do it would have been for Trump to direct his National Security Advisor to have a brief prepared. US intelligence officials would have created a thorough and carefully-vetted document that precisely described what was and wasn't known, what was inferred and why, and what level of confidence should be placed on each part of the information. They would also have sanitized it as necessary to prevent any unnecessary revelation of sources and methods. If sources and methods disclosure were required, they'd have carefully limited the degree of damage to exactly that required, and if it were necessary to disclose the ally who provided the information, they'd have vetted the disclosure with the ally, or at least have made sure that the decisionmaker who decided to throw the ally under the bus did it in full cognizance of the potential damage. For example, they'd have made sure that he understood that merely not mentioning Israel by name would not prevent it from being clear that Israel provided the information.

      Even if if Trump were a brilliant and insightful man, rather than the puerile idiot that he is, he simply doesn't have the experience or training to know how to deliver such a brief effectively and safely. A competent, or even non-moronic, individual would have realized the limits of his own expertise in the course of his regular intelligence briefings, and would have deferred the job to the experts. Well, assuming he actually paid attention to the briefings for more than to see how many times his own name occurred in the single-page summary that his subordinates have realized is the limit of his attention span.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    12. Re: Right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No. Wrong.

      Manning was exposing a cover up and corruption. Snowden as well.

      This hideous lunatic leaked intelligence we had on Russia, and said that she would fight against America in a war with Iran.

      She is a traitor. She should be hanging from a lamppost.

    13. Re:Right by martinfb · · Score: 1

      Seconded.

      Further, if the leadership is that afraid of having cases like this publicly heard, then it is very likely there is something they wish to keep hidden from their constituents; which would likely expose their abuses.

      --


      Self-importance and self-indulgence is the root of ALL evil.
    14. Re: Right by hey! · · Score: 1

      I never said Manning wasn't a whistleblower. Only that she was naive and inexperienced -- and vulnerable.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    15. Re:Right by beheaderaswp · · Score: 1

      There is nothing that says that whistleblowing has to be legal; in fact in repressive regimes it's always illegal.

      I would argue that the US government is already repressive both to people- and politics which does not meet the jingoistic political views of either party.

      --
      Another consultant who stuck it out.

      "We are the Priests, of the Temples of Syrinx..."
    16. Re:Right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It certainly does qualify as violation of her security clearance and there are legal consequences for that. Everyone with a clearance knows this. Everyone that works with people with a clearance knows this.

      So how come Hillary isn't in jail? She knew what she was doing was a security violation. She had clearance she knew this just like this woman. She leaks ONE document and goes to jail. Hillary mis-handled over 30,000 classified documents and get off scott free.

      What was that about laws are the same for everyone?

    17. Re:Right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you don't think that exposing the fact that a foreign power selected our president is something worth blowing a whistle about, then quite frankly, fuck you.

  4. Deep State Press by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sorry, you don't get to give out classified information, not even to CIA owned propaganda organizations.

    Enjoy your time in Leavenworth!

    1. Re: Deep State Press by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You get to get an all expenses paid reassignment surgery though.

    2. Re:Deep State Press by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Sorry, you don't get to give out classified information, not even to CIA owned propaganda organizations.

      Enjoy your time in Leavenworth!

      According to Snowden's logic, any leak is legal, no matter what information it is, as long as you leak it to a news organization.

    3. Re:Deep State Press by mellon · · Score: 1

      To put it another way, Snowden is saying that in order for it to be espionage, you have to have actually transferred the secret to a foreign government; if we are not allowed to consider the motivation for the release, then we can't establish that as a matter of fact. Of course we can always _say_ that a journalist is actually an agent of a foreign government, but under the espionage act we aren't even allowed to address that question.

    4. Re:Deep State Press by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >If you are against leaks attempting to undermine the elected government of your own country you are a traitor.

      Nah. You might hang, though.

    5. Re:Deep State Press by i_ate_god · · Score: 1

      No it's not. According to Snowden's logic, a jury should decide on whether this is malicious or whistleblowing for the greater good.

      --
      I'm god, but it's a bit of a drag really...
    6. Re:Deep State Press by spire3661 · · Score: 1

      Thats pretty much common law, Juries are supposed to judge both the accused and the law itself. That is their exact function in our society.

      --
      Good-bye
    7. Re:Deep State Press by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Espionage is one crime, but not the one under examination. We are talking about the illegal release of classified information.

    8. Re:Deep State Press by Jason+Levine · · Score: 1

      Except that the law she's charged under explicitly keeps the jury from considering WHY she did it. If it's shown that she did it (and it's pretty clear she did it), then she's guilty of espionage under the law no matter what her motivation. It catches spies and whistle-blowers in the same net.

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    9. Re:Deep State Press by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No matter what happens after the information is released publically the damage is done. If the released information does not rise to the standard of being classified in the first place then any fallout in regards to state security is basically non-existent. However, if the information released ends up being something akin to the countries nuclear launch codes or the names and addresses of undercover intelligence operatives abroad then the damage can be substantial. That's why the penalties are stiff for releasing any classified information and reason someone leaked the information cannot be used in court. The Constitution and Bill of Rights are not suicide pacts and the foreign intelligence agencies tasked with providing national security have specific exceptions codified in the law that supersede the rights granted by the Constitution and Bill of Rights. The people incapable of understanding why this is necessary are living in a fantasy world where the only evil they see in the world is the US. The kind of people whose knowledge of history only goes back 5 years and their current knowledge of how the world works comes from Twitter or their favorite web provided echo chamber where everyone agrees with them.

    10. Re:Deep State Press by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1

      Snowden appears to be arguing that she should be able to use a necessity defense; i.e provide justification for her acts and thus not guilty of a crime. That generally, IIRC, requires you to prove that you 1) acted to prevent a great harm by doing a lesser one; 2) you had no legal way to prevent the harm; 3) the danger was imminent.

      If you can't prove all 3 the courts won't let you present that defense; so the prohibition in this case is not unique. What is different is Congress decided to codify it's prohibition into law rather than rely on the common law. Under those circumstances, I would think SCOTUS would defer to Congress and uphold the law since it is a codification of common law.

      Independent of the rightness or wrongness of he actions; I would guess she would have a hard time proving all 3 criteria were met. Any harm had already passed and there was no imminent danger of it continuing, and she had a legal means to raise concerns. The reality of the situation appears to be she was pissed over the election and decided to do something; an act of civil disobedience that resulted in her arrest.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    11. Re:Deep State Press by drnb · · Score: 1

      No it's not. According to Snowden's logic, a jury should decide on whether this is malicious or whistleblowing for the greater good.

      With respect to national security matters whistleblowing would be going to Congress not the press. Plus there is the issue of waving certain rights when you voluntarily enter into a contract with the military or intelligence agencies.

      Also for trials involving classified material shouldn't a jury of peers be people with an appropriate security clearance and not the general public? ;-)

    12. Re:Deep State Press by ScentCone · · Score: 2

      No, juries are NOT supposed to judge the law. That's what challenges, brought as necessary before voters (to change out the legislature to one that might change the law) or through constitutionality tests before courts (up to the SCOTUS) are for. The jury is supposed to do what the judge says: evaluate whether or not the prosecution has shown that the defendant broke the law. Period. That is the "exact function" of the jury, and we have other mechanisms in place with the "exact function" of changing laws or, if they are unconstitutional, dismantling them in whole or in part.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    13. Re:Deep State Press by drnb · · Score: 1

      Thats pretty much common law, Juries are supposed to judge both the accused and the law itself. That is their exact function in our society.

      Its also common law to hang traitors. You sure you want to go the medieval historical precedent path? :-)

    14. Re:Deep State Press by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...supersede the rights granted by the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

      Thus proving that you're an idiot.

      The kind of people whose knowledge of history only goes back 5 years...

      That's especially rich considering the foot-in-your-mouth statement above. You are very clearly one of the people of whom you speak, and Dunning-Kruger is obviously in full effect here.

      It's no wonder this country is so screwed up when people like you, who have no fucking idea what they're talking about, feel that they should be lecturing others on The Way Things Are.

    15. Re:Deep State Press by cayenne8 · · Score: 1

      No, juries are NOT supposed to judge the law. That's what challenges, brought as necessary before voters (to change out the legislature to one that might change the law) or through constitutionality tests before courts (up to the SCOTUS) are for. The jury is supposed to do what the judge says: evaluate whether or not the prosecution has shown that the defendant broke the law. Period. That is the "exact function" of the jury, and we have other mechanisms in place with the "exact function" of changing laws or, if they are unconstitutional, dismantling them in whole or in part.

      While I agree with much of what you say, and I do think they should throw the book at her.....

      ....there is Jury Nullification as an outside possibility for a juror to consider, although most of them don't know it.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    16. Re:Deep State Press by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To be fair, Congress has no authority to limit what you say or print, as per the 1st amendment.

      Treason (defined in the Constitution and not by an act of Congress) requires you to aid an enemy of the United States specifically to prevent Congress from being able to define it any otehr way.

      Calling it "espionage" shouldn't circumvent either limitation, and you in fact should have to actually hand the information over to an enemy of the US for it to be illegal at which point it's "Treason".

      Also the concept that informing the generl public what their government is actually doing is a crime is rather not compatible with a democracy.

    17. Re:Deep State Press by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The Constitution and Bill of Rights are not suicide pacts

      You're right, they aren't. If they are leading us down a bad path, there are processes in place for amending the Constitution. But you wanna know what is a suicide pact? Anything that's been steamrolled through those processes.

    18. Re:Deep State Press by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...the foreign intelligence agencies tasked with providing national security have specific exceptions codified in the law that supersede the rights granted by the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

      Well, then it seems they are unconstitutional.

    19. Re:Deep State Press by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      Knowing about jury nullification is a good means to get disqualified from jury service. Simply hint that you know what it is and you are out the door.

    20. Re:Deep State Press by cayenne8 · · Score: 1

      Knowing about jury nullification is a good means to get disqualified from jury service. Simply hint that you know what it is and you are out the door.

      Note to Self....remember in case of selection for jury duty next time.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    21. Re:Deep State Press by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nope. The finder of law is the Judge, and in cases of appeal the appellate judges. The Jury is the finder of fact, that is they are to decide on the facts of the case, i.e. which facts are true.
      Jury Nullification is a revolt of subversion of their role when they find against the facts in an attempt to undermine the finder of law. Most judges will find a lawyer in contempt who try to solicit a jury to attempt subversion of a verdict through nullification.
      In plain language Jury Nullification happens when the facts say the accused committed the crime, the jury believes the accused committed the crime, but the jury returns Not Guilty so as to prevent the accused from being punished. This happens because the jury members believe the accused was justified in committing the crime or they believe the crime is flawed. Neither reason is justifiable since it is not the jury's job to prevent punishment nor is it their job to decide whether the law is a good law or not.

  5. Let's shift context by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 2

    If you replace "serve as a journalistic source" with "feed their family" and "disclosed classified data" with "stole/dealt drugs", I think you end up with a far more sympathetic case for miscarriage of justice. Of course, not one that affects Snowden personally, so, you know.

    --
    Your ad here. Ask me how!
    1. Re:Let's shift context by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And if you replace "feed their family" with "detonated a IED in a public location" and "stole/dealt drugs" with "accessed information on the Internet" you would end up with yet another story that has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand.

    2. Re:Let's shift context by Calydor · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The drug dealer gets to have a jury, though.

      --
      -=This sig has nothing to do with my comment. Move along now=-
    3. Re:Let's shift context by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That substitution isn't just changing the context - it's changing absolutely everything.

      In this case, "serve as a journalistic source" is what she was arrested and is being prosecuted for, where "disclosed classified data" is the explanation of why it's bad in this case.

      With your example we'd have someone on trial for feeding her family, with prosecution saying that the defendant is not entitled to a jury when she defends herself because she allegedly stole and/or dealt drugs in order to do so.

      The two flaws with that are (1) the defendant would be charged with drug possession/dealing, not with "feeding her family", and - most importantly - (2) if you're accused of drug-related crimes you're still entitled to a jury.

      Really, the whole argument is about the jury.

    4. Re:Let's shift context by drnb · · Score: 1

      The drug dealer gets to have a jury, though.

      The drug dealer didn't voluntarily sign a contract with the government agreeing to have some rights waived, as people who voluntarily enter the military or intelligence agencies do.

    5. Re:Let's shift context by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

      Just what don't you understand about the word "unalienable"? Or are of you the opinion that slave ownership contracts were perfectly valid, and hence A-ok? The government doesn't have the authority to construct a contract that waives your right to fair trial.

    6. Re:Let's shift context by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I didn't think you were allowed to sign unalienable rights away. You can't legally sell yourself into slavery, but you can sign away your right to a trial?

    7. Re:Let's shift context by drnb · · Score: 1

      "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

      Just what don't you understand about the word "unalienable"? The government doesn't have the authority to construct a contract that waives your right to fair trial.

      Your citation omitted "... that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness". A "fair trial", the protection of "Liberty", is generally considered one that presumes innocence and follows a "due process". That "due process" is not necessarily one that involves a jury for example. And the rules and details of that "due process", and also what is or is not a crime, can vary considerably by signing a contract with the US government. For example when you exchange normal civil law when you voluntarily join the military and become subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice rather than normal civil law. In effect you have waived some of the protection and privileges of civil law. Similarly some protections and privileges are waived when one voluntarily seeks and acquires a security clearance.

