Kaspersky Lab Says It Has Become Pawn in US-Russia Geopolitical Game (reuters.com)

bickering children by dehachel12 · 2017-07-12 02:42 · Score: 2

bickering children. the lot.

Re:bickering children by dehachel12 · 2017-07-12 02:43 · Score: 4, Insightful

children with nuclear weapons.
Re:bickering children by Anonymous Coward · 2017-07-12 03:00 · Score: 4, Insightful

Russia reverted to an illiberal criminal-syndicate state.
Not something the West has had much luck working with.
Re:bickering children by Opportunist · 2017-07-12 03:09 · Score: 4, Insightful

Hans plays with Lotte, Lotte plays with Jane
Jane plays with Willi, Willi is happy again
Suki plays with Leo, Sacha plays with Britt
Adolf builts a bonfire, Enrico plays with it

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We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Re:bickering children by xxxJonBoyxxx · 2017-07-12 03:20 · Score: 2

>> The Cold...should have ended...let it go.

Just when I thought I had the "Frozen" soundtrack out of my head.
Re:bickering children by bobbied · 2017-07-12 03:24 · Score: 4, Insightful

The Cold War should have ended 25 years ago. But we just can't let it go.
Who is WE you are talking about?
Since the fall of the Berlin wall and Glasnost in Russia, who has been the aggressor and why?
The cold war WAS over until the Russians under Putin decided that they'd revive it for geopolitical reasons. Putin is doing all this in order to keep looking powerful and getting elected, but at this point it's all just show. Putin knows that a full frontal conflict with the USA would be a disaster for him, but he certainly is willing to take the risk of starting something he cannot finish in order to stay in power.
And what's the US's motivation? Generally we just want to engage in profitable trade and keep oil prices low/stable...With a bit of "keeping the terrorists at bay" thrown in of course.

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"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
Re:bickering children by Immerman · 2017-07-12 04:02 · Score: 3, Insightful

>And what's the US's motivation?
Just off the top of my head...
The military-industrial complex still wields a lot of political clout, and a good enemy helps keep the defense contracts flowing.
We're also rapidly becoming an authoritarian surveillance state, and the "war on terror" is running out of steam as a distraction/justification for that. Having a more credible foreign threat helps keep that ball rolling as well.

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--- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
Re:bickering children by Dan+East · 2017-07-12 04:07 · Score: 1, Insightful

Don't forget the destabilization of Ukraine and the annexation of Crimea.

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Better known as 318230.
Re:bickering children by bobbied · 2017-07-12 04:35 · Score: 2

Shesh... Really? You oppose one of the few purposes of the Federal government actually mentioned in the constitution?
Defending the United States and its interests is a hugely expensive effort because it's a difficult task. But by all means, let's unilaterally disarm and ignore what has happened EVERY time we did this before (not!)... Yea, we won WWI and WWII but had we not disarmed just prior to their start the effort would not have cost us as much material and blood.. Korea is another great example of not being ready; how many men died before we could get our act together there?
History repeats itself. AND Those who know history are condemned to sit and helplessly watch while the world repeats it...

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"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
Re:bickering children by unixisc · 2017-07-12 04:37 · Score: 2, Insightful

Who is WE you are talking about?
Since the fall of the Berlin wall and Glasnost in Russia, who has been the aggressor and why?
Okay, before Putin came to power, which is what you described, the US was the aggressor. Like during Clinton's 'Wag the dog' operation in bombing Serbia, which never did anything remotely anti-American. By supporting Chechen rebels against Russia. By continuing to expand NATO, despite the fact that NATO's rationale for existing - countering the Warsaw Pact & the Soviet Union - were gone!
GP was right. On 9/11, Islam showed us that it had succeeded Communism as the ideological enemy of not just the West, but the entire non-Muslim world. Yet we still have the bulk of our establishment politicians - both Democrat & Republican - obsessed w/ Russia. It showed in the 2000s, when the Bush Administration, despite the support from Uzbekistan, supported an attempt to oust the regime of Islam Karimov, who kept Jihadists in his country suppressed: in response to that, Tashkent canned 2 US air bases that were used in Afghan operations. The McCains, the Grahams, the Rubios are all a bunch of cretins who think that the hammer & sickle still fly in Moscow, but can't see Jihadists in Orlando or San Bernardino
Re:bickering children by alvinrod · 2017-07-12 04:37 · Score: 1

Russia came out about in the middle (albeit maybe on the low-middle side) as far as former communist states went. Look at some of the ones that collapsed into civil war like Somalia and/or became theocracies run by religious hardliners like Afghanistan to see how much worse it could have been.
Re:bickering children by Anonymous Coward · 2017-07-12 06:06 · Score: 1

We're all being played. You haven't realized that yet? It's all a big "theater" of war, that's how they control us. They are definitely leading us back into a cold war scare but hopefully people aren't falling for it too much this time.
Re:bickering children by DigiShaman · 2017-07-12 06:34 · Score: 1

So, are you admitting that Communism is a failure?! I mean, even today Russia is a kleptocracy, just with less pomp and zeal behind it. Right-O! All the liberals among you, take note!

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Life is not for the lazy.
Re:bickering children by bongey · 2017-07-12 07:27 · Score: 1

Nope we invade or help overthrow the government and the local population does the assassinations for us.
And I am a Iraq war veteran from 2002-2003. I said it was BS for going to Iraq then, and still think that today.
Re:bickering children by dunkelfalke · 2017-07-12 07:58 · Score: 4, Interesting

Not sure if trolling or just very stupid, but probably the latter.
The first Chechen war started when Putin was just an aide to a mayor, when islamists rebelled in a province of Russia. But setting that aside, what you are basically saying is that supporting islamist separatists was a good thing because it was about countering the aggression of the government forces (a.k.a "the federals"). If that is the case, why exactly do you condemn Russia supporting separatists in the Ukraine? Do separatists need to be islamists for you to cheer for them? Do you support the islamic state as well?

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"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
Re:bickering children by bobbied · 2017-07-12 08:31 · Score: 1

Some don't agree and felt that the war in Iraq was justified. In fact, CONGRESS agreed at the time with both Iraq and the Afghan wars. Heck, even the UN agreed with this decision... I'm sorry you don't agree, but you are entitled to think what you want.
Thanks for your service.

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"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
Re:bickering children by Darinbob · 2017-07-12 09:27 · Score: 1

Putin came to power by engineering a war with Chechnya, Yeltsin seemed to basically step aside for him (maybe in return for promising to drop investigations). Everytime Putin does another invasion he gets a big surge in popularity. Right now the only difference between Putin in Russia today and the premieres in the Soviet era is that the Soviets at least had an ideology that they followed and you could quickly drop from favor if you appeared to not be ideologically correct.
Re:bickering children by Darinbob · 2017-07-12 09:31 · Score: 1

The US wastes a ton of money on things that do not improve our readiness at defense. It's a huge waste but too few dare criticize it lest they appear unpatriotic. You could cut the budget by 1/3 and still spend more per capita on defense than most countries.
Re:bickering children by sheph · 2017-07-12 09:53 · Score: 1

That's a great song!

