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Home Improvement Chains Accused of False Advertising Over Lumber Dimensions (consumerist.com)
per unit analyzer writes: According to Consumerist, an attorney has filed a class-action lawsuit charging Home Depot (PDF) and Menards (PDF) with deceptive advertising practices by selling "lumber products that were falsely advertised and labeled as having product dimensions that were not the actual dimensions of the products sold." Now granted, this may be news to the novice DIYer, but overall most folks who are purchasing lumber at home improvement stores know that the so-called trade sizes don't match the actual dimensions of the lumber. Do retailers need to educate naive consumers about every aspect of the items they sell? (Especially industry quirks such as this...) Furthermore, as the article notes, it's hard to see how the plaintiffs have been damaged when these building materials are compatible with the construction of the purchaser's existing buildings. i.e., An "actual" 2x4 would not fit in a wall previously built with standard 2x4s -- selling the something as advertised would actually cause the purchaser more trouble in many cases.
I was told that builder dimensions are slightly smaller to account for (1) the drywall that is usually mounted to the outside or (2) the dimensions are the rough cut before the wood is dried and planed. In any case, a good dad should have explained this to you.
I thought it was normal for a 2x4 to actually measure 1.5x3.5 because of the planing that happens or somesuch.
Indeed. If a 2x4 was actually 2"x4" that would be deceptive, because it would not be a standard 2x4 and would not fit in standard framing. If I buy a 2x4, I want it to be 1.5x3.5, nothing more, nothing less.
The dimensions of the timber are based on the rough sawn dimensions. Most timber you buy from the store has been subsequently "dressed" or planed to a smooth and more importantly uniform finish.
This is well known to anyone buying timber and has been like this for over a century.
"Do you think we could wipe out world hunger forever if scientists figured out how to make AOL's Free CD's edible?"-
It is, and it's obvious the lawsuit will fail. Most judges probably know that a 2x4 is 1.5x3.5. Next someone will sue because the sweater they bought doesn't sweat.
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain
No, you just think that because some applications on some OSes report the size in asinine GiB units, notwithstanding the fact that no persistent storage device ever made has had any natural relation to 2^20, 2^30, etc.
It's like if the home center sold you boards that are actually 2 inches by 4 inches in size, but they also gave you a ruler with bogus extra-large inches that made it look like 1.5 X 3.5. (The same rulers would have bogus feet that have slightly more than 12 of those bogus inches, so a calculator would necessary for nearly every measurement.)
the fact that no persistent storage device ever made has had any natural relation to 2^20, 2^30, etc.
How come? Disks use 512/4096 byte sectors, erase blocks of powers of two, etc -- not a single power of 10 around. And non-sleazy manufacturers who provide sizes in actual rather than marketing gigabytes do exist.
I got an unopened SD card whose back writing includes "1GB = 1,073,741,824"; I remember a few disks that mention their capacity in real giga/terabytes too.
The creatures outside looked from Alt-Right to Antifa; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
In fact, here's some linkies:
From the NIST (PDF)
American Softwood Lumbar Standards - Voluntary Product Standard DOC PS 20â"99
More from the NIST (HTML)
Title: Making Sure that Lumber Measures Up
I don't really think one needs to go much farther...
If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
Magnetic core was X * Y of whatever arbitrary count the array of magnetic core was beaded to. No power of two is required.
Check your math. You've just confused yourself, since floppy "Megabytes" are an even more stupid unit equal to 1024*1000, which is not 2^20.. This floppy-specific "megabyte" is not used for anything else on planet earth, and is almost certainly not what you were assuming to be the "correct" megabyte for storage.
So thanks for helping me to prove my point.
The timber industry (or home repair? Who??) decades ago redefined the size
They didn't redefine the meaning, they simply defined it in the first place. Before that standard, a finished 2x4 came in all sorts of different sizes. For many places you the size was for the green lumber, which meant it changed after being dried and again when surfaced. Other places the size was after drying, but before surfacing (you see this a lot in older homes with rough cut studs). It was often not even consistent from the same mill when they did a bad job of measuring moisture levels before drying, and just cut everything to the same size. Sometimes this mean ripping studs on site for construction (again, how you sometimes get actual 2x4 dimensions at old homes).
The standard size came later when technology improved such that quick and cheap measuring of moisture made it efficient to get the green sizing correct and to not waste much when planing to a standard size.
Yeah, plumbing is not for the feint of heart or slow witted. Pipe sizes are - in theory - the inside diameter (tubing sizes are the outside diameter), but when working with pipe and pipe fittings, it is the outside diameter that matters. And the sizes were set many, many years ago, when manufacturing costs were cheap, and stuff was made to last several lifetimes. In short, the wall of the pipe was a hell of a lot thicker then. Even today, you get multiple schedules of pipe, from 40 (which today is sorta standard for quality work) to 80 or even higher - the higher the number, the thicker the wall, the more pressure it can hold. But the outside diameter has to be the same on all sizes. (Copper pipe, of course, has a thinner wall than steel or plastic, and thus has "types" - M, L or K - instead of "schedules", but the principle is the same. Type M is such thin shit you can blow a hole in it by peeing real hard, type K will hold the weight of a mountain.)
And people wonder why plumbers make more than doctors.
I just checked Home Depot's website and in the product overview for a framing 2x4 it gives the following information:
Common: 2 in. x 4 in. x 8 ft.; Actual: 1.5 in. x 3.5 in. x 96 in.
Lowes, Menard's, and all the other stores of this type say the same thing. Nobody is lying about what they're selling. This lawsuit is the epitome of frivolous lawsuits and should be thrown out the first day.
Back in the 1800s, when you bought a "2x4" from the lumber mill it was green and "rough". That means it had too much moisture content to be used right away, it almost certainly twisted significantly along its length, and was pretty far from rectangular in its cross section. But that cross section was at least two inches by four inches.
So lumber wasn't sold ready to use. What you did was you stacked it in your barn for a few months to dry out, then if you needed an accurate shape you'd run the board through a jointer-planer to produce smooth, precise, parallel surfaces. Both these operations reduce the dimensions of the finished lumber.
By the early 20th century lumber mills started doing all this work for you so you could buy a 2x4 board and use it the same day. Far from cheating the customer as you claim, they're actually adding value by curing it and milling it down to a standard shape. Since 1924 the standard has been that 2 inches rough-hewn is always planed down to 1.5 inches; 4 to 3.5; 8 to 7.25, 10 to 9.25 and 12 to 11.25. But if you went to the lumber mill with a tape measure, you'd see that the 1.5 x 3.5 finished boards indeed start their life as 2 x 4 inch rough boards.
If you think about it, a lumber mill that cheated its customers on dimension would go out of business fast. You'd lay out your project, figure out how many boards you'd need, and not only would you come up short, nothing would fit as expected. The whole point of milling the softwood lumber to a standardized dimension is that you could plan out your material requirements exactly and then buy exactly what you need, when you need it.
Given that the dimensions of finished softwood lumber have been set by national standards for the last 90 years, I'm guessing the lawyer who brought the suit is either an idiot or is looking for a quick nuisance payoff.
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