    8. Re:Let's shift context by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Winner could have had a jury, too. In each case, the jury would decide whether Winner sold illegal drugs or the drug dealer leaked classified information, and that would determine the verdict. No difference.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    9. Re:Let's shift context by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Now they just need jurors who also were party to that contract. If they aren't, then they'll have to acquit.

    10. Re: Let's shift context by KGIII · · Score: 1

      Sure can.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    11. Re:Let's shift context by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Petraeus did the same only with far more sensitive material and he had a jury.

    12. Re:Let's shift context by drnb · · Score: 1

      Petraeus did the same only with far more sensitive material and he had a jury.

      Petraeus plead guilty, there was no trial, no jury. He also mishandled information by sharing it with someone who was a Lieutenant Colonel in the Army and possessed a security clearance, that is quite different than sharing it with the press.

    13. Re:Let's shift context by dbIII · · Score: 1

      He shared it to a journalist for sex you tool.
      It's astonishing how partisan people are getting here now.

    14. Re:Let's shift context by drnb · · Score: 1

      He shared it to a journalist for sex you tool. It's astonishing how partisan people are getting here now.

      That "journalist" was a long term lover (mistress) who was also a Lieutenant Colonel in the Army Reserve with a security clearance who was working on his biography. Such biographies go through a Pentagon approval process to avoid accidental disclosures of classified information. And again, he pleaded guilty to misdemeanor mishandling so there was no trial.

      The two situations are nothing alike.

      You might want to re-think who is being the partisan here.

    15. Re:Let's shift context by dbIII · · Score: 1

      From your apology for a real felony far greater than anything people have imagined about Hillary's email, and for the most base of motives, you have made it extremely clear how partisan you are.
      Manning was guilty of far less, leaked far less sensitive material and had far purer motives yet spent years imprisoned.

    16. Re:Let's shift context by dbIII · · Score: 1

      So he did absolutely nothing wrong?
      Then why was he fired, why did it go to court and why was he found guilty?
      The reality denial here is utterly astonishing - all so that felon can be dusted off and given a prime job instead of it being given to someone who can be trusted.

    17. Re:Let's shift context by drnb · · Score: 1

      So he did absolutely nothing wrong? Then why was he fired, why did it go to court and why was he found guilty?

      He plead guilty to misdemeanor mishandling, obviously he did some wrong. However it was nothing like this new NSA contractor's case and you were absolutely wrong regarding Petraeus having had a jury trial.

    18. Re:Let's shift context by drnb · · Score: 1

      From your apology for a real felony far greater than anything people have imagined about Hillary's email, and for the most base of motives, you have made it extremely clear how partisan you are. Manning was guilty of far less, leaked far less sensitive material and had far purer motives yet spent years imprisoned.

      Sorry, the partisanship is demonstrated by you in your equating these cases. This new NSA contractor and Manning released the classified information to the public. Petraeus leaked it to a fellow Army officer working on his biography, a biography that would go through a Pentagon approval process. Still wrong, but nothing like the two public disclosures.

    19. Re:Let's shift context by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't think that in 21 century signing away the right to a fair trial should be valid. Should it be OK to be able to sign away your right to live? And if you do, should the other party be excused when enforcing what you signed away? The right to live and the right to a fair trial look pretty close to me in context of a civilized country (not shure that this apply here though).

    20. Re:Let's shift context by dbIII · · Score: 1

      My point is that he would not have been denied a jury trial given the charge.
      Nasty of you to try to twist it another way just to cheer for a convicted felon just because he's a member of your political tribe.

    21. Re:Let's shift context by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "among these" - mean it is an example - a subset, not a specific enumeration.
      The rest of these unalienable rights are spelt out quite clearly in the Bill of Rights.

      If you read the 5th amendment, you'll see there is an exception specifically carved out in it for the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

      As for what "due process" actually means, it's worthwhile to examine it's origin - the Magna Carta of 1215 which protected free people from "illegal imprisonment". That to me implies the need for a fair trial. I consider a trial where the defendant is not allowed to state his case to be well outside such a definition every bit as much as "the king is the law". Imagine if the corrupt congress passed a law saying: "anyone who the prosecutor thinks is guilty is guilty, does not need to go to the courts, and enforcement of penalties, including capital punishment, can occur immediately" and some prosecutor went on a homicidal rampage, would that qualify since it was legally sanctioned under due process (if neither "fairness" nor "trial" is not an essential component of the definition of it)?

    22. Re:Let's shift context by drnb · · Score: 1

      My point is that he would not have been denied a jury trial given the charge. Nasty of you to try to twist it another way just to cheer for a convicted felon just because he's a member of your political tribe.

      Actually he is not part of my political tribe. I'm just being objective. You were simply wrong about Petraeus having a jury. As many are wrong that a jury is always available, as many are wrong that some rights can not be voluntarily waived through contract with the government (military enlistment, security clearance, etc.)

    23. Re:Let's shift context by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Actually he is not part of my political tribe

      Nice try, but the piles of blatantly partisan shit you have sprayed around argue otherwise.

    24. Re:Let's shift context by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not being able to explain your ideological motivation for an illegal act does not sound like being denied a fair trial. Judges and juries are there to decide the facts of the case, guilt or innocence, in this case whether the information was knowingly and intentionally passed to the journalist. Why it was passed does not alter the fact that it was or was not, no evidence of this fact is being denied. Where ideological motivations become relevant is in sentencing. So these ideological motivations have a role in a fair trial, just not in the fact determination phase.

  6. Trump deserves the same treatment as Winner by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    If she deserves to be locked up for her crime, certainly the fat orange traitor deserves similar accommodations.

    1. Re:Trump deserves the same treatment as Winner by Mashiki · · Score: 0, Offtopic
      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    2. Re:Trump deserves the same treatment as Winner by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Considering Al Qaeda's roots are as a CIA/ISI proxy in Afghanistan after the Soviet invasion, no, it did not start with Obama. US support for terrorism didn't start with Reagan, Carter or Ford, either...

    3. Re:Trump deserves the same treatment as Winner by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For what crime, exactly?

      Hurting your feelings?

    4. Re:Trump deserves the same treatment as Winner by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Colluding with Russia to undermine our democracy.

  7. Snowden's hypocrisy knows no bounds by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Way to go Snowden - hiding in a country that has little/no freedom of press and attacking a country prosecuting an individual for releasing state secrets/classified information. NSA contractors know that they will handle classified information - which by its very nature is information that is not allowed to be released to the public. That's what they agree to when they sign up - and now he's advocating for allowing contractors to release whatever information they feel like for 'Freedom of Press' reasons? Sorry buddy - you're out to lunch. State secrets and classified information is needed for a country to function - otherwise you might as well just tear it apart and offer it up to whoever has the most muscle.

    1. Re:Snowden's hypocrisy knows no bounds by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your mom knows no bounds. She's up for anything.

    2. Re:Snowden's hypocrisy knows no bounds by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Whether or not material *is* classified is irrelevant - what matters is if it *should* be classified.

      If the Government conducted oh let's say involuntary medical trials on blacks, and classified it, would you then say - hey, it's classified, how DARE you release it, all Governments MUST have classified information to function?

      Of course not.

      Your comment about Snowden being in Russia is staggeringly inappropriate. He is there because he has nowhere else to go, and that's because the USA cancelled his passport - because he released information of their appalling behaviour.

      The action - mass survellience (and until Snowden came along, secret mass survillience) - is wrong, because the the vast majority of the people being watched, having their privacy violated, have done and will never do anything wrong. It is a violation of the principle that everyone two parties do together must be voluntary and well-informed, except in self-defence. It is the same principle which makes involuntary medical experimentation wrong.

    3. Re:Snowden's hypocrisy knows no bounds by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny

      What is wrong with involuntary medical experiments? I still think that the mentally challenged (people with IQ's below 95) should be sterilized against their will. For the betterment of the USA.

      It is purely a coincidence that most black people have an IQ below 75.

    4. Re:Snowden's hypocrisy knows no bounds by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      NSA contractors know that they will handle classified information - which by its very nature is information that is not allowed to be released to the public. That's what they agree to when they sign up - and now he's advocating for allowing contractors to release whatever information they feel like for 'Freedom of Press' reasons? Sorry buddy - you're out to lunch. State secrets and classified information is needed for a country to function - otherwise you might as well just tear it apart and offer it up to whoever has the most muscle.

      If you learn of state secrets where the US constitution (#1 "supreme" law of the land) is being violated, would you say that secrecy overrides the constitution? If so, our legal foundations are in big trouble.

    5. Re:Snowden's hypocrisy knows no bounds by interkin3tic · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Way to go Snowden - hiding in a country that has little/no freedom of press and attacking a country prosecuting an individual for releasing state secrets/classified information.

      Did he defend his host in any way? No? Then the implied hypocrisy is bullshit. And that's before we get to the fact that he's only in Russia because we canceled his passport before he could leave Russia.

      State secrets and classified information is needed for a country to function - otherwise you might as well just tear it apart and offer it up to whoever has the most muscle.

      In what way is the country functioning now? Republicans are only interested in helping their party and destroying anyone outside their tribe. We have a president elected despite losing by 3 million votes. We're unable to agree with everyone else and a majority of our citizens that yes, healthcare is something that is important and yes, dumping excess carbon dioxide into the atmosphere is a bad thing. We don't have a functioning state department and are actively turning on our allies. Did a foreign power decide our election? Dunno, the unelected party is preventing any serious investigation.

      The country is being fucked up by powerful people, it has nothing to do Reality.

    6. Re:Snowden's hypocrisy knows no bounds by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      Whether or not material *is* classified is irrelevant - what matters is if it *should* be classified.

      Nonsense. It is not the job of every NSA contractor to make decisions about the classification level of the material they have access to. What you are saying, in effect, is that every person who handles a piece of classified material has the authority to declassify it if they want to. Really? I worked in a government comm center that sometimes handled top secret material. Was I authorized to declassify and disseminate that information if I felt like it was inappropriately classified?

    7. Re:Snowden's hypocrisy knows no bounds by cayenne8 · · Score: 1

      Republicans are only interested in helping their party and destroying anyone outside their tribe.

      I would posit that the Democrats are absolutely doing 100% the same thing.

      We're unable to agree with everyone else and a majority of our citizens that yes, healthcare is something that is important

      I"m not sure what your "agree with everyone else" means, I'm assuming you mean "the world" and other countries, which have absolutely NO stake in things here one way or another, and shouldn't. We don't rule ourselves based on what the rest of the world thinks, if we did, we might as well not be a sovereign country at all.....but that aside, I don't think anyone in the US doesn't think healthcare is important, but not everyone believes it should be socialized, nor who exactly is to pay for it. The US comes from a LONG individualistic culture (as opposed to Europe, etc) and tradition and many of the proposed solutions butt heads with that, hence the debate and lack of a quick solution.

      ...umping excess carbon dioxide into the atmosphere is a bad thing.

      Well, the US has done a LOT to clean up its act in this area, I think it's not a bad idea to see and ensure other countries step up and do their part in a verifiable way, before we put ourselves under even more regulation/fiscal/business stress...since we are in competition economically with those other countries.

      Frankly, until they address what is pretty much the WORST polluter for greenhouse gasses, animal food production (cow farts, etc)....I'm not putting quite all my stock in having us shut down our energy industries. Get them to address that and then I"ll pay a bit more attention, as that that is pretty much the world's largest hazard to date.

      We don't have a functioning state department and are actively turning on our allies.

      I'll go along with you hear on this one....I wish the President would get the fuck OFF twitter, and act like a president, and leader, delegating authority more to experts, and not flying off the handle before giving things serious consideration and research.

      I believe in a LOT of things he could be doing, having both houses, but keeps fscking his own agenda up with his own acts.

      Did a foreign power decide our election? Dunno, the unelected party is preventing any serious investigation.

      Did Russia try to influence our election, I'm pretty sure they did...Hell, "we" have tried influencing elections all around the world ourselves in the past, and likely have with Russia too.

      That being said, I don't see any collusion between the Trump campaign and the Russians yet in that attempted meddling.

      I have no doubts the Russians tried to meddle, but that's an entirely different thing than one of the presidential candidates trying to collude and work with them...and there just seems to be little to no evidence of that at this time. But, with 2 congressional investigations going, if it is there, they should find it, if not...drop it and let the govt move on to do the work it was elected to do.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    8. Re: Snowden's hypocrisy knows no bounds by Tinsoldier314 · · Score: 1

      Come to think of it I do wish your parents were sterilized. Oh well there is still time to perform the procedure on you!

      I'm surprised the guy making a sardonic comment (a proud slashdot tradition amirite) got downvoted more than the guy promoting eugenics and phrenology.

    9. Re:Snowden's hypocrisy knows no bounds by WaffleMonster · · Score: 1

      That's what they agree to when they sign up - and now he's advocating for allowing contractors to release whatever information they feel like for 'Freedom of Press' reasons?

      The answer for anyone who has read TFA or even the summary is clearly NO.

      Snowden is asserting espionage act is not the appropriate venue since it was intended for espionage and prevents defense from arguing mitigating circumstances. Something even defendants in a murder trial are able to do.