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I don't believe in karma, I just call it like I see it.
Re:bickering children by MightyMartian · 2017-07-12 10:10 · Score: 2

Serbians were committing genocide. They deserved to bombed.

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The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
Re:bickering children by bobbied · 2017-07-12 10:36 · Score: 2

The US wastes a ton of money on things that do not improve our readiness at defense. It's a huge waste but too few dare criticize it lest they appear unpatriotic. You could cut the budget by 1/3 and still spend more per capita on defense than most countries.
Hmm... You sound like Donald Trump...
Having worked for the department of defense both directly and as a contractor, I am well aware of how money gets seemingly wasted. Most large government activities are inefficient. Some of this is though fraud and abuse and THAT you can find and fix, but some of the waste is very intractable. I was a government contracting official, charged with contracting with suppliers to buy things, at one point. I can tell you that this cost issue seems to be overblown to me, given the rules and requirements of the department of defense. Things like the $600 toilet seat and $250 hammer are actually NOT what they seem when you looked at the circumstances behind them and the rules everybody had to follow....
The Federal Regulations I had to follow where literally full shelf of binders in my bookcase. The first page contained a purpose clause that went something like this "The purpose of these rules is to avoid the appearance of fraud and abuse when the department of defense buys stuff"..
Go back and re-read that until you see the REAL problem here...

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"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
Re:bickering children by bobbied · 2017-07-12 10:48 · Score: 1

Wow, what a leap...
No, I'm saying that *generally* the Russians have been the aggressors in the conflicts we've had with them either directly or by proxy since the cold war, not us. I know that folks like to paint the USA as the overriding aggressive military power in the world running around creating havoc due to our imperialist bent, but this simply is NOT true. We have put our oar in a couple of places that in retrospect where mistakes or where the results where less than we had hoped, but in most cases our purpose is to better the world and not just enrich ourselves.
History is full of examples of this, where the USA spent treasure and shed our own blood for the betterment of others...
Putin's history is a lot more self serving...

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"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
Re:bickering children by benjfowler · 2017-07-12 11:34 · Score: 1

The "MIC needs a reason to exist" mythology is an old Cold War lie that the Soviets peddled to attack one of the West's key strengths: its defence industry. One of a myriad of lies the Kremlin and its fellow-travellers peddle constantly, in order to weaken and undermine us.
We know why this crisis is happening. It's because Chekists define themselves as opposition to the West in general, and America in particular. They create the mythical straw-man as Russia as pure and noble and the West as decadent and evil, and they, of course, are "indispensible" as its self-appointed guardians. So rather than being content to serve their country as Western spooks do, they see themselves as the rulers... and naturally, this comes with a massive sense of material entitlement, so they are at the same time, the most greedy thieves in the world.
Yevgeny Kaspersky is a Chekist. OF FUCKING COURSE he's thick with the Kremlin. As Vova himself says, "there are no former Chekists".
Thieving Chekist fascist scum like Putin need a reason to exist. It explains the irrational, mindless aggression of the Russian side, and why they'll continue to test limts: as barbarians, they only respect force, but despise weakness. They know they've been at war with us; we've only just woken up.
Re:bickering children by bobbied · 2017-07-12 12:34 · Score: 1

Yea, we should have just let the communist in Russia and China overrun or friends in South Korea, that's the ticket....
Do they even try to teach history in school these days? Do folks have ANY idea what the geopolitical situation was right after WW2 and WHY we went into Korea under the authority of the UN?

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"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
Re:bickering children by Immerman · 2017-07-12 13:12 · Score: 1

Right, we've had several retired presidents warn of the dangerous degree of influence of the MIC, but some guy on the internet says it's a Soviet propaganda, so I'm sure it's not a problem...

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--- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
Re: bickering children by dunkelfalke · 2017-07-12 17:45 · Score: 1

Yep, very stupid it is. Care to explain how supporting terrorists in Nicaragua or islamists in Afghanistan made the world better?

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"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
Re:bickering children by Opportunist · 2017-07-12 23:07 · Score: 1

Dude, all you had to do is literally hit the link he provided. It's the lyrics of the first verse of the song.

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We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Re:bickering children by unixisc · 2017-07-13 06:32 · Score: 1

As dundelfalke pointed out above, the First Chechen war happened during Yeltsin's leadership, immediately after the Soviet Union dissolved. The Chechens wanted to become independent of Russia.
It might have been one thing to support them at the beginning. But years later, when the Chechens have shown that they are Jihadists - be it in the Moscow theater, Beslan, Boston or Chechnya itself, why does anybody who doesn't want to see the West destroyed think that the Chechens are worth supporting? It would instead make sense for the US to form an alliance w/ Russia against Islamic forces of all types - be it ISIS, Iran, Qatar, Turkey, Saudi Arabia and so on
Re: bickering children by unixisc · 2017-07-13 06:35 · Score: 1

I woudn't draw that equivalence. The Contras in Nicaragua never became a permanent problem - in fact, they became extinct once Nicaragua went democratic. Afghanistan, OTOH, went from a Soviet occupied country to an Islamic ruled country to a Jihadist supporting regime in the Taliban to another Islamic regime under Karzai.
Re:bickering children by unixisc · 2017-07-13 06:36 · Score: 2

No, they were fighting Albanian Muslim separatists in Kosovo, who incidentally created problems not only for Serbia, but also for Macedonia, which was not a Serbian power oppressing Muslims
Re:bickering children by unixisc · 2017-07-13 06:41 · Score: 1

The whole idea of NATO was to protect as many European countries as possible from Communism - namely the Warsaw Pact. In 1991, not only did the Warsaw Pact come undone, w/ the exits of Poland, Czechoslovakia & Hungary, but also the Soviet Union came undone. Some of the ex Soviet leaders remained in power in their countries, like in Belarus, Kazakhstan & Uzbekistan, but Russia, which was the successor state to the USSR, was no longer Communist.
Given that reality, NATO should have disbanded. Since the EU was looking at expanding, they could have included the Eastern European countries in an economic agreement, and gone as far as Ukraine, Georgia & Armenia. Even a rebranding of NATO might have helped. Instead, by continuing to expand NATO, they just made it impossible for Russia, who saw that the military threat against them wasn't going away, no matter what they did.
Re:bickering children by unixisc · 2017-07-13 07:04 · Score: 1

Given the intelligence then, the Iraq war seemed justified at the time due to the suspicion of WMDs, and them getting into the hands of Jihadists. But the real mistake in both Iraq & Afghanistan was making those long term projects.
In Afghanistan, in December 2001, after Kandahar fell to the US forces and the Taliban regime collapsed, that was when the war should have ended for the US. Yeah, have special forces in the country & Pakistan to scour for Osama, but don't try designing a new government. Instead, the US was a participant in the creation of a constitution that stated that no law would contradict Sharia, and put in power a corrupt leader as the president of Afghanistan, who's today a sourpus.
Similarly, in Iraq, after Iraqis pulled down that Saddam statue and President Bush stood on that ship saying 'Mission Accomplished', that's where it should have ended. Yeah, have a search for the WMDs, but aside from that, don't get into rebuilding the country. Reason Iraq & Afghanistan were a fiasco was that the US spent billions of dollars rebuilding them to levels that didn't exist even before the war. As it is, the US did a very surgical war destroying the Iraqi army, so there really wasn't much to repair. But making it a 10+ year long project just destroyed its popularity w/ the American people, who saw Kabul & Baghdad being built up while the infrastructure in New Orleans or Pittsburg was crumbling
You then had President Bush endorse the Sharansky Doctrine, which was the myth that simply unleashing democracy on a country would cure whatever ailed it. Except that that doctrine doesn't apply to Muslims, since democracy is incompatible w/ Islam, as per the Quran: everything is supposed to be in accordance w/ allah's wishes, & he doesn't share power w/ humans. And under Obama, that doctrine was extended in Tunisia, Egypt, Libya and threatened to make inroads into Bahrein, Yemen & Syria. In Bahrein, the Saudis did something akin to the Soviet invasion of Hungary in 1956: they invaded and curbed a Shi'ite uprising. At the same time, they tried to help the Sunnites of Syria pull off what they denied the Shi'ites of Bahrein. Unlike in Egypt or Libya where there were homogenious Sunnite populations and so a regime change didn't threaten the existence of any ethnic group (other than Egyptian Copts), in Syria, an ouster of the Baathist regime would have meant a massacre of Alawites, Christians, Druze & others - something that actually happened in Homs & Allepo early during the conflict. And hence the civil war in Syria today, and the rise of ISIS.
That's why Trump is right: the last thing we need is have 'roles' to play in places like Syria or Libya or any of these hellholes. Particularly when that implies nationbuilding, and trying to make Damascus like Denver or Benghazi like Boston. If Russia wants those places to be in their 'zone of influence', let them. We now have enough energy production not just for ourselves, but also for the East Europeans, so that Russians can't squeeze them. If Putin wants to create an empire on the Mediterranean, let him. We need not be the ones to own that.
Also, as Bobbied mentioned, thank you for your service
Re:bickering children by bobbied · 2017-07-13 07:50 · Score: 1

In foreign policy and in life, sometimes the "right" thing to do isn't 100% clear and sometimes even doing what seems to be the right thing brings you a bad outcome. You must make your best choice based on the right motives and move on. Hindsight is 20/20 and there is benefit of reviewing one's mistakes, however, if one is honest with themselves up front there will be no need of questioning your motives.
SO, what am I saying here? Simple... Yes, some of what the USA has done has not worked out well, we've made mistakes. However, in nearly ALL of these cases the *motives* behind our involvement are NOT nefarious but noble and we regret the results as much as you don't like them. But don't confuse a bad result with having bad motives. Bad motives do produce bad results, but good motives can also produce undesired/unintended results, so you cannot judge the motives by the results alone.

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"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101

Mongo understand by elrous0 · 2017-07-12 02:45 · Score: 4, Funny

Mongo have similar experience.

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SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.

Kremlin critisized... what a joke by volodymyrbiryuk · 2017-07-12 02:45 · Score: 1

Kremlin criticized the U.S. action as politically-motivated

Has there ever been a decision concerning the U.S.-Russian relations that was made based on facts and pragmatism rather than politics and ideology? On the other hand, after the recent events it's really hard to trust a company tha can not prove their independence from the Russian government.

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sudo rm -r -f --no-preserve-root /

Re:Kremlin critisized... what a joke by elrous0 · 2017-07-12 02:53 · Score: 4, Insightful

Is there any American company that can prove their independence from the U.S. government?

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SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
Re: Kremlin critisized... what a joke by Anonymous Coward · 2017-07-12 02:57 · Score: 2, Interesting

Russian and the US could get along, they actually have a lot in common. Hope to see it happen someday. The world would be a safer place.
Re:Kremlin critisized... what a joke by dunkelfalke · 2017-07-12 03:19 · Score: 1

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

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"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
Re: Kremlin critisized... what a joke by elrous0 · 2017-07-12 03:22 · Score: 5, Insightful

Just a few examples:
1) Both are actively fighting radical Islamic terrorist threats
2) Both are pretty conservative (in opposition to the ultra-liberal European norm)
3) Both are very religious and very Christian (in opposition to the increasingly atheist/agnostic European norm)
4) Both are very patriotic (in opposition to the cynical European norm)
5) Both are taking a fairly hard-line approach to immigration (as opposed to other European countries who seem to just be throwing their doors open to any middle-aged African claiming to be a sixteen-year-old Syrian refugee)
6) Both still have an active and functioning space program
7) Both are very pro-military--in spirit, funding, and practice.

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SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
Re:Kremlin critisized... what a joke by mhollis · 2017-07-12 03:39 · Score: 4, Insightful

I think you are asking the wrong question. Of course there does not exist a company that is completely free from the laws, regulations and requirements of the country in which it works (and that includes all countries in which they work for the multinationals).
What you are forgetting in your question is that, in the United States, CEOs are not murdered by the United States government if they oppose the chief executive, as has happened with Russians. You are forgetting that the United States is not an official kleptocracy (yet) where plutocratic friends of Vladimir Putin are free to steal from the country's resources at the expense of the taxpayers and that the government there is absolutely uninterested in transparency. You are forgetting that, in Russia, there are no checks and balances, the Judiciary is not independent of the central government, that the legislature (Duma) does not hold hearings to investigate the President or the Prime Minister and that the current President found a loophole in the country's constitution that allows him to hold onto power for much longer than his country's constitutional intent.
From this standpoint, a company that is located in the United States is unfettered by the politics of the day, as long as the company produces a valuable product and is a good corporate citizen. When our federal government asked for a "back door" (as a forinstance) into the Apple iPhone, Apple fought it. and, although the issue was declared moot, the government had to come up with a hack that would work on its own.
Were Apple's headquarters in Moscow or St. Petersburg, there would be no appeal to a court—they would have been forced to comply. And there might have been a sudden, unexplained death of the CEO were there any resistance.
So, my answer to your question is, yes. Companies are independent from our government here in the United States. They do not exist at the pleasure and tolerance of our Chief Executive as they do in Russia

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Gods don't kill people, people with gods kill people.
Re: Kremlin critisized... what a joke by Anonymous Coward · 2017-07-12 04:23 · Score: 1

#7 is the issue.
The largest militaries in the world naturally gravitate towards testing themselves against each other, because no one else is enough challenge to make a sport of it.
Re: Kremlin critisized... what a joke by dunkelfalke · 2017-07-12 08:20 · Score: 1

Even though I have a lot of sympathy for the Russians I honestly prefer the European norms. Better that than a bunch of religious nutters wielding way too much power.
Besides, USA has happily supported islamists for a long time and still does and the Russian space program is neither active nor functioning. Hasn't been for a long time which is a fucking shame because it used to be awesome.
But yes, Americans and Russians have indeed something in common - they are both very nationalistic and believe in might makes right.