      Sorry buddy - you're out to lunch. State secrets and classified information is needed for a country to function - otherwise you might as well just tear it apart and offer it up to whoever has the most muscle.

      Your conclusions are based entirely on a false premise. Snowden openly admits what he did was wrong.

    10. Re:Snowden's hypocrisy knows no bounds by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you advocating sterilizing POTUS then?

    11. Re:Snowden's hypocrisy knows no bounds by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and now he's advocating for allowing contractors to release whatever information they feel like for 'Freedom of Press' reasons?

      He isn't advocating that, and you don't really believe that he is.

      Strawman arguments are lies.

    12. Re:Snowden's hypocrisy knows no bounds by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually if you actually read what he said instead of knee-jerking twaddle, he's advocating for a fair trial, not open season on secrets.
      The espionage act is a legal abomination that should not exist and does not pass the constitutional smell test.
      A person charged under the espionage act would get a fairer trial with Klingons and Cardassians than in the United States of America.

    13. Re:Snowden's hypocrisy knows no bounds by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > State secrets ... [are] needed for a country to function.

      Go read about the court case in which the notion of "State Secrets" was created. An Air Force bomber crashed and killed everyone on board, including the several civilians on the plane. FedGov asserted both the classified information defense and the newly-created-for-this-case "State Secrets privilege" as the reasons why a full investigation should and could not be launched. The court bought the argument and no wrongdoing was found, because no substantive information was examined.

      In 2000, -nearly fifty years after the crash- the military documentation about the crash was declassified. Not only did those documents not contain any classified information, but the entirely unclassified information contained within showed that the bomber was in _dreadfully_ poor condition and was _very_ poorly maintained. Had this information come to light during the trial, it would have been a _guaranteed_ loss for the government.

      The State Secrets privilege has its roots in illegal ass covering, and continues to be _regularly_ used to cover asses. Courts _should_ stop permitting it in their courtrooms.

    14. Re:Snowden's hypocrisy knows no bounds by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the government behaved itself, it probably wouldn't have these problems.

    15. Re:Snowden's hypocrisy knows no bounds by sims+2 · · Score: 1

      Are you talking about the Tuskegee syphilis experiment?

      I mean it wasn't exactly classified but the people involved were unaware of their involvement.

      --
      Minimum threshold fixed. Thanks!
    16. Re:Snowden's hypocrisy knows no bounds by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      (different AC here) No it's not your decision to determine classification levels directly, but it's your duty to the citizens of the united states to expose the misuse of security classification which hides the illegal activity of government entities lest you be complicit in that corruption.

    17. Re:Snowden's hypocrisy knows no bounds by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Individual employees or contractors are not in a position to decide the legality of classified material. Even if they were, the information leaked by "Reality Winner" was clearly not illegal.

      Your comment about Snowden being in Russia is staggeringly inappropriate. He is there because he has nowhere else to go, and that's because the USA cancelled his passport - because he released information of their appalling behaviour.

      And it was "so appalling" that the only nation on earth that he could run to was Russia? Snowden is a traitor that got lucky. He managed to leak a few things that were legitimately appalling. However, the majority of what he leaked was completely legitimate things.

      If he had only leaked the illegal stuff, then he would be a whistle blower. Instead, he's a traitor that deserves to be rotting in prison.

      The action - mass survellience (and until Snowden came along, secret mass survillience) - is wrong, because the the vast majority of the people being watched, having their privacy violated, have done and will never do anything wrong.

      Uh, it's worse than that. The USA's Constitution explicitly bans this type of activity in our Bill of Rights. The fact that it continues to this day is probably one of the scariest part about modern civilization -- and the news isn't even talking about it anymore.

    18. Re:Snowden's hypocrisy knows no bounds by mpercy · · Score: 1

      (different AC here) No it's not your decision to determine classification levels directly, but it's your duty to the citizens of the united states to expose the misuse of security classification which hides the illegal activity of government entities lest you be complicit in that corruption.

      I agree in principle. However, there are plenty of legal venues for doing exactly this. As I understand it, she failed to pursue even one of these steps.

      Pub.L. 113–126

      TITLE VI--INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY WHISTLEBLOWER PROTECTIONS

      Sec. 601. Protection of intelligence community whistleblowers.
      Sec. 602. Review of security clearance or access determinations.
      Sec. 603. Revisions of other laws.
      Sec. 604. Policies and procedures; nonapplicability to certain
                            terminations.

      Going to the press as step #1 means she didn't even try to be a whistleblower.

    19. Re:Snowden's hypocrisy knows no bounds by mpercy · · Score: 1

      No. However, there are first-line provisions that do not start with going to the press as step 1.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      " In administering the DICWP, the Office of the Inspector General, U.S. Department of Defense (DoDIG) balances the competing national security and separation of powers interests raised by whistleblowing within the Defense Intelligence Community.The DoDIG provides a safe, authorized conduit for Defense Department whistleblowers to disclose classified information. The Inspector General also has authority to investigate whistleblowing reprisal allegations filed by civilian and military members of the Defense Intelligence Community. It therefore accepts the disclosures and provides source protection for those providing the information."

    20. Re:Snowden's hypocrisy knows no bounds by swillden · · Score: 1

      I agree in principle. However, there are plenty of legal venues for doing exactly this.

      Yes, there are. And it's abundantly clear that they do not work, at all. Read about Thomas Drake and John Crane. Trying to use the legal venues just gets you silenced, fired and prosecuted... to absolutely no beneficial result. The only way to actually bring abuses to light is by breaking the law, and then either doing the prison time for it or, as Snowden did, fleeing the country.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    21. Re:Snowden's hypocrisy knows no bounds by dbIII · · Score: 1

      I would posit that the Democrats are absolutely doing 100% the same thing.

      But they are not supposed to be running the country so it's kind of irrelevant for the next few years isn't it?

    22. Re:Snowden's hypocrisy knows no bounds by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is not the job of every NSA contractor to make decisions about the classification level of the material they have access to.

      Their job is to follow orders without question?

    23. Re:Snowden's hypocrisy knows no bounds by bongey · · Score: 1

      Russians controlled the votes. My God you sound like complete crackpot, as in bat shit crazy.

    24. Re:Snowden's hypocrisy knows no bounds by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      Snowden openly admits what he did was wrong.

      Don't you mean against the law? Marrying someone of a different race was once against the law, too. Snowden, like Manning, first tried the "appropriate channels" to bring attention to illegal actions from the government - and like Manning was blown off. Leaving the only recourse to be blowing the whistle and telling the public about said illegal actions.

    25. Re:Snowden's hypocrisy knows no bounds by Outta_the_way_peck! · · Score: 1

      It's a little late for that. http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/07/...

    26. Re:Snowden's hypocrisy knows no bounds by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is muddy, but let's try with some extreme case:

      Say, if you had information about an active genocide program (you know, death camps and stuff) in US and your only defense for not divulging it was "well, they told me not to", would that risk you being considered a participant in that conspiracy?

      If yes, that would imply that you were not only authorized but in fact also obligated to do so.

    27. Re: Snowden's hypocrisy knows no bounds by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Where is he promoting phrenology? He's not, which makes me wonder why you included it here. Is "eugenics and phrenology" a reflexive phrase, like "burger and fries"? Or did you tack it on there in order to make him sound more absurd?

    28. Re:Snowden's hypocrisy knows no bounds by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

      Waahhh, I sound crazy to someone online who can't read very well.

      There's no proof, and I doubt the election was decided by the Russians. But it merits looking into in the context of Trump's shady dealings with the Russians. The fact that there's no serious investigation into Trump "because republicans?" That's a criminally dysfunctional government.

    29. Re:Snowden's hypocrisy knows no bounds by interkin3tic · · Score: 1
      Democrats are not the one obstructing an investigation into whether or not our government has been corrupted at the highest levels. They're awful people if you like, whatever helps you sleep at night, but they're not the topic.

      We don't rule ourselves based on what the rest of the world thinks

      We don't rule ourselves based on what our own citizens think either, so sure, we're not a world democracy, but we're not a democracy either. Anyway my point was universal health care is a good idea and everyone else can see it. The US comes from a LONG individualistic culture (as opposed to Europe, etc) and tradition and many of the proposed solutions butt heads with that, hence the debate and lack of a quick solution.

      Fuck culture. We come from a culture of slavery. Culture is one aspect of who we are at the moment, not a sacred tradition justifying itself in the future. Universal health care would cost less for everyone, is a good idea, and in no way erodes your individualism.

      Well, the US has done a LOT to clean up its act in this area, I think it's not a bad idea to see and ensure other countries step up and do their part in a verifiable way, before we put ourselves under even more regulation/fiscal/business stress...since we are in competition economically with those other countries.

      It's not a bad idea, we should sign a treaty with other countries to make sure everyone is on the same page. We could meet in Paris in 2015 to agree on such a thing. If the US senate is composed of sane people not religiously opposed to anything the president does, we could have them ratify it too. If not, well, something needs to be done, so we'll work around them. Not the best plan, but our children are counting on us and we can't straight up murder the assholes obstructing climate progress.

      Frankly, until they address what is pretty much the WORST polluter for greenhouse gasses, animal food production (cow farts, etc)....I'm not putting quite all my stock in having us shut down our energy industries. Get them to address that and then I"ll pay a bit more attention, as that that is pretty much the world's largest hazard to date.

      You're looking for excuses. Does energy production emit carbon? Yes. is it easier to capture carbon from smokestacks and use alternative energy sources than it is to clean up cow farts? Yes it fucking is.

      I have no doubts the Russians tried to meddle, but that's an entirely different thing than one of the presidential candidates trying to collude and work with them...and there just seems to be little to no evidence of that at this time. But, with 2 congressional investigations going, if it is there, they should find it, if not...drop it and let the govt move on to do the work it was elected to do.

      How on earth do you have faith that either of the GOP controlled congresses are going to investigate anything?

  8. Nah by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    The outrage should be that Hillary Clinton isn't in the Cell next to her for doing the same and worse. Not to mention the Pay to Play with State secrets she engaged in via her foundation.

    If you are working in intelligence, you shouldn't be acting/engaging in political activism using information gathered/manufactured on your job.

  9. Whistleblowing? by Richard_at_work · · Score: 3, Insightful

    In what way was the document that Reality Leigh Winner leaked *whistleblowing*...?

    It just seems like a cheapening of the term...

    1. Re:Whistleblowing? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We need to stop Trump's destruction of the planet. Anything that helps stop him is whistleblowing. Since he destroyed the Paris Accords, my asthma is much worse. I can no longer work.

    2. Re:Whistleblowing? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It provides the public with factual knowledge as to the true extent of Russian attempts to influence the 2016 Presidential election as understood by the intelligence community. We the public have lots of hearsay, but very little confirmed information on this matter.

      I think Ms. Winner may be confusing herself on how much support this document provides as to the additional claim that the Trump campaign may have colluded with the Russians in this matter, but I believe that this is the "whistleblowing" that she intended.

    3. Re:Whistleblowing? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can you blow a whistle with asthma or just your pajama'd boyfriend?

  10. In General Agreed, However... by BlueStrat · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "Whistleblower" protections should not extend to leakers whose purpose is domestic partisan-political in nature.

    Revealing things like Snowden did which are blatantly unconstitutional acts by government are one thing, but revealing certain confidential/secret/top-secret information to harm political enemies should never be protected.

    I notice Snowden did not in any way endorse Winner's specific actions, only the relevant laws in general and their draconian nature.

    Strat

    Strat

    --
    Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
    1. Re:In General Agreed, However... by BlueStrat · · Score: 0

      Ahhahaha!

      So good, I signed it twice!

      You'd think I'd learn not to post before the second cup of coffee... :/

      (I'll just not-sign this post, like stopping twice at the next red-light, thus restoring balance* to the universe!)

      *Only valid for certain limited values of "balance".

      --
      Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
    2. Re:In General Agreed, However... by mellon · · Score: 0

      If revealing top-secret information can "harm political enemies," isn't that exactly what whistle-blowing is for? If the information is top secret but couldn't harm political enemies, then revealing it would be espionage. The thing about "harm political enemies" is that information that is harmful to someone politically shouldn't exist. If it does, it's because the person whom it would harm did something wrong. And that means that blowing the whistle is precisely the right thing to do.

    3. Re:In General Agreed, However... by thaylin · · Score: 1

      You realize that conservatism creates the police state right? It is funny how conservatives try to blame liberals for their own deeds.

      --
      When you cant win, ad hominem.
    4. Re:In General Agreed, However... by BlueStrat · · Score: 1

      You realize that conservatism creates the police state right?

      Wrong.

      *Authoritarianism*, whether the flavor be Leftist or Rightist, creates the police state. There is anarchy and authoritarian tyranny at the two extremes, whether it is capitalist, communist, fascist, or socialist is largely irrelevant, especially to the regime's subjects. It's simply that collectivist ideologies have a 100% historical rate of authoritarianism. This authoritarianism is intrinsic, as collectivists take from those who produce and give it to those who do not.