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"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
Re: Kremlin critisized... what a joke by benjfowler · 2017-07-12 11:40 · Score: 1

Chekist talking point. Boring and stupid.
America, and Putin's Russia have NOTHING in common.
The West and Russia are strategic competitors. Cooperation to these Tartar/Mongolian scum, is a sign of weakness. We should not cooperate with barbarians. We contain them.
Re: Kremlin critisized... what a joke by benjfowler · 2017-07-12 11:41 · Score: 1

Cooperation is a waste of time, when our "partners" are barbarians, who take any form of cooperation and kindness as weakness.
Re: Kremlin critisized... what a joke by elrous0 · 2017-07-12 11:58 · Score: 1

If you think the Russians are barbarians, you really need mental help.

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SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
Re: Kremlin critisized... what a joke by benjfowler · 2017-07-12 12:07 · Score: 1

Hahaha, the conceit of the violent, drink-sodden moskal. He thinks he has culture. LOL.
Re:Kremlin critisized... what a joke by benjfowler · 2017-07-12 12:28 · Score: 1

"Politics and ideology" to you motherfucking moskal Putinists, means that we should abandon all principle, ignore all slights, insults and abuse from the Russian side, and treat the relationship as a series of transactions, where you lot may, or may not decide to stab us in the back when we're not looking.
I hope the Western governments rightly tell you lot to go and fuck yourselves.
As a Westerner, I am sick of Russian criminality and abuse. I am sick of my governments constantly turning the other cheek, while you continue to murder people, break the rules of the international order, spread propaganda and lies, and interfere in our politics.
Your kind make me sick.
Re: Kremlin critisized... what a joke by dunkelfalke · 2017-07-12 18:13 · Score: 1

Using a slightly updated launcher from 1953. How is that a functioning space program? Russia has tried to build a replacement for it and Proton for the last 25 years, that replacement had its first test launch in 2014 and its second test launch will happen next year.

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"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
Re:Kremlin critisized... what a joke by volodymyrbiryuk · 2017-07-12 21:50 · Score: 1

Geez, now take a deep breath and wipe the foam off your mouth. Where did I justify Putin's politics of agression or suggested that 'the west' should let Putin do whatever he wants? Putin is using similar arguments to invade the Ukraine as Bush Jr. did to invade Iraq. The pragmatic approach would have been to leave both countries alone.

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sudo rm -r -f --no-preserve-root /
Re:Kremlin critisized... what a joke by mhollis · 2017-07-13 01:56 · Score: 1

I am not in the habit of replying to anonymous cowards. You are a troll, sir and should be modded as such.
However, I am going to provide two links. The first is an article that includes the motion before the Court in the "All Writs Act" case. Now, you are claiming that this was just a PR stunt. I don't know what planet you live on, but hiring outside counsel to appeal such an order from the FBI is expensive, and there is absolutely no profit in it. So the document from Apple cost them money and did not produce iPhones, iPads or computers. Here is the article.
But that's not all. Were this just a publicity stunt, there would have been a quiet backroom agreement that Apple did complain in the "All Writs" case. If your hypothesis that this was a PR stunt were true, the agreement would have been made in secret, Apple would have provided the code and all would be well. The public relations issue would have been handled and everyone would think that Apple had won. But that is not what happened.
Instead, the Department of Justice filed a countermotion. And you can read it here.
So your hypothesis is dead wrong, Anonymous Coward-Troll. So you can believe whatever you want, but beliefs are not facts.

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Gods don't kill people, people with gods kill people.

They should fucking blame Putin then. by Maritz · 2017-07-12 02:46 · Score: 5, Interesting

Kaspersky should realise that their word that they aren't acting on behalf of the Russian government isn't worth shit. Putin is all fucking powerful in Russia and there is no rule of law there. So when they say they aren't at the behest of Russian intelligence, nobody fucking believes them.

Grow some balls and take back your kleptocracy from Dear Leader Putin and then maybe someone will believe you when you say you aren't a vehicle for Russian government malware.

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I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.

Re:They should fucking blame Putin then. by amiga3D · 2017-07-12 02:54 · Score: 3, Insightful

Putin is certainly corrupt but he's not all powerful even in Russia. There are other oligarchs besides him in that country. I'm sure that Kaspersky Labs does things for the Russian Intel agencies. Just like Microsoft does things for the NSA in this country.
Re:They should fucking blame Putin then. by Anonymous Coward · 2017-07-12 02:54 · Score: 5, Insightful

Cisco should realize that their word that they aren't acting on behalf of the American government isn't worth shit. The NSA is all fucking powerful in America and there is no rule of law there. So when they say they aren't at the behest of American intelligence, nobody fucking believes them.
Grow some balls and take back your democracy and rule of law and then maybe someone will believe you when you say you aren't a vehicle for American government surveillance.
Re:They should fucking blame Putin then. by ooloorie · 2017-07-12 03:21 · Score: 1

Kaspersky should realise that their word that they aren't acting on behalf of the Russian government isn't worth shit.
Ditto for Microsoft, Google, Facebook, Apple, and all the other American companies vis-a-vis the US government.
Or German companies vis-a-vis the German government.
Or British companies vis-a-vis the British government.
Or French companies vis-a-vis the French government.
Welcome to reality.
Re:They should fucking blame Putin then. by chispito · 2017-07-12 03:36 · Score: 4, Insightful

Kaspersky should realise that their word that they aren't acting on behalf of the Russian government isn't worth shit.
Ditto for Microsoft, Google, Facebook, Apple, and all the other American companies vis-a-vis the US government.
Or German companies vis-a-vis the German government.
Or British companies vis-a-vis the British government.
Or French companies vis-a-vis the French government.
Welcome to reality.
The difference is that Russia is uniquely willing both to use malicious hacking as a first option and to apply unconventional pressure on its people. "What's that Eugene, you don't want to backdoor your software for us? Okay, well, we figured there was no harm in asking. By the way, doesn't your mother live near here? I wonder if we should stop by her place for a visit."

So we know of all these tools the US has had at its disposal, but other than maybe Stuxnet and a few others, it's hard to pinpoint real world fallout from their use. You can't swing a dead cat in this world without hitting a server that "patriotic Russian hackers" have compromised.

--
The Daddy casts sleep on the Baby. The Baby resists!
Re:They should fucking blame Putin then. by ooloorie · 2017-07-12 04:11 · Score: 1

The way this works in the US is:

"What's that Mr. Jones, you don't want to backdoor your software for us? Okay, well, we figured there was no harm in asking. By the way, weren't there some allegations of sexual harassment at your company? Are you certain your taxes are above board? And you look a little monopolistic to me. Maybe we should cancel your government contracts, have you audited by the IRS, have the FTC start an investigation, tie you up in court for a few years, and give you massively bad press."
The police arrests that inevitably follow easily involve the use of force, and the killing of a few family pets. Soon, the FCC and "net neutrality" will provide an additional lever to force ISPs to comply with government demands for access and espionage.

So we know of all these tools the US has had at its disposal, but other than maybe Stuxnet and a few others, it's hard to pinpoint real world fallout from their use.
Oh, deary, you think that because US press doesn't talk much about US hacking it doesn't happen?Hate to break it to you, but our European "allies" assume that everything that comes from the US is infested by US government espionage, foremost Google and Facebook.

You can't swing a dead cat in this world without hitting a server that "patriotic Russian hackers" have compromised.
It's idiotic to blame all hacking by Russians on the Russian government. Many of those people really just do it for personal profit.
Re:They should fucking blame Putin then. by chispito · 2017-07-12 04:22 · Score: 1

The way this works in the US is:...
Yes, and one country's method results in jail time if you decide to become a conscientious objector while the other results in a slow painful death from radiation poison. By all means, fight your country's injustices, but don't try to morally equate them.

It's idiotic to blame all hacking by Russians on the Russian government. Many of those people really just do it for personal profit.
I'm not talking about how many "cyber" criminals reside in Russia, I'm talking about the very obvious state-sponsored groups.

--
The Daddy casts sleep on the Baby. The Baby resists!
Re:They should fucking blame Putin then. by chispito · 2017-07-12 04:25 · Score: 1

I feel dumb, I meant to say if you decide to peacefully protest your country, versus "conscientious objector" which means refuse compulsory military service.

--
The Daddy casts sleep on the Baby. The Baby resists!
Re:They should fucking blame Putin then. by Gravis+Zero · 2017-07-12 05:18 · Score: 1

Grow some balls and take back your kleptocracy from Dear Leader Putin and then maybe someone will believe you when you say you aren't a vehicle for Russian government malware.
Easy to say, difficult to do. For example, the US also has an oligarchy problem and while you are free than in Russia, you are quite incapable of causing actual change. If you are advocating for violence than I would point out that you should take your own advice knowing that you will most certainly end up dead.

--
Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
Re:They should fucking blame Putin then. by ooloorie · 2017-07-12 05:37 · Score: 2

Yes, and one country's method results in jail time if you decide to become a conscientious objector while the other results in a slow painful death [theguardian.com] from radiation poison. By all means, fight your country's injustices, but don't try to morally equate them.
Stop putting up strawmen; I didn't "morally equate" anything. I simply made it clear that the US government has effective means of forcing companies to comply with the demands of its spy agencies. And if you think that the US (or France or the UK) limit themselves to jailtime, you're a naive fool. Governments across the globe shoot, bomb, poison, and strangle people who get in their way, and that includes the governments of so-called "liberal democracies". Obama and Clinton were masters of the drone strike.

I'm not talking about how many "cyber" criminals reside in Russia, I'm talking about the very obvious state-sponsored groups.
You mean like "state sponsored" (i.e., NSA, CIA financed) contractors and startups in the US?
Re:They should fucking blame Putin then. by Prien715 · 2017-07-12 06:02 · Score: 3, Insightful

What about Cisco?
Mother Russia thanks you for your service.

--
-- Political fascism requires a Fuhrer.
Re:They should fucking blame Putin then. by thegarbz · 2017-07-12 06:29 · Score: 1

So your advice is "grow some balls and burn bridges with one of your biggest customers with the hope that you will get taken off the banned vendor list by some other customer"?
That has to be the dumbest advice I've seen on slashdot.
Re:They should fucking blame Putin then. by thegarbz · 2017-07-12 06:30 · Score: 1

The difference is that Russia is uniquely willing both to use malicious hacking as a first option and to apply unconventional pressure on its people.
Huh? That's a difference? Are you a time traveler that somehow skipped the past 2 years?
Re:They should fucking blame Putin then. by nuckfuts · 2017-07-12 07:34 · Score: 1

Kaspersky should realise that their word... isn't worth shit.
It would seem they're offering more than just "their word". They agreed to turn over their source code.
Re:They should fucking blame Putin then. by amiga3D · 2017-07-12 07:41 · Score: 1

The only real difference is that our oligarchs have to dance around the Constitution. It limits their ability to rule with absolute power as they have to use willing pawns in Congress and the White House and twist the rules as much as they can.
Re:They should fucking blame Putin then. by Guybrush_T · 2017-07-12 09:03 · Score: 1

Terribly said, but true. Governments cannot afford to rely on software coming from the opposite camp. Kaspersky may be independent today, but we don't know about tomorrow. The US cannot take that risk.
Just like Russia shouldn't take the risk to rely on any US-based company's software. That's not even hostile, EU also wants its independence in terms of software and hardware, Japan does the same, China does the same ... that's just obvious strategy.
Re:They should fucking blame Putin then. by Maritz · 2017-07-12 21:11 · Score: 1

Oh look, a stupid twat. The NSA is subject to oversight from courts. Putin is a fucking dictator, and does whatever the fuck he wants. There is rule of law in the USA, there is NO rule of law in Russia. The fact that you don't see that either makes you a Russian prick in denial, or a stupid Trumper.

--
I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
Re:They should fucking blame Putin then. by Anonymous Coward · 2017-07-13 08:27 · Score: 1

The NSA is subject to oversight from courts
The materials released by Ed Snowden show the NSA was willing and able to engage in unlawful activities, so I would say this "oversight from courts" is so weak as to be ineffective.

As was said, by Chris+Mattern · 2017-07-12 02:57 · Score: 1

"Kaspersky only pawn in game of life"

Welcome to the big time ... by perpenso · 2017-07-12 03:10 · Score: 1

A pawn in geopolitical games? Welcome to the big time, the world of large successful corporations. You have arrived. ;-)

I hope this doesn't escalate by AlanObject · 2017-07-12 03:11 · Score: 2

If they outlaw Jetbrains then only outlaws will have Jetbrains.

And I will be in trouble because Netbeans and Eclipse just doesn't cut it for me anymore.

Could there be a Kremlin back-door or trojan in Kaspersky anti-virus? I don't think so but unfortunately it is too easy to imagine. And it might even be something Putin is not aware of.

Re:I hope this doesn't escalate by bongey · 2017-07-12 07:21 · Score: 2

Jetbrains is banned in every classified working area I have been to.
Re:I hope this doesn't escalate by AlanObject · 2017-07-12 09:28 · Score: 1

That is amazing. I don't have a security clearance so I wouldn't have known that.
It isn't clear to me what the concern is. Jetbrains tools are complex enough to hide something in but they are just honking big Java programs pretty easy to sandbox if you must.
Is the Linux kernel also banned? I understand there is a lot of Russian code there, specifically the networking part.
Re: I hope this doesn't escalate by KGIII · 2017-07-12 16:49 · Score: 1

No, but 'we' also review and submit code, as well as work to secure it. SELinux is a good example.

--
"So long and thanks for all the fish."

Kaspersky is irrelevant... by drew_92123 · 2017-07-12 03:14 · Score: 1

While the product they make isn't the worst I've seen, far from it in fact, they're still largely irrelevant in the free antivirus space these days... in large part due to Microsoft and the built in protection they now offer as part of windows. And while nothing is perfect, I've found Defender to be fast and reliable in recent years. Any remaining market that Kaspersky might have a chance in is pretty diluted by all the other options available out there... Frankly I'm kind of surprised they're still around...

but... by ooloorie · 2017-07-12 03:18 · Score: 3, Funny

Will they get sacrificed or promoted to a queen?

Team Trump is a liar by Anonymous Coward · 2017-07-12 03:20 · Score: 1, Informative

In case you forget, Kaspersky labs man was arrested by Putin on espionage charges. He was likely a USA spy. He fitted the profile of the 'ex FSB men' in the Trump pee memos.

He was arrested 6 DAYS AFTER TRUMP GOT HOLD OF THE UNREDACTED PEE MEMO.