      Strat

      --
      Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
    5. Re:In General Agreed, However... by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      Why the hell not? If any given President is advocating the torture of blacks, we should care if it is a white grandmother or a Blank Panther that brings it to our attention? Pertinent Information remains pertinent regardless of the intent of the person sharing it. What you are advocating is nothing less than a conditional killing of the messenger.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    6. Re:In General Agreed, However... by mellon · · Score: 1

      Slight clarification: obviously, the corollary to this is that things that aren't to do with your political career, like who you sleep with or what kind of porn you buy, should not be politically harmful. Yet at present they are. This is a bug that needs fixed. But it's not a reason to treat whistle-blowing and espionage as equivalent.

    7. Re:In General Agreed, However... by SirGarlon · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't say Snowden is being fair and unbiased here. The way he framed the accusations against her -- "accused of serving as a journalistic source" -- is heavily slanted in her favor. If I were trying to stick to facts and not endorse her actions, I'd describe the charges against her as "disclosing classified information."

      Snowden's main point stands -- if the accused has diminished rights because she's accused of crime A instead of crime B, no one can call that "justice" with a straight face.

      --
      [Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
    8. Re:In General Agreed, However... by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      If revealing top-secret information can "harm political enemies," isn't that exactly what whistle-blowing is for?

      I'm sorry, but that question truly is stupid.

      If it does, it's because the person whom it would harm did something wrong.

      You have a very limited view of what constitutes harm. Here's a simple example: the leader of the free world (President of the US in case you missed the reference) is in the middle of negotiation with another county on some treaty matter that you happen to oppose. The discussions are secret so that all parties can speak openly and frankly about their concerns. The location of the next round of discussions is secret to protect the safety of the participants. YOU leak the information because you oppose the President's position and want the treaty to fail. Who did the wrong thing, and who exposed secret information to harm a political opponent? Then try to cloak your action as "whistleblowing" and see how well that works.

    9. Re:In General Agreed, However... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe, but what are you talking about torture? No one said anything about torture blacks.

    10. Re:In General Agreed, However... by dbIII · · Score: 1

      "Whistleblower" protections should not extend to leakers whose purpose is domestic partisan-political in nature.

      Such as exposing wrongdoing of incumbents? Pretty fucking medieval thinking there Strat.

    11. Re: In General Agreed, However... by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      I'm willing to very Trump did ... Just not on Twitter ... Yet.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    12. Re:In General Agreed, However... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You cannot point out a system of government, at any time in history, that is considered solidly conservative that wasn't also a police state.

    13. Re:In General Agreed, However... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Strat

      Strat

      "You those guitars that are, like, double guitars?"

      Sorry I couldn't resist :D

    14. Re:In General Agreed, However... by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      *Authoritarianism*, whether the flavor be Leftist or Rightist, creates the police state.

      Uh huh. Except almost all authoritarian countries are "Rightist", as you can count the number of "Leftist" authoritarian countries on one hand. A hand that's missing a couple of fingers after a butcher shop accident.

      And even then all "Leftist" authoritarianism is the direct result of elitist and capitalist shitbags who oppressed the proles until the proles revolted and broke out the guillotines. Without the Tzars in Russia, you never would have had Lenin. Without the brutal Batista dictatorship, you never would have had Castro. Without the 600+ assassination attempts on Castro's life, you wouldn't have had decades of "human rights violations" to whine about (before opening your own torture camp in Cuba).

      collectivists take from those who produce and give it to those who do not.

      You're describing Capitalism. Socialism gives the people who do the work ownership of the means of production, not the leisure class shitbags who exploit people to death, with their only qualification being how much money their daddy was able to swindle from consumers and workers. Why do you hate workers?

    15. Re:In General Agreed, However... by BlueStrat · · Score: 1

      "You those guitars that are, like, double guitars?"

      Well, no, but I do go to eleven, that's one more louder than ten, innit? :D

      ~S

      --
      Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
    16. Re: In General Agreed, However... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yes, you certainly are willing to very trump did.

    17. Re:In General Agreed, However... by sabbede · · Score: 1

      Uh huh. Except almost all authoritarian countries are "Rightist", as you can count the number of "Leftist" authoritarian countries on one hand.

      Care to back that up? Keep in mind that Right and Left are relative, not absolute, terms. Further complicated by the fact that they are applied differently to social, political and economic systems.

      And even then all "Leftist" authoritarianism is the direct result of elitist and capitalist shitbags who oppressed the proles until the proles revolted and broke out the guillotines.

      This is not true. You appear to lack a sufficient grounding in the relevant concepts to be making such claims. Read Hegel, Smith, Locke, Nietzsche, and Foucault to start.

    18. Re: In General Agreed, However... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm willing to very Trump did ... Just not on Twitter ... Yet.

      You're incoherent. Time to take a break from posting for a while. Don't worry, you won't be missed.

    19. Re:In General Agreed, However... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You appear to lack a sufficient grounding in the relevant concepts to be making such claims.

      The briefest of glances at his posting history confirms this He appears to be extremely closed-minded and partisan regarding US political parties, showing little awareness or acknowledgement of history or much of anything, really, outside his narrow, blindered, obsession with (R) vs (D).

      I sincerely hope for his sake that most of his politically-themed posts are trolling for lulz or otherwise not a true indicator of his beliefs and principles IRL, otherwise I feel more pity for him than anything else.

  11. Land of the free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Free from fair trial.

  12. Reality Winner a Whistleblower? by SpankiMonki · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I think not.

    She didn't expose governmental wrongdoing like Snowden did, and it's a stretch to argue that the information she released was in the public interest. Russian hacking attempts have been public knowledge for some time before she decided to provide The Intercept with the classified info in question - all her leak did was provide some details on said Russian hacking attempts.

    I agree with Snowden that the restrictions the Espionage Act places on Ms. Winner's ability to get a fair trial are unjust, but let's be clear - she's no Eric Snowden.

    1. Re:Reality Winner a Whistleblower? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      but let's be clear - she's no Eric Snowden.

      She's no Evan Snowden, Elliot Snowden or Eugene Snowden either.

    2. Re:Reality Winner a Whistleblower? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      but let's be clear - she's no Eric Snowden.

      She's no Evan Snowden, Elliot Snowden or Eugene Snowden either.

      And neither is Edward Snodgrass.

    3. Re:Reality Winner a Whistleblower? by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 2, Insightful

      We have a President most people know should never have been elected, and you don't think it is pertinent that he probably wasn't legitimately elected?

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    4. Re:Reality Winner a Whistleblower? by nine-times · · Score: 1

      Russian hacking attempts have been public knowledge for some time before she decided to provide The Intercept with the classified info in question - all her leak did was provide some details on said Russian hacking attempts.

      Though it's true that we already knew there were Russian hacking attempts, you're not quite right to imply that nothing important was learned from this leak. We knew that Russian hackers had hacked the both Democrats and Republicans, but only chose to release information on Republicans. However, we've been lead to believe that there wasn't any Russian hacking that could have actually changed votes. The information released indicates that the Russians were actively mounting attacks to change votes, and that at the very least, they got close.

      It's still inconclusive as to whether they had any success. However, spear phishing is pretty effective, and if they sent emails to election officials all over the country, I would bet that they got at least a few people who were fooled. I wonder if they've been able to perform an audit of all the people who had been emailed to see whether anyone was compromised.

      At the same time, I don't support her decision to release this information. I do think that the American people should be informed about this kind of thing, but not while the matter is still under active investigation. At some point, this should be declassified and released.

      If we had reached a point where it was clear that the Trump administration had been trying to cover this up, and the investigation was quashed, then I think it could be argued that she was a whistleblower.

    5. Re:Reality Winner a Whistleblower? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I read The Intercept piece, and it went to great pains to say that nothing in the leaked document indicated that there was ANY effect of the Russian activities on the integrity of the election. So I don't see how you can claim that Trump's election wasn't legitimate.

      But perhaps you have some info that I'm not aware of. If so, let's see it.

    6. Re: Reality Winner a Whistleblower? by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      The info you seek is readily available via Google. Google the definition of the word "probably".

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    7. Re: Reality Winner a Whistleblower? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The info you seek is readily available via Google. Google the definition of the word "probably".

      I guess I'm probably not as skilled at using Google as you are. Can you provide ANY links to back up your claim? Probably not.

    8. Re:Reality Winner a Whistleblower? by Prien715 · · Score: 1

      she's no Eric Snowden.

      What does this have to do with a British actor who died in 1979 Or is it a different Eric Snowden?

      --
      -- Political fascism requires a Fuhrer.
    9. Re: Reality Winner a Whistleblower? by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      I didn't claim he wasn't legitimately elected. I claimed he PROBABLY wasn't. You can't possibly be so stupid as to not understand the difference.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    10. Re: Reality Winner a Whistleblower? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Still not one shred of evidence to back up your ridiculous claim. Surely if you believe Trump probably wasn't elected legitimately, you could provide something - ANYTHING - to support your position. But you've posted 3 times so far, and so far you've got zilch.

      Why don't you logoff and let the adults continue the conversation? Thanks in advance!

    11. Re:Reality Winner a Whistleblower? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We could have had a President most people know should never have been elected, and most people think this is pertinent that she was NOT elected (except people in CA and NY).

      FTFY

    12. Re: Reality Winner a Whistleblower? by KGIII · · Score: 1

      When someone uses the word probably, and they have no evidence and aren't talking about math, it is known as a weasel word. It indicates that they aren't interested in fact, honesty, and learning. You'd have more enjoyment, and greater odds of success, trying to teach your kitchen table to play fetch.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    13. Re: Reality Winner a Whistleblower? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you have evidence that the election was directly effected illegally at all to the sum total of 50% or more of the electorate? That is what your claim is. Probable illegal interference.

      You can't possibly be so stupid as to not understand the difference between evidence and hope.

    14. Re: Reality Winner a Whistleblower? by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      ... I probably have as much chance as teaching you to understand what probably means :-)

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    15. Re: Reality Winner a Whistleblower? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are probably the biggest idiot on Slashdot today.

    16. Re: Reality Winner a Whistleblower? by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      Yep .. Your lack of understanding is confirmed.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    17. Re:Reality Winner a Whistleblower? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I voted for him and enormous crowds showed up in support of him. The media hid this fact just like they hid that Ron Paul had huge crowds and could have won the primaries when he was running. Instead it was given to Romney who lost. The media is fake.

      There've been a few videos about it.
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

    18. Re:Reality Winner a Whistleblower? by bongey · · Score: 1

      How does one become illegitimately elected?

    19. Re:Reality Winner a Whistleblower? by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      We have a President most people know should never have been elected

      That's what the Birthers said for years about Obama, and for the same butthurt partisan reasons. And they had just as much evidence as you do.

    20. Re:Reality Winner a Whistleblower? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just curious, why do you think the Russians wanted Trump elected. Maybe they were trying to get Hillary elected, you know, like the DNC?

    21. Re:Reality Winner a Whistleblower? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pretty sure the criterion for whether someone should have been elected, is whether or not they were in fact elected.

    22. Re:Reality Winner a Whistleblower? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He actually meant Eric Clapton. Reality's guitar skills have a long way to go before she will join the gods of guitar.

    23. Re: Reality Winner a Whistleblower? by KGIII · · Score: 1

      Actually, no. That wasn't me. I also know what "probably" means. You seem to be the type to believe in "alternative fact." I'm not sure we can have a productive conversation.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    24. Re: Reality Winner a Whistleblower? by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      There was probably interference in the election by the Russians. Trump was elected in what was probably not a legitimate election. Ergo, Trump was probably not legitimately elected. If you are too stupid to understand that simple line of reasoning then I am probably wasting my time trying to help you get a clue.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    25. Re: Reality Winner a Whistleblower? by KGIII · · Score: 1

      You should take your meds. It'll be good for you. Also, maybe look up the word "influence." Russia sure as hell influenced the election. That hasn't a damned thing to do with the legitimacy of the election. If you want to be able to say that makes him illegitimate, then you can say the same for Obama, Bush, Clinton, and keep going back. We've had foreign influence pretty much since the inception of our country. Hell, the PM of Canada was quite vocal about urging people to vote for Obama. Somehow, I don't think that's something you're concerned about - nor should you be. Unless you want to cease information flow outside the borders, it's gonna get influenced. That's what happens when you have a big world full of people with opinions, goals, and means.

      You'll be alright. Really.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    26. Re: Reality Winner a Whistleblower? by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      As usual you babble on like the moron you are ... off you go now to suck tiny fingers' dick tiny mind.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
  13. It's time.. by gyepi · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ... to challenge the constitutionality of the Espionage act, and hope that, for the right reasons, the Supreme Court will ultimately strike it down. Unfortunately this implies several years of legal battle for a Winner... but she may not have another choice anyway.

    --
    Attitudes make the difference between Space and Time: we want to MAX our temporal, and MIN our spatial extension.
    1. Re:It's time.. by alexo · · Score: 1
  14. Amen - Snowden is absolutely correct by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Snowden's view here is absolutely and catagorically correct, and for the right reasons.

    1. Re: Amen - Snowden is absolutely correct by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You do not deserve to live in a free country

    2. Re:Amen - Snowden is absolutely correct by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You use redundant and superfluous words to try to make your post have more meaning.

    3. Re:Amen - Snowden is absolutely correct by KlomDark · · Score: 0

      You are morally repugnant

    4. Re:Amen - Snowden is absolutely correct by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A red rose is every color but red, cunt.

  15. Leading? by Topwiz · · Score: 1

    Since when is The Intercept a leading news outlet?

    1. Re:Leading? by mellon · · Score: 2

      Do you know what leading means? It doesn't mean "most popular." It means "reporting on stories that other outlets aren't yet reporting on."

    2. Re:Leading? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      leading
      adjective

              1. most important.
              "a number of leading politicians"

    3. Re:Leading? by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      Do you know what leading means? It doesn't mean "most popular." It means "reporting on stories that other outlets aren't yet reporting on."

      No, that's NOT what "leading" means in any remotely appropriate context. "Leading" means "widely consumed, ahead of others." It means, "noted for actually be better at something that most others."

      But even if we were to accept you out-of-context use of the term, The Intercept is still no such thing. That Russian (and Chinese, and Iranian, and North Korean) hackers send spearfishing emails to people in every industry, including to the businesses that manufacture voting hardware and to the local government operations that conduct every aspect of public life (including, but not even close to merely the voting process) is common knowledge. This isn't that being "exposed" or something being discovered. This is just one of The Intercepts breathless fangirls trying to prop up their lefty street cred by giving them something that feels nice and authoritatively insider-ish so they can pretend they actually ARE a leading media outlet. Of course they're not leading anything, and her illegal transfer of information to them didn't break any actual news or shine any new light on anything. She's ruined her life in a bit of lazy political attention-whoring for a cause that's based on nothing but BS in the first place. And for that supremely bad judgement and deliberate act, she should get exactly what the law calls for.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
  16. Need to understand EOFI by ibolski66 · · Score: 1

    EOFI - Elements of Friendly Information. This is when bits and pieces that are considered not top secret could still, when put together with other pieces of information, could allow someone to piece it together and eventually learn something that is top secret. Regardless, she took an oath to protect the top secret information. But, what she also did was search for it when it wasn't something she needed access to at the time. Getting a top secret security clearance requires an extensive background check which includes family background check, character references, as well as an extensive financial/credit history check to ensure you are not in financial trouble, which could make you a mark for bribary to sell information. In this particular case, she printed out, emailed to a private email account (doing just as her mentor Hillary did), and then emailed the top secret document to the news service. She violated the U.S. Code Title 18 Part I Chapter 37 793. https://www.law.cornell.edu/us... This particular paragraph pretty much sums up she broke this US Code: (b) Whoever, for the purpose aforesaid, and with like intent or reason to believe, copies, takes, makes, or obtains, or attempts to copy, take, make, or obtain, any sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, document, writing, or note of anything connected with the national defense Now, maybe it may not have anything to do with the national defense, but it could. It was top secret for a reason. What about the sailor who took selfies on a 20-year-old submarine? He was put in prison even though it was an innocent mistake. In this case, this was not innocent. If it was, she was an idiot but since she served in the same branch of the armed services I served in (and I had top secret security clearance), I have to assume she knew what she was doing. And now both her and her mom are afraid she'll be made an example of, and possibly made to disappear? Wow. Talk about conspiracy theories, but if you take a look at what she posted on social media, it fits her narrative. But, considering what she wrote on her social media accounts, I'm surprised she was even allowed to work with a Top Secret security clearance. That is usually a big red flag for jobs like this.

    1. Re:Need to understand EOFI by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Quoted because for some reason Slashdot ripped out all Ivan's formatting. Seriously, I didn't add anything to the quoteblock, just hit the "quote parent" button and it had proper use of newlines.

      EOFI - Elements of Friendly Information. This is when bits and pieces that are considered not top secret could still, when put together with other pieces of information, could allow someone to piece it together and eventually learn something that is top secret. Regardless, she took an oath to protect the top secret information. But, what she also did was search for it when it wasn't something she needed access to at the time.

      Getting a top secret security clearance requires an extensive background check which includes family background check, character references, as well as an extensive financial/credit history check to ensure you are not in financial trouble, which could make you a mark for bribary to sell information.

      In this particular case, she printed out, emailed to a private email account (doing just as her mentor Hillary did), and then emailed the top secret document to the news service. She violated the U.S. Code Title 18 Part I Chapter 37 793.

      https://www.law.cornell.edu/us...

      This particular paragraph pretty much sums up she broke this US Code:

      (b) Whoever, for the purpose aforesaid, and with like intent or reason to believe, copies, takes, makes, or obtains, or attempts to copy, take, make, or obtain, any sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, document, writing, or note of anything connected with the national defense

      Now, maybe it may not have anything to do with the national defense, but it could. It was top secret for a reason. What about the sailor who took selfies on a 20-year-old submarine? He was put in prison even though it was an innocent mistake. In this case, this was not innocent. If it was, she was an idiot but since she served in the same branch of the armed services I served in (and I had top secret security clearance), I have to assume she knew what she was doing.

      And now both her and her mom are afraid she'll be made an example of, and possibly made to disappear? Wow. Talk about conspiracy theories, but if you take a look at what she posted on social media, it fits her narrative. But, considering what she wrote on her social media accounts, I'm surprised she was even allowed to work with a Top Secret security clearance. That is usually a big red flag for jobs like this.

    2. Re:Need to understand EOFI by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm surprised she was even allowed to work with a Top Secret security clearance. That is usually a big red flag for jobs like this.

      Affirmative action. That's why, even if we discount potential laziness, so many government workers are utterly unsuited (incompetent) for their jobs.

      I would prefer the government just give the affirmative action hires free money and tell them to stay home; then hire a competent person to actually do the work.

    3. Re:Need to understand EOFI by nucrash · · Score: 1

      Have you been seeing what this current administration has been hiring? They are giving out jobs to anyone who will show up at this point and firing anyone who doesn't pledge loyalty to Herr Trump

      --
      Place something witty here
    4. Re:Need to understand EOFI by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Need to understand EOFI

      None of this is relevant or material: the real issue here is the jury trial, and hierarchy of law.

      Congress does not have, and has never had, the legal authority to bar OR LIMIT trial by Jury for any serious issue - it is an inalienable right protected under the 6th Amendment, plus there are applicable rights protected by the 9th Amendment, and the 10th. As a matter of hierarchy of law, and as a consequence of the 9th Amendment right to ethical practice of law, the Bill of Rights supersedes ALL acts of Congress when they come into conflict.

      The Founding Fathers would have been appalled at what is happening today. The King of England had resorted to something called "Star Chamber" sessions from the 15th to 17th centuries - these were secretive courts that became synonymous for political repression. Trial by jury was intended to block this: the public, not the government, would decide guilt - and it would not be a secret process (anything relevant to the trial must be declassified and presented to the jury). It's a matter of learning from the mistakes of the past, not repeating them.

      A fundamental issue here is that the people get to decide what rights are retained by them under the 9th Amendment, and reserved to them under the 10th. Although a jury is certainly not the only way these right can be asserted, it is one place where they MUST be allowed to come into play - there can be NO rights retained by the people if the government attempts to block the exercise of such rights. Rights retained by the people are by definition retained by the people - and NO entity of government - not the Congress, not the President, not the Supreme Court - can limit or deny such rights. Jury nullification is built-in to the highest law of the land. This is what EVERY lawyer, every judge, every prosecutor, every law enforcement officer, and every senior government official swears to uphold when they take their oaths - and if any of these people are unwilling to act accordingly, they need to leave public service.

      In a sense, the Nuremberg Precedent is embodied in the 9th Amendment, and is binding not just on the military hierarchy, but on the civil hierarchy as well - and everybody involved in the practice of law.

      When Congress passes the espionage act, they broke the law on multiple levels. Strictly speaking - just from a 1st Amendment perspective - what they should have done before passing this act is create an Amendment to the Constitution to allow them the authority to pass it - by failing to do so, they created an awkward situation where anyone who enforces the law is actually breaking the law.

      Note that the issue here is not whether or not Congress should be able to penalize espionage - the issue is how it was done. Once that is corrected, we can discuss whether or not this person's conduct in appropriate and worthy of punishment (I won't do that since I don't have the full facts) - but since the current prosecution is based on an illegal law that can only be brought into compliance with the Bill of Rights via ex-post-facto changes, any punishment is going to be a tricky matter.

  17. This, and more by s.petry · · Score: 5, Insightful

    What she leaked was certainly not whistle blowing. A report that states people were spear phished by a foreign government is nearly a daily event for many of us, and I don't even work in DOD any longer where it was multiple times a day. This was dumping data for purely political purposes, not presenting wrong doing and cover up. Snowden and Manning both could be claimed as whistle blowers.

    As to the claim that this should be in front of a jury I would agree if, and only if, the jury members all had the correct clearance and could be trusted outside of court with information learned in the case. Evidence in these types of trials will contain at least some classified material/methods. It must be established "how" they tracked down the 6 sources and narrowed down to one.

    For those who cry "1st Amendment", the 1st does not protect you from consequences. Hell, the founders of the US lived knowing that at any moment the King of England would lop their heads off if given the chance.

    --

    -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    1. Re: This, and more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "For those who cry "1st Amendment", the 1st does not protect you from consequences. Hell, the founders of the US lived knowing that at any moment the King of England would lop their heads off if given the chance."

      No it doesn't protect you from consequences. Nothing EVER can 100% protect a living human from consequences. However, it was meant to protect you from the United States LEGAL consequences. What the king of England would do has nothing to do with whether someone should have protection under the 1st amendment. If I lob your head off for that comment and say the 1st didn't protect you from the consequences of your speech it doesn't make it right or legal. There is no point to having the highest law of the land say you have a legal right to something if you can be legally punished for doing what it gave you the legal right to do. Now you can argue all day about the types of speech that were intended to be protected under the 1st (though that's what SCOTUS is for).

    2. Re:This, and more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For those who cry "1st Amendment", the 1st does not protect you from consequences.

      OFFS If there is one thing that the 1st Amendment does protect you from it is consequences enforced by the state via the legal system.

      The relevant question is whether this disclosure is covered by the 1st at all.

    3. Re:This, and more by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      So your argument is that is should never have been classified information to begin with, and they should burn her at the stake for releasing it?

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    4. Re:This, and more by Bartles · · Score: 0

      Even the political purpose backfired, because it showed that Barack Obama lied once again. https://www.nytimes.com/2016/1...

    5. Re:This, and more by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      A report that states people were spear phished by a foreign government is nearly a daily event for many of us,

      This. Oh, so much this.

      All the people trying to excuse Winner because she was exposing US government wrongdoing have yet to explain how a document discussing RUSSIAN spear phishing of public election officials is US government wrongdoing. Is it because the Russians allegedly hacked a voting machine company database? Sorry, but the email addresses of many elections officials are publicly available from their own election's department websites. I don't have to hack anything to find out the email address of my local election official, I just go to the county website and there it is.

      For those who cry "1st Amendment", the 1st does not protect you from consequences.

      It also does not protect you when you are reproducing someone elses speech (copyright, e.g.), or when you are part of the government and have signed agreements not to reveal the speech that you receive (NDA, e.g).

      So, if telling a foreign government that we have intel about a common enemy that suggests an increased likelyhood of a certain kind of terrorist attack is treason, why is this not the same? Consider both that the likelyhood of a certain kind of attack was being broadcast every day by the news media when they reported on increasing limits on carry-on electronics, and that spear phishing attacks by Russians are well-known and resulted in the public disgrace of a certain DNC official when he handed over his email credentials after getting one.

    6. Re:This, and more by s.petry · · Score: 1

      So your argument is that is should never have been classified information to begin with, and they should burn her at the stake for releasing it?

      Instead of attributing words to me which I never said, why not ask for my opinion? I did not, nor would I have made such a poor argument.

      I don't want you to know my detection capabilities any more than a Russian Bank wants you to know theirs! Knowing those capabilities gives attackers information on how they should be attacking. Show me a company that goes out and tells the public every time there is a spear phishing attack against them. You won't find any. In the cases you see a report due to a successful attack the information released will be very minimal.

      Tactics and Strategy 101: Project only as much offense as you want someone to know you have, and never ever project your defense..

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    7. Re:This, and more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A report that states people were spear phished by a foreign government is nearly a daily event for many of us, and I don't even work in DOD any longer where it was multiple times a day.

      Sounds to me like the typical "whats the big deal, everyone already knows about this" type of argument. So yes, you indirectly did make this poor argument.

    8. Re:This, and more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      [Hell, the founders of the US lived knowing that at any moment the King of England would lop their heads off if given the chance.]

      "Make America head-lopping-off by kings again!!" -- GOP/neocons.

    9. Re:This, and more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Manning could not be claimed as a whistle blower. She indiscriminately dumped hundreds of thousands of pages of classified documents to Wikileaks to try to raise her status among her friends and peers, and because she was pissed off at being stuck in a military commitment. One of the leaked items just happened to be a video of some relevance, but that video was already under review and the actions it depicted under investigation through the proper channels, so Manning didn't really do anything positive there.

      That's not whistle blowing, that's illegal douchebaggery.

    10. Re:This, and more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As to the claim that this should be in front of a jury I would agree if, and only if, the jury members all had the correct clearance and could be trusted outside of court with information learned in the case. Evidence in these types of trials will contain at least some classified material/methods. It must be established "how" they tracked down the 6 sources and narrowed down to one.

      If the secrets are more valuable than due process, fine, keep the secrets, case dismissed.

    11. Re:This, and more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Our gov had already partly revealed these phishing attempts. Her actions were pointless.