So 6 days after Trump got hold of the pee memo, naming the names of the informants confirming the pee memo contents, at least 2 of these people got arrested by Putin. One of them from Kaspersky labs.

https://arstechnica.com/security/2017/01/kaspersky-labs-top-investigator-reportedly-arrested-in-treason-probe/

So it's absolutely obvious why Trump is trying to deflect attention away from his latest Russia email links by attacking Kaspersky.

Trump did a deal with a foreign government to hack his own country to get elected. It's time Republicans remember they are also Americans.

Re:Team Trump is a liar by Archangel+Michael · 2017-07-12 04:35 · Score: 3, Insightful

The Pee Memos and the Russian Attorney are linked to the same Democratic Party black ops company, FusionGPS.
https://www.washingtonpost.com...
Not only that, but HRC campaign colluded with Ukrainian Government against Trump

A veteran DNC operative who previously worked in the Clinton White House, Alexandra Chalupa, worked with Ukrainian government officials and journalists from both Ukraine and America to dig up Russia-related opposition research on Trump and Manafort. She also shared her anti-Trump research with both the DNC and the Clinton campaign, according to the Politico report.
Both R and D are doing whatever it takes to win an election. No story here, unless you're equally outraged at "collusion" between Hillary and Ukraine, this is a nothing story.
The problem is, both sides are in deep, but we only hear about Trump.

--
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.

"has become" by retchdog · 2017-07-12 03:20 · Score: 1

LOL, yeah, that's one way to put it. acting as an intermediary between russian intelligence and the business world has been almost their entire business model for the past decade, so their passive voice is a bit disingenuous now.

"i am shocked, shocked!, to find gambling in this establishment."

--
"They were pure niggers." – Noam Chomsky

Doesn't matter - it's free by DrYak · 2017-07-12 03:22 · Score: 1

ClamAV isnt on the list either

On the other hand, you don't need to buy ClamAV to be able to use it.
(Software is opensource, databases are freely available).

So it doesn't matter.

Whereas now, as a consequence of removing Kaspersky lab from the official list,
government entity interested in using it need to buy their own copies.

(That in addition of all the "removed because russian ties" negative publicity).

--
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]

Double proof by Anonymous Coward · 2017-07-12 03:42 · Score: 1

" it's really hard to trust a company tha can not prove their independence from the Russian government."

Double proof:
1. Putin of Russia had one of them arrested/disappeared for treason. Ruslan Stoyanov.
2. Trump of Russia had their company products banned from use.

Look, they hire a few ex FSB men, one of them secretly worked for the US as an intel source. He confirmed elements of Trumps older Russia visit from when he was in the FSB. Trump got power, Jan 20th, demanded the pee memos, and January 26th, two people were arrested by Putin on espionage charges including the exFSB man working at Kaspersky.

So, the defenders of Trump invite Kaspersky guys over for testimony, and some of that testimony we don't get to see. Presumably the good guys wanted to ask about the arrest. And Trump's defenders flip the arrest around: Kaspersky had had ex Russian FSB men working for them, and they ignore the arrests for treason, since that suggests that man was also working as a trusted CIA source.

And Trump joins in with this ban, after the meeting with the Russian Lawyer promised Russian government help in his election, he needs a distraction.

Ultimately Putin and Russia are a rogue state, and USA was attacked, and currently does not defend itself because it has a traitor in the command seat. There are elements that are trying to cover for him, for their partisan reasons, and this is part of that.

Likely Kaspersky are just a pawn here, sacrified for distraction.

Putin jails & kills people who don't follow or by bit+trollent · 2017-07-12 04:01 · Score: 2, Insightful

Russian oligarchs that don't follow Putin's orders end up dead and in jail.

That's the difference between Russia and the USA. We don't kill our cranky billionaires, or jail them on phony charges.

The Trump crime family broke alot of laws in their treasonous collusion with Russia's attack on our country, but we still let him run for president and "win"

Opposition figures in Russia are imprisoned and bankrupted by Vladimir Putin who has even less regard for the rule of law that his puppet Donald Trump. Once we kick that traitor out of office, America's rule of law will once again be a beacon to the free world.

It's not hard to understand the difference between Russia and the US, but if you can play the false equivalence game that equates a boring centrist (Hillary) to a right wing traitor (Trump) then I guess you are gullible enough believe any false equivalence.

Re:Hell of a time to be Russian, or related to one by bobbied · 2017-07-12 04:04 · Score: 1

History shows that McCarthy was seeing "Russians" around every corner... Treason in any interaction with a "Russian" real or not... McCarthyism is the practice of making accusations of subversion or treason without proper regard for evidence.(See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... )

What has been the #1 news story for the last 9 months? How's this any different?

--
"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101

Well they should just move to India by future+assassin · 2017-07-12 05:05 · Score: 1

problem solved.

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by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*

Re:Ukraine by Marful · 2017-07-12 05:39 · Score: 4, Informative

Moscow didn't do anything, and the only reason Russia rolled into Crimea was after Ukraine adapted a law making Ukrainian the sole official language, thereby making life potentially difficult for Russian speaking Ukrainians.

Didn't do anything? LOL.

Other than sending troops, weapons and equipment, passing a vote to annex... of course, nothing. Also, you might want to review your understanding of the time line.

Re:Ukraine by John.Banister · 2017-07-12 06:24 · Score: 3, Insightful

Sure, and Moscow is legitimately Mongolian, because they owned it once, and then later they didn't.

Re:Hell of a time to be Russian, or related to one by bit+trollent · 2017-07-12 06:52 · Score: 1

The difference is that Donald Trump and the Trump crime family have actually committed treason, colluding with a hostile foreign government.

I don't have any problem with Russian people, but Russia's government is currently attacking my country's democracy, and I am too patriotic to let that slide.

I know Donald Trump colludes with Putin's crime spree, but not all Americans are traitors like the Trump crime family.

After all the denials or Russia's attack on our country Donald Trump Jr just released an email showing him colluding with Russia's attack on our country. That email is just the tip of a treasonous ice berg.

Aside from the traitors themselves, it's important recognize the turncoats who look the other way. They are traitors too, because as a democracy we are all responsible for informing ourselves and defeating traitors, even if we otherwise agree with their views.

Re:Hell of a time to be Russian, or related to one by bobbied · 2017-07-12 07:20 · Score: 2

The difference is that Donald Trump and the Trump crime family have actually committed treason, colluding with a hostile foreign government.

I'm going to stop you right there. This assertion has NO proof. Not to mention that Treason has a constitutional definition (Article 3, section 3).. Plus, what does "colluding" look like and how's THAT a crime? And in what way is a hostile foreign government describe Russia?

Now I suppose that it is theoretically possible that your confident assertion of collusion turns out to be true, the problem you have is up to this point, there has been zero evidence of this narrative. The Russians were trying to mess with the election (mostly unsuccessfully), but there are zero actual facts that provides a hard link with coordination with Trump or his campaign. Muller is looking, until he comes up with something, your assertion is premature (what's more it's dangerous should Muller not find what you think he will.)