      Regarding tracking her. In addition to her online statements and other tracking, she was probably tracked down because of the small yellow dot codes on the pages.

      https://arstechnica.com/securi...

    12. Re:This, and more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As to the claim that this should be in front of a jury I would agree if, and only if, the jury members all had the correct clearance and could be trusted outside of court with information learned in the case. Evidence in these types of trials will contain at least some classified material/methods. It must be established "how" they tracked down the 6 sources and narrowed down to one.

      In other words, you want the government to be able to pick a jury favourable to it, and to be able the threaten the jury with criminal conduct (presumably without a jury trial) in the event they somehow accidentally pick an honest and competent juror ...

      No.

      The government is required, as a consequence of rights arising under the 9th and 10th Amendments, to declassify anything relevant to evidence in a criminal trial. Anything else is criminal conduct on the part of government officials as a violation of fundamental rights under the colour of law, a violation of their oaths to uphold the Bill of Rights, a failure of the Constitutional requirement of "good behaviour" for the judges involved, and unethical practice of law for any legal professionals involved.

      Think Nuremberg, and remember that it applies to US law and is binding on government officials and doubly binding on government legal professionals under the 9th and 10th Amendments ...

    13. Re:This, and more by s.petry · · Score: 1

      Demonstrating that you have a near single digit IQ and/or the reading comprehension skills of a turnip, you should simply be embarrassed.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

  18. Whistleblower? Maybe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The interesting thing is, she searched for evidence of Russian hacking. She had access to all the classified information as well. What she found was the extent of the evidence held by our intelligence agencies.

    It appears from what was printed, that they have nearly NO evidence of Russian interference. A couple SpearPhishing attacks at voting machine manufacturers is the extent of their evidence? So someone made an EMAIL and that is unquestionable proof? If that is all it takes to make the NSA and ENTIRE government say illegal hacking happened and a year long issues, how long before someone crafts an email from someone else to frame them? It would literally take me an afternoon to frame Russia in this way to produce this evidence, and its all the NSA has?

    I think she accidently blew the lid off the entire thing. From this point on, anyone claiming there is proof is literally making stuff up.

    1. Re:Whistleblower? Maybe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Like wikileaks! Lock her up! Lock her up! MAGA comrade!

    2. Re:Whistleblower? Maybe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You have made an awful lot of huge leaps of logic. I would assume any strong evidence of hacking would be code-word level, and not generic TS stuff. Maybe we should hold judgement until the investigation is complete instead of assuming we know more than the people involved?

    3. Re:Whistleblower? Maybe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe we should hold judgement until the investigation is complete instead of assuming we know more than the people involved?

      Novel idea, but not too likely in today's climate.

    4. Re:Whistleblower? Maybe by inhuman_4 · · Score: 1

      I think she accidently blew the lid off the entire thing. From this point on, anyone claiming there is proof is literally making stuff up.

      And this is why she is going to get hammered by the system, she embarrassed them.

    5. Re: Whistleblower? Maybe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is a brilliant insight... But we'd have to factor in the evidence she's pretty stupid, so it might be she couldn't put together a search with a few keywords that would have found more... But if it turns out that the nsa has zilch, wow... Big time politics...

    6. Re:Whistleblower? Maybe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It would literally take me an afternoon to frame Russia in this way to produce this evidence, and its all the NSA has?

      I think she accidently blew the lid off the entire thing. From this point on, anyone claiming there is proof is literally making stuff up.

      Ummm... except for the trail of bread crumbs that leads fairly convincingly to Fancy Bear aka APT28 aka Pawn Storm?

      Pretty intriguing links between Podesta emails, Guccifer 2.0, the dcleaks data dumps, and the IP address tied to a particular bit.ly account. But sure, it's allllll just a red herring, Trump derangement syndrome.

      https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/how-hackers-broke-into-john-podesta-and-colin-powells-gmail-accounts

    7. Re:Whistleblower? Maybe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Anybody exposing truth deserve the same treatment!

    8. Re:Whistleblower? Maybe by dbIII · · Score: 1

      What she found was the extent of the evidence held by our intelligence agencies.

      Wrong.
      What she found is bounded by what civilian contractors are allowed access to.

  19. Which part? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Which part of "classified" do you moronic liberal fucksticks not understand? The stupidity and twisted rationalizations displayed here are truly stunning. "Idiocracy" is a documentary, not a comedy apparently. Please go kill yourselves.

    1. Re:Which part? by mellon · · Score: 1

      The part where secretly violating the constitution isn't violating the constitution, apparently, because it's done in secret, and can't be spoken of.

    2. Re: Which part? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I didn't follow the part where you ranted insults because you apparently can't engage in intelligent debate or justify your preconceived assumptions.

    3. Re: Which part? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, aren't you a sanctimonious, self-righteous, little douche-flake! Thanks for sharing. Here ya go: http://www.ribbonsgalore.com/d...

    4. Re:Which part? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What part of "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." do you not understand.

      If congress says "you can't say that" they are breaking the law regardless of what "that" is. They can classify documents all the like, but it's illegal for them to pass any law that prohibits the publication of those regardless of why they think it would be prudent to not share the information contained therein.

    5. Re:Which part? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is why they did not arrest the reporters of "The Intercept". They arrested the person who provided them the information (which was classified).

    6. Re:Which part? by sabbede · · Score: 1

      That applies to Snowden, not Winner. He revealed unconstitutional actions by the NSA. She prejudged the outcomes of at least five ongoing agency and legislative investigations, and ignored all the legal options she had.

  20. Please mod parent up. by mellon · · Score: 1

    That is all.

  21. Re:Whistleblowing? Yup by Steve1952 · · Score: 1

    Exposing hidden evidence of a foreign power attacking US voting machines? Whistleblowing works for me.

  22. Private Property Analogy by CloneRanger · · Score: 1

    Suppose an employee at a recording label run across an old Beatles tape. Suppose they listened to it and thought everyone should hear it. Their employer said no because the band did not want it published. So, does this hypothetical employee have the right to go to the Rolling Stone or Spin magazine and have them publish the music and do a review? The tapes would have been a source of journalistic material. But at the end of the day it is theft of private property.

    1. Re:Private Property Analogy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the tapes themselves are not stolen (say you make a copy) it is not theft but copyright infringement.

      The thing is, in order to sue for copyright infringement you need to register the copyright which requires submitting a copy to the Library of Congress where it can be viewed by the general public. You cannot copyright a secret document.

    2. Re:Private Property Analogy by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      You can sue for copyright infringement without registering the copyright. Registering helps, though; for example, you can then sue for statutory rather than actual damages (IIRC - IANAL).

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  23. Correcting a few of Snowden's misleading points by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    First off, Winner's crime has next to nothing to do with the fact that she 'served as a journalistic source'. She's charged with violating the Espionage act. I've held various clearances and I can vouch for the fact that the guidelines and repercussions of data handling / mishandling is made VERY clear when you get your clearance. In this case she leaked documents that were marked as classified and she did it for personal political reasons. This isn't about her being a journalistic source. This is about her mishandling the classified document. She could have given them to her mother and would be in the same situation if it came to light. As for her not being a threat to public safety, I'll argue that as well. In the position she held it's almost impossible she didn't see other information such as intelligence data on terrorists, military plans, etc. that she could leak if released. Information like that could allow threats to all of us to gain a strategic advantage and one could argue that's a threat to public safety. As for flight risk, look at everyone who has been charged like this. Snowden, Assange, for example, took flight. Why wouldn't she? Last but not least, the rules she's under aren't civilian they're DOD/military, so making an argument for a fair civilian trial is moot. That's not how it works.

    1. Re:Correcting a few of Snowden's misleading points by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unless you are the Secretary of State...Bu dump bah!!!

    2. Re:Correcting a few of Snowden's misleading points by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I believe you are confusing the issue with facts. That is not allowed here. Only opinions, however wrong and fucked up they might be. Let this be a lesson to you.

  24. Make Leaking Always Legal? by mentil · · Score: 1

    If handing over classified info to journalists is made always legal, then the govt. would just use contract law to ruin the leakers financially, or have them assassinated in an exotic way like Polonium poisoning. It'd also make it easier for a real spy to become employed as a journalist and make agents out of intelligence agency employees/contractors.

    --
    Corruption is convincing someone that the selfless ideal is the same as their selfish ideal.
    1. Re:Make Leaking Always Legal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      or have them assassinated in an exotic way like Polonium poisoning.

      Anybody want to take bets on Winner winding up dead and full of Polonium? Would the anti-Trumpers kill her this way to frame Trump?

    2. Re:Make Leaking Always Legal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, they have been known in the past to kill their own for betrayal. So I would not think they would have any qualms using them as sacrificial pawns.

  25. Why she did it not relevant to guilt ... by drnb · · Score: 1

    > Not sure this qualifies as whistle blowing.

    And the point of the article was to let a jury decide that.

    Juries decide the facts based on the evidence, i.e. did she knowing disclose classified information. Why she did so does not alter such facts. Why she did so is something to consider during sentencing as a mitigating factor to perhaps give her a lighter sentence.

    1. Re: Why she did it not relevant to guilt ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is no intent required when it comes to mishandling classified information. Everyone with a clearance knows this, you have to sign paperwork acknowledging this.

  26. Whistle blowing would have been going to Congress by drnb · · Score: 1

    Not sure this qualifies as whistle blowing.

    Whistle blowing would be going to an appropriate Senator or Member of the House and saying something like "I have classified information that the Congress should be aware of", and waiting for members of Congress with intelligence oversight authority ordering her to reveal the information.

  27. When you join military/intelligence agencies ... by drnb · · Score: 1

    But should violating your security clearance cost you the right to a fair trial with a jury of your peers?

    When one voluntarily joins the military or an intelligence agency one voluntarily signs a contract agreeing that one's rights will be limited during the term of that contract.

  28. The whole thing stinks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My interpretation of the story is that the whole thing smells like a honeypot. Since SlashDot seems to have forgotten its computing roots, a honeypot is a server with data that is intentionally left exposed so that anyone who hacks it would be monitored and detected. They are mostly used in research, but can also be used to detect breaches.

    In this case, Trump was rambling on and on about leakers in the administration. I can picture him demanding results, so the NSA goes and makes results... they set up a situation where "classified contents" of Russian Election Haxxors!!11! are made accessible, and they see who takes the bait. Who cares that the actual content is a report on phishing public email addresses full of dubious assumptions, it's enough to make a Resistance member salivate.

    "The Trump Administration is trying to hide this piece of hacking evidence that would surely lead to his Impeachment!". Said Contractor goes out, retrieves the document (trackable), prints it from her work computer no less (trackable), mails the originals with stenography microprint (trackable) to a newspaper. The newspaper, in trying to confirm the content basically shares all the tracking information, and bam, leaker caught.

    Now the administration gets to thump their chest that they caught a leaker, and some leftist goes to jail (double-win). They make an example out of a citizen but didn't really solve anything... status quo for government.

  29. Politicized Outrage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's too bad that almost everyone seems more interested in pushing various agendas than viewing each happening in an even light, and trying to decide on their own regardless of what their fellow-travelers (and opponents, for that matter) are saying.

  30. Re: edward snowden iis a TRAITOR! by nucrash · · Score: 1

    NginX, but good attempt.

    --
    Place something witty here
  31. So trump is worse. But you keep HIM on. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    How does that work?

  32. Re:Whistleblowing? Yup by drnb · · Score: 1

    Exposing hidden evidence of a foreign power attacking US voting machines? Whistleblowing works for me.

    Whistle blowing would be going to Congress, not the foreign press.

  33. Citation Needed by John.Banister · · Score: 1

    the Espionage Act -- a World War I era law meant for spies -- which explicitly forbids the jury from hearing why the defendant acted, and bars them from deciding whether the outcome was to the public's benefit.

    I read The Text of that Law and find no reference at all to restrictions on what the jury is allowed to hear. Moreover, it uses the phrase

    with intent or reason to believe that the information to be obtained is to be used to the injury of the United States, or to the advantage of any foreign nation,

    more than once. It seems challenging to me to obtain a proper conviction where one needs to show "with intent or reason to believe" and not allow the jury to hear from the defendant what that person intended or had reason to believe, especially since not permitting the jury to hear from the defendant in matters regarding intent violates the Confrontation Clause of the 6th Amendment to the Constitution. That said, the way this law is phrased does poor service to people who believe the information obtained will be used to the benefit of the United States, since "benefit to the United States" itself provides advantage to those foreign nations who are allies of the United States, and the law makes no distinction between allies and opponents among foreign nations. I suppose it could be argued that with a sufficiently strong "America First" policy in place, benefit to the USA does not also benefit our allies. Certainly, any law that doesn't permit the defendant to tell the jury why she did what she did ought to be repealed or rewritten so that this is no longer the case.

    1. Re:Citation Needed by jm007 · · Score: 1

      Thanks for looking at and explaining the actual legal text.

      In today's world, the power to control information is the One Ring to Rule Them All. Any suppression of the ability of a defendant to actually defend themselves is certainly not in the spirit nor intent of our Founding Fathers. A government agency with the powers to not only accuse but limit/control evidence of either innocence or guilt, and with no accountability, is surely a festering cesspool of corruption in need of wholesale application of convictions via juries that they didn't give anyone else.

      It's always about power and money. But all you ever hear is obfuscations from using inappropriate words like 'patriotism' and 'national security' but never the unvarnished truth which would be more like 'because we can' and 'because we want to keep our power base intact' and 'keep believing the lies, Common Man.'

    2. Re:Citation Needed by sabbede · · Score: 1

      Seems to depend greatly on how the prosecution defines "injury to the United States". In Winner's case, she unnecessarily (there are investigations she could have turned it over to, if it hadn't been already, which she wouldn't know) released classified information, thereby undermining the ongoing investigations which could be argued as intentional injury.

    3. Re:Citation Needed by John.Banister · · Score: 1

      Whether she goes to jail will depend on how the Judge/jury finds those things. Whether she's allowed to speak about her intent at trial is a different matter. Part of the defense argument will definitely be about whether the benefit from the public knowing what it learned outweighs the harm that came from that. Another argument, which I think she is doomed to lose, however, is that whenever she signed up for dealing with classified material, she promised that she would defer judgement on whether the benefit outweighs the harm to people with the authority to classify or declassify material. I think it'll be difficult for her to argue that by keeping secret what she revealed, the people with the authority to declassify it legally were in such egregious dereliction of their duty to the public that she needed to violate her oath and step outside the system in which she had chosen to participate.

    4. Re:Citation Needed by sabbede · · Score: 1
      Well, she will be formally allowed to testify, but her lawyer probably won't want her to.

      You're absolutely right that it won't be an easy argument to make. Mainly because she won't even be able to show that the information wasn't handed over to the investigations already, let alone that it wouldn't be, or that it wouldn't have been made public by time the investigations released their findings. To have any justification for her actions, all three of those would have to be true and she could not know if it was. Though hardly conclusive, I haven't heard anybody from any of the investigative committees say that they weren't aware of this (I may have just not heard about an interview or press conference).

  34. Re: edward snowden iis a TRAITOR! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Biast? Really?

  35. Re:Whistleblowing? Yup by ScentCone · · Score: 1

    Exposing hidden evidence of a foreign power attacking US voting machines? Whistleblowing works for me.

    There was no "exposure" of this information, as Russian (and Chinese, and everyone else) poking and prodding at the email addresses of companies and organizations involved in our voting infrastructure and processes goes on every day and has been for years, both here and in every other country. She'd only be a "whistleblower" if she was aware of information that showed her own government was somehow the cause of or party to this - and the information she illegally passed along shows no such thing. It showed classified details about facts already, in broader terms, well understood by anybody with a casual interest and access to Google. She did this strictly for street cred and bragging rights so one of her favorite lefty media outlets could show how active it is, even if the documents she gave them shed exactly zero new light on the important aspects of the topic. All she did was expose classified nitty-gritty details that may, perhaps, help the spearfishing Russians to get a little better at what they do.

    At no point were voting machines attacked, or any data altered. Implying that is just another attempt to deflect attention from why the party that's experienced such losses through the last few elections crashed and burned so badly in November in a continuation of that losing streak. This woman who leaked the data sounds, based on her unhinged postings, like someone who absolutely could never bring herself to stop for a moment and wonder why the Democrats had lost nearly a thousand legislative seats, most of the governorships, both houses of congress, the White House and (as a result) the Supreme Court. Too much for her to process, because it would require some actual self-evaluation that would take the fun out of her crazy world view. So, she did what she did because it's the child-like, romantic #RESIST! thing to do, because that sort of phony posturing is really all she and the people she's cheering for actually have.

    --
    Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
  36. As long as mens rea is on the books by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    yes, it does matter. You have accidental death, manslaughter, murder and murder 1 in the USA all differentiated on what you intended and why you did it.

    Indeed the jury has to derermine whether the law was INTENDED to cover the case at all, no matter what the wording of the law says, it's WHY there is a jury nullification.

    And if the reason for doing it is irrelevant, then there's no such thing as espionage, just leaking confidential information. That you did it for a foreign power you are in thrall to is irrelevant, because that's merely WHY you did it, not WHAT you did. She could just say "Not guilty" because the charge is being a spy. And since she's not, she's not guilty. If asked "did you leak information", then this isn't a charge of being a spy, so is irrelevant and doesn't have to be answered. "Did you give russians confidential information at their behest" is what being a spy is, but she didn't do that. And "Trying to harm the US" isn't spying, and is still another "why you did it" that is, apparently, irrelevant.

    1. Re:As long as mens rea is on the books by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But in this case, they'd be trying to determine if it was whistleblowing vs leaking. If there are legitimate (not necessarily encoded-in-law) reasons for the disclosure, then the jury should be able to hear them to allow for possible nullification.

    2. Re:As long as mens rea is on the books by drnb · · Score: 2

      yes, it does matter. You have accidental death, manslaughter, murder and murder 1 in the USA all differentiated on what you intended and why you did it.

      Indeed the jury has to derermine whether the law was INTENDED to cover the case at all, no matter what the wording of the law says, it's WHY there is a jury nullification.

      And if the reason for doing it is irrelevant, then there's no such thing as espionage, just leaking confidential information. That you did it for a foreign power you are in thrall to is irrelevant, because that's merely WHY you did it, not WHAT you did. She could just say "Not guilty" because the charge is being a spy. And since she's not, she's not guilty. If asked "did you leak information", then this isn't a charge of being a spy, so is irrelevant and doesn't have to be answered. "Did you give russians confidential information at their behest" is what being a spy is, but she didn't do that. And "Trying to harm the US" isn't spying, and is still another "why you did it" that is, apparently, irrelevant.

      Poor analogy. The legal concept of intent requires knowing the person's motivation to distinguish between these various forms of death. However in the case of this NSA contractor's alleged crime intent only involves whether or not she intentionally gave the information to a journalist.

      "Was the killing intentional?" requires info regarding motivation.
      "Was the disclosure intentional?" does not require info regarding motivation.

    3. Re:As long as mens rea is on the books by drnb · · Score: 1

      But in this case, they'd be trying to determine if it was whistleblowing vs leaking. If there are legitimate (not necessarily encoded-in-law) reasons for the disclosure, then the jury should be able to hear them to allow for possible nullification.

      Whistle blowing doesn't mean you can give the info to just anyone. A proper whistle blowing channel for her would have been to contact Congress.

    4. Re: As long as mens rea is on the books by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, parent is more correct than you.

      Unintentional disclosure is incompetence.

        It's espionage when the other person is an agent of a foreign government who does not have a clearance as part of an intelligence sharing agreement that covers the information in question. In that case, because of WHO is getting it, intent does not matter.

      But when recipient is not a foreign agent, intentional disclosure can actually be legal - when the other person has a clearance for that information and a need to know. It's whistle blowing when the other person does not have a clearance , but the public had a need to know. So yes intent does matter.

    5. Re: As long as mens rea is on the books by drnb · · Score: 1

      No, parent is more correct than you. Unintentional disclosure is incompetence.

      The disclosure to the press was not unintentional and my point that the motivation for the disclosure is irrelevant stands.

      It's espionage when the other person is an agent of a foreign government who does not have a clearance as part of an intelligence sharing agreement that covers the information in question.

      You are mistaken, there is no requirement for the recipient to be a foreign agent.
      "The Espionage Act of 1917 was passed, along with the Trading with the Enemy Act, just after the United States entered World War I in April 1917. It was based on the Defense Secrets Act of 1911, especially the notions of obtaining or delivering information relating to "national defense" to a person who was not "entitled to have it""
      "It made it a crime: To convey information with intent to interfere with the operation or success of the armed forces of the United States or to promote the success of its enemies."
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

  37. Re:Whistleblowing? Yup by squiggleslash · · Score: 1

    The Intercept is foreign? Have we really reached a level of Russiafication of the US now that American journalists are considered foreign, presumably because they're not Russian?

    --
    You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
  38. Re: When you join military/intelligence agencies . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    She is a private contractor and not a government employee or member of the military. Therefore by the first admendment congress can pass no law to restrict her speech.

  39. Re:Whistleblowing? Yup by drnb · · Score: 1

    The Intercept is foreign? Have we really reached a level of Russiafication of the US now that American journalists are considered foreign, presumably because they're not Russian?

    I thought Greenwald was UK for some reason, probably because of his work for The Guardian.

  40. So where's the war? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Requires a declaration from the senate, and that hasn't happened. Without that, you can't be a traitor.

    Oh, and the USA used to belong to the UK, so by historical precedent, pay your back taxes, biatch.

    1. Re:So where's the war? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      War does not require a declaration of war from both sides. It's possible for one country to attack another with no declarations issued, but they're still at war.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  41. Re: When you join military/intelligence agencies . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    She is a private contractor and not a government employee or member of the military. Therefore by the first admendment congress can pass no law to restrict her speech.

    By voluntarily seeking and acquiring a security clearance to work with classified information she has voluntarily waived some rights. She has a contract with the government regarding the security clearance if not employment.

  42. Note from HQ: Attack the Messenger more. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Note from HQ: Attack the Messenger more.

  43. Bad analogy. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The government is not a pop band, and the Beatles aren't lopping off a sum of your wages at gunpoint.

    Not that I agree with the idiot du jure at all - this isn't whistleblowing to uncover some nefarious, dastardly plot to keep out government accountable; it's pure political bullshit.

  44. Re:Whistleblowing? Yup by Richard_at_work · · Score: 1

    The document seems to be a summary of an *ongoing* investigation - in what way is it "hidden evidence"?

    She saw something juicy, and she leaked it - theres nothing here which is whistleblowing. In the document she released, there is no evidence of wrong doing by the NSA, her employers, her colleagues or the government, just some information on an in progress investigation.

  45. why is no one suprised about the speed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    in which the government worked this one time..

    i mean with all the recent publicity regarding hacking and email scams and leaks and yet this is the only one where the government has done something the exact same day! and after 344 pm..

    just based on that alone something smells fishy..

    I mean we have had reports of Russian hacking (no proof or indictments yet). Even in the case of Hillary's email server it still took some time to sort through all of this..

    The speed in which this all happened just smells fishy, almost like a false flag OP. One that the intercept fell for. it all happened to quickly to be natural and the name just sounds fake as F.

  46. Who decides? by StreamingEagle · · Score: 1

    Snowden complains that the Espionage Act..." explicitly forbids the jury from hearing why the defendant acted, and bars them from deciding whether the outcome was to the public's benefit". You see, Ed, the problem with traitors like you is that you feel you have the right to unilaterally decide whether the classified material you were entrusted to access should be leaked to the public. Did you go to a classified jury, to get a classified decision from a panel of your peers? Did you have a full understanding of the harm to our government's capabilities and clandestine assets? No, you just decided that because of your passionate political beliefs, it would be in everyone's best interest if you just leaked everything. The damage you caused to National Security can hardly be overstated. You went far beyond any reasonable definition of "whistleblowing". You informed all of our adversaries of the precise capabilities of our abilities to intercept communications and to decrypt encrypted content. You're a traitor, and a moron. Reality Winner is a traitor and a moron.

    1. Re:Who decides? by jm007 · · Score: 1

      Sounds like you're fine with unilateral decisions from others, though. People with no accountability, and certainly their own biases, are the last people to ever decide things such as whether or not something is whistleblowing or espionage.

      Sure, try her. Let her defend herself as she sees fit. Let a jury of peers decide guilt. Then, and only then, is punishment acceptable. Before destroying someone's life, if you don't even see the sense in letting them say their piece then you're no better than any fucking commie or fascist we're supposedly at odds with.

    2. Re:Who decides? by StreamingEagle · · Score: 1

      "Sounds like you're fine with unilateral decisions from others, though"... huh? You lost me there. No, I'm not ok with unilateral decisions for declassifying classified material, unless we're talking about an executive with the proper authority (like the President of the United States). My point seems to have eluded you. Any individual in our Intelligence community, armed services, or government contractors shouldn't have such an inflated sense of self-importance that they feel justified in taking this kind of action. We don't care what your politics are. We don't care if you don't like the President, or his stance on the environment. Do your damn job, and don't screw the country in your pursuit of social justice. Rant on Twitter and Facebook all you want, but telling the Russians what we know about their activities is not cool.

    3. Re:Who decides? by sabbede · · Score: 1

      Winner is a moron, as her parents clearly are (only an idiot names a child "Reality Winner"). But more importantly, Snowden is just plain wrong about the law. The jury can consider intent.

  47. Oh gee, no agenda here by backwardsposter · · Score: 1

    "For this act, she has been charged with violating the Espionage Act -- a World War I era law meant for spies -- "

    You can't tell me there are no agendas in a comment like this. You can't just state something like that as if it's fact.

    1. Re:Oh gee, no agenda here by Jack9 · · Score: 1

      > No matter one's opinions on the propriety of the charges against her, we should all agree Winner should be released on bail pending trial

      This statement is also indefensible. "No matter anyone's opinion...we SHOULD all agree". While I agree the process is bad, she definitely should be held without bail. She is VERY likely to say something else stupidly criminal.

      --

      Often wrong but never in doubt.
      I am Jack9.
      Everyone knows me.
    2. Re:Oh gee, no agenda here by mpercy · · Score: 1

      The Espionage Act of 1917 has been superseded by plenty of more modern law. As near as I can tell, there's nothing like "explicitly forbids the jury from hearing why the defendant acted, and bars them from deciding whether the outcome was to the public's benefit." in current law. Indeed, the matter is clearly described in US Code.