Treason has a specific definition in the Constitution. We are NOT at war with Russia. In fact, we have treaties with them, participate in the UN with them and are not in open military conflict with them either during the campaign or up though today. We are not on great terms, to be sure, but this is NOT war. If there is no open conflict, there can be no treason. "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court." How is what you think Trump or his campaign actually did Treason? We where NOT in open conflict with Russia and Trump and his associates obviously didn't "wage war" (as in take up arms) or "give aid and comfort" (Harbor those who where or aid in committing hostile acts on the USA)

What Trump Jr. did was stupid, but it wasn't illegal or treason. Nothing changed hands, no information, nothing, in that meeting. Both Trump Jr. AND the lawyer who where there agree on this. You are choosing to not believe what they claim, but have zero evidence they are lying. So what do you have?

--
"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101

Re:Putin jails & kills people who don't follow by amiga3D · 2017-07-12 07:45 · Score: 1

You know, I'm still waiting to see evidence of this collusion you speak of. So far, the best they've come up with in the last 8 months of singing that song is Don Jr. meeting a lawyer. That's it. Nothing else. I'm starting to think it might be time for them to come up with a new attack vector. Unless they bring some kind of indictment in the next 6 months or so, continuing this "Russia" story will destroy democrats in the midterms. Of course, if they can get an indictment, that puts the Republicans in a pickle. Should be interesting.

Re:Putin jails & kills people who don't follow by dunkelfalke · 2017-07-12 08:03 · Score: 1

The Trump crime family broke alot of laws in their treasonous collusion with Russia's attack on our country, but we still let him run for president and "win"

Maybe you should actually start jailing crooks instead of making them presidents again and again.

--
"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap

Re:Hell of a time to be Russian, or related to one by bobbied · 2017-07-12 08:18 · Score: 2

You continue to make confident assertions of things for which you have zero real evidence. There is a whole lot of supposition and assumptions, but no actual evidence that Trump and Russia acted together and lots of people have been looking at this under a microscope for MONTHS (if not over a year if you believe Comey's testimony that HE started looking back in early 2016). We've had all sorts of stuff coming out, leaks of all kinds and a lots of pontificating by the democrats about how "THIS new revelation is the smoking gun" over and over but not one of them have actually worked out. We've had talk of impeachment, criminal collusion, obstruction. now treason, and no proof of any of it has surfaced.

So what's going on? This whole narrative of Trump and the Russians is made up and forwarded by those who have political axes to grind. It's NOT about the truth or even stopping law breaking, but about political power and doing damage to Trump. It's the only way the democrats have left to try and forward their agenda, forward their cause though the "Resist" movement, being obstructionist and the like. This is about politics, not about Trump or what he actually did or didn't do.

--
"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101

Re:Putin jails & kills people who don't follow by amiga3D · 2017-07-12 08:33 · Score: 1

What I saw in Don Jr's emails and his interview wasn't collusion. Only political motivation would say so, no one serious has said more than "he might have stepped over the line." Given what Hilliary walked off on I think the bar is a little higher than you think for an indictment. I know for a fact what she did would have sent me to a long sentence in Ft. Leavenworth prison if I had done it while in the Air Force. But we shall see. My money is that it's yet another "nothing burger." ;)

Re:Ukraine by Darinbob · 2017-07-12 10:02 · Score: 1, Insightful

This is B.S. A gift is a gift first off, you can't just turn around and say "oops, I didn't realize the gift I gave you was worth so much!" Second, it is primarily Russian because of Russian military bases. Historically it has not been a Russian region, the Tatars have a stronger claim than either Russia or Ukraine, although they were forcibly removed by USSR after WWII ended.

Russia rolled into Ukraine against all international laws and norms. It's exactly what Hitler did in the Sudatenland, to "protect" a German speaking region. Except that ironically Russia was the one accusing Ukraine of being full of nazis (it's their go-to insult). The election in the Crimea was pure bullshit and had no legitimacy.

Russia really moved in because the Ukraine got rid of it's pro-Putin president and got a pro-western president. Putin hated the Orange revolution as he feels all former Russian or Soviet regions belong to him, and he treats it as an insult when they reject their former overlords.

The US doesn't drop this because Ukraine is our ally, and Russia is not.

Re:Not remotely true by MightyMartian · 2017-07-12 10:05 · Score: 3, Interesting

At least from the Russian perspective, the end of any kind of detente came with the bombing of Serbia. At the time, Russia, broken and incapable of any kind of force projection, was forced to abandon a policy that it had essentially held for centuries; that of being the protector of the Slavic peoples. Couple this with NATO enlargement, where a number of former Warsaw Pact countries, understandably in my view, joined up, and then began entering the EU, you can see where they came to believe that the West was out to permanently castrate Russia. This is an understandable sentiment as well.

That all being said, Russia has been a right pain in the ass to the West for a few centuries now, and there's never been a great deal of trust on either side. Further, it's hard to see how there can be any trust so long as Putin and the Oligarchs are basically running the country as their personal piggy bank, and where the infant organs of a democratic state have been so quickly undermined. When they get caught interfering with multiple Western elections with the clear intent to either destabilize or get Russia-friendly candidates elected to high office, I'd say meaningful rapprochement is a long way off. Even in the US, where Trump does seem far more Kremlin-friendly than virtually any predecessor, Congress has made it awfully clear that it will not remove sanctions, and indeed would like to see even more sanctions.

--
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.

Re:Ukraine by MightyMartian · 2017-07-12 10:09 · Score: 1

Russia was party to an agreement guaranteeing Ukraine's territorial integrity in exchange for Ukraine giving up its share of the Soviet nuclear arsenal. Russia went back on that agreement, and apart from showing the duplicitous nature of the Kremlin, it also ably demonstrates that once you have nukes, never give them up, because they remain the most singularly effective way of guaranteeing territorial integrity.

As how Crimea became part of Ukraine, well is that any different than how Poland and other neighboring countries were granted pieces of Germany after WWI? Would you go on record stating that you think the invasions of Poland and Czechoslovakia were justified?

--
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.

Re:Ukraine by benjfowler · 2017-07-12 11:37 · Score: 1

It wouldn't be the first time those fucking barbarians have broken a serious promise. They REALLY screwed the pooch by stabbing Ukraine in the back wrt their nuclear arsenal -- they've just taught the world that if you're stupid enough to give up your nukes, you're going to get fucked over by your neighbours.

Re:Hell of a time to be Russian, or related to one by benjfowler · 2017-07-12 11:48 · Score: 1

Yep!!

The full story about Joe McCarthy is classified, but I've seen speculation that Joe McCarthy was a Soviet asset, who persecuted Americans in order to create the notion of "McCarthyism" -- which makes it harder to challenge Russian malfeasance in the public sphere.

Re:Hell of a time to be Russian, or related to one by benjfowler · 2017-07-12 11:49 · Score: 1

Well, it turns out the Russians are our enemies right now. Didn't you get the memo?

Re:it's not a geopolitical game.... by benjfowler · 2017-07-12 11:53 · Score: 1

The Putinbots and the quislings will keep peddling all these old, tired bullshit Putinist talking points ("there is no proof", we are not enemies with Russia, we should cooperate ('i.e. bend over for the Putinist).