      18 U.S. Code 798 - Disclosure of classified information

      (a) Whoever knowingly and willfully communicates, furnishes, transmits, or otherwise makes available to an unauthorized person, or publishes, or uses in any manner prejudicial to the safety or interest of the United States or for the benefit of any foreign government to the detriment of the United States any classified information—
      (1) concerning the nature, preparation, or use of any code, cipher, or cryptographic system of the United States or any foreign government; or
      (2) concerning the design, construction, use, maintenance, or repair of any device, apparatus, or appliance used or prepared or planned for use by the United States or any foreign government for cryptographic or communication intelligence purposes; or
      (3) concerning the communication intelligence activities of the United States or any foreign government; or
      (4) obtained by the processes of communication intelligence from the communications of any foreign government, knowing the same to have been obtained by such processes—
      Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.

      It would be quite a stretch to try to jump to prosecuting under 794. Gathering or delivering defense information to aid foreign government

      (which, by the way, is the only place in the Chapter where the word jury is used..."except that the sentence of death shall not be imposed unless the jury or, if there is no jury, the court, further finds that the offense...")

      794. Gathering or delivering defense information to aid foreign government

      (a) Whoever, with intent or reason to believe that it is to be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of a foreign nation, communicates, delivers, or transmits, or attempts to communicate, deliver, or transmit, to any foreign government, or to any faction or party or military or naval force within a foreign country, whether recognized or unrecognized by the United States, or to any representative, officer, agent, employee, subject, or citizen thereof, either directly or indirectly, any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, note, instrument, appliance, or information relating to the national defense, shall be punished by death or by imprisonment for any term of years or for life, except that the sentence of death shall not be imposed unless the jury or, if there is no jury, the court, further finds that the offense resulted in the identification by a foreign power (as defined in section 101(a) of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978) of an individual acting as an agent of the United States and consequently in the death of that individual, or directly concerned nuclear weaponry, military spacecraft or satellites, early warning systems, or other means of defense or retaliation against large-scale attack; war plans; communications intelligence or cryptographic information; or any other major weapons system or major element of defense strategy.

  48. Good Grief! Hyperbole much? by s.petry · · Score: 1

    In what way is the country functioning now? Republicans are only interested in helping their party and destroying anyone outside their tribe.

    Democrats are not doing the same thing with exactly your next statements?

    We have a president elected despite losing by 3 million votes.

    The United States of America has _NEVER_EVER_ elected a President by popular vote. The founders saw the danger in a tyranny by majority and saw fit that we have an Electoral College to protect us from exactly that thing. Citation: Read the Federalist papers

    We're unable to agree with everyone else and a majority of our citizens that yes, healthcare is something that is important and yes,

    "We" is in invalid generalization. Perhaps in your bubble the next things are the most important thing ever (more on that in a moment) but that is not "we", that is "you".

    dumping excess carbon dioxide into the atmosphere is a bad thing.

    And you as a consumer can ensure that you purchase products made in the most efficient way. We don't need Government taxing the poor to pay for things they don't have, and can't be bothered to worry about.

    There is a big difference between you stealing from me with government force, and me wanting to make changes which benefit society. In fact, as a general rule the louder you scream demanding the fruits of my labor, the more I push back against you which impacts your cause. I, like many fellow people in the world, ignore appeals to emotion.

    We don't have a functioning state department and are actively turning on our allies.

    Too vague to be worth discussing.

    Did a foreign power decide our election? Dunno, the unelected party is preventing any serious investigation.

    Not according to the last administration or this one, and no evidence has been presented to back such an allegation. The investigation started nearly 11 months ago and we still have seen no evidence of foreign interference in our election process. Testimony from Clapper, Comey, and Rogers all stated that our election was not "hacked", and that no votes were changed.

    If evidence surfaces perhaps we can discuss it further. Until then, you are simply repeating a propositional fallacy like many other people. I find it very sad that repeating faulty logic has become so common, and worse, people think they are "smart" by doing it.

    --

    -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

  49. Fuck off, Snowden by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How is it that this guy expects to be given credibility as an expert on anything? Now he's a legal expert of some kind, interpreting the Espionage Act like he's some sort of goddamn Ivy League law professor or Supreme Court justice? Fuck him.

  50. Re:Good Grief! Hyperbole much? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "The United States of America has _NEVER_EVER_ elected a President by popular vote." Misleading as stated.

  51. Re:Good Grief! Hyperbole much? by s.petry · · Score: 1

    Misleading? How? I call BS without much more clarification and even then most likely still a BS claim.

    Prior to the Electoral College, States chose Electors. In 1787 six of the ten voting States used any form of popular vote to determine the election. In 1792, six of fifteen states used popular votes to determine the election. In both of those elections "Electors" were tallied, not vote counts for a popular vote.

    --

    -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

  52. Russia aware by DrYak · · Score: 1

    While she wasn't so foolish as to reveal any methods or resources, we can't be certain whether Russia was aware we were onto them.

    It's motherfucking *Russia*.
    Home of FSB, and before that KGB.

    Do you really believe that they could genuinely be unaware of this ?
    That they, with all their might, were totally unable to know things that an inexperienced, extremely young, and rather emotionaly unstable / immature contractor has managed to get hold onto ?

    Or is it more likely that they were aware, but simply pretended not to, and this leak a convenient pretext to stop acting surprised anymore.

    (The same argument I've been repeating about any actual use of Snowden for Russia beyond the obvious PR / Propaganda).

    --
    "Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
  53. "Alleged Journalistic Source" ?? by mpercy · · Score: 1

    She has been charged for removing classified data from controls and providing it to unauthorized persons.

    If she had handed it out to her friends, she'd have been charged with the same thing (had it been discovered). Had she provided it to Russia or China or Israel, eventually she'd probably get caught and charged with spying too.

    It was not because she provided it to media, although doing so certainly led the government right to her.

    You simply cannot read and sign the security agreements that go along with access and expect to be able to ignore them because of feelz, politics, or even "whistleblowing" without consequences. Handing classified documents over to media is no different than handing them over to China.

    The paperwork I signed for my clearance had "punishable by death" in them...

  54. US Navy sailor jailed for workplace photos by mpercy · · Score: 1

    This is not some sort of overreaction, if you mishandle classified data, expect prison...even under Obama...

    https://www.theguardian.com/us...

    Kristian Saucier, of Arlington, Vermont, appeared in federal court in Bridgeport, where a judge also ordered him to serve six months of home confinement with electronic monitoring during a three-year period of supervised release after the prison time. He pleaded guilty in May to unauthorized detention of defense information and had faced five to six years in prison under federal sentencing guidelines.

    Saucier admitted to taking six photos of classified areas inside the USS Alexandria in 2009 when it was in Groton and he was a 22-year-old machinist mate on the submarine. The photos showed the nuclear reactor compartment, the auxiliary steam propulsion panel and the maneuvering compartment, prosecutors said.

    Saucier took the photos knowing they were classified, but did so only to be able to show his family and future children what he did while he was in the Navy, his lawyers said. He denied sharing the photos with any unauthorized recipient.

    Prosecutors asked US district judge Stefan Underhill to send Saucier to prison for five years, saying his conduct put national security at risk.

    1. Re:US Navy sailor jailed for workplace photos by mpercy · · Score: 1

      "if you mishandle classified data, expect prison...even under Obama..."

      Should have said "Unless you're Hillary Clinton."

  55. 8th Amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted."

    Just sayin'.

  56. Ok let's explore that by mpercy · · Score: 1

    What "whistleblowing" took place? Did she expose some illegal activity on the part of the US Government? Did she expose some illegal activity on the part of the US Government personnel? Not that I've seen. So far as I understand it, she just exposed normal, run-of-the-mill intelligence data collected about foreign government actions.

    Did she pursue the "whistleblowing" chain-of-command? The United States Presidential Policy Directive 19, signed by President Barack Obama, is designed to ensure that employees who serve in the Intelligence Community or have access to classified information can effectively report waste, fraud, and abuse, while protecting classified information. Did she follow those procedures?

    No, I think not. She took classified documents directly to the press, thus the charges she faces.

    I think the above can be explored in court, and jurors can reasonably decide if she broke the law or should be protected as a whistleblower without requiring access to the classified data itself.

    1. Re:Ok let's explore that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You know damned well that when the chain of command is the problem, you will get no results and most likely some retaliation. Sometimes they need to be bypassed.

  57. Try a 1st Amendment argue to lie on 1040 by mpercy · · Score: 1

    You have a constitutional right to write anything you want. But I don't think you get a 1st Amendment pass to lie of your taxes.

    And she had the benefit of specifically subjecting herself to the strictures and subsequent penalties when she sign her security paperwork.

    Mishandling classified data does not require treason, nor intent. You either handle it properly or you don't. If you fail to handle it properly, you can go to prison. Period. It doesn't matter why you did it, even if it was accidental.

    1. Re: Try a 1st Amendment argue to lie on 1040 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unless you are Hillary Clinton, of course.

  58. Well I guess Snowden is the expert on flight risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's just too bad that Ms Winner doesn't know she is the designated patsy for the deep state traitors so the press has something to chew on and they can continue their sabotage unchecked. Too bad she doesn't even know who they are in able to be able to trade the knowledge for some easier treatment. Too bad she is going to get the max penalty while Chelsea Manning is pardoned and Snowden is getting fat on borscht and vodka. Too bad her actions were only blatant messing in domestic politics with classified information so there is no chance of a whistleblower defense. Too bad here stupidity is doubtless going to get her into even more trouble. Too bad she had a Top Secret clearance and has proved she cannot be trusted so must be kept incommunicado. Enjoy solitary, leaker.

  59. Re:Good Grief! Hyperbole much? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We have a president elected despite losing by 3 million votes.

    The United States of America has _NEVER_EVER_ elected a President by popular vote. The founders saw the danger in a tyranny by majority and saw fit that we have an Electoral College to protect us from exactly that thing. Citation: Read the Federalist papers

    Actually there have only been five elections where a President has won without holding the majority of votes by popular vote. Yes, the election outcomes are determined by the electoral votes and the popular vote doesn't determine the outcome, but often the electoral vote is strongly correlated to the popular vote.

    And if you want to talk about the horrors of the tyranny by a majority, there's something worse, the tyranny by a minority.

  60. Two Words by mwsidwel · · Score: 1

    Jury Nullification!

    1. Re:Two Words by ebvwfbw · · Score: 0

      Jury Nullification!

      On what grounds? You don't like Trump? Does that mean I can leak something if I don't like the next guy? Don't be stupid.

      Besides, that document was clearly a plant, it was clearly meant to catch someone, probably her. She was stupid enough to take the bait. She should be buried up to her chest and we should stone her to death. She likes Islam after all, so it's fitting. I'll settle for hanging her.

  61. Leaks to journalists in every case by dbIII · · Score: 1

    new NSA contractor and Manning released the classified information to the public.

    No - to an American journalist each time and not directly to the public.
    Petraeus leaked it to a journalist as well. Distracting with reserve ranks and so on is just dishonest - she was not cleared for the information and she was working in the capacity of a journalist and not in the capacity of a military officer with a right to the information.

    So all of them leaking to American journalists. No espionage involved.

    It's rather funny to see you acting against one of the major ideas of the American way, that nobody is above or below the law, just to push your petty little partisan barrow. That's very Soviet of you putting "The Party" ahead of the country.

    1. Re:Leaks to journalists in every case by drnb · · Score: 1

      new NSA contractor and Manning released the classified information to the public.

      No - to an American journalist each time and not directly to the public.

      Leaked to a journalist with the intent of the information going public.

      Petraeus leaked it to a journalist as well. Distracting with reserve ranks and so on is just dishonest - she was not cleared for the information and she was working in the capacity of a journalist and not in the capacity of a military officer with a right to the information.

      Hence his guilty plea, yet the simple truth is that she had no intention to pass the information on to the public. She was working as a co-author on his bio. Very different circumstances. A very poor analogy for the current NSA contractor.

    2. Re:Leaks to journalists in every case by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Leaked to a journalist with the intent of the information going public.

      So you think telling national secrets to get laid is a far more noble practice?

      What is it with this blind tribalism? Petraeus is a textbook example of what not to do. That he's being employed in a position of responsibility again is a sign that those who leaked far sensitive information for far better reasons are not necessarily unemployable.

      no intention to pass the information on to the public

      A journalist had no intention of passing the information on to the public? That is their job.
      What's with the pretence of mental impairment?

  62. Re: edward snowden iis a TRAITOR! by sabbede · · Score: 1

    Nice.

  63. Woodrow Wilson strikes again by eric_harris_76 · · Score: 1

    Those who claim that the second decade of the 20th century was a source of terrible laws and court rulings now have another datapoint in support of their contention. Several bad FDR administration actions were exercises of presidential power granted during that period.

    And now this.

    --
    There's no time like the present. Well, the past used to be.
  64. Re:Good Grief! Hyperbole much? by sysrammer · · Score: 1

    "I find it very sad that repeating faulty logic has become so common, and worse, people think they are "smart" by doing it."

    Yes. When a political strategy works astoundingly well, the opposition will attempt to co-opt it.

    --
    His ignorance covered the whole earth like a blanket, and there was hardly a hole in it anywhere. - Mark Twain