These bastards will KEEP doing it right up to a few seconds before the conflict turns kinetic.

Re:All this because of Bloomberg by benjfowler · 2017-07-12 11:54 · Score: 1

Not rumours. We are at war. The Russians know it. The West are just waking up to the fact that Russia has been waking a war of aggression against us for years, and have infiltrated our government.

Re:Hell of a time to be Russian, or related to one by bobbied · 2017-07-12 12:14 · Score: 2

It's Classified eh? LOL Right, why haven't the details been leaked then? We've had leaks of classified information though out this whole dang process so being classified doesn't seem to be a valid reason we don't know it... My guess is there is nothing to leak... But hey, what can I say? I'm not cleared to see this stuff, nor are you (I assume) so we are not resolving this debate here. I mean the Flynn conversation with the Russians getting exposed was from classified information and we found out about that, Obviously somebody doesn't mind leaking classified stuff.... Yet we don't yet have the incriminating details because they are classified? You are kidding...

But if you want to construct some alternate reality where because it's classified it's somehow not commonly known... Be my gest... I don't' believe that and YOU still have zero proof.

--
"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101

Re:Hell of a time to be Russian, or related to one by bobbied · 2017-07-12 12:16 · Score: 2

No, what memo? LOL.. Oh you mean the DNC talking points about why Hillary lost the election memo... No, I didn't get a copy, I'm not on their mailing list and I don't watch MSMBC or CNN... My bad..

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"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101

Re:Ukraine by Xest · 2017-07-12 18:56 · Score: 2

That was really just the point that people woke up to Russia's aggression and the fact it had never really let the Cold War die off.

In 1999 when he was inaugrated he declared the collapse of the Soviet Union as the biggest tragedy of the 20th Century (bigger than Nazi death camps), by 2004 he'd already ordered the poisoning of Viktor Yanukovych's closest opponent Viktor Yushchenko during the election campaign to try and hand Ukraine to Yanukovych way back then. It backfired and Yanukovych still lost until with further Russian meddling he succeeded in 2010 before fleeing in the 2014 revolution against Russian meddling. In 2006 he also poisoned Alexander Litvinenko in London.

But Russia also never left places like Moldova, Georgia's disputed territories, and Armenia, and they invaded Georgia proper in 2008 to try and enforce Russian control. They kept military bases in other places, but unlike in the aforementioned states, not so much as to control the nation politically but much more in the same way the US has bases in places like Germany, and Japan - i.e. merely as relatively benign forward stations.

For Russia the Cold War never really ended, it merely took a brief hiatus under Yeltsin. The whole invasion and annexation of Crimea and invasion of South Eastern Ukraine and subsequent downing of MH17 was really just the first time most average people in the West woke up to the fact that the Russians have still been fighting the war for the last 20 years whilst we've been asleep oblivious to it - even now some people think the whole Russian support for Trump thing is a conspiracy theory and all about partisan politics, when it goes much farther and much deeper - Putin's support extends to UKIP and Brexit (via Arron Banks), support for Le Penn, support for AfD, Golden Dawn, Jobbik and many other far right parties across Europe. Thankfully mainland Europe has managed to stem the tide, whilst Britain and America are still too busy playing party politics to realise the real enemy has seriously fucked them.

Even if you support Trump, even if you support Brexit, the reality is that Russia has still acted to neuter Britain and the US on the world stage with some success. If we still want these things when Russian propaganda isn't spinning us a lie through companies like Cambridge Analytica, then fine. But what's clear is that we've made political choices that have damaged us economically and/or politically because of money and influence from a nation that wants to see us fall - no one can deny Brexit is costing Britain dear with wages and productivity down, and our currency in tatters whilst we remain a net importer costing us dear. No one can deny that America is diminished on the world stage as Trump is sidelined into irrelevance over things like the Paris agreement. This is exactly what Putin has wanted to achieve since the moment he took power, and we walked blindly into it.

Re:Not remotely true by Xest · 2017-07-12 19:07 · Score: 3, Interesting

NATO made overtures to let Russia also join NATO at the same time other ex-Warsaw Pact members were joining in large part to try and avoid precisely the sort of thing that happened in Ukraine and to try and achieve a sweeping military stabilisation stretching across the entire Northern Hemisphere.

The problem is a majority of Russians have a dictatorship mentality - they don't do things by mutual agreement, they believe in a strong leadership, which is why they're constantly led by defacto dictators. This unfortunately extends into their geopolitical world view too, in that they could never join NATO because the concept of being in an organisation as an equal is alien to them - to them they should be the grand dictator of the organisation This is also why Putin so hates the EU - he'd join it, if he could be wholly in charge of it, but whilst he sees mutual cooperation between 28 of his closest neighbours, he sees that as an affront to everything the Russian mindset stands for, he sees that as weakness, and so when it works, when the EU becomes the largest single economic area in the world right on his doorstep he despises that and will stop at nothing to try and destroy it and impose his idea of a Russian led Eurasian Economic Union instead.

This is why he poses for what seem like ridiculous photos to us - to the Russian psyche it's exactly what a leader should be, not just to his own country, but to the whole world. Whilst the rest of Europe grew up, Russia fenced itself off behind a wall and kept itself stuck inside the 15th - 19th century European Empire mindset. Probably the only real solution to the Russian problem is to allow them to go bankrupt again with sanctions and so forth, but this time, don't let them get back up - make sure the territory fractures. More modern forward thinking areas like St Petersburg would likely become pro-EU independent territories, whilst the backward areas could be left to fester. Unfortunately, there's then the nuclear question, but it's clear you can't work with Russia as an equal until Russia has it's own enlightenment, because it's just not in their national psyche.

Re:Ukraine by unixisc · 2017-07-19 15:44 · Score: 2

Ukraine keeping its nukes wouldn't have done a thing for it: the controls remained in Moscow. It wasn't like the Ukrainians & Kazakhs - the 2 republics aside from Russia that had nukes - were gonna get the codes and own the ones in their territory. That's why Leonid Kravchuk wanted those nukes gone - not b'cos he was a pacifist, but b'cos there were weapons in his country that were not in his contol

Re:Ukraine by unixisc · 2017-07-19 15:56 · Score: 2

On the Tatar claims, wrong! The Tatars were conquerors of that territory in the Middle Ages, and were ousted by the Tsarist Russians. And w/ good reason: aside from being vassals of the Ottoman Turks, they also conducted several invasions of Russia, including burning down Moscow on one occasion. Crimea became a part of Tsarist Russia in 1783. Prior to that, it was first part of the Russian/Byzantine empires, and later, the Golden Horde. The Crimean Tatar Khanate started in 1441.

Russia moved in not b'cos of the ouster of Yanukovich, but b'cos Kyiv had just passed a law making Ukrainian the sole official language. Russia decided that it needed to preserve the rights of the ethnic Russians, and so invaded Crimea and held a referandum. One can argue about its legitimacy, but those were the events in question. Besides, when the Soviet Union came apart, there was an agreement b/w Kyiv & Moscow on the ownership in Sevastopol and the Crimea, and that agreement was broken after Yanukovich was ousted. That was what provoked the Russian occupation.

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